Feats You Would Never Take

[SirNibbles]

Recently I've seen threads about favourite feats, good epic feats, etc. It got me wondering about feats that are so bad you wouldn't take them even if you were making a character whose build was centred around something that feat supposedly improved.

This isn't about feats that are bad or not worth it for most builds (like Skill Focus: Speak Language). This is about feats that are supposed to help a certain build but fail completely at doing that.

EDIT: I think people aren't reading fully. I've bolded the important bits.
_

I'll get us started with Driving Attack from PHB II, page 78.

By taking a full-round action, you can make a single attack with a melee piercing weapon. If it hits, you can do a special bull rush in which you do not move. If you push your opponent 10 feet or more, you can reduce the actual distance they move by 10 feet and force them to fall prone instead.

If you didn't think that was bad enough, wait until you see the prerequisites:
BAB +14
Proficiency with selected piercing weapon
Weapon Focus with selected piercing weapon
Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing)
Weapon Specialization with selected piercing weapon

[Technetium43]

My kneejerk reaction is Clever Wrestling, but that's actually a good choice in the campaigns I'm in personally. Martial arts tournaments with no magic allowed are a big part of it, so having a way to deal with grapplers is important for normal unarmed fighters. In any other situation though, I'd put it up there.

[Coretron03]

Focused lexicon from tome of magic. Because its worth a feat to make your
Class feature harder to use.

[Telonius]

Spell Thematics. This is something spells should just have (except for the +5 to spellcraft DC).

[Pugwampy]

Any feat that makes you swop something out like say extra spell slot per level in exchange for losing all your armour and shield options on your class .

That does not upgrade your hero and you just lost a feat . If you are into super Roleplaying then i guess its fine to nerf the poor pc .

[Jormengand]

Focused lexicon from tome of magic. Because its worth a feat to make your
Class feature harder to use.

Technically, it just says "The DCs", that is, the truespeak DCs and the save DCs, and given that the truespeak DC should be really easy anyway (as in, you shouldn't be failing truespeak checks ever) it's possibly worth taking as a sort of power attack for truenamers. If only it worked more like power attack in that you could choose how much harder to make the check and scale the save up by the same amount, then I would probably take it on every truenamer I built.

The other interpretation is that by "The DCs" it's only referring to one of truespeak and save, and there's nothing but "Well, the one that's useful, DUH" to help you decide which it means.

Personally, I would never take the Obscure Personal True Name or Personal True Name Backlash feats, because if you're building your character to annoy people who are not only playing truenamers but actually using their (vastly expensive and time-consuming for a tiny benefit) true name research, then you have reached a new low in life.

[Gusmo]

The epic feat dire charge. I wonder just what the designers thought pounce was worth if they created an epic feat that's a weaker version of it.

[weckar]

Any feat that makes you swop something out like say extra spell slot per level in exchange for losing all your armour and shield options on your class .

That does not upgrade your hero and you just lost a feat . If you are into super Roleplaying then i guess its fine to nerf the poor pc .Are there any feats like that? This sounds more to be the realm of ACFs...


(as in, you shouldn't be failing truespeak checks ever) Here's one realization the designer really should have had...

[Stealth Marmot]

Frankly, I don't get the appeal of Spring Attack.

Sure you can avoid attacks of opportunity from attacking someone before and after moving, but you also still have to sacrifice your secondary attacks if you have them. Add on the fact that you have to take Dodge, a fairly weak feat, and Mobility, another fairly weak feat, I don't quite get the use of Spring Attack. You can't use it in heavy armor either, so I guess this is for a rogue? Honestly, this feat chain can be replaced with the tumble skill.

Edit: Also, Combat Casting. You get a +4 towards one specific roll in the concentration skill when Skill Focus (Concentration) will give you +3 on the same roll AND +3 on any other roll involving concentration (including taking damage during spellcasting).

[weckar]

Spring attack is a beauty in that it uses the Attack Action rather than a standard action. It also doesn't say that this maneauver takes a full round to do. What this effectively means is that for a full attack you can move from target to target as long as your total distance does not exceed your speed - and speed is one of the most easily buffed things in the game.

[SirNibbles]

Spring attack is a beauty in that it uses the Attack Action rather than a standard action. It also doesn't say that this maneauver takes a full round to do. What this effectively means is that for a full attack you can move from target to target as long as your total distance does not exceed your speed - and speed is one of the most easily buffed things in the game.

From the SRD:

"There are four types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, and free actions."

"Making an attack is a standard action."

If you have Travel Devotion or some other way to move as a Swift/Free action, you could make a full attack. If you do not have such a trick, you would have to use a move action to move, thus preventing you from making a full attack (limiting you to a single hit).

__

I wonder if it's possible to combine Spring Attack with Pounce or something similar.

[Uncle Pine]

Spring attack is a beauty in that it uses the Attack Action rather than a standard action.
The attack action is a standard action.

Standard Actions

Attack
Making an attack is a standard action.


It also doesn't say that this maneauver takes a full round to do. What this effectively means is that for a full attack you can move from target to target as long as your total distance does not exceed your speed - and speed is one of the most easily buffed things in the game.
Spring Attack requires you to use the attack action and to move. The attack action is a standard action and movement is generally (but not always) accomplished with a movement action. Standard action+move action=a whole round's worth of action, bar spells, magic items and abilities that affect action economy.
Your reading regarding moving as part of the attack action would be correct if Spring Attack actually said that you can do so "as part of the attack action".

[Mordaedil]

Right, that's the point of spring attack in its base form. You leap in for a single hit and leap out. It's supposed to be good(Reading the above replies, I think I misunderstood how good he thought the feat was. English is hard), you paid two sort of garbage feats for it (mobility especially loses its usefulness with spring attack in place, dodge would be better and easier to keep track of if it was just straight up 1 Dodge AC).

I tend to find (nearly) all of the skill increments feats to be useless, mostly because they don't get more powerful as you level (slightly addressed in Pathfinder) but they also just don't give you anything cool to do. I realize they are an obvious choice as they were designed as trap feats, but unless you artificially cap your game (this worked on NWN servers which used this to decent effect) the +2 boost is just incredibly insignificant.

At least the epic version had the decency to have some roleplaying benefit to it.

[Morphic tide]

Weapon Focus(Magic/Psionic Ray). It's two different feats. Yes, they are valid picks. Unfortunately, they have so little strength that they just aren't worth it. Because you only get a mere +1 to attack rolls to the ray(s, with metamagic), and no way to improve it. A scaling version of Weapon Focus would solve so many problems...

[Zombimode]

Spring Attack sees ist uses in E6 games and in the hand of NPCs.

As a GM, it is a tool I don't want to miss.
Not everything needs to be useful (or intended) for the PCs.

[Pugwampy]

Are there any feats like that? This sounds more to be the realm of ACFs...

Well in its defence its as about unofficial feat options you can find . I would use this on a priest class because it costs less.



UndeFEATable 4 Clerics

MYSTIC PRIEST
You are more schooled in the arts of magic than war
and have given up time in the sparring yard for time
communing with your god on the nature of magic.
Prerequisite: Cleric level 1st
Benefit: You gain an additional memorization slot for each
spell level. In exchange for this increase in power you
start with no armour or shield proficiencies and the only
weapons you are proficient in are the club, dagger, heavy
crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. You are also
proficient in your god’s favoured weapon.
Normal: Clerics receive Light Armour Proficiency,
Medium Armour Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and
Simple Weapon Proficiency as bonus feats at 1st-level.
Special: This feat can only be taken at 1st-level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

@Pugwampy: That's a really nice feat. Take it on a cloistered cleric, and go to town.



I'd never take a feat like Antipsionic Magic, which is, apart from weak, also impractical and annoying to keep track of.

[Zombimode]

Personally, I would never take the Obscure Personal True Name or Personal True Name Backlash feats, because if you're building your character to annoy people who are not only playing truenamers but actually using their (vastly expensive and time-consuming for a tiny benefit) true name research, then you have reached a new low in life.

Adding to that: any feat that provides a defensive Option agains one (and only one) very specific and narrow subsystem.
Psionic Null, for instance.
I think there is something like Incarnum Resistance in MiO.

[Morphic tide]

Adding to that: any feat that provides a defensive Option agains one (and only one) very specific and narrow subsystem.
Psionic Null, for instance.
I think there is something like Incarnum Resistance in MiO.

>"narrow subsystem"
>"Psionic Null"

Yea, there's multiple settings where Psionics is a big, common thing to deal with, and many, many possibly plots involve heavy use of Psionics as a side effects. Anything with large involvement of Illithids, for example.

Heck, Psionics is second only to vancian magic in support in 3.X subsystems. Largely because so many subsystems get support in only one splatbook, typically one named for the subsystem.

[stack]

For pathfinder: combat expertise. Now that dirty fighting exists to circumvent it, there is never time I would bother with CE.

[Pugwampy]

@Pugwampy: That's a really nice feat. Take it on a cloistered cleric, and go to town.

I could imagine a player roleplaying a living saint figure choosing this setup .

Who cares about weapons if you have low strength .

[Jormengand]

Well in its defence its as about unofficial feat options you can find . I would use this on a priest class because it costs less.



UndeFEATable 4 Clerics

MYSTIC PRIEST
You are more schooled in the arts of magic than war
and have given up time in the sparring yard for time
communing with your god on the nature of magic.
Prerequisite: Cleric level 1st
Benefit: You gain an additional memorization slot for each
spell level. In exchange for this increase in power you
start with no armour or shield proficiencies and the only
weapons you are proficient in are the club, dagger, heavy
crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. You are also
proficient in your god’s favoured weapon.
Normal: Clerics receive Light Armour Proficiency,
Medium Armour Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and
Simple Weapon Proficiency as bonus feats at 1st-level.
Special: This feat can only be taken at 1st-level.

That's exceptionally good for a cleric, especially given that most battle clerics will get the MWP: Deity's Favoured Weapon as a bonus feat from their war domain anyway. Extra spells are basically better than everything else a cleric can do.

[flappeercraft]

Ambish feats, they are all complete trash due to the sneak attack damage reduction and requirement for them to be a sneak attack to use while spellcasters can do it better, at lower levels and easier.

[Deeds]

Skill Focus: Nobility and Royalty

[Gruftzwerg]

I'll get us started with Driving Attack from PHB II, page 78.

By taking a full-round action, you can make a single attack with a melee piercing weapon. If it hits, you can do a special bull rush in which you do not move. If you push your opponent 10 feet or more, you can reduce the actual distance they move by 10 feet and force them to fall prone instead.

If you didn't think that was bad enough, wait until you see the prerequisites:
BAB +14
Proficiency with selected piercing weapon
Weapon Focus with selected piercing weapon
Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing)
Weapon Specialization with selected piercing weapon

I don't get why you think Driving Attack is bad?

- It's almost a trip (prone enemy), but with other bonuses involved. IIRC defensive bonuses against trip are more common as against bullrush (I may be wrong here).

- It's a bullrush attack, which may include a charge (+2 bonus which wouldn't be accessible for tripping)

- You missed the sentence :
"This bull rush uses your total bonus on damage rolls in place of your Strength modifier."
Which makes it even more powerful. Instead of only Str-modifier, you can use your 1.5xStr-modifier for a 2h-weapon. Further all other flat dmg bonuses you (can) have.


Let's gather all common bonuses you would/could get on the roll:

- possible Size bonus (just listing for completeness)
- if you Charge +2
- Str-modifier x1.5 for using 2h weapon
- Weapon Specialization +2
- Weapon Mastery +2
- Magic Weapon +5
- Magic Weapon Collusion (+2 for pricing) Enhancement adds another +5 to damage
- Improved Bullrush +4 (just listing for completeness. same bonus as Imp. Trip would give + same "no AoO" bonus)
= 20 + 1.5xStr-modifier

It would stack good on top of a "Charge Build". Imagine a "mounted charge"-fighter build with Combat Brute. You charge the first round, use Bullrush and knock you enemy down. With your immense bonuses, results where you knock you enemies 20 - 10 = 10 feet away (beat enemy roll by 15) and prone should be common.

On the second round "Momentum Swing" from Combat Brute kicks in. You charge again and use all your other charge bonuses for the kill. (Spirited Charge, Lance, Various Weapon Enhancement, Leap Attack..)

It has many prerequisites, but I don't see it as bad as you. Sure you don't get the free attack as you would with Imp. Trip, but it has other ways to shine imho. Your roll bonus is much higher compared to trip and the enemy is more likely to drop. Further it can combo well with Combat Brutes Momentum Swing.
______________________

Is it just me who sees this as a great niche feat for chargers or as legit exchange to tripping?

[SangoProduction]

Focused lexicon from tome of magic. Because its worth a feat to make your
Class feature harder to use.

I'm fairly sure it means save DCs, but yeah. That's an odd mistype.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't get why you think Driving Attack is bad?

[...]

Is it just me who sees this as a great niche feat for chargers or as legit exchange to tripping?
Driving Attack takes a full-round action. That means it is not compatible with a charge, even with pounce. It is not compatile with anything that improves full attacks. It is not compatible with Decisive Strike, and you can't use it with maneuvers. It's bad.

[Firechanter]

There are many feats I would never ever take; some of them may not even be bad in and of themselves, but are mortgaged with ridiculous feat tax prereqs.

A lot of feats do very little. A small number does pretty much nothing at all. A tiny tiny portion makes you weaker.
However, the absolutely most horrible feat that I'm aware of in the entirety of 3.X is from Pathfinder. It makes you weaker _and_ buffs your enemies at the same time.

Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general/?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F)

In short, you spend that feat slot in order to gain the ability to give up your action to grant your enemy the effect of Power Attack if he wants to make a melee attack on you.

The operative word being _if_. This would be such an awesome, even overpowered feat if the enemy was only given the choice of attacking you (with an attack penalty) or lose its turn. What an awesome way to shut down casters. But no. The affected enemy is still free to do _anything_. They can shoot you with arrows, or cast a spell on you, or act in any way they like against your teammates, or flip you the bird and ride into the sunset. Only IF for whatever reason the enemy decides not to do any of these things, but rather make a melee attack against you out of their own free will, THEN they do so with Power Attack even if they don't have that feat. If they actually _do_ have Power Attack, it becomes more effective.

The facts that only gnomes may take Caustic Slur and it only works on Favoured Enemies is really just damage mitigation at this point.

Bonus points if you can guess who wrote it.

P.S.: one person on these honourable boards - I don't remember who exactly - has at one time taken the cake with this comment:
I'd heard that PF nerfed Power Attack, but I didn't think that the nerfing was so hard that you'd want to wish the feat on your own worst enemy.

[Bucky]

You left out Caustic Slur's will save.

[Rijan_Sai]

Azure Toughness

This is a feat that is actively* worse then regular toughness, and I generally wouldn't take that!

At first, I thought it might be a mildly decent alternative to toughness, but then I re-read it... Even for the bonus essentia, it is not worth the paper it's printed on!

*As in, it requires additional resources (essentia) to even use, and then it gives temporary... temporary! hit points! And, unlike a few other incarnum feats that give back the essentia once the benefit has been used up, nope! These are gone for the day!

[Firechanter]

You left out Caustic Slur's will save.

If anygnome used that feat on me, I'd _intentionally_ fail my Will Save.

[Telok]

Track, when it's a prerequisite for a PrC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) focused on monsters that can plane shift, fly, dimension door, etc.

Toughness in any game where you expected to play past level 1.

Swim Like A Fish, Grizzly’s Claws, Eagle’s Wings, Cougar’s Vision, Divine Damage
Reduction, Divine Resistance, Sound of Silence. etc. etc. etc.

[Venger]

There are many feats I would never ever take; some of them may not even be bad in and of themselves, but are mortgaged with ridiculous feat tax prereqs.

A lot of feats do very little. A small number does pretty much nothing at all. A tiny tiny portion makes you weaker.
However, the absolutely most horrible feat that I'm aware of in the entirety of 3.X is from Pathfinder. It makes you weaker _and_ buffs your enemies at the same time.

Caustic Slur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/caustic-slur-general/?tmpl=%2Fsystem%2Fapp%2Ftemplates%2Fprint%2F)

In short, you spend that feat slot in order to gain the ability to give up your action to grant your enemy the effect of Power Attack if he wants to make a melee attack on you.

The operative word being _if_. This would be such an awesome, even overpowered feat if the enemy was only given the choice of attacking you (with an attack penalty) or lose its turn. What an awesome way to shut down casters. But no. The affected enemy is still free to do _anything_. They can shoot you with arrows, or cast a spell on you, or act in any way they like against your teammates, or flip you the bird and ride into the sunset. Only IF for whatever reason the enemy decides not to do any of these things, but rather make a melee attack against you out of their own free will, THEN they do so with Power Attack even if they don't have that feat. If they actually _do_ have Power Attack, it becomes more effective.

The facts that only gnomes may take Caustic Slur and it only works on Favoured Enemies is really just damage mitigation at this point.

Bonus points if you can guess who wrote it.

P.S.: one person on these honourable boards - I don't remember who exactly - has at one time taken the cake with this comment:
I'd heard that PF nerfed Power Attack, but I didn't think that the nerfing was so hard that you'd want to wish the feat on your own worst enemy.
if we're doing pathfinder stuff, I've got to throw another terrible gnome feat on there:

behold: helpless prisoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/helpless-prisoner-general/)

hey, remember that thing iroh did in the last airbender? of course you do. want to spend a feat on that?

how often are you getting taken prisoner that this is a viable option?

if that wasn't awesome enough, it's a flat bonus.

since clearly this feat is too strong, you even get a mitigating factor to make it literally worse than not having the feat at all if your captors are "evil or cruel"

since most PCs are good, won't the bulk of your captors be evil or cruel?

when are npc henchmen not going to know PCs are dangerous?

so, like caustic slur, this is a feat that'll debuff you more often than not.

[The Viscount]

Dire flail Mind Blade, Dwarven Urgrosh Mind Blade, Two-Bladed Mind Blade, Monk's Spade Mind Blade, and Orc Double Axe Mind Blade.
A bizarre collection of weapons you may have forgotten even exist that only work for a class you almost certainly will never use.

Each feat lets you shape your mind blade into one of these double weapons. Weirdly enough each weapon has a line that you can't use them as double weapons if holding in one hand, which is an unnecessary rule since they're all two-handed weapons, so by definition are completely unusable with only 1 hand. The damage for all of these is unimpressive. None of them mention, but going off of the general rules for fighting with 2 mind blades, each end has reduced bonus, and you can't assign different enchantments to the 2 ends. The real kicker is that these are the only alternate shapes your mindblade can take besides short sword, longsword, and bastard sword. You can't get any actually useful Mind blades, there's no general feat for just let you shape it to what you want. At least they don't require proficiency with the weapon.

[Douglas]

Weirdly enough each weapon has a line that you can't use them as double weapons if holding in one hand, which is an unnecessary rule since they're all two-handed weapons, so by definition are completely unusable with only 1 hand.
A two-handed weapon designed to be wielded by creatures of one size category is a one-handed weapon for creatures of the next size up.

[stack]

Another PF: Prone shooter, pre-errata. Literally (literally literally, not intensifying literally) did nothing, since it removed a penalty that didn't exist. Not that the bonus from the new one is ever worth taking either.

[Pex]

Practically any metamagic. I think they're a good idea, but I can't help myself in thinking I would always rather cast a spell of the appropriate level than a lower level one in that slot. For me to take a metamagic feat would require a tactic of such coolness that it overrides my desire to cast a spell from the appropriate level. Only two metamagic feats were able to do that, Extend and Reach. I played a cleric with Extend. Extend Magic Vestment. Extend Greater Magic Weapon. Extend Heroes' Feast. The buffs were well worth the effort for that character in that campaign. My Pathfinder Oracle of Life had Reach spell. Lots of important spells are touch spells. Casting them at range literally saved characters' lives, Reach Freedom of Movement for example. At high level there's Reach Heal, though even Reach Cure Wounds saw some use since the character was supposed to be a healbot and helped I could quicken it for free thanks to a class ability. Reach Bestow Curse was fun for the occasional attack and was effective in shutting down bad guys.

[Venger]

Practically any metamagic. I think they're a good idea, but I can't help myself in thinking I would always rather cast a spell of the appropriate level than a lower level one in that slot. For me to take a metamagic feat would require a tactic of such coolness that it overrides my desire to cast a spell from the appropriate level. Only two metamagic feats were able to do that, Extend and Reach. I played a cleric with Extend. Extend Magic Vestment. Extend Greater Magic Weapon. Extend Heroes' Feast. The buffs were well worth the effort for that character in that campaign. My Pathfinder Oracle of Life had Reach spell. Lots of important spells are touch spells. Casting them at range literally saved characters' lives, Reach Freedom of Movement for example. At high level there's Reach Heal, though even Reach Cure Wounds saw some use since the character was supposed to be a healbot and helped I could quicken it for free thanks to a class ability. Reach Bestow Curse was fun for the occasional attack and was effective in shutting down bad guys.

Well, that's all true if you actually pay for the metamagic at cost rather than reducing or negating it somehow. If you use them as printed, then some of them are a little underwhelming.

[Firechanter]

Another PF: Prone shooter, pre-errata. Literally (literally literally, not intensifying literally) did nothing, since it removed a penalty that didn't exist. Not that the bonus from the new one is ever worth taking either.

Yup, that's one I had in mind when I wrote "some do nothing at all". It may actually be _the only_ feat in all of 3E that does literally nothing at all.
Note how, while the erratum changed the benefit (and made it actually do something, if not much), they didn't update the description. So now the fluff and the crunch have absolutely nothing in common anymore.

[Xarteros]

I keep thinking to say "Ranged Pin" but then I remembered that it's actually fantastic. The DC is so low that it's basically a guaranteed success for them to break free, but it uses a standard action to break free :smallamused:

[Venger]

Yup, that's one I had in mind when I wrote "some do nothing at all". It may actually be _the only_ feat in all of 3E that does literally nothing at all.
Note how, while the erratum changed the benefit (and made it actually do something, if not much), they didn't update the description. So now the fluff and the crunch have absolutely nothing in common anymore.

I feel like given the huge amount of trap options in 3.x, there is probably at least one other one, but I can't think of one. time to book dive


I keep thinking to say "Ranged Pin" but then I remembered that it's actually fantastic. The DC is so low that it's basically a guaranteed success for them to break free, but it uses a standard action to break free :smallamused:
hey, you're right!

obligatory shout out to scion of tem et nu, the only feat I know of whose presence has the potential to (in admittedly few situations) actually kill your character via phantom hippo bite.

[Jack_Simth]

Spell Thematics. This is something spells should just have (except for the +5 to spellcraft DC).
You kinda do, actually. DMG, page 34, section "Describing Spell Effects":
You can let players describe the spells that their characters cast. Don’t, however, allow a player to use an original description that makes a spell seem more powerful than it is. A fireball spell that creates an illusion of a dragon breathing flames goes too far. (Emphasis added)

So if as a player you want your magic missle to look like little horse-drawn chariots that crash into the target, go for it!

[Coretron03]

Ranged trip. You start of with a -2 penalty to the trip, a further -2 penalty to the trip if the targets beyond 30ft (which you probably are), doubled penalties for each ranged incremnt (making long range almost impossible), uses dex instead of str (good for archer build, terrible for typical tripper) and takes a full round action for a single trip attempt that deals damage as a normal hit. Doesn't really work with any archery feats and your gonna need presice shot if you dont want another -4. So, 4 feats to be -4 behind a melee tripper who likely has reach and can benefit from enlarge person. Um, grats guys

[Zancloufer]

I keep thinking to say "Ranged Pin" but then I remembered that it's actually fantastic. The DC is so low that it's basically a guaranteed success for them to break free, but it uses a standard action to break free :smallamused:

Can be even more hilarious if the DM treats each arrow as a separate pin to break. Manyshot+Rapidshot and you can literally pincushion an enemy to the wall for the entire battle.


On the note of terrible feats, many epic ones are questionable. Blinding Speed stands out especially. Spend an EPIC FEAT to gain the ability to cast Haste as a Supernatural ability.

For 5 rounds. Not like you can, IDK, have haste at will/24+ hour duration easily before that point (I actually remember burning 9th level spell slots to do this in epic NWN 2 modules). No, not at all. Casting an AoE buff at minimal CL for 1 target is totally Epic Feat material guys.

[GilesTheCleric]

I don't think I've seen anyone mention one of the worst feats in the game yet. Diehard. It does exactly what it promises: it makes you die. Hard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

obligatory shout out to blessed by tem et nu, the only feat I know of whose presence has the potential to (in admittedly few situations) actually kill your character via phantom hippo bite.

Dammit. Beat me to it.

Also gets my vote for most hilarious feat printed. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: FIFY

[Thurbane]

@Pugwampy: That's a really nice feat. Take it on a cloistered cleric, and go to town.

Great for a Ninja 1/Cloistered Cleric X build, since you pick up weapon proficiencies through Ninja, and get Wis to AC when you are unarmored.


I don't think I've seen anyone mention one of the worst feats in the game yet. Diehard. It does exactly what it promises: it makes you die. Hard.

First 3.5 campaign I played in, I took a Cleric with Endurance, Diehard and EWP (bastard sword).

In one of the early sessions (RHoD), I got taken to -9 HP by a lightning bolt, and would have died if not for Diehard. Cured myself up.

In the same campaign, found a +1 Frost Bastard Sword (as printed in module) in one of the first loot hauls!

Talk about beginners luck! :smallbiggrin:

[Marlowe]

I thought the point to Die Hard was that you could crawl away and hide rather than be hostage to the situation and making your team-mates have to defend your prone body, not stand up and try to fight some more.

[Venger]

Dammit. Beat me to it.

Also gets my vote for most hilarious feat printed. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: FIFY
whoops! yeah I was thinking of the class (which, surprisingly, does not require you to take blessed of tem et nu)

it's also probably my favorite prereq for a feat in the game. to take it, you have to beat a hippopotamus in single combat.

from that point on, no hippo will attack you unless magically compelled, and you can rebuke hippos. such a ridiculous feat.


I thought the point to Die Hard was that you could crawl away and hide rather than be hostage to the situation and making your team-mates have to defend your prone body, not stand up and try to fight some more.
I think the point is that in any scenario where you've been rendered past -1, you probably aren't really in a position to hide and wait out the combat, so die hard isn't really offering any new utility.

[Gruftzwerg]

Driving Attack takes a full-round action. That means it is not compatible with a charge, even with pounce. It is not compatile with anything that improves full attacks. It is not compatible with Decisive Strike, and you can't use it with maneuvers. It's bad.

I misread the feat but I'm not buying in that it "takes" a full-round-action.


If you use a full-round action to make a single melee attack with any piercing weapon and succeed in hitting, you can initiate a special bull rush attempt against the target

further this quote get's a totally other meaning:
This bull rush uses your total bonus on damage rolls in place of your Strength modifier.

Imho Driving Attack ain't use the action. It requires you to make a "full-round-action with a single melee attack". This lead me to the conclusion that you can use your full-round-action with your single attack you get the free Bull Rush with a bonus equal to your damage bonus(!). This makes it even better as I thought in the first place. Cause now the attack routine looks like this:

1. Charge enemy with Power Attack (incl. charge feats)
1a. If you hit > get a free Bullrush with:
+2 Charge
+1.5xStr-modifier
+Power Attack bonus (incl 2h bonus and bonuses from feats)!
+ Size modifier
+4 Imp. Bullrush
+2 Weapon Specialization
+2 Weapon Mastery
+5 Magic Weapon
+5 Magic Weapon Collusion (+2 for pricing) Enhancement adds another +5 to damage
= 20 + Power Attack bonus + 1.5 Str-mod + Size

2. Momentum Swing from Combat Brute kicks in for max charge fun, go back to step 1.

Which makes it even more easy to push the enemy 20ft (-10ft for knock prone = enemy drops min. 10 ft. away).

Imho this is something I would call a giantslayer build. No matter how (physically) strong or big your enemy is, they will fall against your insane charge + knock back + prone combo.

Dunno, I just woke up and maybe my logic or reading skills may be handicapped^^, but I think I just felt in love with this feat and I am intending to make a build around it soon. :smallsmile:

edit: small editing for better clarification.

[Dagroth]

Spell Thematics. This is something spells should just have (except for the +5 to spellcraft DC).

Haluran (sp?) Elder requires this feat... and, if you re-fluff the PRC a tiny bit, it's a really good class.


Frankly, I don't get the appeal of Spring Attack.

Sure you can avoid attacks of opportunity from attacking someone before and after moving, but you also still have to sacrifice your secondary attacks if you have them. Add on the fact that you have to take Dodge, a fairly weak feat, and Mobility, another fairly weak feat, I don't quite get the use of Spring Attack. You can't use it in heavy armor either, so I guess this is for a rogue? Honestly, this feat chain can be replaced with the tumble skill.

Edit: Also, Combat Casting. You get a +4 towards one specific roll in the concentration skill when Skill Focus (Concentration) will give you +3 on the same roll AND +3 on any other roll involving concentration (including taking damage during spellcasting).

Spring attack is powerful for Greater Wraiths in a dungeon.

Combat Casting is dumb, I agree.


Weapon Focus(Magic/Psionic Ray). It's two different feats. Yes, they are valid picks. Unfortunately, they have so little strength that they just aren't worth it. Because you only get a mere +1 to attack rolls to the ray(s, with metamagic), and no way to improve it. A scaling version of Weapon Focus would solve so many problems...

There is a scaling version of Weapon Focus... it's called Knowledge Devotion!


Well in its defence its as about unofficial feat options you can find . I would use this on a priest class because it costs less.

UndeFEATable 4 Clerics

MYSTIC PRIEST
You are more schooled in the arts of magic than war and have given up time in the sparring yard for time communing with your god on the nature of magic.
Prerequisite: Cleric level 1st
Benefit: You gain an additional memorization slot for each spell level. In exchange for this increase in power you start with no armour or shield proficiencies and the only weapons you are proficient in are the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. You are also proficient in your god’s favoured weapon.
Normal: Clerics receive Light Armour Proficiency, Medium Armour Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and Simple Weapon Proficiency as bonus feats at 1st-level.
Special: This feat can only be taken at 1st-level.

Wow. That's an awesome feat for RKVs, since they'll get all those proficiencies back when they take a level of Crusader.
If you're going Mystic Theurge, you don't want armor anyway.
Radiant Servant of Pelor gives you all your armor & weapon proficiencies back, plus Martial Weapons. :smallcool:
Sacred Exorcists get all Simple Weapons at least.
Sacred Fist can't wear armor or use weapons... ever :smalleek:
Seeker of the Misty Isle gets all but Heavy Armor back.
Shining Blade of Heironeous gives you all your armor & weapon proficiencies back, plus Martial Weapons.
War Priest gives you all your armor & weapon proficiencies back, plust Martial Weapons.

So really, it's a good Feat that can be overcome very easily for most builds.

[Venger]

Haluran (sp?) Elder requires this feat... and, if you re-fluff the PRC a tiny bit, it's a really good class.
it's Halruaan.


Spring attack is powerful for Greater Wraiths in a dungeon.
the power there is coming from the wraith, not spring attack.

spring attack is junk. it's far too expensive, being the third in a chain. more importantly, if you want to melee, you need to be able to pounce reliably, not just situationally move and make a single attack.

[GilesTheCleric]

First 3.5 campaign I played in, I took a Cleric with Endurance, Diehard and EWP (bastard sword).

In one of the early sessions (RHoD), I got taken to -9 HP by a lightning bolt, and would have died if not for Diehard. Cured myself up.

In the same campaign, found a +1 Frost Bastard Sword (as printed in module) in one of the first loot hauls!

Talk about beginners luck! :smallbiggrin:

Wow, that is impressive luck.


I thought the point to Die Hard was that you could crawl away and hide rather than be hostage to the situation and making your team-mates have to defend your prone body, not stand up and try to fight some more.

The point of diehard is to get you killed when the foes see that you're still up and a threat. Being KO'd means you get ignored, not focused.

[Mordaedil]

Practically any metamagic. I think they're a good idea, but I can't help myself in thinking I would always rather cast a spell of the appropriate level than a lower level one in that slot. For me to take a metamagic feat would require a tactic of such coolness that it overrides my desire to cast a spell from the appropriate level. Only two metamagic feats were able to do that, Extend and Reach. I played a cleric with Extend. Extend Magic Vestment. Extend Greater Magic Weapon. Extend Heroes' Feast. The buffs were well worth the effort for that character in that campaign. My Pathfinder Oracle of Life had Reach spell. Lots of important spells are touch spells. Casting them at range literally saved characters' lives, Reach Freedom of Movement for example. At high level there's Reach Heal, though even Reach Cure Wounds saw some use since the character was supposed to be a healbot and helped I could quicken it for free thanks to a class ability. Reach Bestow Curse was fun for the occasional attack and was effective in shutting down bad guys.

I mean, if you don't actually do math, I suppose.

A fireball is 1d6 per levels, as is cone of cold. At level 9, when you get 5th level spell slots, cone of cold does 9d6 points of damage, while a fireball does 9d6 points of damage. At 10th level, fireball caps at 10d6 and cone of cold deals 10d6 damage. If you empower the fireball it takes a fifth level spell slot and effectively does 15d6 points of damage. Cone of cold will eventually cap at 15d6 points of damage, but you can then empower that one in a 7th level slot for 22.5d6 effective dice damage.

Maybe you don't think Evocation spells are all that great. That's fine, consider using it for Enervation.

The problem with Reach is that you could get it as a class ability, if only the Hierophant also gave spell levels (why does it not?) Extend is powerful, but persist might be tougher to justify.

I'm not going to defend Maximize without adjustment and Enlarge and Widen are so situational, I don't see much of a point to preparing them.

[Firechanter]

Well, Diehard _can_ be a lifesaver, if you're in over your head and otherwise would get TPKed.
The main prob I see with it is the stupid Endurance prereq. One of those annoying feat taxes. I prolly wouldn't take Diehard without prereq either, but it's okay if you get it for free (through class or whatever).

[Marlowe]

Wow, that is impressive luck.



The point of diehard is to get you killed when the foes see that you're still up and a threat. Being KO'd means you get ignored, not focused.

Why are you "up"? There's a reason I said "crawl away".

It's not a good feat, granted. But the reasons given for it being a terrible feat seem to depend upon the player behaving in an incredibly stupid fashion.

[Kurald Galain]

I would never take a feat like Weapon Focus or Skill Focus, simply because a plain numerical bonus is boring. I'm not saying these are all bad feats but there are also flashy feats and I simply prefer those.

Even worse? Dodge. Boring and slowing down gameplay.

[Mordaedil]

I would never take a feat like Weapon Focus or Skill Focus, simply because a plain numerical bonus is boring. I'm not saying these are all bad feats but there are also flashy feats and I simply prefer those.

Even worse? Dodge. Boring and slowing down gameplay.

How do you feel about Epic Prowess and Armor Skin my fellow hater of boring feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How do you feel about Epic Prowess and Armor Skin my fellow hater of boring feats.

I actually don't dislike the flat bonus feats all that much and even I can't deny that those two are utter crap. Attack and armor class bonuses are -way- too easy to get to justify burning feats on it, even in epic.

[Kurald Galain]

How do you feel about Epic Prowess and Armor Skin my fellow hater of boring feats.

Yeah, boring in addition to being way underpowered for epic feats. It's like the designers ran out of ideas and still had to fill a couple pages.

[Firechanter]

We don't like feats like Weapon Focus because they provide a (1) small, (2) flat bonus to something we (3) can already do.

If it was a _sizable_ flat bonus to something we can already do, we'd be less toxic about it. Like, +3 to your favourite weapon.
A feat is classified as Good if it's not flat but scaling (to appreciable numbers), like Knowledge Devotion.
Of course, the best feats are those that expand your options, so you can do stuff you couldn't do before.

[Jon_Dahl]

I agree about Spring Attack. I just don't like it. It is confusing in some battles where it's hard to move around or there are several opponents with reach.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I misread the feat but I'm not buying in that it "takes" a full-round-action.
Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation, and it does make sense. "Any time you use a full-round action that involves [making [a single attack] [with a piercing weapon]], this bull rush happens if you hit" is a much more powerful reading*, and works not only on charges, but also on Decisive Strikes and certain maneuvers, such as Salamander Charge (deals all sorts of fire damage, but only one attack).


*Brackets are needed to distinguish from the [making [a single [attack with a piercing weapon]] reading, which allows you to make a full attack and simply follow up with an off-hand dagger to get a free bull rush.

[Bucky]

The rule of thumb regarding numerical bonuses is that if it could be replaced (and more) with +2 to one attribute, it's a bad feat.

It explains why Weapon Focus and Dodge are bad, but Improved Initiative is worth taking.

[Bavarian itP]

UndeFEATable 4 Clerics

MYSTIC PRIEST
You are more schooled in the arts of magic than war
and have given up time in the sparring yard for time
communing with your god on the nature of magic.
Prerequisite: Cleric level 1st
Benefit: You gain an additional memorization slot for each
spell level. In exchange for this increase in power you
start with no armour or shield proficiencies and the only
weapons you are proficient in are the club, dagger, heavy
crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. You are also
proficient in your god’s favoured weapon.
Normal: Clerics receive Light Armour Proficiency,
Medium Armour Proficiency, Shield Proficiency and
Simple Weapon Proficiency as bonus feats at 1st-level.
Special: This feat can only be taken at 1st-level.

So ... there's this extremly obscure homebrew feat, and you hate it so much that ... you advertise it on one of the most popular D&D sites on the web?

And it's not even THAT bad ...

[GilesTheCleric]

Why are you "up"? There's a reason I said "crawl away".

It's not a good feat, granted. But the reasons given for it being a terrible feat seem to depend upon the player behaving in an incredibly stupid fashion.

It seems to me that you don't automatically fall prone when it procs. Because you are never unconscious, you never fall down. Sure, you could do it intentionally, but then you're crawling, which iirc allows you to move at 5' per round. You could try the withdraw action, but that's not always enough.

[martixy]

Azure Toughness

This is a feat that is actively* worse then regular toughness, and I generally wouldn't take that!

At first, I thought it might be a mildly decent alternative to toughness, but then I re-read it... Even for the bonus essentia, it is not worth the paper it's printed on!

*As in, it requires additional resources (essentia) to even use, and then it gives temporary... temporary! hit points! And, unlike a few other incarnum feats that give back the essentia once the benefit has been used up, nope! These are gone for the day!

The temp HP hurt it substantially, true.
However! There are theoretical builds where it actually makes sense(for example, a Pain mastery/vigor based psionic character with the incarnum PP recharge trick - it saves a feat in a very feat-heavy build, which is nice).

Me, I hate spring attack for the stupid prereqs as much as the next guy, but I've used it in a build I've played so I fail the thread's premise with regard to it.

Something I have never and will never take is the Open Minded feat. If anything you want to trade THE OTHER WAY around.

P.S. For those bashing on epic prowess/armor skin. They do allow something that was not possible before epic levels and it's not like they ran out of ideas, they are just feats that have to be there within a space where there is no level cap. They fill the same role as the "Great X", but for other character attributes.

[Morphic tide]

We don't like feats like Weapon Focus because they provide a (1) small, (2) flat bonus to something we (3) can already do.

If it was a _sizable_ flat bonus to something we can already do, we'd be less toxic about it. Like, +3 to your favourite weapon.
A feat is classified as Good if it's not flat but scaling (to appreciable numbers), like Knowledge Devotion.
Of course, the best feats are those that expand your options, so you can do stuff you couldn't do before.

Well, for me, the best feats do both. It's why I love Incarnum feats so much. And why I made a pile of feat chain condensing, then made Improved versions of two of those feats that do significantly different stuff from the initial version that fit the rest of the chain. One of them has accurate ranged attacks as the point.

Like, a feat chain should accelerate number scaling, or add new, related abilities. Either you have the later versions of a feat make the numbers get bigger faster, or the first feat gives numbers the second scales with and the third feat adds a new feature to the second feat's new thing. Or you can switch up the order of those.

For example, a feat chain that works out fairly well would be Power Attack into Cleave into something that lets you do a thing in place of a normal attack, like an improved Sunder or a Feint. Or the way the Weapon Focus tree gives new effects as you grab more feats, like adding accuracy, then damage, then critical hit range.

[Thurbane]

Battle Dancer PHB II is just plain bad, due to it's wording: it doesn't stack with the benefit you'll already be getting (as your own ally) from your music in the first place.

[LordOfCain]

The temp HP hurt it substantially, true.
However! There are theoretical builds where it actually makes sense(for example, a Pain mastery/vigor based psionic character with the incarnum PP recharge trick - it saves a feat in a very feat-heavy build, which is nice).

Me, I hate spring attack for the stupid prereqs as much as the next guy, but I've used it in a build I've played so I fail the thread's premise with regard to it.

Something I have never and will never take is the Open Minded feat. If anything you want to trade THE OTHER WAY around.

P.S. For those bashing on epic prowess/armor skin. They do allow something that was not possible before epic levels and it's not like they ran out of ideas, they are just feats that have to be there within a space where there is no level cap. They fill the same role as the "Great X", but for other character attributes.
I've taken Open Minded quite a few times actually. This is because I often run low skill point characters trying to get into PrCs that require lots of skill points.

[icefractal]

Re: Blinding Speed, I'm pretty sure it was written for the 3.0 version of Haste and updated in a half-assed way. If it was "Gain an extra standard action 5/day, also some AC and attack bonuses during those rounds" then that seems pretty decent.


If Spring Attack was more like Flyby Attack (no prerequisite feats, take any standard action) it would be pretty good. Although more for casters than for most melee. ToB classes could benefit from it though.

Even as is, I wouldn't quite put it in the "never" category. It's pretty niche, but for the right character (someone who can work with one attack/round and has the ability to retreat to hiding / out of range using SA) then it could be useful.

[Thurbane]

There's a few redundant feats I would never take:



Supernatural Opportunist: requires Supernatural Crusader (which in itself is a pretty terrible feat). Supernatural Instincts - same result, only requires Combat Reflexes (which, if you're making an AoO build, you'll have anyway).
Unnatural Will: Cha to saves against fear effects. Force of Personality - Cha to save against all mind affecting attacks, with less prereqs.

[Marlowe]

It seems to me that you don't automatically fall prone when it procs. Because you are never unconscious, you never fall down. Sure, you could do it intentionally, but then you're crawling, which iirc allows you to move at 5' per round. You could try the withdraw action, but that's not always enough.

I admit it's been years since I read the feat description and remembered it poorly.

You can choose to fall unconscious(but stable rather than dying) or act as disabled. Which is best depends on the circumstances, but it in no way should further imperil you unless you make a poor decision.

It's not a GOOD feat, but it gives you options in a circumstance where you otherwise have none. At the very least it means you auto-stabilise.

[Alabenson]

As far as I'm concerned, Toughness is my personal gold-standard for terribleness feat-wise. Even when I was a complete novice who thought Monks were awesome and Druids were underpowered I could see that Toughness was a waste of a Feat.

[Stealth Marmot]

As far as I'm concerned, Toughness is my personal gold-standard for terribleness feat-wise. Even when I was a complete novice who thought Monks were awesome and Druids were underpowered I could see that Toughness was a waste of a Feat.

Toughness got such a bad rep that a designer actually addressed it by name and said that one of the problems with designing things like feats is you cant just add a note saying "This is for character X"

He basically said flat out that Toughness was for a low level (level 1 or 2) wizard in order to have extra hit points to survive to higher levels.

What the designer failed to realize is that players will plan ahead and the idea of a feat being wasted on the temporary won't be well appreciated.

[Kurald Galain]

Toughness got such a bad rep that a designer actually addressed it by name and said that one of the problems with designing things like feats is you cant just add a note saying "This is for character X"

If you're writing the rulebooks, what's stopping you from doing precisely that?

Anyway, such feats become slightly better if retraining rules are in use. Still not great, mind you.

[Pugwampy]

What the designer failed to realize is that players will plan ahead and the idea of a feat being wasted on the temporary won't be well appreciated.

I think PF did it right . combine toughness and improved toughness feat.

I dont have a problem with someone taking toughness to only swop it out later for something better . All my training wheel heroes have toughness .

[Alabenson]

If you're writing the rulebooks, what's stopping you from doing precisely that?

Anyway, such feats become slightly better if retraining rules are in use. Still not great, mind you.

The problem with that is it's still a feat that will be irrelevant by level 2-3. Furthermore, the retraining rules didn't exist until the PHB 2 came out, so that leaves you with a feat that's utterly useless for 95% of all PCs as written and wasn't advisable for the remaining 5% until a set of optional rules are released 6 years later.

[Stealth Marmot]

I think PF did it right . combine toughness and improved toughness feat.

I dont have a problem with someone taking toughness to only swop it out later for something better . All my training wheel heroes have toughness .

Pathfinder did a lot of things just a little better than 3.5. Mainly because it gained the benefit of learning from 3.5s mistakes without having to grandfather things in.

[Bucky]

Diehard has a solid niche in level 1-3 solo play, where down = dead anyway.

[GilesTheCleric]

I admit it's been years since I read the feat description and remembered it poorly.

You can choose to fall unconscious(but stable rather than dying) or act as disabled. Which is best depends on the circumstances, but it in no way should further imperil you unless you make a poor decision.

It's not a GOOD feat, but it gives you options in a circumstance where you otherwise have none. At the very least it means you auto-stabilise.

No worries; we all do that. I recently got some egg on my face from misremembering Fabricate as doing what Major Creation did.

Can you choose to fall unconscious? I've never seen a rule for that (besides a bluff), but if you can, then yes, this feat does get a bit better.

Let me clarify my position so that we're both definitely on the same page here, since I was a bit vague in my OP. Diehard is a terrible, terrible feat because it leaves you up and a threat when you're at -1 to -9 HP. In a game where a level 1 orc with a greatsword is dealing 8.5+ average damage, that means that you're one successful hit away from death, basically as soon as level 1. At higher levels, it's either not going to be of any use at all, because odds are you got taken from eg. 25 HP down to -15 in one round, or it's going to again lead you to a situation in which you die after one hit (eg. you don't have Heal available yet, or you're a class that can't natively planeshift/ teleport).

In my opinion, a character is worse off when they have this feat than they are when they don't. Because without a way to intentionally choose to go unconscious, you are still an active threat to your foes, and thus liable for more damage. And, if this feat procced, it was because you were within damage range of foes, and probably still are after it has procced. That leaves you with very few options -- bluff that you've been KO'd, try a withdraw action, or cast a spell/ use an item that solves the problem. You're right that those are more options than you had before, but I would argue that having those options is worse than not having them. When you're laid out on the ground, KOed, foes have no reason to waste actions on you. They can turn their attention to the other active threats, then come around and do CdG cleanup when the fight is won.

I will admit that gaining those options can sometimes be a good thing -- it allows you to possibly cast one more spell. If that spell is something that affects the enemies, then it could be the tipping point for the battle. It might also just seal your fate for being killed when the enemy initiative comes up again. If you teleport out, then that's pretty handy. But, was it worth spending a feat on Diehard over Craft Contingent Spell, Quicken Spell, Extra Spell, Craft X Magic Item, Planar Touchstone: (Can't remember the one that heals you when you go into negatives, but there is one), or any other number of feats with the same result but without the drawbacks or potential failure of Diehard's even proccing in the first place?

Auto-stabilising is a small benefit to this feat that I hadn't considered; thank you for pointing it out.

[Arbane]

P.S.: one person on these honourable boards - I don't remember who exactly - has at one time taken the cake with this comment:
I'd heard that PF nerfed Power Attack, but I didn't think that the nerfing was so hard that you'd want to wish the feat on your own worst enemy.

Just so you know, this made me chortle out loud.


Pathfinder did a lot of things just a little better than 3.5. Mainly because it gained the benefit of learning from 3.5s mistakes without having to grandfather things in.

Then again, someone in the PF crew also thought Sacred Geometry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/) was a good idea to print. And that feat's an unusual one for this list - it's not useless, it's actually probably overpowered, but it's so weird and complicated to use that even most optimizers deliberately ignore it.

[Alabenson]

Then again, someone in the PF crew also thought Sacred Geometry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/) was a good idea to print. And that feat's an unusual one for this list - it's not useless, it's actually probably overpowered, but it's so weird and complicated to use that even most optimizers deliberately ignore it.

:smalleek: I refuse to believe that that feat wasn't an April Fools joke of some kind.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Sacred Geometry is awesome. Crazy, and don't let it fall into the hands of a slow arithmetician, but awesome. I would use it on any character with skill points to spare.

[Buufreak]

Sacred Geometry is awesome. Crazy, and don't let it fall into the hands of a slow arithmetician, but awesome. I would use it on any caster with skill points to spare.

ftfy, mate. ;)

[ExLibrisMortis]

ftfy, mate. ;)
Well yes, I suppose my psions would need something else :smalltongue:. Then again, I might take it anyway, just for the awesome!

[Firechanter]

"Sacred Geometry -- because Wizards still weren't nearly powerful enough." :smallmad:

Srsly, with that feat, Pathfinder jumped the shark for me when it was released.

[Zanos]

Then again, someone in the PF crew also thought Sacred Geometry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/) was a good idea to print. And that feat's an unusual one for this list - it's not useless, it's actually probably overpowered, but it's so weird and complicated to use that even most optimizers deliberately ignore it.
IIRC by the time you get 12 ranks there is no set of numbers that is impossible to solve for any spell level, and someone even made a python solver for the feat.

[Stegyre]

Diehard has a solid niche in level 1-3 solo play, where down = dead anyway.
No, not even then. If you thought the ability might be useful, you would take Shape Soulmeld (Rage Claws) or Shape Soulmeld (Blood Talons) and get something better (full action economy when at negative HP, instead of only a standard or a move) and cheaper (no prereq feat).

[Thurbane]

As far as I'm concerned, Toughness is my personal gold-standard for terribleness feat-wise. Even when I was a complete novice who thought Monks were awesome and Druids were underpowered I could see that Toughness was a waste of a Feat.

One of my first house rules was to allow Improved Toughness to count as Toughness for any and all reqs.


Toughness got such a bad rep that a designer actually addressed it by name and said that one of the problems with designing things like feats is you cant just add a note saying "This is for character X"

He basically said flat out that Toughness was for a low level (level 1 or 2) wizard in order to have extra hit points to survive to higher levels.

What the designer failed to realize is that players will plan ahead and the idea of a feat being wasted on the temporary won't be well appreciated.

Re-training rules help with that a little. Not much, but a little.


Can you choose to fall unconscious? I've never seen a rule for that (besides a bluff), but if you can, then yes, this feat does get a bit better.

I'm not sure if it's RAW, but that's how we've always played it.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'm not sure if it's RAW, but that's how we've always played it.

What was your ruling? Bluff check? Will save? Autohypnosis check? Or no check required? Did it work well for your group?

[Bucky]

Fair point on Diehard vs. Shape Soulmeld. I don't usually have access to Shape Soulmeld, so I didn't think of it.

[Venger]

No, not even then. If you thought the ability might be useful, you would take Shape Soulmeld (Rage Claws) or Shape Soulmeld (Blood Talons) and get something better (full action economy when at negative HP, instead of only a standard or a move) and cheaper (no prereq feat).

If your goal is longevity, you're likely better off with the astral vambraces. prevention vs cure and everything, and they make a big difference at very low levels

[Thurbane]

What was your ruling? Bluff check? Will save? Autohypnosis check? Or no check required? Did it work well for your group?

It didn't come up a lot, and no one has taken the feat for a long time, but I think we allowed it to auto succeed. It saved character lives a couple of times at lower levels.

These days, I'd probably call for a Bluff vs.Sense Motive or similar.

[Stegyre]

If your goal is longevity, you're likely better off with the astral vambraces. prevention vs cure and everything, and they make a big difference at very low levels
Oh, I'm in full agreement. That's exactly what I do shape in those situations.

The issue here, however, was whether Diehard had any niche at all, and the answer is that it doesn't.
Interesting sidestory: Diehard actually came up in a current pbp game -- a long-running Age of Worms game. In the battle with the Ulgustrassa (sp?), our main basher was in the negatives and only kept alive by the cleric's delay death. Because he also had Diehard, he could still act -- sort of -- and we managed to smash the beast, but I (as the party meldshaper) was appalled that he had Diehard rather than a good soulmeld.

He had a valid excuse: in his case, Diehard was a class feature of his PrC and not something he'd actually paid a feat for.

One of my first house rules was to allow Improved Toughness to count as Toughness for any and all reqs.
I've seen people on the forum even combine the two, and it's still a long way from overpowered.


I should make a contribution instead of just commenting on the works of others: Improved Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFeint). Remember the last time you feinted in combat? Me neither. In fact [OT rant] the whole feint mechanic is borked. Here's a combat tactic that by RAW is only useful against high-Dex opponents, the very people who should be the most resistant to a feint. Your tank in plate armor and tower shield, with Dex 10? He doesn't give a bent copper if you feint him.[/rant]

[Jack_Simth]

I should make a contribution instead of just commenting on the works of others: Improved Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFeint). Remember the last time you feinted in combat? Me neither. In fact [OT rant] the whole feint mechanic is borked. Here's a combat tactic that by RAW is only useful against high-Dex opponents, the very people who should be the most resistant to a feint. Your tank in plate armor and tower shield, with Dex 10? He doesn't give a bent copper if you feint him.[/rant]
He does if there's no other "deny dex" situation, he's not flanked, and it's a Rogue who just Feinted. Sure, his AC doesn't change, but suddenly he's subject to Sneak Attack and Crippling Strike. It's pretty niche, I'll grant you, but it's there.

[Stealth Marmot]

I've seen people on the forum even combine the two, and it's still a long way from overpowered.

That's actually exactly what it is in Pathfinder. 1 HP a level with the first 3 paid immediately even if you are level 1 or 2.

A much better feat that scales, which most feats don't.

[ericgrau]

It explains why Weapon Focus and Dodge are bad, but Improved Initiative is worth taking.
It's actually not. Its popularity comes from forums where arguments usually speak in absolutes. So the words "improved initiative" are typically paired with the words "go(ing) first". It doesn't make you go first. It's a mediocre feat.

There are a lot of bad skill feats in core, and plenty of core feats that don't hold up to most splatbook feats. But I wonder which splatbook feats are truly bad.

Um how about arcane accompaniment. For a spell slot my bardic music lasts 9 rounds instead of 5 after I stop singing. Because in round 7 of the fight it will be super important to have that +2. Even on a music focused bard I don't see it.

[heavyfuel]

Im surprised no one has said Einhander. Its supposed to be THE feat for swashbuckling with a sword in one hand and an empty off-had, but with terrible prereqs and worse bonuses, the feat is completely useless. I have never seen anyone pick up this feat, and for good reason.

[stack]

On the topic of sacred geometry, I will never take it for the simple fact that I do not want to play in a game in which it is not banned.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the topic of sacred geometry, I will never take it for the simple fact that I do not want to play in a game in which it is not banned.

I definitely get where you're coming from. In 3.5 you have to build your entire character around that kind of metamagic cost mitigation. It's nuts.

Beside that, who wants to have to download a piece of software or actually crunch the nubmers to see if it actually works?

And if I'm allowed to be very petty for a moment, prime numbers just bug me for some reason. I acknowledge that this is wholly irrational but there it is.

[Marlowe]

What was your ruling? Bluff check? Will save? Autohypnosis check? Or no check required? Did it work well for your group?

It's right in the feat description.


Benefit

When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die.
Normal

A character without this feat who is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points is unconscious and dying.

[Zancloufer]

I should make a contribution instead of just commenting on the works of others: Improved Feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedFeint). Remember the last time you feinted in combat? Me neither. In fact [OT rant] the whole feint mechanic is borked. Here's a combat tactic that by RAW is only useful against high-Dex opponents, the very people who should be the most resistant to a feint. Your tank in plate armor and tower shield, with Dex 10? He doesn't give a bent copper if you feint him.[/rant]

As has been stated before it can be useful for characters with things like sneak attack and sudden strike. Being able to make an opponent flatfooted isn't too shabby. It could probably use a small buff, but it is not terrible.

Was bonkers good in NWN 2 where instead of a standard action, it just cost your first attack that round (or in case of 1 attack, the previous round's attack).

[Thurbane]

I liked how in the ToEE computer game (very early 3.5), they allowed Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack to work together. Once you get your hands on Fragarach, you become quite the force of nature...

[etrpgb]

Toughness in any game where you expected to play past level 1.
In my game we got inspiration by Improved Toughness and setup that Toughness gives you 1 extra HP per HD/level (min 3).

I'd vote for "Second Wind" from the Miniature Handbook; sounds really cool until you read that it simply gives you the ability of healing your constitution modifier of HP every day... When a feat is less than a cheap wand you see how the authors are completely clueless.

Special mention to Weapon Supremacy, incredible weird for a fighter feat the powers are actually nice; the prerequisites make the feat impossible to use. Again, or authors are clueless or they hate fighters or they like to troll us, or all of those.

[daremetoidareyo]

Dire flail Mind Blade, Dwarven Urgrosh Mind Blade, Two-Bladed Mind Blade, Monk's Spade Mind Blade, and Orc Double Axe Mind Blade.
A bizarre collection of weapons you may have forgotten even exist that only work for a class you almost certainly will never use.

Each feat lets you shape your mind blade into one of these double weapons. Weirdly enough each weapon has a line that you can't use them as double weapons if holding in one hand, which is an unnecessary rule since they're all two-handed weapons, so by definition are completely unusable with only 1 hand. The damage for all of these is unimpressive. None of them mention, but going off of the general rules for fighting with 2 mind blades, each end has reduced bonus, and you can't assign different enchantments to the 2 ends. The real kicker is that these are the only alternate shapes your mindblade can take besides short sword, longsword, and bastard sword. You can't get any actually useful Mind blades, there's no general feat for just let you shape it to what you want. At least they don't require proficiency with the weapon.

A warblade dip makes these feats amazing. You can make mindblades of amazing e proc weapons using the weapon aptitude ability. Goodbye dwarven urgrosh, hello caber. Goodbye twobladed mindblade, hello harpoon.

[The Viscount]

A warblade dip makes these feats amazing. You can make mindblades of amazing e proc weapons using the weapon aptitude ability. Goodbye dwarven urgrosh, hello caber. Goodbye twobladed mindblade, hello harpoon.

You cannot do this. Weapon Aptitude requires that you take a feat that applies to a specific weapon, like weapon focus. The mind blade feats modify a class feature, so cannot be used in this manner. Even if they did, the ability to shape your mind blade into a weapon would require permissive text to that effect.

[Particle_Man]

For pathfinder: combat expertise. Now that dirty fighting exists to circumvent it, there is never time I would bother with CE.

But combat expertise is a prereq feat for improved dirty fighting and greater dirty fighting.

Diehard in pathfinder might be useful for orc fighters. I believe that their favoured class benefit gives them a 2 for 1 higher ceiling before death strikes (so if you have diehard, effectively 2 more hp per level).

Toughness is useful to me as lazy DM when I can't be bothered to put feats on my monsters, so I just say "Ah screw it, it has 12 more hp. Done". :smallsmile:

I think there are some "superseded" feats out there, like Mounted Archery cutting your penalty for firing a missle weapon while mounted in half, when there is another feat out there that removed that penalty entirely (and I don't think the first feat was a prereq for the second).

Speaking of prereqs, IIRC there was a small time-window when improved feint was pretty cool, because when combined with a class ability (some sort of knife fighter prestige class) pre-errata you could bluff as a free action (rogues rejoice!).

[Zanos]

But combat expertise is a prereq feat for improved dirty fighting and greater dirty fighting.
stack is referring to the Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat/) feat, which counts as a bunch of stuff for the purposes of prerequisites. You're thinking of the Improved Dirty Trick feat line. Which Dirty Fighting will qualify you for.

At least, I think that's what you both are thinking.

[stack]

stack is referring to the Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat/) feat, which counts as a bunch of stuff for the purposes of prerequisites. You're thinking of the Improved Dirty Trick feat line. Which Dirty Fighting while qualify you for.

At least, I think that's what you both are thinking.

You are correct.

[etrpgb]

Secret of Firebrand Feat, DR306 p98. Your Paladin receive guns from his god. It's really cool in a way, but it is the kind of feat that opens so much strange implications on the settings that I would not dare even to ask my master.

[Thurbane]

Speaking of Greyhawk feats, Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Yes, Int to HP is nice for low- or no-Con characters. But the fluff? I don't think I can even crack a joke about it on a G-rated forum! :smallredface:

[Jack_Simth]

Speaking of Greyhawk feats, Faerie Mysteries Initiate. Yes, Int to HP is nice for low- or no-Con characters. But the fluff? I don't think I can even crack a joke about it on a G-rated forum! :smallredface:
Is there something wrong with "You and your partner sing in beautiful harmony of the triumph of Corellon Larethian over Gruumsh One-Eye, extolling the virtues of elves and enumerating the evils of orcs and goblins" that I'm missing? It's just a duet....

[ericgrau]

In my game we got inspiration by Improved Toughness and setup that Toughness gives you 1 extra HP per HD/level (min 3).

I'd vote for "Second Wind" from the Miniature Handbook; sounds really cool until you read that it simply gives you the ability of healing your constitution modifier of HP every day... When a feat is less than a cheap wand you see how the authors are completely clueless.

Special mention to Weapon Supremacy, incredible weird for a fighter feat the powers are actually nice; the prerequisites make the feat impossible to use. Again, or authors are clueless or they hate fighters or they like to troll us, or all of those.
Second wind is a free action. Cheap wands are standard actions. So it's more similar to a 3,000 gp wand of close wounds (immediate action). Now as for optimizing it: Even on a con focused build you already have plenty of hp so a bit more doesn't help much. For most other builds it might reach 5-7 HP and start at 2-3 HP. Which is effectively added to your max HP for one fight a day thanks to the free action, similar to toughness. So it's still pretty bad, just not ridiculously horrible like a standard action to heal a few HP would be.

Weapon supremacy: All the pre-req feats are equal or better than core feats, so those aren't too bad. The various bonuses are likewise so-so, about as good as anything in core. So if anything the feat isn't bad, it just doesn't suffer from power creep. The harshest part would be requiring fighter 18. Again, not bad in core, but requiring level 18 in general means this may as well be an epic feat. So then the bar gets raised now that we compare to epic feats and this feat goes from perfectly fine to a little weak. Still not the worst in the world.

[Thurbane]

Maybe roll Toughness, Endurance, Great Fortitude and Second Wind all into one feat. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Then again, someone in the PF crew also thought Sacred Geometry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/) was a good idea to print. And that feat's an unusual one for this list - it's not useless, it's actually probably overpowered, but it's so weird and complicated to use that even most optimizers deliberately ignore it.


:smalleek: I refuse to believe that that feat wasn't an April Fools joke of some kind.


Sacred Geometry is awesome. Crazy, and don't let it fall into the hands of a slow arithmetician, but awesome. I would use it on any character with skill points to spare.


"Sacred Geometry -- because Wizards still weren't nearly powerful enough." :smallmad:

Srsly, with that feat, Pathfinder jumped the shark for me when it was released.

My personal approach is to just inflict bludgeoning damage to my own cranium until all knowledge of that feat floopity blurble shwunk.



And if I'm allowed to be very petty for a moment, prime numbers just bug me for some reason. I acknowledge that this is wholly irrational but there it is.

Technically it is quite rational :smallbiggrin:

[Deophaun]

Unnatural Will: Cha to saves against fear effects. Force of Personality - Cha to save against all mind affecting attacks, with less prereqs.
[/LIST]
Except to never take the feat you must also never PrC into Dread Witch, which gives it to you for free.

[Venger]

Is there something wrong with "You and your partner sing in beautiful harmony of the triumph of Corellon Larethian over Gruumsh One-Eye, extolling the virtues of elves and enumerating the evils of orcs and goblins" that I'm missing? It's just a duet....

He's probably referring to the "passion" option, the only effect from FMI that anyone ever actually takes. til now, I didn't actually know other options existed.

[daremetoidareyo]

You cannot do this. Weapon Aptitude requires that you take a feat that applies to a specific weapon, like weapon focus. The mind blade feats modify a class feature, so cannot be used in this manner. Even if they did, the ability to shape your mind blade into a weapon would require permissive text to that effect.

Dwarven urgrosh mind blade is a feat that applies to a single weapon. It totally falls under warblade's aptitude. It adds that weapon to available choices for your mind blade. Just because the weapon interacts with a class feature doesn't bar it from being affected.

This reading is crazy restrictive: Double steel strike would then be disallowed from working on a warblade 1/ monk x? Are you really going to tell that monk that he can't flurry with a blowgun instead of a stupid twobladed sword?

Unless your stance is that lightning maces and boomerang daze are unusable with warblades aptitude ability also. Leaving only weapon focus, specialization and exotic weapon proficiency as the only feats that warblade can aptitude with.

[Zanos]

He's probably referring to the "passion" option, the only effect from FMI that anyone ever actually takes. til now, I didn't actually know other options existed.
You retain the benefit until you do the faerie mysteries again, so you only have to do it once. Years ago. When you were younger and more impressionable.

[Deophaun]

Double steel strike would then be disallowed from working on a warblade 1/ monk x? Are you really going to tell that monk that he can't flurry with a blowgun instead of a stupid twobladed sword?Yes. Especially because...

Unless your stance is that lightning maces and boomerang daze are unusable with warblades aptitude ability also.
When choosing among competing interpretations, the one that results in infinite attacks is likely wrong.

Leaving only weapon focus, specialization and exotic weapon proficiency as the only feats that warblade can aptitude with.
Devastating Critical, Instant Reload, Improved Critical, Power Critical, Sanctify Martial Strike...

[Dunsparce]

Drift Magic. I STILL don't get it, it feels like they left out a lot of important info, like clarifying what spells are actually affected by the feat, among other things.

[The Viscount]

Dwarven urgrosh mind blade is a feat that applies to a single weapon. It totally falls under warblade's aptitude. It adds that weapon to available choices for your mind blade. Just because the weapon interacts with a class feature doesn't bar it from being affected.

This reading is crazy restrictive: Double steel strike would then be disallowed from working on a warblade 1/ monk x? Are you really going to tell that monk that he can't flurry with a blowgun instead of a stupid twobladed sword?

Unless your stance is that lightning maces and boomerang daze are unusable with warblades aptitude ability also. Leaving only weapon focus, specialization and exotic weapon proficiency as the only feats that warblade can aptitude with.

I completely agree that double steel strike would work with weapon aptitude, as would lightning mace and boomerang daze. I'm drawing objection to using aptitude here on the basis that a soulknife doesn't actually wield a short sword, longsword, bastard sword, etc. They shape their mind blade in a manner that it functions as these weapons. I know that you are even granted proficiency, but I'm not sure that wording of allowing your weapon to be shaped into the weapon specified is enough to work with weapon aptitude. Certainly you could use aptitude on any of these feats to grant you proficiency with any given weapon (after an hour) but as for turning your mind blade into it, I'm not convinced. We'll have to simply agree to disagree.

Back on topic, Tormtor School, if only because it means you have to sit down with the DM and a bunch of books to decide what kind of weapon the javelin is in melee.

[Thurbane]

You retain the benefit until you do the faerie mysteries again, so you only have to do it once. Years ago. When you were younger and more impressionable.

It's almost up there with Lich Loved.

Almost.