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Devigor
2017-02-22, 12:58 PM
I hadn't actually asked for a review or three yet, but I've only had a couple people check out the Battle Magician (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490865-The-Battle-Magician) so far (link's in my sig). Could I get some critique on it? I'm interested purely out of curiosity, and for the sake of determining whether I should try making more 'brew... that isn't quite so campaign-specific.

khadgar567
2017-02-22, 01:17 PM
You said signiture but where

Devigor
2017-02-22, 02:24 PM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490865-The-Battle-Magician). I'll edit it into the op, too.

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-22, 04:44 PM
I'm looking over it, and I'm actually not entirely sure how it's supposed to play.

Posting this here instead of there to avoid necroing it.

Class has rogue-class chassis, except with all bad saves, can use medium armor and only simple weapons.


Level-by-level examination:

Level 1: You are better at aid another, by around 50% on average. Aid Another is a melee-range effect, so I guess you stand behind your teammate and buff them? Except that due to your poor hit points, you can be downed really fast, so you don't want to do that? And also, average BAB means you're only OK at it. Still, you can generate around 2 SP per round if you need it.
Optimization notes so far: Pathfinder: Bodyguard/Combat Reflexes + Helpful trait, letting you generate more SP per turn. Swift Aid feat later?

Level 2: You gain... some benefit with improvised weapons? You need to turn this into a bulleted list, I have no idea what I'm reading. Still, this pushes you towards grabbing whatever comes up, and helps with overcoming DR by grabbing a silver candlestick or whatever, so great!
... Except that you're still nonproficient in improvised weapons, which I barely spotted through the wall of text. But, you gain +1/2 your level to attack rolls?

Level 3: And that ability is nearly voided by this one, which tells you to only use one set of items. For a month. Okay, depending on the campaign, this could be OK- especially in a slower one.
I actually forget which items are spell trigger items. Looked it up- wands and staves.
But then, after restricting yourself to only one weapon set(backup ranged weapon? Who heard of that? Why do you need the 2nd level class feature if you can't use improvised weapons?), wand and wonderous item (a different irritating limitation for each person!) for an entire month...
After all that, you get +1 to attack and damage, +1 or 2 to AC (shield dependent), possibly +1 to saving throws (can't increase a nonexistent bonus, so if you aren't using a cloak of resistance, screw you), and a free use of the wand/staff each day.
Oh, and if you want to trade up, you have to wait another month.
Oh, and you can't use it on spell trigger items with a CL of higher than one-half your level, so what this really means is "use one spell per day of a level which you would have access to at 2-10 levels ago if you were a mage, then wait a month if you want to change it".

Level 4: Expert timing! This is actually useful! If I read it right, there's no limit against acting again if you already acted in the round, so this can give you unlimited actions. If you remove that abuse, it's not that great. You earn what, 2-3 SP per turn (more by abusing Bodyguard)? Eh.

Level 5: Novice Deck: Hold on, cards? What? *Scrolls down* Okay, so each card has a list of powers, and you get to pick one when you get it, plus some more later. Interesting system, especially the requirements, although I might adjust some of the weights? Also the weapon options are a little strange, especially since you aren't proficient in some of them, and they don't seem related to the effect. Do I have a bunch of weapons strapped to my back or something?

Level 6: Bonus feats are nice! SP bonus won't come up unless you're abusing Aid Another feats, since you already have a max of- *checks* 14 SP at this level, and it takes something like 4-7 actions to build up to that.

Level 7:... Hold on, you only get cards now? What was Novice Deck doing back at level 5, then?
"Instant" Shuffle is misnamed. Call it Quick Shuffle, or just Shuffle.
Benefits I'd grab from these cards: Powerful Build (Piercing), Stat Penalty(Slashing).

(Skipping odd levels from here on out)
Level 9: Need need NEED Move action Aid ANother(Extraordinary) to earn SP, would grab some stuff from Initiating(maneuver costs are OK but still take a bit to build up to, probably OK for the low-cost ones), whatever from Supernatural(why does it protect against Sonic?) + Spell resistance.

L11: All 5 energies! Hell yeah flight from Electricity, effects which affect energy damage you deal are bizarre since you can't do any without items(wand 1/day?), hell yeah burrow speed from Sonic, the ability to change shape is severely overcosted given that you take something like 5-10 rounds (depending) to build up that SP, doing nothing else in the meantime. WTF is up with Ray of Frost at-will? It's literally useless except to chill your drink at this point.

L13: Resist Combat Maneuvers(Force) shuts down many strategies, immunities off Negative are good, immunities off Positive are good, turn+rebuke are good for feats, hell yeah immunities from Pressure (dazed immunity is hard to get!), full-round Freedom of Movement is something you do before combat due to its duration after cheerleading the Fighter for a minute while he does absolutely nothing.

L15: Card Counting: Well I'm really glad I remembered not to take anything more than once, because I wouldn't get it refunded. If I didn't, waaah.

L17: Good to ditch the golf bag I've been toting around, I suppose.

L19: One sec while I work out my total SP maximum... 50! 4th level spells, at will given 5 minutes of prep time? Cool. A strictly noncombat feature.



Todo: In-depth card review.

Feats:

Coordinated Combo:
Makes things a good bit easier to do. Spend 2 SP per use of AA, get a big buff. Assuming you're using an improvised weapon for the maximum attack bonus, you get around a +2 + (40/5) = +10 bonus per use, which nets you 8 SP. If you grab an appropriate trait (helpful!), you could probably make +10 SP net.
Feat tax at high levels- cuts it down to around 5 AA to hit you max. Combat Reflexes + Bodyguard!

Helios Trumpet:
Did you say... abuse Bodyguard by having the monk slap around the fighter?

Manic Manager:
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Good feat. TWF is very good!
Attack penalties from iteratives would have anti-synergy with Coordinated Combo, except that you just make an Aid Another check. No mention of using the same bonus.

Systematic Tactics:
Ahahahahah!
Good feat again.


Summary:
Class is overall extremely confused- different parts of the class are built to do entirely different things. Aid Another is the primary power source for the class, but no other class features help to support it- just feats. Various parts of the class imply different things about the desired behavior of the class. Is this character a meleeist(Medium armor)? A ranged attacker(d6 hit die)? Are they meant to use improvised weapons (2nd level class feature), focus on one weapon to the point of discarding all others(3rd level class feature), or carry around a wide variety of masterwork weapons (Cards)?

What alignment should they be? The line under the table says:

Alignment: Any
but the start of the Card descriptions says

Cards: The unlocked benefits from each of a Battle Magician’s cards are only available when at least one of the items specific to that card are within 5 feet of the Battle Magician, and when the Battle Magician is of a good alignment.

If you pull apart what looks like two or three different classes (a tactician, a magic/tarot focused talent gaining class, a magic item user, etc.) and filled them out, you would have a really cool group of classes! But as written, it doesn't work.

Devigor
2017-02-22, 08:59 PM
I'm looking over it, and I'm actually not entirely sure how it's supposed to play.
It's essentially if you have a fifth or sixth party member. Also, first huge note: it's extremely campaign-specific. Were I to work on some other stuff after this class, it'd definitely be different.


Class has rogue-class chassis, except with all bad saves, can use medium armor and only simple weapons.
Yep.


Level-by-level examination:
Holy wow! Thanks tons! My replies and questions:

Level 1: You guessed the feats, though in pure 3.5 it's pretty limited. Plays like a spell-less bard early on.

Level 2: The improvised weapon penalty is -4 to the attack roll. The +1 bonus per 2 levels is essentially removing the penalty over time, then giving eventually you a tidy bonus on top of that.

Level 3: Hmm... You're supposed to be able to still use improvised weapons and keep bonded to your items.
• The point of restricting to one weapon set is part of the setting-specific thing I mentioned earlier. Instead of finding magical items in that world, you find essence, which you can use to upgrade your gear or change its form.
• I thought you could apply a +1 resistance bonus to items that don't usually have a bonus. With the intended setting, they have a +0 resistance bonus unless specified as higher (like the Cloak Of Resistance you mentioned), but I thought it was a rule of the game anyway; my mistake. I'll fix that soon.

Level 4: You only get one immediate action per round, regardless of the number of turns you get. Unless, of course, you have some way of getting extra immediates.

Level 5: The weights and weapons are, again, part of the lore of the setting, and what makes the class what it is. The way the cards work is both alchemical and divine; the divine significance behind the item affects the alchemical properties of the metaphysically present cards, and the weight of each material is part of the legend of the first Battle Magician, which has now become part of the story of all of them.

Simplest solution has been a bag of holding type 1.

Level 6: The people I play with abuse different Aid Another boosters, even though it's only 3.5; check out the Wolfpack tactical feat. I forget where it's from, but I let it plus Systematic Tactics become an AoE Aid Another. Add Manic Manager, and each full attack becomes "the party gets +17 to AC and the next attack roll against many enemies at once". Anyway, they usually fill up their SP bar in the first turn (double when they get Helios Trumpet and conserve SP), then unleash the fancy moves on their second turn (often in the same round, thanks to Expert Timing).

I allow the above mix for sake of awesome. I don't allow them to use AA for "nothing"; I consider it reasonable that Aid Another can be used with almost any d20 roll, but it has to be one that I, as the GM, would have one of the party members roll. Helping out around camp is recommended to avoid being snobby, but only things that actually matter earn SP.

Level 7: There are ways to temporarily get access to the cards through items. Maybe I should add those in the post with the feats?

Level 9: Sonic on the Su. card was a typo.

L11: The player I mentioned earlier currently plays a half-orc battle magician, at level 13, with the electricity blinding and sonic deafening effects, using a +1 Screaming Shocking greatsword (large sized) named, er,[insert something in latin I don't remember but sounds pretty cool]. The energy effects aren't spectacular, just interesting. Plus, blinded undead. The ray of frost allows you to slow the movement speed of a target quite a bit, if you don't feel like grabbing another way to do cold damage. If it can't teleport, you have a single-target immobilize at-will.

L13: LOL for the cheerleading bit! Yeah, I considered making the Freedom Of Movement automatic as long as you have 1 or more SP. Would that make it more suitable?

L15: You can use the Shuffle to switch one of the "free" benefits for getting access to a new card to whatever else you want. Basically, you prepare your cards like a Wiz preps spells, except it takes a LOT longer earlier on (at this point, it's actually much faster).

L19: Yeah, the spells on this one are not supposed to be gamechangers. The whole class is for supporting your allies. That being said, see my note on the Helios Trumpet feat.



Feats:
Again, thanks!


Coordinated Combo:
It's definitely a feat tax at higher levels. Combined with ways to AA multiple buddies at once, and you start getting back more SP than you spend.

Helios Trumpet:
This is a feat tax, too. Refills your SP by half every morning, and more importantly, it lets you temporarily break maximum... This allows you to cast 9th level spells as Su. abilities.

Manic Manager:
Aye. Failing an attack against AC 10 has proven notoriously difficult.

Systematic Tactics:
Thanks for the praise. Was the laughter due to the names?



Alignment...
The alignment thing is there because you can be evil (or controlled by evil) and still use all your abilities except for the different decks.


Summary:
I see. Perhaps I should rewrite it as three distinct classes, and spend some time focusing each one into a less restricted niche? It's supposed to be able to choose all of those things at the same time... The martial disciplines are a pretty integral part of the class's setup, though. Abjurant Champion (the martial discipline version), Adamant Soul, etc. can provide efficient paths to tankiness and versatility.

How about if I redid it as a two-class setup, named Battle Scepter and Tarot Mage?

aimlessPolymath
2017-02-22, 11:19 PM
I don't think that designing a class for the highest level of optimization is a good idea. Looking at it as a player, the class looked bizarrely useless for the first few levels.

Point-by-point replies:


Level 1: You guessed the feats, though in pure 3.5 it's pretty limited. Plays like a spell-less bard early on.
It's honestly a pretty sad-looking class for these levels. I need to clarify- is this 3.5, pathfinder, or a mixture of both? Wolfpack is 3.5 material.


Level 2: The improvised weapon penalty is -4 to the attack roll. The +1 bonus per 2 levels is essentially removing the penalty over time, then giving eventually you a tidy bonus on top of that.
Yeah, except I can take Catch Off-Guard to make this stupidly accurate in Pathfinder.



Level 3: Hmm... You're supposed to be able to still use improvised weapons and keep bonded to your items.
• The point of restricting to one weapon set is part of the setting-specific thing I mentioned earlier. Instead of finding magical items in that world, you find essence, which you can use to upgrade your gear or change its form.
• I thought you could apply a +1 resistance bonus to items that don't usually have a bonus. With the intended setting, they have a +0 resistance bonus unless specified as higher (like the Cloak Of Resistance you mentioned), but I thought it was a rule of the game anyway; my mistake. I'll fix that soon.
Okay, makes more sense then, except the item restrictions during the ritual are stupidly restrictive. You can't use more than one wonderous item? Too bad if you find a set of boots! My main problem with it is the extremely lengthy time to attune.


Level 4: You only get one immediate action per round, regardless of the number of turns you get. Unless, of course, you have some way of getting extra immediates.
Well, a) that still lets you double your turns/round by using the ability every round to reduce your initiative count a bit each round, and b), turns out, it's per turn (sorry) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/#TOC-Immediate-Actions):


Immediate Actions
Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it’s not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.


Level 5: The weights and weapons are, again, part of the lore of the setting, and what makes the class what it is. The way the cards work is both alchemical and divine; the divine significance behind the item affects the alchemical properties of the metaphysically present cards, and the weight of each material is part of the legend of the first Battle Magician, which has now become part of the story of all of them.

Simplest solution has been a bag of holding type 1.
Alright, fair enough. It's just odd to see items with wildly varying prices and densities getting measured by weight. (Actually, how much does 10 lbs of adamantine cost? I've actually never seen metals priced by weight, even though that makes so much more sense).


Level 6: The people I play with abuse different Aid Another boosters, even though it's only 3.5; check out the Wolfpack tactical feat. I forget where it's from, but I let it plus Systematic Tactics become an AoE Aid Another. Add Manic Manager, and each full attack becomes "the party gets +17 to AC and the next attack roll against many enemies at once". Anyway, they usually fill up their SP bar in the first turn (double when they get Helios Trumpet and conserve SP), then unleash the fancy moves on their second turn.

I allow the above mix for sake of awesome. I don't allow them to use AA for "nothing"; I consider it reasonable that Aid Another can be used with almost any d20 roll, but it has to be one that I, as the GM, would have one of the party members roll. Helping out around camp is recommended to avoid being snobby, but only things that actually matter earn SP.
So, uh, that actually doesn't work by RAW (although not RAI, maybe). While Systematic Tactics' wording lets you use Wolfpack (http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/races-of-the-wild--84/wolfpack--3163/index.html)on everyone (maybe), a) Wolfpack requires a distinct standard action to use, not an Aid Another action, technically:

Gang Dodge: This maneuver allows you to use the aid another action to assist all allies who threaten the same foe you target with the action. You use a standard action as normal to aid an ally's defense (see the Aid Another special attack, page 154 of the Player's Handbook).
Then Manic Manager explicitly replaces attack actions with Aid Another checks, not with Wolfpack.
Then, Wolfpack is unaffected by Aid Another boosters, and doesn't refill your SP since it isn't actually an Aid Another bonus:

If you succeed, all your allies who threaten your foe gain a +2 bonus to AC against that foe's attacks until the beginning of your next turn, provided that you continue to threaten that foe for that time.
So it doesn't actually work, as written. Not all DMs would allow the combo, and balancing the class against it working doesn't seem right to me.


Level 7: There are ways to temporarily get access to the cards through items. Maybe I should add those in the post with the feats?
Yeah... because otherwise, level 5 is totally dead. Item reliance to get features to work is a little iffy, but it's better.


Level 9: Sonic on the Su. card was a typo.
'k. Saving throw bonuses are much better now!


L11: The player I mentioned earlier currently plays a half-orc battle magician, at level 13, with the electricity blinding and sonic deafening effects, using a +1 Screaming Shocking greatsword (large sized) named, er,[insert something in latin I don't remember but sounds pretty cool]. The energy effects aren't spectacular, just interesting. Plus, blinded undead. The ray of frost allows you to slow the movement speed of a target quite a bit, if you don't feel like grabbing another way to do cold damage. If it can't teleport, you have a single-target immobilize at-will.

Point on the ray of frost. Again, making the class features require equipment to work is kinda iffy in my opinion. Add a +1d4 damage option to the different energies?


L13: LOL for the cheerleading bit! Yeah, I considered making the Freedom Of Movement automatic as long as you have 1 or more SP. Would that make it more suitable?
Much.


L15: You can use the Shuffle to switch one of the "free" benefits for getting access to a new card to whatever else you want. Basically, you prepare your cards like a Wiz preps spells, except it takes a LOT longer earlier on (at this point, it's actually much faster).
Okay, good point. Quick count of how many slots you get to "prepare":
1 for each of the cards: 16
1 for 7th level and each thereafter: 13 more.
29 abilities total.
That's a lot.


L19: Yeah, the spells on this one are not supposed to be gamechangers. The whole class is for supporting your allies. That being said, see my note on the Helios Trumpet feat.
Yeah, they aren't really.

Feat notes:

Coordinated Combo:
It's definitely a feat tax at higher levels. Combined with ways to AA multiple buddies at once, and you start getting back more SP than you spend.

Helios Trumpet:
This is a feat tax, too. Refills your SP by half every morning, and more importantly, it lets you temporarily break maximum... This allows you to cast 9th level spells as Su. abilities.

Manic Manager:
Aye. Failing an attack against AC 10 has proven notoriously difficult.

Systematic Tactics:
Thanks for the praise. Was the laughter due to the names?
If all the feats you could take are good enough to be automatic picks for the class(even if I didn't have bonus feats and only got 1 feat per 3 levels I would take them), you might want to tone them down a bit, actually. They're actually too good, since you basically need them for the class to work effectively (especially Systematic Tactics, which you need to stay safe and away from enemies(d6 hit die), Manic Manager, which is required to refill SP efficiently, and Coordinated Combo, which... ditto. Helios Trumpet is the only one I could do without, and that's because you basically need a bunch of other feats to hit that level.


Also, thing I just noticed: Between Extraordinary and Supernatural, thanks to Quick Shuffle you have up to 10 floating feats (nearly costless at L15)! You can also reload your uses of Turn Undead by equipping and unequipping the appropriate unlock, I think?

The class's optimization ceiling is pretty high, I guess, but the floor is pretty damn low- you need the right feats to be allowed in whatever game it's played in for it to function at a minimally effective level. You practically have to cheese the system with AA boosters and magic items (looking at you, level 5 and the energy abilities) to make the class function on a minimally effective level.


The alignment thing is there because you can be evil (or controlled by evil) and still use all your abilities except for the different decks.
Other than the deck, practically all you get out of the class is bonus feats and improvised weapons- most of the AA power comes from feats. Rewrite it into a code of conduct about ex-battle magicians, like with barbarians. (except that they can still level). Move it out of the deck rules where it might be missed. I guess it's a thing, but I don't really understand why you lose your deck from becoming neutral (class fluff?), and it makes Alignment: Any pretty deceptive.

On martial initiating being core to the class:
Tone it down. Pick some martial disciplines, or give me something to work with when picking them. I have no idea where to find the majority of the homebrew disciplines- link to them? I have no idea what they do- Tell me a little about what their themes are?
If I pick one of those options, I am immediately forced to look at at least 40+ maneuvers to choose between in combat- I am totally lost, instantly. There's no ability to make meaningful decisions about which to pick, because you'd have to look through at least three different web pages to work out what a single unlock does.
I'm especially going to call out Sublime Tapestry as a discipline, because many of its effects don't even function within the class (readying maneuvers, Closing Strike not working with any of the maneuvers it's grouped with), and the disciplines it's grouped with are not a cohesive group at all (The seasons, law, and time control (which of the two disciplines named Riven Hourglass are not specified) with multi-discipline skill?).
The thing about readied maneuvers for martial initiators is it limits the number of decisions they have to make on a round-by-round basis, and there's little decision-making about trading off resources for the power of a maneuver. I don't know that there are any of those restrictions here, and I worry that it would make playing an initiating-focused build very, very hard (especially since you could potentially switch out all your maneuvers known in the space of an hour).

How many disciplines did your player take? Did he often change them? Did he often switch out his unlocks?


On splitting the class up:
It tries to do all those things, but it gets pulled in a lot of different directions. The big ones are Medium armor and d6 hit die- Should he or should he not be able to take a hit?
Again- What's your default per-round option? Quest weapon or improvised weapon? (answer: improvised weapon is almost always better except against DR/magic for several reasons) Do you attack people or Aid Another to build up SP (do note that a fairly strong combat build can be made without taking the expense to go for SP, and that it provides little benefit until you start grabbing maneuvers, so you aren't exactly encouraged to build for it early on)?

Where do you get the improvised weapons to use? At second level, you can use items of up to a pound of weight. This is a pretty arbitrary limitation, since it grows as you level, but weapon damage doesn't really noticably change with weight.

Also, I just noticed something about some of the cards. Not only do no effects have saving throws attached, so your save bonus is irrelevant against other battle magicians (if there were any), but you're allowed to take the "blind someone" ability three times... It doesn't stack. You might expect the duration to increase, except that, well, none of the other debuff-on-damage effects stack. (also fire has no associated debuff, just partial fire resist bypass)

Devigor
2017-02-23, 12:14 PM
It's 3.5, with PF material accepted and utilized.

Thanks for correcting me on the immediate action thing.

I have tables made for price-by-weight of raw materials.

Taking out the combo with Wolfpack, the class does take much longer to get rolling.

I'm thinking of letting Novice Deck add a modifier to saving throws, and taking away the save bonuses against specific kinds of effects off the cards. Perhaps adding the +1d4 energy damage, like you said, would be a good replacement?

I'll fix up the Freedom Of Movement benefit.

The epic progression allows one additional benefit per level of Epic Battle Magician, though there is also a new "Legend" card.

Coordinated Combo could be a level 5 feature, if I don't go with the save boost thing. Manic Manager should probably replace the Extraordinary "Aid Another as a move action". Systematic Tactics... Probably deserves to be a level 1 feature for this class.

Floating feats were intended, so you can switch between fighter-y, crafting/wizardry, or gish-ish fairly quickly and simply.

I doubt the average player would ever use this class. If they're frequenting Giantitp such that they see it, they probably know (or can find) a way or two to avoid falling into hazard territory. It's good protocol to build something usable for everyone, but realistically, optimizers are the sort to play with it, and typically only if they're the fifth wheel.

Ah, it shouldn't be Any, that's true. Any except neutral, following the lore. "You can pick either side of the fence, or you can sit on the fence. But remember, one side owns the fence."

The Initiating card was designed by the player. He usually only has one Initiating benefit unlocked at a time, but he likes to switch between them as often as I'll let him (which is to say, as often as he has maneuvers and stances ready to use at the table without slowing things down). I actually pretty much just said "sure, I'll check it later" and forgot to go back and do that. I'll spend a few hours fixing it over my spring break.

Typically, a literal deck of cards card functions as a set of improvised ranged weapons. The half-orc doesn't, but it's part of the class's story.

Also, I just noticed something about some of the cards. Not only do no effects have saving throws attached, so your save bonus is irrelevant against other battle magicians (if there were any), but you're allowed to take the "blind someone" ability three times... It doesn't stack. You might expect the duration to increase, except that, well, none of the other debuff-on-damage effects stack. (also fire has no associated debuff, just partial fire resist bypass)

There is only ever a single Battle Magician in the world at a time, period. As for the stacking thing, yes the durations stack. It's specified in "Benefits", right under the materials required for each card.

So, to sum up my excuses:
I'm going to fix this and create an alternate two-class version over spring break. Thanks, graci, and thank you again, for your review and your time. I really appreciate the effort.