Rogue Sneak attack vs Gunsmith Thunder Monger

[ShirAhn]

Hey guys,

So I was wondering what you think about the new UA Thunder Monger.
For those who don't know here (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/1_UA_Artificer_20170109.pdf)is the link.

The Thunder Monger ability gives the Gunsmith a special ranged attack as an action. The attack does 2D6 + 2D6/every two levels. So a level 5 Gunsmith gives him 4D6+(DEX) damage as a 150/500 feet range attack.

Now compared to a rogue, who has to get sneak attack to be able to do this, he gets +3d6 on level. I believe most rogues use duel shortswords or maybe a longbow. However the rogue NEEDS advantage or some other way to trigger his sneak attack.

To me it sorta feels like the artificer/Gunsmith gets "sneak attack" damage for free?

What do you guys think?

[clash]

Rogues are balanced around getting snack attack every round anyways so even if they got it for free it wouldn't be a big deal but the important distinction is that thunder monger uses an action and sneak attack doesn't which means snack attack can apply to twf in case your first attack misses. It can also apply to reactions letting you get it more than once per round. So it comes with advantages that thunder monger doesn't get

[jaappleton]

Hey guys,

So I was wondering what you think about the new UA Thunder Monger.
For those who don't know here (https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/1_UA_Artificer_20170109.pdf)is the link.

The Thunder Monger ability gives the Gunsmith a special ranged attack as an action. The attack does 2D6 + 2D6/every two levels. So a level 5 Gunsmith gives him 4D6+(DEX) damage as a 150/500 feet range attack.

Now compared to a rogue, who has to get sneak attack to be able to do this, he gets +3d6 on level. I believe most rogues use duel shortswords or maybe a longbow. However the rogue NEEDS advantage or some other way to trigger his sneak attack.

To me it sorta feels like the artificer/Gunsmith gets "sneak attack" damage for free?

What do you guys think?

They're both unique in that they each get a scaling, singular attack. They never get the extra attack feature. Aritficers, however, can't utilize their bonus action to get a second attack like Rogues can, as their bonus action is required to reload the thunder cannon.

I like the scaling attack of both, because it keeps them competitive. Though as a player, it somewhat scares me... Waiting for your turn only to end up doing nothing because you rolled a 3 sucks, regardless of what class you're playing.

[Cespenar]

4d6+dex is not OP at level 5. It's the same as a Warlock Eldritch Blast + Hex, and less powerful than a Fighter 5 with Sharpshooter anyway.

[DivisibleByZero]

The Thunder Monger ability gives the Gunsmith a special ranged attack as an action. The attack does 2D6 + 2D6/every two levels.

No it doesn't. It starts at 2d6 at first level. At 3rd level he gets +1d6 = 3d6.
At 5th level he gets another 1d6 = 4d6.
At 7th level he gets another 1d6 = 5d6.
It's not +2d6 every 2 levels. It's +1d6 every 2 levels, just like the rogue.
The difference is that if he wants to actually use it, he can't do it quietly.
So while to rogue requires advantage or an ally, the gunsmith doesn't, but instead can't be silent and attracts everything within earshot of a thundercrack, which is everything.... just every.... thing.

[ShirAhn]

No it doesn't. It starts at 2d6 at first level. At 3rd level he gets +1d6 = 3d6.
At 5th level he gets another 1d6 = 4d6.
At 7th level he gets another 1d6 = 5d6.
It's not +2d6 every 2 levels. It's +1d6 every 2 levels, just like the rogue.
The difference is that if he wants to actually use it, he can't do it quietly.
So while to rogue requires advantage or an ally, the gunsmith doesn't, but instead can't be silent and attracts everything within earshot of a thundercrack, which is everything.... just every.... thing.

The silent part I didn't consider at all,

everyone thank you for your input.

[SharkForce]

i'm inclined to think it's slightly overtuned. yeah, the rogue should be getting sneak attack most rounds... but this guy can make that attack at 500 feet, which isn't likely to happen for a typical rogue. plus, unlike a rogue the artificer does actually gain several options for dealing damage eventually.

i wouldn't make it a huge amount lower, but i do think it should be a bit lower, personally.

[DivisibleByZero]

i'm inclined to think it's slightly overtuned. yeah, the rogue should be getting sneak attack most rounds... but this guy can make that attack at 500 feet, which isn't likely to happen for a typical rogue. plus, unlike a rogue the artificer does actually gain several options for dealing damage eventually.

i wouldn't make it a huge amount lower, but i do think it should be a bit lower, personally.

And the Rogue is action packed with other class features.
The Artificer is not.
It's balanced just fine.

[SharkForce]

And the Rogue is action packed with other class features.
The Artificer is not.
It's balanced just fine.

the artificer gets spellcasting as a 1/3 caster, the ability to allow others to spend the action(s) and concentration required for any of their spells, a bunch of free magic items, extra attunement slots to be able to use those items, a mechanical pet that is frankly very powerful, and up to +6 to all saving throws, in addition to their subclass.

that isn't exactly nothing.

[DivisibleByZero]

Let's take these in order, shall we?


the artificer gets spellcasting as a 1/3 caster, the ability to allow others to spend the action(s) and concentration required for any of their spells, a bunch of free magic items, extra attunement slots to be able to use those items, a mechanical pet that is frankly very powerful, and up to +6 to all saving throws, in addition to their subclass.

that isn't exactly nothing.

the artificer gets spellcasting as a 1/3 caster,
So does the AT, and it gets it in addition to the base class chassis

the ability to allow others to spend the action(s) and concentration required for any of their spells,
Of which they get very few, so that's of limited usefulness.

a bunch of free magic items,
Of which most are cursory and of limited usefulness.

extra attunement slots to be able to use those items,
....in a system which by default has few magic items and no way to buy them. It's DM Fiat territory.

a mechanical pet that is frankly very powerful,
Very powerful when you first get it, but doesn't scale and therefore lags as you level to the point that it becomes inconsequential.

and up to +6 to all saving throws,
See my point about extra attunement slots above.

in addition to their subclass.
Which Rogues also get. But the Artificer subclasses only grant it the damage that comes from the base Rogue chassis and either a little utility or a little AoE/control.

that isn't exactly nothing.
It's not noting, but if we're comparing it to Rogues then it's as close to nothing as things get.

Artificer is very cool, but it's on the low end of the power scale to the point where I'd actually call it underpowered. It's cool, but it's nowhere near OP. In fact, I think the opposite.
If it were built as an half caster then it would be about where it needs to be on the power scale.

[SharkForce]

if you choose well, the mechanical pet is never irrelevant. if you can't figure out how to use it, that's your own fault, not the fault of the class feature.

and yes, the items an artificer gets as part of their class are not the most ridiculous ones out there. but they are all useful in their own way.

and for all the game insists it doesn't hand out magic items often, there sure do seem to be a fair number of magic items in every module they've published so far. enough to get an artificer to 6 items on their own? probably not. when combined with the number of items the artificer gets from their own class features, though? that sounds pretty plausible.

i have to say, it seems like you're seriously undervaluing some of the artificer's features. they're not up there with the lore bard (one of the most consistently highly rated classes from every discussion i've seen), but they do have a lot of stuff to bring to the table.

[DivisibleByZero]

and yes, the items an artificer gets as part of their class are not the most ridiculous ones out there. but they are all useful in their own way.
They are all basically minor utility items.

enough to get an artificer to 6 items on their own? probably not. when combined with the number of items the artificer gets from their own class features, though? that sounds pretty plausible.
How many of the free items (from each tier) that the Arty "creates" require attunement? Because that's what it takes to make a difference on your saves, attunement.

i have to say, it seems like you're seriously undervaluing some of the artificer's features.
And I think that you're seriously overvaluing them.

[LordVonDerp]

yeah, the rogue should be getting sneak attack most rounds... but this guy can make that attack at 500 feet, which isn't likely to happen for a typical rogue.

Or the artificer either, honestly. Dnd doesn't do 500 ft ranges very often.

[SharkForce]

Or the artificer either, honestly. Dnd doesn't do 500 ft ranges very often.

*shrug* as with the mile range lore wizard, it is important to note that the 500 foot range includes all the stuff in between 0 and that range.

it is easy for a rogue to get sneak attack damage on *someone* provided you have a remotely typical adventuring party. it is not often so easy for the rogue to have free range to choose any individual of their choice within range of their attack, and that is a critical difference. 5d6 damage to the 70 HP wizard sitting 60 feet away in the back of the enemy formation is a *very* different thing when compared to 5d6 damage to the ~150 HP trained giant apes in the front. a rogue could quite probably get an attack on the apes. it would be much less likely for the rogue to be able to safely get past the apes, in range of the wizard, get an attack off that qualifies for sneak attack (needs someone else adjacent or advantage), and then repeat that round after round, and do so without having to deal with the fact that all the apes are going to close in and make that rogue a lot less happy about the decision to stand far away from all the rogue's allies.

the gunsmith has reliable damage against most any target in range. is it massively overtuned? i don't think so. but i do think it is overtuned.

[ShirAhn]

All in all, isnt the rogue DPR kinda low anyway? When I compare the damage to any other martial class the Artificer holds up?
For lvl 5
Rogue lvl 5 (using longbow) = 1d8 + 3d6 + DEX (lets say its 4) = 19DPR
Artificer lvl 5 (using Thunder Monger) = 4d6 + DEX (lets say its 4) = 14DPR
Fighter lvl 5 (using longbow) = 2d8 + 2xDEX (lets say its 4) = 17DPR (Can go up to 34 when using sharpshooter feat and allot more when using its action surge)
Ranger lvl 5 (using longbow) = 2d8 + +2d6(hunters mark)+ 2xDEX (lets say its 4) = 24DPR

After looking at these numbers I guess the Artificer isnt that op at all, both the rogue and Artificer don't really hold up when the other classes get second attacks. Am I missing something?

[Zalabim]

it is easy for a rogue to get sneak attack damage on *someone* provided you have a remotely typical adventuring party. it is not often so easy for the rogue to have free range to choose any individual of their choice within range of their attack, and that is a critical difference.
That really depends on what you do with your bonus action, what your subclass is, and whether there's anywhere that you can hide. Focused fire is also often the better tactic, so dealing only a little more damage per round than the gunsmith to a "less optimal" target may be the optimal battle strategy anyway.

[SharkForce]

That really depends on what you do with your bonus action, what your subclass is, and whether there's anywhere that you can hide. Focused fire is also often the better tactic, so dealing only a little more damage per round than the gunsmith to a "less optimal" target may be the optimal battle strategy anyway.

focused fire on the least important target is rarely going to be the optimal battle strategy. the other people in the party would be hitting the enemy front line because that's what they can reach, especially while keeping that enemy front line from slaughtering their own wizard. if you had a fighter and a barbarian with a third member (either rogue or artificer) facing a couple of giant apes and an archmage, which do you think they would rather finish off first... the apes or the archmage? unless the archmage is so hard to kill that you could probably get rid of both apes *and* the archmage before the other character could deal with the archmage, it's probably better to go after the archmage. not only because you might kill the archmage, but also because it forces the archmage to deal with the threat; a 40 damage hit might not kill the archmage, but it could break his concentration, and it almost certainly motivates him to try and get to someplace safe instead of continuing to fight, because he can't take that kind of damage round after round for very long.

as to the rogue, you need to be in short range while hiding to be able to get your sneak attack damage on someone (if you're long range, you'll only be cancelling disadvantage by hiding and you won't get sneak attack). meanwhile, the artificer can continue to threaten that damage from longer range than the wizard can probably contribute to the fight from. it really isn't that comparable.

@shirahn: you're forgetting to include hit chance in your DPR calculations. you'll find that in the great majority of situations, sharpshooter is indeed a boost to damage... but not nearly double (also, rogues don't get longbows by default, although that's only a minor damage difference... until it makes the difference between short and long range, that is).