Lore Bard help

[Azazel_Unbound]

So, I am the only caster in my party and we are all playing at level ten for this campaign. I am at a huge crossroads with every spell I take because, especially with magical secrets, I have so many options. Does anyone have any recommendations that I should take?

[BiPolar]

So, I am the only caster in my party and we are all playing at level ten for this campaign. I am at a huge crossroads with every spell I take because, especially with magical secrets, I have so many options. Does anyone have any recommendations that I should take?

There are an immense number of threads here asking this, but a lot of it depends on your role in the party as well as the party make-up.

Who else is in your party?
Are you a combat focused group, or is there a good amount of roleplay/non-combat interactions?
What is the theme of your character?
What are you current spells?
What is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

[RSP]

Azazel,
There's a good Lore Bard guide out there that discusses some good options, as well as a bunch of threads here on GitP you could look through; it's a popular topic around here.

My 2 cents: I'd load up on the buffs/debuffs, control and utility spells offered with the Bard list. Spells like Fear, Heroism, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, and Suggestion are some good ones to start with (though I'd go Fear rather than Hypnotic Pattern, you probably don't need both).

Then grab a damage spell or two (Thunderclap and Heat Metal are both good).

For AMS and MS: go with non-Concentration spells as the Bard list is already full of them. Popular choices include Counterspell at lvl 6, with Fireball as a good AoE, but I'd probably just pick Destructive Wave at 10th instead, though the range of Fireball is better.

Really the choices with MS tends to be very character/group driven.

[Azazel_Unbound]

So to answer post 1:
1. We have a vengeance Paladin (so I unintentionally lied there, he's 1/3rd caster is what they're classified?), a fighter, and a gunslinger
2. It seems so far to be combat oriented
3. The theme I'm going for is a fairly suave fellow, jumping between persuasion and deception with a dash of thievery and a constant search of knowledge.
4. as for spells:
can: friends, light, minor illusion, vicious mockery
1st: charm person, dissonant whispers,
2n: heat metal,suggestion
3rd hypnotic pattern, lightning bolt
4th: polymorph, dimension door, guardian of faith
5th, raise dead, animate objects, bigby's hand, and telekinesis.

2nd post response: I have seen a few of the guides, which helped me build the character mechanically to be a bit more optimized. However, with the spell options it makes me question my choices more than solidify them. I also think I have toploaded in 5th lvl spells.

Which ones should I drop, replace, or keep?

[BiPolar]

So to answer post 1:
1. We have a vengeance Paladin (so I unintentionally lied there, he's 1/3rd caster is what they're classified?), a fighter, and a gunslinger
2. It seems so far to be combat oriented
3. The theme I'm going for is a fairly suave fellow, jumping between persuasion and deception with a dash of thievery and a constant search of knowledge.
4. as for spells:
can: friends, light, minor illusion, vicious mockery
1st: charm person, dissonant whispers,
2n: heat metal,suggestion
3rd hypnotic pattern, lightning bolt
4th: polymorph, dimension door, guardian of faith
5th, raise dead, animate objects, bigby's hand, and telekinesis.

2nd post response: I have seen a few of the guides, which helped me build the character mechanically to be a bit more optimized. However, with the spell options it makes me question my choices more than solidify them. I also think I have toploaded in 5th lvl spells.

Which ones should I drop, replace, or keep?

Hmm, I'm not sure I'd keep Raise Dead. It's handy to get a character back up and running, but that's a big spell to keep on hand, unless your DM doesn't let you create new characters after they die or if they have to take a big hit to XP to do so.

Otherwise, I think you've got a pretty good spread of choices. Lightning bolt is a lot of fun, although you don't have a lot of area effect options, and that's where Fireball really shines.

Guardian of Faith is a big spell to drop, but if the creature dies before it's given out 60 HP of damage, it's kind of a waste. I think there are better spells to snag with magical secrets. And if you're the only caster, then Counterspell is HUGE. If you go up against any casters, you'll want that to stop them.

I'd also consider Wall of Force over telekinesis. That wall can instantly divide up or sequester an enemy (or protect your team.) It's a pretty neat spell.

And Animate Objects is freaking fantastic...especially with the Tiny objects route.

Picking up Greater Invisibility could be massive to your front line guys as well. WHen other concentration spells aren't an option, that's a nice one to buff your party.

And then there's Bless. It's a low level choice for Secrets, but it's something that can really help the whole party.

[Specter]

You seem to be 1 spell light when it comes to Magical Secrets. I only see Guardian of Faith.

As I always say, Counterspell today and every day. So much goodness. For the level 10 MagicalSecrets, check Ranger and Paladin lists, so much good stuff going on there. Notable mentions to Circle of Power and Conjure Volley.

[Azazel_Unbound]

Bipolar,

I took what you said into account and changed things up.


You seem to be 1 spell light when it comes to Magical Secrets. I only see Guardian of Faith.

As I always say, Counterspell today and every day. So much goodness. For the level 10 MagicalSecrets, check Ranger and Paladin lists, so much good stuff going on there. Notable mentions to Circle of Power and Conjure Volley.

As for that, one of them was mass cure wounds I do believe.

Edit: Actually, I think Im confusing my list. Gotta redo it!

[BiPolar]

Bipolar,

I took what you said into account and changed things up.



As for that, one of them was mass cure wounds I do believe.

What's your new list look like?

[Azazel_Unbound]

What's your new list look like?

1. Charm person, dissonant whispers, unseen servant
2. Heat metal, suggestion
3. Fear, plantgrowth, hypnotic pattern, fireball, counterspell
4. Greater invisibility, polymorph
5. Animate objects, mass cure wounds, wall of force, bigby’s hand.


Thoughts?

[BiPolar]

1. Charm person, dissonant whispers, unseen servant
2. Heat metal, suggestion
3. Fear, plantgrowth, hypnotic pattern, fireball, counterspell
4. Greater invisibility, polymorph
5. Animate objects, mass cure wounds, wall of force, bigby’s hand.


Thoughts?

I've always liked the fluff of Unseen Servant, but haven't really had a situation in my games where it's been useful. How do see using it?

To give you an idea of my build (11th level Bard), here is what I've got:
1. Dissonant Whispers(don't forget to use this when both your melee combatants are engaged, free non-concentration OA!), faerie fire (it's a save/suck, but it's great to give advantage or light up invisible enemies), Healing Word, cure wounds
2. Heat metal, hold person, phantasmal force (my DM gives us pretty free reign on imaginative uses of this), see invisibility, dispel magic
3. hypnotic pattern, fireball, counterspell
4. Greater Invisibility, polymorph, DimensionDoor
5. Hold Monster, animate objects, Bigby's hand, Wall of Force, Dominate Person

Plantgrowth is pretty nice, hard to say not to that :)

[Azazel_Unbound]

I'll definitely be considering your build. Its got a few interesting bits.

As for unseen servant: My DM said Cha is going to be highly useful in this campaign. Hinting to it being a bit more social. So, I see my character, supposed a suave fellow, using this servant to serve drinks, help the fair ladies (and noble lords) he is with. Figured it would be a nice bit of flavor.

Also, plant growth, good battlefield control and a nice flavor for wining the favor of farmers and a fun little imagery of my guy playing is instrument until the land is rich.

[BiPolar]

I'll definitely be considering your build. Its got a few interesting bits.

As for unseen servant: My DM said Cha is going to be highly useful in this campaign. Hinting to it being a bit more social. So, I see my character, supposed a suave fellow, using this servant to serve drinks, help the fair ladies (and noble lords) he is with. Figured it would be a nice bit of flavor.

Also, plant growth, good battlefield control and a nice flavor for wining the favor of farmers and a fun little imagery of my guy playing is instrument until the land is rich.

Gotcha - consider Mass Suggestion then as well. Incredibly powerful (but as with suggestion, it's going to be very DM dependent on what you can do with it.)

You should absolutely talk with your DM about suggestion use as well as illusion to see how far they're willing to let you go with your imagination.

The way I look at the Bard is a phenomenal support character. They are there to contribute themselves, but also to have a tool in their toolbox for nearly any situation (also known as being the bane of a DM.)

[Azazel_Unbound]

Yeah, I am considering switching suggestion for mass suggestion. Also, on illusions and enchantments, my DM is fairly negotiable. So, I will speak with her. She's especially willing to negotiate with me, being I have most of the rules on memory compared to my compatriots and her. Also considering dropping a spell for major image for that illusion factor, or phantasmal force.

Edit: Would I be crazy if I dipped two into wizard to get an at will charm from enchantment wiz?

[BiPolar]

Yeah, I am considering switching suggestion for mass suggestion. Also, on illusions and enchantments, my DM is fairly negotiable. So, I will speak with her. She's especially willing to negotiate with me, being I have most of the rules on memory compared to my compatriots and her. Also considering dropping a spell for major image for that illusion factor, or phantasmal force.

I had major image and just couldn't make it useful enough to keep. Phantasmal Force can be a ton of fun depending on DM ruling. If they're open to applying things like "burning chains come up from the ground" to both give damage and hold them in place. The latter requires some loose rulings, but definitely reasonable as long as you don't spam the same thing over and over again.

I was able to get a major image to work once, but it just didn't feel worth it. Although maybe I'm just not coming up with a good enough illusion :)

[BiPolar]

Yeah, I am considering switching suggestion for mass suggestion. Also, on illusions and enchantments, my DM is fairly negotiable. So, I will speak with her. She's especially willing to negotiate with me, being I have most of the rules on memory compared to my compatriots and her. Also considering dropping a spell for major image for that illusion factor, or phantasmal force.

Edit: Would I be crazy if I dipped two into wizard to get an at will charm from enchantment wiz?

I am not a fan of the MC bard. Delaying all of the Bard goodies just isn't really worth it (and I've done a Warlock 2 dip and mostly regret it.)

[Azazel_Unbound]

I had major image and just couldn't make it useful enough to keep. Phantasmal Force can be a ton of fun depending on DM ruling. If they're open to applying things like "burning chains come up from the ground" to both give damage and hold them in place. The latter requires some loose rulings, but definitely reasonable as long as you don't spam the same thing over and over again.

I was able to get a major image to work once, but it just didn't feel worth it. Although maybe I'm just not coming up with a good enough illusion :)


I am not a fan of the MC bard. Delaying all of the Bard goodies just isn't really worth it (and I've done a Warlock 2 dip and mostly regret it.)

Good things to know, thank you!

[RSP]

If trying to be the party face, you might want to switch something out for Enhance Ability. Most RP social situations take less than an hour of in game time and Advantage on all those Chr rolls is a great way to ensure you deceive/persuade/intimidate as needed.

[Azazel_Unbound]

If trying to be the party face, you might want to switch something out for Enhance Ability. Most RP social situations take less than an hour of in game time and Advantage on all those Chr rolls is a great way to ensure you deceive/persuade/intimidate as needed.

The cantrip friends gives me that bonus. Charisma wise at least

[BiPolar]

The cantrip friends gives me that bonus. Charisma wise at least
Yea, with the penalty of them being aggressive to you or you stick around past the minute it's active.

[RSP]

Yeah I wouldn't be so fast to assume Friends is an adequate replacement for Enhance Ability. First off, Friends works for only a minute and only on one creature. Second, as already mentioned, after that minute, the target becomes hostile to you.

If you're really trying to become a Face for your group, you probably don't want to have everyone you need to deal with becoming hostile to you after a minute.

Also, most important NPC interactions last longer than a minute, and though DM dependent, keep in mind others will know you're casting a spell.

And finally, it really does nothing when needing to effect more than one person (other than make one of those people hostile towards you after a minute or less).

[Citan]

1. Charm person, dissonant whispers, unseen servant
2. Heat metal, suggestion
3. Fear, plantgrowth, hypnotic pattern, fireball, counterspell
4. Greater invisibility, polymorph
5. Animate objects, mass cure wounds, wall of force, bigby’s hand.


Thoughts?
Hi!

Interesting that you don't have Healing Words. ;)
Otherwise, nice array of buffs/debuffs/AOE, I would like to put a word for Slow though: while competing with Fear and Hypnotic Pattern as a mass control/debuff, it offers another approach.
Hypnotic Pattern is extremely strong but breaks as soon as you damage creatures, so it's great for RP situations (peacefully breaking and entering), a bit more difficult to use in fight.
Fear is great to put enemy troops in disarray, but the forced movement is not always what you would like the enemy to do (unless you are in a party when everyone has strong ranged attacks ;)).

Slow severely hampers enemy dangerosity by limiting to one weapon attack and delaying spells, along with making enemies easier to hit and slowing their movement.

Not saying that this makes it "better", only that if you like being the one who controls the battlefield, this may be a nice addition to your array. Bad point of Slow though is that enemy makes a saving throw each turn.

So that makes it a kind of middle ground, both in potential duration and kind of effects, between HP and Fear. ;)

Also, Enhance Ability is a nice spell to have considering you can buff any and every ability check with it, so it's in the top 3 of versatility for this spell tier.

[Citan]

Yeah, I am considering switching suggestion for mass suggestion. Also, on illusions and enchantments, my DM is fairly negotiable. So, I will speak with her. She's especially willing to negotiate with me, being I have most of the rules on memory compared to my compatriots and her. Also considering dropping a spell for major image for that illusion factor, or phantasmal force.

Edit: Would I be crazy if I dipped two into wizard to get an at will charm from enchantment wiz?


I am not a fan of the MC bard. Delaying all of the Bard goodies just isn't really worth it (and I've done a Warlock 2 dip and mostly regret it.)

Good things to know, thank you!
Allow me to put a different opinion.

He is already a lvl 10 Lore Bard. What good features are left?
- BI die size increase: nice, but not THAT important.
- Song of Rest: am I the only one feeling this is a totally forgettable increase in die?
- Peerless Skill: this one is good. No argue there. A bit annoying to wait for that one.

So only spellcasting in general and Magic Secrets in particular are really interesting now.
Which sums up to "does OP prefer having more powerful spells as early as possible, or does he prefer getting strong daily benefit early and wait much longer for his new spells?"

So I wouldn't "reject" dipping in general.
However, I do agree with you on OP's particular idea: Wizard's 2nd level feature is not powerful enough imo to warrant two whole levels of lagging as a Bard.

Wizard in general *could* maybe still be worth it though, either if OP really wants many 1st level spells (including ones he knows as Bard so he can "retrain" later), such as Shield, Magic Missile, Unseen Servant, Tenser's Floating Disk (so only 1 level dip)...
OR he has high enough INT to make Bladesinger a good choice to help with AC and concentration (2 level dips).

@OP: honestly though, as long as you don't feel you *need* some 1st level feature of another class to survive or enable something very fun (*cough* Repelling Blast on Spike Growth *cough*), I would refrain from dipping, simply because it's not that often that you can jumpstart towards 6th and higher spells. ;)

[BiPolar]

Allow me to put a different opinion.

He is already a lvl 10 Lore Bard. What good features are left?
- BI die size increase: nice, but not THAT important.
- Song of Rest: am I the only one feeling this is a totally forgettable increase in die?
- Peerless Skill: this one is good. No argue there. A bit annoying to wait for that one.

That is an excellent point! Although if he starts out at 10 and dips 1-2 levels elsewhere, he won't get the magical secrets for another 11k or 36k XP.

These are the levels I was talking about where you feel those delays. And delaying the 10th level magic secrets (5th level spells), 6th level bard spells (Otto, etc.) and the increased bardic inspiration dice can make a difference.

That being said, as the only caster, only having Mass Cure Wounds may be problematic as that spell slot may have been used for offensive spells and now there are no healing options (healing word distant bonus action or touching Cure Wounds.)

[Azazel_Unbound]

You all make very excellent points, I'll look at the list, see what I can live without (Mass cure wounds for example) and where I can fit those spells mentioned.