ToB options for a Barbarian

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all

So I have been watching our rogue fall further and further behind the rest of the party in usefulness (the player isnt there one week in 2 so I dont want to fill a location with rogue things like traps and locks only to have the party finish the session inside such a place and have the rogue not turn up next session, screwing the rest of the party), and I also want to make combat a little more interesting when I throw mundane NPCs at them, so I am bringing in ToB for dips and such (for now, full characters may come later, but we are seriously low op right now).

Rogue is all up for it, couple of levels in swordsage and they think they will be sorted.

The Barbarian is already really good in combat (like I said, low op). Pounce, power attack, cleave, lots and lots of single target damage. And we are talking classic barb. Low int. So how best does a barbarian synergise with ToB feats and dips?

[Darrin]

The Barbarian is already really good in combat (like I said, low op). Pounce, power attack, cleave, lots and lots of single target damage. And we are talking classic barb. Low int. So how best does a barbarian synergise with ToB feats and dips?

Greataxe is a Tiger Claw weapon. How's his Jump skill? About half the Tiger Claw maneuvers are "make a Jump check to do something". If he has armor spikes or Improved Unarmed Strike, then he can combine TWF with two-handed attacks. So I'd probably steer him towards Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 3.

[Fouredged Sword]

A barbarian can basically take and TOB class and be pretty flavorful. Warblade tends to be a more "I am the ultimate warrior!" (punishing stance, Mountain hammer) sorta thing while Crusader tends to turn you into an unkillable slab of meat that just won't die (healing stance, healing strike, mountain hammer). Oddly if he didn't dump wis he can make a pretty interesting swordsage dip. Wis to AC in light armor and setting sun/stone dragon make for an interesting combination. It's a more in tune with the world sort of barbarian, but it works.

He should take Mountain Hammer though. Too good to pass up.

[emeraldstreak]

Mad Foam Rager and Iron Heart Surge are a classic.

[HurinTheCursed]

At the risk of being off topic, a barbarian can also partially fill the role of the rogue using the Dungeonscape variant (I did it in my group for similar reasons). He can use survival to detect mechanical traps, BAB to destroy traps (use a reach weapon !) and with an adamantine weapon, he can destroy most doors.

For the rest of the party, a wand of Knock, of Detect Snares and Pits, of Detect magic or someone with a high search skill could be useful.

[Albions_Angel]

At the risk of being off topic, a barbarian can also partially fill the role of the rogue using the Dungeonscape variant (I did it in my group for similar reasons). He can use survival to detect mechanical traps, BAB to destroy traps (use a reach weapon !) and with an adamantine weapon, he can destroy most doors.

For the rest of the party, a wand of Knock, of Detect Snares and Pits, of Detect magic or someone with a high search skill could be useful.

I wouldnt say its off topic, but it is something I can address.

The game is already going ahead. So variant classes arnt hugely helpful. Also I dont have enough experience with Dungeonscape to have allowed it this time. Already running 5 (now 6) books I have never run before after spending 6 months pouring over them to make sure I felt confident running them.

As for getting the party wands and such, yeah, I could. And they could buy them. But then you have the person who is a rogue going "why am I risking my skin when you have all that?" when they are there, or the party going "why are these even here, we are at 0 risk" when they arnt.

The campaign is rather wilderness-y and combat heavy, and while I pushed for a scout, the player wanted to play a rogue, which is fine, but now they struggle to get off their sneak attack and the extra skill monkey and utility that a rogue gets isnt really doing it.

Hopefully as they level up, I can start playing more rogue related stuff. The story should start to pull them into more traditional dungeons and cities, but before that we have a leveling up exercise in the underdark with everyone level 5, and the rogue has already died once (brought back for free because the death was totally my fault and a result of poor dming).

Actually, the party comp and playstyle is kinda out of whack a bit. Super happy with the barbarian, and the bard who wasnt quite cutting it switched to a dread necro and is now super useful. THe druid still has some issues I have detailed before. I am worried about the DFA who initially liked her char, but is sort of limited to stand and breath at this level. And the rogue is having trouble. All players are free to retire and bring in new chars as and when they want, so long as they let me know before hand, but you know what players and attachment is like.

By all accounts, it should be a reasonable low op party. Single Target High Damage Martial, Skill Monkey/Burst Damage, Full Caster/Battlefield Control/Secondary Martial, Blaster(ish)/Utility Caster(ish)/Continuous Ranged Damage, Summoner/Debuff Caster. But a combination of inexperience overall and inexperience with 3.5e, plus a certain expectation from my last group means that I often accidentally pitch things above their limits/use the system a bit too much to its potential for them to keep up, or else pitch things way too low. We are slowly reaching an equilibrium thats good for the party, but thats leaving some members out in the cold. Hence ToB.

[Dagroth]

The Rogue class almost needs to be in a city or dungeon environment to work. The Scout class does everything you need to do in the wilderness with a Rogue-ish style.

Also, for backstab, a Rogue needs to either get some form of invisibility or more than just one other melee fighter in the group. There are a couple of skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel that can help, too.

Fortunately, Swordsage can get a form of invisibility... as well as concealment (almost as good) and other tricks that will help a lot.

Entangling Exhalation for the DFA will seriously make the Rogue's day. Entangled opponents are excellent sneak-attack bait.

Try to encourage teamwork. Do things like saying "Make a Knowledge: Arcana (Nature, Religion, whatever) check... okay, by what your character knows, this monster is pretty resistant to your breath weapon/attack style, what-have-you. You're probably better off working with (whoever)."

Don't make it obvious you're giving them free information... make it based on skill checks or Int rolls, so you're "rewarding" good skills and high die rolls.

[HurinTheCursed]

The game is already going ahead. So variant classes arnt hugely helpful. Also I dont have enough experience with Dungeonscape to have allowed it this time. Already running 5 (now 6) books I have never run before after spending 6 months pouring over them to make sure I felt confident running them.

As for getting the party wands and such, yeah, I could. And they could buy them. But then you have the person who is a rogue going "why am I risking my skin when you have all that?" when they are there, or the party going "why are these even here, we are at 0 risk" when they arnt.
Our rogue being very unreliable, having ran out of leadership companions to fill missing roles (because the rogue player changed role very often without saying us, we were left without arcane, without healer and without trap specialist), my character retrained around level 10. It makes the barbarian more useful and more at risk, you have nothing to fear regarding game balance about this specific point. I really loved this book (written by Rich Burlew) as it is the first D&D supplement I found useful even outside D&D. I don't remember anything more groundbreaking than the dungeoncrasher fighter variant (which helps a weaker class) and the mundane wand bracer but I cannot say it's perfectly safe and I understand your will to include only material you deem balanced.


The campaign is rather wilderness-y and combat heavy, and while I pushed for a scout, the player wanted to play a rogue, which is fine, but now they struggle to get off their sneak attack and the extra skill monkey and utility that a rogue gets isnt really doing it.

Hopefully as they level up, I can start playing more rogue related stuff. The story should start to pull them into more traditional dungeons and cities, but before that we have a leveling up exercise in the underdark with everyone level 5, and the rogue has already died once (brought back for free because the death was totally my fault and a result of poor dming).
So up to now, it was less a problem for the group and more a problem for the rogue player.

Underdark is notoriously difficult, is there an experienced player to guide them to "safety procedures" ?