Ignoring Raw/rulings will goodberry + life turn on easy mode?

[ebbisis]

Hi,

I have just got to a point where I will soon have the infamous good berry + life domain combo (lvl 4)
On the wizards site and on Sage advise the combo has been validated, however it feels unbalanced and I don't want to use the ruling if it seems to cheesy.
I was wondering if players here have experienced the game while playing the life domain + good berry combination and if it has made lower levels much easier?

I can imagine where the DM wanted to try provide several consecutive battles , for the price of a spell slot or 2 the whole party will have enough HP to go in to each encounter on full health , leaving plenty of spell slots for offence. Will this be to much of an advantage to keep the encounters challenging?

This in an opinion thread so I don't expect a definite answer.

Thanks!

[Cespenar]

It's not that different from a short rest, in my opinion, and the DM can always add a guy or two if the consecutive encounters seem too weak after a while.

A single Entangle or Bless spell can net the group more gain than this combo anyway, I think, so go nuts with it if you want.

[hymer]

Since Goodberry is so slow, it should probably be compared to Prayer of Healing. Healing 40hp with a first level slot or around 100hp with a second level spell seem pretty similar to me, and I haven't felt Prayer of Healing to be overpowered.

[DivisibleByZero]

It's not that different from a short rest, in my opinion, and the DM can always add a guy or two if the consecutive encounters seem too weak after a while.

A single Entangle or Bless spell can net the group more gain than this combo anyway, I think, so go nuts with it if you want.


Since Goodberry is so slow, it should probably be compared to Prayer of Healing. Healing 40hp with a first level slot or around 100hp with a second level spell seem pretty similar to me, and I haven't felt Prayer of Healing to be overpowered.

Both of these.
It's essentially out of combat healing akin to spending HD on a short rest, but only at a few points per round per player. In combat it's essentially a potion. But it costs a spell slot to create these "potions" or this out of combat healing.
If it were huge burst healing it would be OP. But because of the slot needed and the slow rate at which you can potentially "fill up" and the fact that it's a whole lot less useful in combat, and the fact that it requires either a feat of a multiclass to pull off, it works fine.

[coredump]

To me, the potential problem isn't the healing per berry, it's getting to us up all those unused slots at the end of the day. Morning comes and you have all of your spell slots AND you have 60 berries that can heal 240 hps. (Assuming only 6 slots used)

[xyianth]

It only gets problematic when combined with pact magic. 40hp per lvl 1 slot isn't much of a problem because of the opportunity cost. 40hp/slot when that slot refreshes every short rest is significantly more problematic. It essentially ensures that your party will always be at nearly max hp for every encounter.

[DivisibleByZero]

To me, the potential problem isn't the healing per berry, it's getting to us up all those unused slots at the end of the day. Morning comes and you have all of your spell slots AND you have 60 berries that can heal 240 hps. (Assuming only 6 slots used)

There's an easy workaround for that potential abuse though, and that's to make it so that the berries last for 24 hours or until you take a long rest, whichever comes first.

[ad_hoc]

You can heal without expending any slots by simply purchasing Healing Potions. There are also hit dice during short rests and you get all of your HP back after a long rest.

I think it's a fine combo. It's really not worth the expense to do it.

[Sir cryosin]

To me, the potential problem isn't the healing per berry, it's getting to us up all those unused slots at the end of the day. Morning comes and you have all of your spell slots AND you have 60 berries that can heal 240 hps. (Assuming only 6 slots used)

How often do you get a night's sleep without a encounter. I would not do this just for the fear of having a night encounter.

[RickAllison]

How often do you get a night's sleep without a encounter. I would not do this just for the fear of having a night encounter.

... Every night except when we were forced to take a long rest in the middle of a necromancer's castle? And we were prepared for that one with traps, sentinels, and everything. Except for my rogue. He had flown off to a nearby village because he suddenly had a load of semi-valuable goods in his Bag of Holding to sell...

[Sir cryosin]

... Every night except when we were forced to take a long rest in the middle of a necromancer's castle? And we were prepared for that one with traps, sentinels, and everything. Except for my rogue. He had flown off to a nearby village because he suddenly had a load of semi-valuable goods in his Bag of Holding to sell...

Then you have a kind DM or you're using spells like Lehman's tiny Hut

[RickAllison]

Then you have a kind DM or you're using spells like Lehman's tiny Hut

We have been using Tiny Hut since we got it, but our DM was just good about only creating encounters where they made sense. If we were in a city as ordinary travelers, it wouldn't make much sense to be awoken by assassins in our rooms at the inn. We have only had long rest encounters when we have invited it by lodging in inhabited places. If we find a cave, we neutralize the inhabitants first. If we are in an inn and expect trouble, we keep lookouts. Our DM just doesn't feel a need to kill us when we have reasonably precluded interruptions based on the terrain. So that means resting in a dungeon is dangerous, but keeping protected spaces is significantly less so.

[Gawayne]

I don't really think it's OP. The cost to be able to use this combo is pretty steep, specially considering the higher the level of the players, the least useful it gets.

And to be honest, if this combo is OP the fault lies on the DM, not on the mechanics. That means the DM is throwing too many meaningless encounters and traps solely aimed at wearing the players down without ever being actually threatening. I find it pretty boring when DMs do that. You roll initiave knowing there's absolutely no chance for the enemies to win, it's only about getting a couple of hits to shave off my HP. So pretty much no one will spend any of their powers, turning the fight into a drag of repetitive uninteresting rounds.

When I design encounters to wear the players down I always target their resources, not the HP. I make every encounter life threatening so the players gotta take risks and manage the uses of their powers properly. HP comes and goes easily, a 9th Level Spell Slot? Not so much. And why would any BBEG design a trap to lightly injure trespassers? They'd put things that would imprison, severely maim or outright kill unwanted guests.

[RickAllison]

They'd put things that would trap, severely maim or outright kill unwanted guests.

Don't forget to split them! Splitting the party is a sure-fire way to screw with their carefully-crafted plans.

[Gawayne]

Don't forget to split them! Splitting the party is a sure-fire way to screw with their carefully-crafted plans.

True. I also forgot Alarm Traps. Wich are, in fact, the most dangerous of them all depending on the BBEG. Not only the players lose the possibility of a surprise round, now they are the ones who'll most likely suffer it's effects. Nothing more dangerous than an entrenched and aware BBEG surrounded by his guards, ready to unleash hell the second the players show their faces.

And those are so simple, even the lowliest Goblin could set one up. All you need is a bell and a few feet of twine.

[LordVonDerp]

To me, the potential problem isn't the healing per berry, it's getting to us up all those unused slots at the end of the day. Morning comes and you have all of your spell slots AND you have 60 berries that can heal 240 hps. (Assuming only 6 slots used)
What unused slots? You get one use of goodberry per long rest.

[Citan]

Hi,

I have just got to a point where I will soon have the infamous good berry + life domain combo (lvl 4)
On the wizards site and on Sage advise the combo has been validated, however it feels unbalanced and I don't want to use the ruling if it seems to cheesy.
I was wondering if players here have experienced the game while playing the life domain + good berry combination and if it has made lower levels much easier?

I can imagine where the DM wanted to try provide several consecutive battles , for the price of a spell slot or 2 the whole party will have enough HP to go in to each encounter on full health , leaving plenty of spell slots for offence. Will this be to much of an advantage to keep the encounters challenging?

This in an opinion thread so I don't expect a definite answer.

Thanks!
Short answer: should make party life much easier without being game breaking.
Less short answer: depends on your DM.

Honestly, the big benefit of this combo is basically saving (much) money that would be otherwise spent on healing potions.
But it's useless for in-combat healing, except niche case of a Thief using it for himself (I wonder if by RAW you could make an ally "force eat" a berry to make him go from 0 to 4 HP?)...

Unless your DM was planning a big attrition campaign, shouldn't make that much difference to him (= if he is usually setting up hard/deadly encounters in which enemies can one/two-shot a character or otherwise get a high chance to cripple it, it just gives you a significant boost in resources but won't ruin the risk nor the fun imo).

[Desamir]

Here's my beef with this ruling. Disciple of Life says:

DISCIPLE OF LIFE

Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level.

Grim Harvest (Necromancer Wizard feature) says:

GRIM HARVEST

Once per turn when you kill one or more creatures with a spell of 1st level or higher, you regain hit points equal to twice the spell's level, or three times its level if the spell belongs to the School of Necromancy.

Let's say we make a few zombies using Animate Dead. If we assume that eating berries created by an instantaneous spell counts as "using a spell to restore hit points to a creature," then it follows logically that killing things with a zombie created by an instantaneous spell counts as "killing one or more creatures with a spell."

Ergo, Grim Harvest would heal the necromancer when his minions kill things--but JC made the exact opposite ruling (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/708427193009905664), with the following rationale:

Animate dead is instantaneous. It creates undead, then ends. Those undead, not the spell, can deal damage.

That exact same rationale could be used to say why Goodberry + Disciple of Life shouldn't work:

Goodberry is instantaneous. It creates berries, then ends. Those berries, not the spell, can restore hit points.

[MaxDPSsays]

I don't like the ruling of the life domain working with goodberry, but it is what it is. That being said, I have always wondered if anyone would really want to, or be able to, eat several of them back to back. I'm away from book right now, but I'm pretty sure eating one good berry fills you up as if you just ate a meal. How many meals/berries can you really force down before either throwing them up or saying....nah man I'm stuffed, can I get a cure wounds instead this time?

[Ruslan]

Hi,

I have just got to a point where I will soon have the infamous good berry + life domain combo (lvl 4)
On the wizards site and on Sage advise the combo has been validated, however it feels unbalanced and I don't want to use the ruling if it seems to cheesy.
I was wondering if players here have experienced the game while playing the life domain + good berry combination and if it has made lower levels much easier?

I can imagine where the DM wanted to try provide several consecutive battles , for the price of a spell slot or 2 the whole party will have enough HP to go in to each encounter on full health , leaving plenty of spell slots for offence. Will this be to much of an advantage to keep the encounters challenging?

This in an opinion thread so I don't expect a definite answer.

Thanks!
I actually like it when the party is guaranteed to start every encounter at full health. This makes encounter design more predictable. You can make every encounter harder to compensate.

Also, resources such as spells, Action Surge uses, Inspiration uses, etc. are still used up, so attrition does set in at the end of an adventuring day.

[ebbisis]

Thanks for all the feed back , its put things in to perspective. I like the rationale that yes healing potions could be purchased and it would have the same effect but cost more.

If I said that I was gonna use my left over spell slots to cast more berries I think DM would attack us all with fruit bats in the night. Still would be good to say I could possibly do it to see the reaction heh heh heh