Supporting the Giant

[ZMiles]

So--I've already bought and enjoyed all 8 of the books (1-5, Origins of PCs, Start of Darkness, and Snips Snails). I want to support the Giant further though. I know he doesn't have a Paypal or Patreon because he thought fans might act entitled, so are there other ways to support him?

I was thinking of buying some of the books again and donating them to a library, but I'm not sure if libraries take indie published books. Has anyone tried this?

(I should probably note, I mean this in a "I've enjoyed the Giant's works for many years and want to support him because I believe he deserves it" sense, and not a "I want to dump money on the Giant's head to make him crank out comics faster" sense. I have no complaints or objections to the pace of the comic; I just want to support the Giant.)

[Quild]

I think that The Giant occasionally refuses this kind of offer.

But There are ton of available goodies on the shop (mugs, t-shirt, laptop skins, ornaments, calendars...).
You might be interested in some and he does make money with that. It looks like a win-win situation, doesn't it?

[martianmister]

This thread again? :smallsigh: Just buy his merchandise.

[JobsforFun]

I think that The Giant occasionally refuses this kind of offer.

But There are ton of available goodies on the shop (mugs, t-shirt, laptop skins, ornaments, calendars...).
You might be interested in some and he does make money with that. It looks like a win-win situation, doesn't it?

I'd do this ^ it is always nice to support your favorite authors! I am tempted to buy myself a shirt ;).

But hey, I wouldn't rule out the library thing, if they let you donate them for kids or whoever to check out and read it might bring new people into reading OOTS or even playing DnD who didn't even know about it.

(but it is up to you :)

[hroþila]

The short PDF stories at Gumroad are pay what you want, dunno how much of it would go to the Giant if you chose to pay $100 for one of them but hey.

[littlebum2002]

I was amazed to see that only 4% of the people who read the comic buy merchandise. I guess I've been in the forum echo chamber so long I've forgotten that the vast majority of the readers don't use the forum, so even though the people here are more likely to buy merchandise, that isn't necessarily true for the average reader.

My only regret is that I didn't know what Kickstarter was at the time, and thought it was a website full of scammers trying to make easy money, so I didn't back the project and then now I have to wait extremely not patiently for each PDF to come out (I WANT TO READ THERKLA SO BAD!!!!). But that's my fault so I live with it.

Anyway I'm a 4%er and proud of it! We should make a signature block for all the "4%ers" who are proud to be supporting the comic.

[Gray Mage]

So--I've already bought and enjoyed all 8 of the books (1-5, Origins of PCs, Start of Darkness, and Snips Snails). I want to support the Giant further though. I know he doesn't have a Paypal or Patreon because he thought fans might act entitled, so are there other ways to support him?

I was thinking of buying some of the books again and donating them to a library, but I'm not sure if libraries take indie published books. Has anyone tried this?

(I should probably note, I mean this in a "I've enjoyed the Giant's works for many years and want to support him because I believe he deserves it" sense, and not a "I want to dump money on the Giant's head to make him crank out comics faster" sense. I have no complaints or objections to the pace of the comic; I just want to support the Giant.)

I see no reason why your local library wouldn't take indie books, but the best way for you to be sure is to contact them and ask. And I think it's very nice of you to share something you enjoy with others. :smallsmile:

[Peelee]

Could always donate to a charity in his name, or call a library and ask if they would take book donations.

[ZMiles]

Looked through the merchant site, and while I can't really get physical objects for myself right now--cramped living quarters--I saw there are PDF calendars I hadn't known about and which I'll get. So thanks for the tip.

As for libraries--good point. I'll contact a couple that I like and see if they would be interested.

Thanks!

[Chei]

I was amazed to see that only 4% of the people who read the comic buy merchandise. I guess I've been in the forum echo chamber so long I've forgotten that the vast majority of the readers don't use the forum, so even though the people here are more likely to buy merchandise, that isn't necessarily true for the average reader.

My only regret is that I didn't know what Kickstarter was at the time, and thought it was a website full of scammers trying to make easy money, so I didn't back the project and then now I have to wait extremely not patiently for each PDF to come out (I WANT TO READ THERKLA SO BAD!!!!). But that's my fault so I live with it.

Anyway I'm a 4%er and proud of it! We should make a signature block for all the "4%ers" who are proud to be supporting the comic.

Ugh, the Therkla comic was so good. I think it's the best one released so far.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Definitely if you can do it, getting the pdfs on top of hard copies can't hurt if you want a way to enjoy the comics when you can't lug around your collection. You can also buy more copies of the books and donate them somewhere or give them to a friend who might enjoy them.

Also, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303235-Tip-Jar&p=16023362#post16023362) are The Giant's thought on the subject.

[littlebum2002]

Ugh, the Therkla comic was so good. I think it's the best one released so far.

:annoyed:

That's what I've been told.

[NerdyKris]

Always call and ask before buying books to donate. And actually, they're probably going to prefer cash.

Anytime you're dealing with donations, call and ask what they need first. A large amount of donations for any charity just end up in the trash. Especially libraries, which are already pressed for space.

That said, buy other merchandise like mugs and t-shirts and such.

[martianmister]

I just found a way to cheat the system give Rich money. You just have to buy PDFs repeatedly and then delete it.

[Peelee]

Today I learned the Therkla PDF is not yet available to buy outside of Kickstarter.

[Mightymosy]

Patreon

You wrote that he decided against it, and I wondered why (if it's true)?

I wish to voice my opinion that it would be my preferred way of payment.
I just don't care for anything besides the main comic and the bonus stories. I don't need figures, calendars, stickers, games, etc. etc. etc.

When the kickstarter was going, i bought some package that included some stuff, just so because (i tried to get the package that included mostly books, so I got most of what I wanted).

But I generally bought it because I hoped it would help the Giant sustain his life and therefore be able to produce comics at a quicker rate as a result.
Ok, so that didn't happen because things calculated themselves differently afterwards, ok. No problem. That's the way life goes, and I can surely say happened to me as well.

Still I would highly recommend Patreon. Set up the way that money flows everytime a new comics is posted, would be the fairest thing to all people who wish to support the comic, and don't care about the rest.
Give Patreon people the comic 1 day earlier or something as "gift", and that's it. No obligations.

Alternatively, I don't think a prescription model is as bad as it seems, old fashioned it may be. Yeah, 4% and all that, but I bet everyone on this forum wants to know how the story ends. We have over 1000 pages of free sample to decide whether we want to buy the rest of the story.

[Mightymosy]

Today I learned the Therkla PDF is not yet available to buy outside of Kickstarter.

A pity because it's a good one. Re-read it recently.

[ZMiles]

Mightymosy:

Rich has said in a previous post (linked upthread) that he doesn't have a tip jar or things like that because, in his experience, that can result in people getting entitled and annoying. People that donate money will sometimes then complain that the comic isn't coming fast enough for them (e.g., "I gave you $X, where's my comic?") which can be a drag. So instead, Rich gets money by selling products, so when people give him money they get the reward right away (or after it ships) and there's no remaining "hey, you still owe me, so I want faster comics" thing going on.

[Mightymosy]

Mightymosy:

Rich has said in a previous post (linked upthread) that he doesn't have a tip jar or things like that because, in his experience, that can result in people getting entitled and annoying. People that donate money will sometimes then complain that the comic isn't coming fast enough for them (e.g., "I gave you $X, where's my comic?") which can be a drag. So instead, Rich gets money by selling products, so when people give him money they get the reward right away (or after it ships) and there's no remaining "hey, you still owe me, so I want faster comics" thing going on.

People ARE already annoying, why not earn money enduring it?

Anyway, as far as i understand you can set up Patreon so that money is only collected when strips show up.
No comic, no pay.
Comic, pay.
Everyone happy.

[martianmister]

It would kill the readership and cause a huge drop on advertising and merchandise revenues.

[Nightcanon]

I was amazed to see that only 4% of the people who read the comic buy merchandise. I guess I've been in the forum echo chamber so long I've forgotten that the vast majority of the readers don't use the forum, so even though the people here are more likely to buy merchandise, that isn't necessarily true for the average reader.

My only regret is that I didn't know what Kickstarter was at the time, and thought it was a website full of scammers trying to make easy money, so I didn't back the project and then now I have to wait extremely not patiently for each PDF to come out (I WANT TO READ THERKLA SO BAD!!!!). But that's my fault so I live with it.

Anyway I'm a 4%er and proud of it! We should make a signature block for all the "4%ers" who are proud to be supporting the comic.

I regret that I missed the Kickstarter too (I think I arrived sometime during the Hiatus of The Thumb), and wish I had some mechanism off access, though I can see why commitments to KS supporters make that impossible. With regard to the 4%, on the bright side that actually show the potential for expansion, both into the 96% who haven't bought and within the 4% who have bought something but aren't compleatists (I have the first 2 books and OTOoPCs & SoD as PDFs, and will buy the rest in time as circumstances allow). Hopefully there are thousands of folk like me who will be good for another ~$50 even if Rich doesn't produce a singoe further thing.

[Peelee]

I just don't get what's wrong with buying a pay-what-you-want PDF and just paying a lot for it.

[littlebum2002]

Everyone happy.

Except Rich.

I'm 1000% positive that someone could create a script that follows the OOTS RSS feed and, every time it updates, buys a Belkar PDF at whatever price you want, then deletes it. Or, you could just go to Gumroad yourself and buy one every time a strip comes out. Either way, you want something that the creator of the strip doesn't want, so instead of presuming that you know what he wants more than he does, why don't you just find a creative way to pay him every time a comic comes out that isn't so insulting to the person creating it?


I just don't get what's wrong with buying a pay-what-you-want PDF and just paying a lot for it.

Exactly

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It would kill the readership and cause a huge drop on advertising and merchandise revenues.

This does not follow. Setting up a Patreon does not mean not selling merchandise or taking out the adverts. If all he did was set a Patreon for "charges your credit card for each page published", $1 minimum, no perks, people who wanted to could sign up to provide a economic incentive to generating more freely available comics.

Yes, they could also buy a pdf and delete every time, but lets be honest here: that is a bother - first rule of salesmanship is to make it easy for the other person to give you the money. The strength of Patreon is that it handles to boring bits for you. (As to littlebum's idea, more than once my RSS feed has got a bit confused and re-listed the entire run of the comic as if it was "new". I would not trust a script that run on RSS logic, for fear I'd suddenly would be charged $1066+).

Please note, however, I am NOT recommending the Patreon. We do not have anywhere near enough facts on the finances of the comic to make a rational recommendation.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

This does not follow. Setting up a Patreon does not mean not selling merchandise or taking out the adverts. If all he did was set a Patreon for "charges your credit card for each page published", $1 minimum, no perks, people who wanted to could sign up to provide a economic incentive to generating more freely available comics.

Yes, they could also buy a pdf and delete every time, but lets be honest here: that is a bother - first rule of salesmanship is to make it easy for the other person to give you the money. The strength of Patreon is that it handles to boring bits for you. (As to littlebum's idea, more than once my RSS feed has got a bit confused and re-listed the entire run of the comic as if it was "new". I would not trust a script that run on RSS logic, for fear I'd suddenly would be charged $1066+).

Please note, however, I am NOT recommending the Patreon. We do not have anywhere near enough facts on the finances of the comic to make a rational recommendation.

Grey Wolf

I believe martian was referring to a subscription based business model.

[NerdyKris]

I just don't get what's wrong with buying a pay-what-you-want PDF and just paying a lot for it.

That's ingenious.

[Mightymosy]

It would kill the readership and cause a huge drop on advertising and merchandise revenues.

How so? The online comic still free, it's just that Patreon people might get it a little earlier (or something. They could also get sketched or blueprints or whatever else the Giant sees fit as a gift).

So the difference would be that some people like me could basically pay for something they want, at a price they want, but let the Giant decide when and what he wants to deliver nevertheless, because ultimately no one would owe anyone anything - payment is done for every instance of delivery.

And new people could still come to the comic and read it for free. No issue of acquiring new readers.

[Mightymosy]

I just don't get what's wrong with buying a pay-what-you-want PDF and just paying a lot for it.

Nothing's wrong with that, if you want to do that.

It's still not something that I would like to to do, personally. I have already paid for the books, I have paid for the bonus pdfs, so why bother buying them again?
It's not as if pumping money into kickstarter has increased comic production rate, so I simply have no incentive to spend more money "just in the hope for something happening that isn't even part of the deal".
I'd rather spend that money on charity, like the Giant recommends in the post above (and I do, although I guess I could spend a little more; need to fix that).

But spending money on something that I actively want (more comic strips)?
That sounds like a good deal.
Even if the strips wouldn't actually come out faster, and even if I could theoretically still get the same strips for free, I am still paying money for something that I actually want. Does that make sense?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

How so? The online comic still free, it's just that Patreon people might get it a little earlier (or something. They could also get sketched or blueprints or whatever else the Giant sees fit as a gift).

Many true Nerd has a fairly successful patreon where all you get is effectively a bit of author commentary once a month. Nothing more - not even advanced versions of the videos MATN produces. The Giant could easily just post a bit of commentary of whatever is on his mind once per month in the Patreon section and call it good enough. I'd probably sign up for no perks whatsoever - just have Patreon send him a buck per posted page.

But on the other paw, this might not be all that helpful to him - chances are, this would just cannibalise other income streams. If I'd paid $274 for BRitF, I'd find it hard to justify buying the book.

GW

[Mightymosy]

Except Rich.

I'm 1000% positive that someone could create a script that follows the OOTS RSS feed and, every time it updates, buys a Belkar PDF at whatever price you want, then deletes it. Or, you could just go to Gumroad yourself and buy one every time a strip comes out. Either way, you want something that the creator of the strip doesn't want, so instead of presuming that you know what he wants more than he does, why don't you just find a creative way to pay him every time a comic comes out that isn't so insulting to the person creating it?
[...]

Has Rich Burlew ever said he would be unhappy with the proposal I made?

I presume nothing except these:
- Rich Burlew wants to finish the OotS in the current format (free online webcomic)
- Rich Burew wants to earn money (among others, to pay rent and health insurance)

I don't think these assumptions are wrong, and my suggestion doesn't contradict either one.
I don't get where you get the information that Rich Burlew wouldn't like my suggestion. So, please tell me if he said that. If he doesn't like it, fine by me, it's just a suggestion. It's not as if I had to pay my rent with creating OotS.

[Mightymosy]

Many true Nerd has a fairly successful patreon where all you get is effectively a bit of author commentary once a month. Nothing more - not even advanced versions of the videos MATN produces. The Giant could easily just post a bit of commentary of whatever is on his mind once per month in the Patreon section and call it good enough. I'd probably sign up for no perks whatsoever - just have Patreon send him a buck per posted page.

But on the other paw, this might not be all that helpful to him - chances are, this would just cannibalise other income streams. If I'd paid $274 for BRitF, I'd find it hard to justify buying the book.

GW

But he already sold it to you for $274, in this scenario, and thus would have earned more than what he charges for it now.

The advantage for him would be that he had a steady income - he gets a somewhat steady sum whenever he makes a new strip. Whereas now, sales happen whenever new books or other products come out, and the income is dependant on how well it sells.

Personally, I'd also like a paper version regardless, so I might end up massively overpaying.
But supporting good art has a price, I suppose, and luckily I am not starving at the moment :smallsmile:

[Sardonic]

Has Rich Burlew ever said he would be unhappy with the proposal I made?

I presume nothing except these:
- Rich Burlew wants to finish the OotS in the current format (free online webcomic)
- Rich Burew wants to earn money (among others, to pay rent and health insurance)

I don't think these assumptions are wrong, and my suggestion doesn't contradict either one.
I don't get where you get the information that Rich Burlew wouldn't like my suggestion. So, please tell me if he said that. If he doesn't like it, fine by me, it's just a suggestion. It's not as if I had to pay my rent with creating OotS.


Yes, I don't have a tip jar or a donation button. I prefer for my income to come through the sale of items when possible, due to the fact that I cannot promise a given schedule and there will always be someone who says that I should feel obligated to do so because they spent money on me. Yes, I know that doesn't hold logical water and yes, I understand that you, personally, don't feel that way. But there are always people who do when push comes to shove. There are people who have told that the only reason they gave money to the Kickstarter was because they thought it would increase the number of comics per week, even though I never said or implied that such was even possible much less promised.


You're assuming more than you have information on. Certainly Rich wants to finish the strip, which we know because that's what he's doing, but there's no real evidence that he "wants to earn money," at least the way your proposing it. Maybe Rich is independently wealthy and giving him money is just an inconvenience to him? Maybe he's completely destitute but he likes it that way? I don't know. You don't know. All we know is what he said, which is that any benefits of having a tip jar or donate button (which smells a lot like the categories your Patreon proposal would fall into) does not outweigh the costs in Rich's mind. That's his choice, so let's leave it at that rather than trying to read his mind about how he could conceivably feel about your proposal.

Further, it's safe to assume that, if he wanted a Patreon, he would set up a Patreon.

[Mightymosy]

You're assuming more than you have information on. Certainly Rich wants to finish the strip, which we know because that's what he's doing, but there's no real evidence that he "wants to earn money," at least the way your proposing it. Maybe Rich is independently wealthy and giving him money is just an inconvenience to him? Maybe he's completely destitute but he likes it that way? I don't know. You don't know. All we know is what he said, which is that any benefits of having a tip jar or donate button (which smells a lot like the categories your Patreon proposal would fall into) does not outweigh the costs in Rich's mind. That's his choice, so let's leave it at that rather than trying to read his mind about how he could conceivably feel about your proposal.

Further, it's safe to assume that, if he wanted a Patreon, he would set up a Patreon.

Did he not say he needed to earn money (with the comic) to pay his rent and health insurance?

[Peelee]

Did he not say he needed to earn money (with the comic) to pay his rent and health insurance?

You're absolutely right. And he has set up ways to earn money. Your choices are to either go through those ways to give him money, or to not give him money. It may be inconvenient, it may be annoying, and it may be something you don't want to do. But you gotta choose one, or choose none.

[Mightymosy]

You're absolutely right. And he has set up ways to earn money. Your choices are to either go through those ways to give him money, or to not give him money. It may be inconvenient, it may be annoying, and it may be something you don't want to do. But you gotta choose one, or choose none.

Also I can make a suggestion in the case he hasn't heard of it (unlikely) or found it not convincing, in which case my voice may have some meaning to make him reconsider.
At any rate, he has the choice of doing it or not.

As Grey Wolf put it so nicely: rule number one in business is making it easy for the customer to spend money. And all Giant quotes I know off lead me to believe that he thinks of comic production as a "business".

There may be other reasons he can't do Patreon (maybe they have fees which make the calculation not pay off, maybe he can't do because of legal reasons).
It could be personal dislike of such a system - I would then still suggest reconsidering his feelings, if money is still an issue. Just a thought, nothing more. If he doesn't, I can still very much enjoy the free comic.

And I will buy the next book as well. If this is how he wants to run business, so shall it be.

[Douglas]

I believe this is still the latest comment from The Giant about Patreon:

Maybe at some future point, when all of my Kickstarter obligations are completed, I will consider Patreon.
Of course, he also goes on to say maybe at some point he'll put out digital products, and here we are with PDFs from Gumroad, so who knows when that "future point" will be. Kickstarter obligations aren't complete yet, though.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: I'm going to close this now. Support is great and pointing out the various OotS products and where they are available is helpful, but we really don't need more commentary, speculation, and opinion on Rich's business model or finances. He's aware of the models and mechanisms that exist, weighed them according to his own criteria, and chose how he wants to proceed.