Wizard or duskblade as debuffer?? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Chidori

2017-02-22, 01:40 PM

Hi like the title say.

I wanna play a debuffer.

But i dont know which to go with.

Wizard have more debuff spell than duskblade. But they are weak (d4) and need a spellbook (my dm like to destroy our stuff in bag. Like potion and spellbook etc. )

As for duskblade they have more Hp (d8) and can fight in melee and wear armor.

Every book is allowed except dragon magazine and no template are allowed.

The race i wanna play is human for skill and bonus feat.

Stats are 10 10 12 16 17 18

The concept i see for both are

Wizard: look like a vampire aristocrat. With weird marking on the skin. Semi necro look but yet look like a noble.

Duskblade: look like a dark knight (final fantasy 14 style) for those that dont know ff14. Guy in full plate with spike. Great sword in hand. Wield dark magic (debuff and fell drain mm on certain spell)

As for multiclasses/prc
The dm is a d!ck about it. I can have my base with one extra class or prc.

What im looking is some tip. Personal experience with such concept build etc

Thank in advance for your time

Das_Tabby

2017-02-22, 01:46 PM

I would go for wizard.
Duskblade is great as a gish, but one part of a spell's DC is the spells lvl, and duskblade only gets up to 5
I'm also unsure how many debuffs a duskblade gets, I know of Touch of idiocy, but apart from that?

Wizard should have that to, and probably a lot more
if you're concerned about loosing your spellbook, there's an ACF which allows you to keep all your spells in your mind, but you'll lose your familiar and the scribe scroll feat for that
I'm just not sure where it was from...

The wizard also has a lot of spells to protect him or herself ((greater) mage armor, (greater) mirror image, displacement etc)

Chidori

2017-02-22, 01:51 PM

There an acf that make wizard have no spellbook!!! Holy sh!t
Anyone know where it from or have atleast the name of it.

ryu

2017-02-22, 02:08 PM

There an acf that make wizard have no spellbook!!! Holy sh!t
Anyone know where it from or have atleast the name of it.

I believe it was eidetic wizard. Just google you'll find it.

Chidori

2017-02-22, 02:12 PM

Thank ill look it up.

Troacctid

2017-02-22, 02:55 PM

Duskblade is not a debuffer, it's a striker with some debuff options. Wizard is a proper debuffer. You want to debuff, go with Wizard.

Eldariel

2017-02-22, 03:06 PM

Wizards aren't nearly as squishy as they might look at the first glance; they have low HP but they're quite adept at avoiding being hit, much more so than most other classes, and they have little reason to put themselves in harm's way in the first place. Eidetic Spellcaster is in Dragon Magazine #357, loses familiar, spellbook and scribe scroll in exchange for the ability to store spells in your mind. Complete Arcane also has rules for writing spells on your body and essentially using yourself as your spellbook (at least for a small portion of your spells), see page 186-187. Since you want strange markings on your body anyways, this option feels tailormade for you.

Then there's the oldfashioned option of keeping your spellbook hidden in e.g. Secret Chest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretChest.htm) - this means it's only around during spell preparation and anything befalling it is highly unlikely. You can further trap it (Geas is a good spell to build a trap of as it doesn't offer a save and can force the would-be thief to bring it back to you), keep copies/extras/fakes around, etc. It's a fun little minigame actually.

Eidetic Spellcaster sadly costs you your familiar which means you cannot take Abrupt Jaunt [Player's Handbook II], which gives a Conjurer 10' immediate action teleportation Int Modifier times per day from level 1. It's a very powerful defensive option and easily worth picking up; it makes life a whole helluva lot easier.

And yeah, Wizards are way better for this than Duskblades. Duskblades have a lot of damage spells but not that much in terms of utility/control while Wizards are all utility/control all the time. I can recommend reading Playing a God (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1570) as a good introduction to some of the better spells in a Wizard's repertoire.

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-22, 03:28 PM

Eiditic Wizard is from Dragon Magazine, unfortunately.

If you try to make a Duskblade debuffer, you'll be very disappointed. They're a fine class, but they have little to nothing in terms of debuffing spells. Level 1 spells are alright-- Cause Fear, Color Spray, and Ray of Enfeeblement are all solid-- but beyond that you're down to about one mediocre option per level. And because you're getting lower-levelled spells and have to invest in physical combat, your save DCs will be weaker too.

If you're worried about a wizard's spellbook, Complete Arcane has some alternate options, including knots and tattoos, but I think the best is the Wizard's Spellshard in Eberron Campaign Setting-- 3 gold for a lump of crystal that holds 20 pages' worth of spellbook. That gets you around a lot of conventional threats, though you do wind up with a backpack full of crystals. If you're really worried that your DM will go out of their way to interfere with vital items, though... Sorcerer is better, but Psion is king. Nothing stops a Psion-- not spellbooks, not material components, not being tied up and gagged, nothing but full-on antimagic/antipsionics.

Chidori

2017-02-22, 04:17 PM

though... Sorcerer is better, but Psion is king. Nothing stops a Psion-- not spellbooks, not material components, not being tied up and gagged, nothing but full-on antimagic/antipsionics.

Is psion good with debuff?

Chidori

2017-02-22, 08:57 PM

So im going wizard. Thank to all.

Ill make a new post about my wizard build very soon and the idea i have for it.

As the post have come to an end.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-23, 02:14 AM

If you can't get eidetic wizard (pure cheese, IMO) then you can go with the tattoo variant alternate spellbook from the back of complete arcane. Might consider geometer to make up for the limited "pages" if you go that route and have room in your build.

ryu

2017-02-23, 02:18 AM

Dagroth

2017-02-23, 02:23 AM

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Hexblade as an alternate to Duskblade...

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-23, 02:45 AM

It's cheese. It's giving up some very powerful things to prevent DM fiat from turning you into a commoner.

It's throwing away a limitation on a class that desparately needs one for a couple of nothing class features. Tattoo spellbook makes it nearly impossible to take your spellbook away without killing you but makes a -reasonable- tradeoff of higher cost and limited page count.

Frankly, people whine a little too hard about loss of a spellbook anyway. It doesn't make you a commoner. It just means you have to make a new one with what you currently have memorized and recover the damned thing. Making a backup copy to keep somewhere safe is also fairly cheap at half the cost of the original.

It's not good for a DM to constantly target the wizard's spellbook, anymore than it is to constantly spam rust monsters at the fighter, but it's not something that should be absolutely forbidden either.

If the vulnerability of a spellbook is such a deal-breaker, play something that doesn't use one.

ryu

2017-02-23, 02:50 AM

It's throwing away a limitation for a couple of nothing class features. Tattoo spellbook makes it nearly impossible to take your spellbook away without killing you but makes a -reasonable- tradeoff of higher cost and limited page count.

Frankly, people whine a little too hard about loss of a spellbook anyway. It doesn't make you a commoner. It just means you have to make a new one with what you currently have memorized and recover the damned thing. Making a backup copy to keep somewhere safe is also fairly cheap at half the cost of the original.

It's not good for a DM to constantly target the wizard's spellbook, anymore than it is to constantly spam rust monsters at the fighter, but it's not something that should be absolutely forbidden either.

If the vulnerability of a spellbook is such a deal-breaker, play something that doesn't use one.

You don't seem to understand. This poster has made a point of saying their DM regularly made a habit of destroying their things. Not occasionally, or every once in a blue moon. A habit. Enough that they didn't ask for spellbook defense tips, backup making tips, or any of the like, but actually biting the bullet and sacrificing class features just to tell the DM that, no, you don't get this.

Kelb_Panthera

2017-02-23, 03:22 AM

You don't seem to understand. This poster has made a point of saying their DM regularly made a habit of destroying their things. Not occasionally, or every once in a blue moon. A habit. Enough that they didn't ask for spellbook defense tips, backup making tips, or any of the like, but actually biting the bullet and sacrificing class features just to tell the DM that, no, you don't get this.

Unless he's made a habit of skinning them, the tattoo book should be adequate. Just because this is the ideal circumstance for the ACF doesn't make it not cheesy.

More importantly, overuse of such tactics represents a bigger, out of game problem that needs an out of game discussion to handle. Escalation will not solve this problem.

Worse comes worse, kobold sorcerer with the greater draconic right is just as powerful as a wizard and way easier to use anyway.

Seriously though, chidori, talk to the DM about that gear stripping thing. That's not cool.

Troacctid

2017-02-23, 03:33 AM

ryu

2017-02-23, 03:35 AM

Eidetic Spellcaster costs you your familiar and one of your bonus feats for a benefit that won't even matter in the majority of games. It's not anywhere close to cheesy. Frankly, I don't think it's even good.

And it's not. The fact that someone even asked for it speaks to just how severe the problem is.

Matrota

2017-02-23, 10:08 AM

If you're concerned about safety on your wizard you can prestige class into abjurant champion to be able to huff your own defense better

Grod_The_Giant

2017-02-23, 02:02 PM

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Hexblade as an alternate to Duskblade...
Because it's painfully bad? I mean, the Dark Companion ACF is okay, but in general it's not much of a caster or a particularly impressive debuffer.

Flickerdart

2017-02-23, 02:27 PM

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Hexblade as an alternate to Duskblade...

Why? Hexblade is awful. It's so bad that WotC actually used it as an example of bad class design.

Troacctid

2017-02-23, 02:41 PM

Hexblade is literally among the worst classes in the game.

Grim Reader

2017-02-23, 04:28 PM

Unless you are completly married to Wizard, if you have all books available, consider a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. You should be able to do the "Dark Knight" concept with it.

It is not as good a spellcaster as the Wizard, but it is far, far better than the Duskblade. Closer to the Wizard than the Duskblade in magical power. Also it is one of the toughest choices in the game out of the box. Equivalent of a d12 hit dice. You don't need to worry about prestige classes or multiclassing, it goes best by just taking it to 20. Maybe a single level of Sand Shaper if you feel the limited spells known to chafe.

Str 16, Con 17 and Cha 18.

Gullintanni

2017-02-23, 05:15 PM

Clerics also make tremendous Debuffers. Pick up the Divine Magician ACF and you can grab some of the Wizard's best debuffs and take advantage of that D8, armored casting chassis.

...if you're not married to Wizarding. :P

ZamielVanWeber

2017-02-23, 05:54 PM

Why? Hexblade is awful. It's so bad that WotC actually used it as an example of bad class design.

One of the designers explained why they did what they did with it and offered up some serious reworks to make it do what it was supposed to do. It is actually decent if you use the changes (a nice T4, possibly even T3).

Vizzerdrix

2017-02-23, 06:01 PM

Unless he's made a habit of skinning them, the tattoo book should be adequate. Just because this is the ideal circumstance for the ACF doesn't make it not cheesy.

Alternatly, build one of the metal spellbooks, rust proof it, then cast minor servitor on it. I bet that would be a cool familiar.

Zanos

2017-02-23, 06:01 PM

Why? Hexblade is awful. It's so bad that WotC actually used it as an example of bad class design.
I know it's bad, but when did Wotc admit it?

If you're worried about your spellbound being destroyed in combat, you can just get a iron/steel/adamantine/riverine case for it. Should be fine even if your pack isn't.

Flickerdart

2017-02-23, 06:04 PM

I know it's bad, but when did Wotc admit it?
It was used as an example of how full BAB was overvalued early on in the design of the system, and how the designers would never have made something like Duskblade then. I can't recall the source off the top of my head.

Dagroth

2017-02-23, 06:05 PM

One of the designers explained why they did what they did with it and offered up some serious reworks to make it do what it was supposed to do. It is actually decent if you use the changes (a nice T4, possibly even T3).

Can you provide a link to this, please?

ZamielVanWeber

2017-02-23, 06:38 PM

Can you provide a link to this, please?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?88349-Can-someone-post-the-Hexblade-fix-here. Sorry for the ugly link but they are hard to beautify on my phone. The original post was lost when Glee max went down

Hiro Quester

2017-02-23, 07:39 PM

I know it's not quite what you asked for, but for something in between beguiler and wizard, with access to much of the beguiler's illusions and mind control, a bard (or bard /sublime chord) can make an excellent debuffer.

Doomspeak, a bardic music, is possibly one of the best enemy debuffs in the game. High DC that forces -10 to all saves, skill checks, attack rollls etc.

Haunting melody is also an excellent debuff.

Plus bard has all the social skills for manipulation like a beguiled. And less MAD with CHA casting. And no spell book for DM to dispose of.

ATHATH

2017-02-23, 09:41 PM

You could also try playing a Dread Necromancer- they have some great debuffs (as long as you're facing living or undead enemies). Dip a level or two of Sandshaper for some extra spells (DN actually has some decent class features, so dipping out once (to delay your spell learning feature by one level so that you can higher-level spells) is actually viable), take the Tomb-Touched Soul feat (since your DM won't allow you to take the Necropolitan feat), and you should be fine (you might want to take the Arcane Disciple feat for a few extra spells, though).

Troacctid

2017-02-24, 02:55 AM

ATHATH

2017-02-24, 03:18 PM

If you do go down the Dread Necromancer route, I recommend being an Illumian with the Naen and Hoon power sigils. You basically get a better version Divine Metamagic twice per day (which, without nightsticks or more than one prestige class, should be all that you ever need) that you can apply to arcane spells. Mmm, free Persist Spell on stuff like Eyebite and Death Dragon... Quicken Spell is also a good Naenhoon candidate.

If Illumians are banned for whatever reason or if you aren't a Dread Necromancer, I recommend being a Raptoran. Racial, nonmagical flight from level 1 is REALLY good.

Chidori

2017-02-24, 04:16 PM

Ok wow i was sure my post was dead:P

Well thank you all.

I like the stalwarts battle sorcerer idee. Tnx for that one.

Ill reread everything after work.
Thank you all

Chidori

2017-02-24, 06:02 PM

Someone mention about the necropolitan feat. I cant find it. In what book is it?

ZamielVanWeber

2017-02-24, 06:04 PM

Necropolitan is a template in Libris Mortis. It gives the undead type in return for a level and 1k experience.

ryu

2017-02-24, 06:09 PM

Necropolitan is a template in Libris Mortis. It gives the undead type in return for a level and 1k experience.

Yep earliest it's generally done is level 3 when it's first affordable. At it's best if you're an elf taking faerie mysteries initiate to become disgustingly tanky.

Chidori

2017-02-24, 06:15 PM

Thank. That why i was not able to find it as a feat :P