[3.5] Fixing the Reaping Mauler

[Thurbane]

So...it's pretty universally agreed that Reaping Mauler is pretty terrible at what it is supposed to do.

If you were going to overhaul that class, what would you change? I assume first and foremost is losing Clever Wrestling as a req (or modifying the feat itself)?

Maybe also lowering the skill reqs so that classes like Fighter and Barbarian can enter at ECL 6 without jumping through hoops?

Upping it to 4 skill points/level can't hurt, either (along with an expanded skill list, perhaps).

Cheers - T

[eggynack]

You need to have the class actually do something. As is, you get improved grapple, which you should probably have already anyway if you're a grappling character, mobility, which is pretty mediocre and has nothing to do with grappling, adept wrestling, which is grappling positive but marginal, counter grapple, which can free you from a grapple, which is totally what you want to do when your character is all about grappling, sleeper lock, which only works when you've completely won the grapple fight, and devastating grapple, which is even more that. What are you really getting here that makes you a skilled grappler? You need stuff that makes you better at getting into a grapple, not better at getting out of one, and your effects need to start happening right when you're in grappling mode, not when you've been grappling for several rounds and have likely got the prime utility out of the maneuver.

Clever wrestling is an obvious problem, but the reality of the class is that the prerequisite only makes a bad class horrible, rather than a decent class bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

eggynack pretty much as the right of it. A grappling class, methinks, should grant:

Fast Grab
Constrict, or some similar damage boost
The ability to grapple larger creatures
The ability to foil Escape Artist, teleports, Freedom of Movement, and other hard counters to grapple.
The ability to do really terrible things once you've grappled someone. Bonus points for being able to grapple a dude, then hit another dude with previously said dude.

[Necroticplague]

Remove the idiotic "when in light armor or not wearing armor...." and "wis-based" parts of the class. You're flat-footed to most when grappling, so you should be in the heaviest armor you can get to compensate. And grapplers are MAD enough without adding a mental stat to the mix. if you're gonna have DCs, make them STR based (since grappling is based on STR). Change the Prereq from Clever Wrestling to Scorpion's Grasp. Likewise, Mobility is for people who move around, not who stand wrestling in one spot. should be swapped out for something. If you plan on grappling, you've probably already picked up Improved Grapple, so having a "if you have this, pick another feat" should be in there.

Actually, come to think of it, it fails on so many levels, you basically have to re-write it. I'd probably give them some kind of called-shot like system where they can take penalties to grapple checks to inflict status conditions, in addition to the normal damage from grappling. Maybe give them Constrict with their Unarmed Strike.

[The Glyphstone]

It needs to be able to Reap and/or Maul people it fights.

[Dagroth]

Clever Wrestling should be a bonus no matter how big (or small) you are. A +2 bonus for every size category larger your opponent is. It should apply to all grapple checks, not just escaping or resisting a grapple. Yes, I want to see a Pixie successfully grappling a Hill Giant!

A Reaping Mauler should do +1d6 damage every odd numbered level every time he attacks someone he's in a grapple with. This should be precision damage, and not work against creatures that precision damage doesn't work against.

A Reaping Mauler should add their class level to all grapple checks.

[PaucaTerrorem]

A Reaping Mauler should add their class level to all grapple checks.

Eh, I'd go 1/2 character level but everything else you say works for me.

[Dagroth]

Eh, I'd go 1/2 character level but everything else you say works for me.

Okay, rather than that (which would be +10 at level 20). How about +2 to grapple checks per level of Reaping Mauler?

Also, +1 Dodge bonus to AC per level against the person you're grappling with. Making it harder for them to stab/punch/whatever you while grappling.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Okay, rather than that (which would be +10 at level 20). How about +2 to grapple checks per level of Reaping Mauler?

Also, +1 Dodge bonus to AC per level against the person you're grappling with. Making it harder for them to stab/punch/whatever you while grappling.

Works for me. I like giving bonuses to classes that don't do what they should do.

[daremetoidareyo]

1. You need to be able to nullify freedom of movement.
2. You should probably have wrestling maneuvers that proc savingthrows from enemies you grapple.
3. Clever wrestling should be a different and better feat.
4. Get rid of mobility as a prerequisite.
5. You should to be able to use escape artist for other effects, (use it to replace tumble, jump, and climb checks)
6. Need to manage size disparities well. If you as a medium sized wrestling specialist grapple a huge dinosaur, you should have a shot at winning.
7. I don't know, msybe the ability to maul things.
8. Ability to use grapple opponent as both cover and a shield
9. Any sort of non combat utility at all would be nice, even if it's just a 1.5 times modifier to strength checks to break things.

[Dagroth]

1. You need to be able to nullify freedom of movement.
2. You should probably have wrestling maneuvers that proc savingthrows from enemies you grapple.
3. Clever wrestling should be a different and better feat.
4. Get rid of mobility as a prerequisite.
5. You should to be able to use escape artist for other effects, (use it to replace tumble, jump, and climb checks)
6. Need to manage size disparities well. If you as a medium sized wrestling specialist grapple a huge dinosaur, you should have a shot at winning.
7. I don't know, msybe the ability to maul things.
8. Ability to use grapple opponent as both cover and a shield
9. Any sort of non combat utility at all would be nice, even if it's just a 1.5 times modifier to strength checks to break things.

I kinda fixed 2 & 6 at the same time... and giving +2 per RM level to grapples also seriously helps #6.
Fixed #7 with adding precision damage.

To fix #8... Attacking in to a grapple gives a 50-50 chance to attack the wrong person. Each level of Reaping Mauler should shift that by 5%. Of course, as a general rule (not specific to Reaping Mauler), each size category larger one grappler is than the other increases the chance of it being hit by 5%.

So a Halfling (Small) Monk-3/Reaping Mauler-4 is grappling an Ogre Barbarian (CR 7) (Large). The Halfling gets +4 for Improved Grapple. He also gets +4 from Clever Wrestling because his opponent is 2 sizes larger. Lastly, he gets +8 because of his 4 class levels.

The Ogre's Grapple Bonus is +19. The Halfling's is (+6 BAB, +16 Grapple Bonus, +1 Str (because we're nice and giving him a 12 Str) for a total of +23.

Once they're Grappling, the Halfing is at full AC +4 against the Ogre. If someone attacks in to the grapple, there's only a 20% chance they'll hit the Halfling (-10% for 2 sizes smaller, -20% for 4 levels of Reaping Mauler). Every time the Halfling punches the Ogre while grappling, he's doing an extra 2d6.

Not bad at all, I think.

[Thurbane]

How would one go about wording an ability to ignore Freedom of Movement etc?

[eggynack]

How would one go about wording an ability to ignore Freedom of Movement etc?
I'd go with something like, "Enemies need to roll normally in order to escape your grapple. Effects and abilities that would ordinarily allow for automatic escape don't work on your grappling." That'd stop FoM, and also excessive size difference, which seems good. Otherwise, I'd just word it that you ignore FoM for the purposes of grapples that you are participating in.

[Dagroth]

I'd go with something like, "Enemies need to roll normally in order to escape your grapple. Effects and abilities that would ordinarily allow for automatic escape don't work on your grappling." That'd stop FoM, and also excessive size difference, which seems good. Otherwise, I'd just word it that you ignore FoM for the purposes of grapples that you are participating in.

I would have to put a caveat of "Abilities which normally allow for automatic escape instead give a +(something... 10-15 I think) to the grapple/escape artist roll".

[eggynack]

I would have to put a caveat of "Abilities which normally allow for automatic escape instead give a +(something... 10-15 I think) to the grapple/escape artist roll".
I kinda like the idea that it's a capstone, and that it more or less just works. I think there should be things out there that just beat these things. Like how mage slayer just turns casting defensively off. Casters, and anyone with a specific magic item, can just take that cool core competency that you spent a bunch of levels and resources developing and turn it off. At that level of plan destruction, the thing destroying the plan destruction should be similarly direct and potent. Besides, it's not like there aren't other defenses against grappling. Tactical teleportation would still work, as would just being good at grappling (through various magic things, generally), and having an ally nearby to hit the grappler in the back of the head. Maybe sufficiently larger creatures should still get a bonus, but FoM should be completely defeatable if you've done enough work. It's not that high level a spell.

[Dagroth]

I kinda like the idea that it's a capstone, and that it more or less just works. I think there should be things out there that just beat these things. Like how mage slayer just turns casting defensively off. Casters, and anyone with a specific magic item, can just take that cool core competency that you spent a bunch of levels and resources developing and turn it off. At that level of plan destruction, the thing destroying the plan destruction should be similarly direct and potent. Besides, it's not like there aren't other defenses against grappling. Tactical teleportation would still work, as would just being good at grappling (through various magic things, generally), and having an ally nearby to hit the grappler in the back of the head. Maybe sufficiently larger creatures should still get a bonus, but FoM should be completely defeatable if you've done enough work. It's not that high level a spell.

I can understand your point... and, as I proved in the example I gave, a rebuilt version of the Reaping Mauler is not inescapable.

Also, if you use the modifications I suggested, then the ally would only have a 25% chance of hitting the Mauler in the head and a 75% chance of hitting you instead! (assuming same size targets & 5 levels of RM).

[ben-zayb]

1. get +1 effective size per class level for purposes of grapple (i.e. a tiny-sized RM 5 counts as gargantuan for grapple bonus/limit purposes)
2. opposed grapple check vs caster level (or similar) check for "perfect effects" against grappling, like FoM
3. get Improved Grab, Multigrab, Greater Multigrab
4. make Sleeper Lock a Fortitude save with DC equal to the grapple check, with a +X DC increase for each subsequent round pinned; each round, the unconscious creature makes another fortitude save to wake up for the same DC where it failed, with a +X bonus to save for each subsequent round not pinned
5. have the grappled creature (now held with only a single appendage due to Improved Grab) be wieldable as an improvised weapon that also takes damage every time it is used for attacking

[Fouredged Sword]

I like the idea of the class adding options to grappling. The ability to apply debuffs to things you grapple or damage VIA constrict or even ability damage.

And you need to be able to grapple things regardless of size. I like the idea of inverted snatch. IE you can ignore differences in size bonus to grapple but as a consequence the target does not count as being in a grapple and can move and act normally. If the creature moves you get carried with it.

Reduce the penalties for being in a grapple - Maybe even a def BONUS to people attacking you while in a grapple, maybe you get cover or something.

Gain the ability to prevent FOM from ending all grapples by not restricting the movement of the target. They can walk out of the square, you just follow them. This is possibly an extension of inverted snatch.

[The Viscount]

It could probably do with granting you Scorpion's Grasp or similar to initiate the grapple, instead of just by touch attack. Perhaps it could give the ability to conduct the grapple as if not grappled by taking a penalty, like the monster ability.

While we're tweaking, axe the capstone entirely. As has been mentioned, if you want to kill something you'd just CDG it once sleeper hold kicks in in 1 round instead of waiting 3 rounds.

[Eldariel]

1. All your natural attacks and unarmed strike could afford to get the Improved Grab-feature enabling normal attacks to enter Grapple.
2. I think you should eventually become able to act in Grapple as if you weren't grappling; that is, full attack, defend against other parties normally, etc.
3. Yeah, absolutely need some means to ignore immunities. I think you could roll the size restriction removal into the same ability - let the class grapple everyone. Suplex the Tarrasque! Freedom of Movement-type abilities could still grant like +5 or +10 against the Grapple-check, but the class's bonuses should be more than able to take care of it.
4. Absolutely fix Clever Wrestling and Mobility and make Improved Grapple a requirement, not an ability.
5. Could give some new grapple maneuvers like throwing a pinned opponent at another opponent or various locks or things that give you various means to debuff/take down grappled opponents when you don't want to kill them or if you want to remove their appendices from the game first or whatever.

[Sayt]

I'd take a few leaves out of Pathfinder's Tetori monk archetype, especially the Inescapable grapple (Su).

I'd also have the first level of Reaping Mauler modify Clever Wrestling to work on all grapple checks, not just ones to escape. Otherwise, the other suggestions in thread seem decent.

[Dagroth]

Okay, so instead of a flat bonus to grapple checks per level, an effective size increase per level? That is +4 to Grapple per level, which seems more powerful than I was personally considering.

I do believe you can already use your natural attacks while you're grappling. I know you can use your Unarmed Strike (because you can use a light one-handed weapon) while grappling.

I do like the idea of being able to apply status effects while grappling.

Level 2: Cause Blindness... DC 10+Str+(2x RM Level). Lasts 1 minute/RM level. Sound good?

[The Glyphstone]

If you make the virtual size increase at alternate odd-numbered levels, then you end up pseudo-Gargantuan at level 5, a total of +12 over 5 levels or 2.4/level. That'll still let you grapple up to Colossal, which is all you need to wrangle anything including the Tarrasque.

[Pleh]

The ability to do really terrible things once you've grappled someone. Bonus points for being able to grapple a dude, then hit another dude with previously said dude.


Rend

Obligatory extra characters

[Thurbane]

2. opposed grapple check vs caster level (or similar) check for "perfect effects" against grappling, like FoM

I like that idea - maybe any magical means used to escape the grapple is an opposed CL check/grapple check?