What to call a faithless cleric

[tedcahill2]

I'm redesigning the cleric for an upcoming campaign taking away their ability to prepare and cleric spell, and instead they will be spontaneous casters, with a spell list comprised of 1) all 0 level spells 2) one spell of their choice per level 3) all spells from their domains.

Additionally, clerics will get additional domains and abilities every 5 levels. It will not be required, and may actually be common place, that divine magic doesn't come from the gods, and so most clerics will be free to choose their domains based on their own set of ideals.

With this in mind, can anyone think of a good name for the cleric, that removes the religious implication?

I was trying to think of something based on them having conviction, or being advocates for their virtues, but I haven't thought of anything solid.

[Spellbreaker26]

Hierophant?

[Keltest]

Invoker? Channeler? Conduit?

[Pleh]

Sounds highly compatible with magic of incarnum fluff.

Maybe Incarnate could be borrowed?

[Deeds]

Mage
Acolyte of Possibilities
Bender
Spell Shepard
Magematician
Oracle
Idealist
Adept

Perhaps add their domain or ideal as a prefix. Storm Oracle, Law Mage, Fire Adept, Hunger Magematician, etc.

[Dagroth]

I'm redesigning the cleric for an upcoming campaign taking away their ability to prepare and cleric spell, and instead they will be spontaneous casters, with a spell list comprised of 1) all 0 level spells 2) one spell of their choice per level 3) all spells from their domains.

Additionally, clerics will get additional domains and abilities every 5 levels. It will not be required, and may actually be common place, that divine magic doesn't come from the gods, and so most clerics will be free to choose their domains based on their own set of ideals.

With this in mind, can anyone think of a good name for the cleric, that removes the religious implication?

I was trying to think of something based on them having conviction, or being advocates for their virtues, but I haven't thought of anything solid.

It sounds like you're taking the Favored Soul spells-per-day & spells known mechanic and adding Domains.

[tedcahill2]

Invoker? Channeler? Conduit?

I think invoker works really well for what I'm doing!

Thanks a bunch!

[Segev]

"What do you call a faithless Cleric?" "A Warrior with fewer weapon proficiencies."

[Dagroth]

"What do you call a faithless Cleric?" "A Warrior with fewer weapon proficiencies."

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."

[jedipilot24]

Dragonlance already did a "spontaneous divine caster without religion." It's called the Mystic.

Pathfinder did their own take on that and called it an Oracle.

[Uncle Pine]

Ur-priest.

[Dagroth]

There's also the Spontaneous Cleric in UA.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm redesigning the cleric for an upcoming campaign taking away their ability to prepare and cleric spell, and instead they will be spontaneous casters, with a spell list comprised of 1) all 0 level spells 2) one spell of their choice per level 3) all spells from their domains.

Additionally, clerics will get additional domains and abilities every 5 levels.So...

At 1st, a Cleric would have: 2 domain first level spells, one chosen first level spell.
At 2nd, a Cleric would have: 2 domain first level spells, two chosen first level spells.
...
At 5th, a Cleric would have: 3 domain spells of 1st-3rd, two chosen spells of each level 1-st and 2nd; one chosen spell of 3rd
...
At 10th, a Cleric would have: 4 domain spells of 1st-5th, two chosen spells of each level 1st-5th
...
And so on, all available for spontaneous casting, plus some class features?

That's ... probably a very high tier-2 class, especially if the player has essentially free reign on domain choices.

[Venger]

So...

At 1st, a Cleric would have: 2 domain first level spells, one chosen first level spell.
At 2nd, a Cleric would have: 2 domain first level spells, two chosen first level spells.
...
At 5th, a Cleric would have: 3 domain spells of 1st-3rd, two chosen spells of each level 1-st and 2nd; one chosen spell of 3rd
...
At 10th, a Cleric would have: 4 domain spells of 1st-5th, two chosen spells of each level 1st-5th
...
And so on, all available for spontaneous casting, plus some class features?

That's ... probably a very high tier-2 class, especially if the player has essentially free reign on domain choices.

That sounds about right. Would it change things any if they picked the spell domain? With these kinds of strictures, I feel like it'd be a fairly popular choice, alongside the summoner domain.

[tedcahill2]

I thought about this some more, and here's where my cleric currently lies:

Class name: Invoker
Abilities:
Level 1: Domains (2), channel energy 1d6 (like pathfinder, and increasing by 1d6 at odd levels)
Levels 6, 11, and 16: Additional domain

Spell casting: no changes to spells per day, but domain spell is rolled into total spells.
Spells known: all 0 level spells, all spells from all domains known, and one additional spell at each level (I may exclude additional spells at each level they learn a new domain, 1, 6, 11, and 16).

Since a cleric is normally allowed to access all cleric spells, with preparation, is their spells known list within reason if they get 5 spells per level from each of their domains and 16 to 20 more from the additional spells?

So...

At 1st, a Cleric would have: 2 domain first level spells, one chosen first level spell.
At 2nd, a Cleric would have: 2 domain first level spells, two chosen first level spells.
...
At 5th, a Cleric would have: 3 domain spells of 1st-3rd, two chosen spells of each level 1-st and 2nd; one chosen spell of 3rd
...
At 10th, a Cleric would have: 4 domain spells of 1st-5th, two chosen spells of each level 1st-5th
...
And so on, all available for spontaneous casting, plus some class features?

That's ... probably a very high tier-2 class, especially if the player has essentially free reign on domain choices.
I don't keep up with tiering, does high teir-2 compare well to the core cleric?

[ATHATH]

Elemental?

Also, Dragon Magazine already did basically exactly what you're doing (I think it even has the same domain progression!) with a variant Cleric called the Evangelist. It's in issue #311, if you're interested.

[tedcahill2]

Elemental?

Also, Dragon Magazine already did basically exactly what you're doing (I think it even has the same domain progression!) with a variant Cleric called the Evangelist. It's in issue #311, if you're interested.
You're right, though they get domains at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

They also get more spells per day and way more spells known, 11 lower level spells but even 8 9th spells known.

So the question becomes, does channel energy make up for fewer spells known and slightly fewer spells per day? I think so.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Heathen heretic in need of a smiting?

[Barbarian Horde]

No patron deity for your cleric?!? No divine magic for you sir. This is just based off of the core concept of how the class works. If you don't have faith, your not a cleric; your-- something else. Clerics gain their power in worship of some kind. You being faithless means you don't worship anything. Not a pantheon of gods, not an ideal, nothing at all. Besides doesn't RAW back this up? Something about having to PRAY...

Suggestion
--Your better off saying he believes in everything. (You lack conviction in all faiths but the gods pity you so they grant you... something like a domain spell of their choice.)

[Jack_Simth]

I don't keep up with tiering, does high teir-2 compare well to the core cleric?

Cleric is tier-1. How they compare is going to be... interesting.

At 1st, the Cleric is going to be close to strictly better. The "Close" is when the Cleric player guesses particularly badly as to what's liable to be useful today and runs out of useful actions well before that day's battles are over because the Cleric only prepared one of the needed spells... a situation in which the Invoker has no problems (just cast the same spell over & over). It getting that bad is not common, however.

At 20th, the Invoker will have more options (by a lot - and thus, more power) for any given round... but the Cleric is going to have more options (by a lot - and thus, more power) for any given week. That 20th level Invoker is going to have 5 Domain 9ths and 4 fully chosen 9ths, plus 5 domain and 2 fully chosen spells of each level below 9th... plus all Cleric Osirons... and the Invoker's options don't go down for the day until the Invoker is out of the top tier of spell slots. Meanwhile, that 20th level Cleric is liable to have 6 9th level spells prepared, 7 spells prepared of 6th-8th, 8 spells prepared of 5th, 9 spells each prepared of 1st-4th, and 6 osirons (plus the mostly useless cure or inflict line - and yes, at 20th, it's mostly useless). For the top four spell levels, the Invoker has the same or better "at his fingertips" options that are going to be available pretty much all day, but the Cleric's options are reduced with each spell cast. However, the Cleric can change the spell loadout completely from day to day - so if you happen to know (perhaps via Commune), that you'll be facing a lot of Fire creatures today, the Cleric can load up on Energy Immunity (Spell Compendium) and spam out Fire Immunity for the whole party. Meanwhile, the Invoker either has the spell, or doesn't. At most tables the Cleric's advantage is going to be minor at 20th (few players work at it enough, and few DMs plan far enough ahead, for the Cleric to always have the perfect loadout for the day), so the 20th level Invoker will usually be stronger at pretty much everything except item crafting (assuming that you permit channel energy to power divine feats, anyway).

Edit: Oh, wait: 6, 11, and 16 for domains, not 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. Eh. The above still mostly holds.

[Kol Korran]

...With this in mind, can anyone think of a good name for the cleric, that removes the religious implication?

I was trying to think of something based on them having conviction, or being advocates for their virtues, but I haven't thought of anything solid.

Hmmm... I know there are similar (Or identical) class names in 3.5 or PF, but some ideas:
- Spiritualist
- Philosopher
- Blessed one
- Connected
- True path
Some other ideas, if the domains are tied to a view point/ philosophy/ aspect of behavior or the world, even if not through deities:
- Aspect ("Aspect of darkness/ Aspect of death/ or combinations of domains...)
- Exemplar (The same idea... Exemplar of...)
- Facet
- Spark (Different domains may have different names. "Spark" may be good for fire, life, hope, and more... Yet other domains may have their own names- "Pebble" of earth, "Droplet" for water, "Soldier" for war, and so on... Again, if you combine domains you may combine names. Such as fore example, if you choose fire and war, perhaps "Ember blade", or so on... When the class grows in power, the name can reflect this, perhaps every time they gain a new domain? For example, if someone started with Travel and Luck, they may be called "wandering chance" to begin with, but as they gain their next domain, (Lets say... Healing) then their title can change to "Journeyman of fortune" or so on... You can add the third domain (Say "Merciful Journeyman of Fortune"? Just an idea...)
- Opening/ gateway (As in an opening to the forces beyond)
- Shard (Shard of... You can say that the divine power was broken into shards, and each such person is a fragment, and as their power grow, they collect more of the shattered power unto themselves)

Just ideas...

[tedcahill2]

Sounds like I nailed it from a power perspective!


Edit: Oh, wait: 6, 11, and 16 for domains, not 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th. Eh. The above still mostly holds.
If I base this off the evangelist, who get 2 domains +1 at level 5, 10, 15, and 20, but do not get turn undead, is it a worth while trade to change domain progression to 6, 11, 16 (for a total of 5 domains at level 16 instead of 6 domains at level 6) and grant turn undead/channel energy?

Note: yes I would allow uses of channel energy to power feats based on turn undead.

[tedcahill2]

No patron deity for your cleric?!? No divine magic for you sir. This is just based off of the core concept of how the class works. If you don't have faith, your not a cleric; your-- something else. Clerics gain their power in worship of some kind. You being faithless means you don't worship anything. Not a pantheon of gods, not an ideal, nothing at all. Besides doesn't RAW back this up? Something about having to PRAY...

Suggestion
--Your better off saying he believes in everything. (You lack conviction in all faiths but the gods pity you so they grant you... something like a domain spell of their choice.)
I'm creating a world where all magic stems from the gods, so there is no true distinction between arcane and divine other than how you access it.

Arcane magic is still accessed in one of two ways, with innate talent (Cha based casters) or with practice and education (Int based casters).

Divine magic however doesn't come from a single god, the gods actually work together to keep balance in the world, granting magic to the best and worst of the world. As long as the divine caster has proven their faith or conviction then they are granted access to their domain magic, coming from the gods collectively as opposed to the single god you worship.

[tedcahill2]

Also, if I wanted to remove the cleric/invoker from gaining any spells outside of their domain list, how many domains would I need to give them.

I think domains are the most interesting thing about a cleric, as each comes with its own domain power. If the clerics spell list was comprised completely of domain spells, but they got two domains at 1 and another domain at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 or every odd level, any something like that.

How well does that keep up with their power? Seems like all the extra domain powers would help balance the smaller spell selection.

[Barbarian Horde]

I'm creating a world where all magic stems from the gods, so there is no true distinction between arcane and divine other than how you access it.

Arcane magic is still accessed in one of two ways, with innate talent (Cha based casters) or with practice and education (Int based casters).

Divine magic however doesn't come from a single god, the gods actually work together to keep balance in the world, granting magic to the best and worst of the world. As long as the divine caster has proven their faith or conviction then they are granted access to their domain magic, coming from the gods collectively as opposed to the single god you worship.

LOL this made me laugh
Then I thought of forgotten realms weave
The Weave is the source of both arcane and divine spellcasting. No true distinction except for how you access it. Ether players are praying for it or they are manipulating energy.. Topic is "What to call a faithless cleric" The answer to your original topic title is "it's not a cleric"

[Pleh]

No patron deity for your cleric?!? No divine magic for you sir. This is just based off of the core concept of how the class works. If you don't have faith, your not a cleric; your-- something else. Clerics gain their power in worship of some kind. You being faithless means you don't worship anything. Not a pantheon of gods, not an ideal, nothing at all. Besides doesn't RAW back this up? Something about having to PRAY...

Suggestion
--Your better off saying he believes in everything. (You lack conviction in all faiths but the gods pity you so they grant you... something like a domain spell of their choice.)

You haven't been reading the phb recently. 3.5 RAW disagrees with you. (Dunno about pf, but I doubt they changed it).

Phb pg 30 under cleric religion specifically states that some clerics follow specific ideals rather than deities.

Their class features back this up.


Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells
A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.


Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Praying to receive divine spells is fluff, not RAW. You could fluff it as meditation.

[Dagroth]

Also, if I wanted to remove the cleric/invoker from gaining any spells outside of their domain list, how many domains would I need to give them.

I think domains are the most interesting thing about a cleric, as each comes with its own domain power. If the clerics spell list was comprised completely of domain spells, but they got two domains at 1 and another domain at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 or every odd level, any something like that.

How well does that keep up with their power? Seems like all the extra domain powers would help balance the smaller spell selection.

There are way too many spells (and often very important spells) that aren't on any domain list. Not a good plan.

[Barbarian Horde]

You haven't been reading the phb recently. 3.5 RAW disagrees with you. (Dunno about pf, but I doubt they changed it).

Phb pg 30 under cleric religion specifically states that some clerics follow specific ideals rather than deities.

Their class features back this up.





Praying to receive divine spells is fluff, not RAW. You could fluff it as meditation.

I actually said that. Not sure what your reading. Clerics gain their power in worship of some kind. You being faithless means you don't worship anything. Not a pantheon of gods,not an ideal, nothing at all. Your right someone isn't reading..

Moving on-- Your sure it's not raw for praying because I can go into my phb and find the line that says clerics pray to what ever for their spells.

Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do
they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for
their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as
divine inspiration. PG. 32 PHB


So the original question what do you call a cleric that is faithless... to beat the dead horse again "not a cleric"
If a cleric doesn't have faith what is he praying to to receive their divine magic? Nothing, absolutely nothing, so in return he receives absolutely nothing.

[hamishspence]

So the original question what do you call a cleric that is faithless... to beat the dead horse again "not a cleric"

It was pretty clear from the OP:


It will not be required, and may actually be common place, that divine magic doesn't come from the gods, and so most clerics will be free to choose their domains based on their own set of ideals.

With this in mind, can anyone think of a good name for the cleric, that removes the religious implication?

I was trying to think of something based on them having conviction, or being advocates for their virtues, but I haven't thought of anything solid.

that "faithless" was being treated as a synonym for "religion-less".

[Barbarian Horde]

Yeah those are two different things. I was just answering the Title's Question. I do see the context of what he is asking is different.

Forgotten Realms, Pick a god or you don't get anything.
Greyhawk you can act like a Jedi that believes in the force.. not that midichlorians bs
Home-Brew you can do what ever you want.

[Pleh]

I actually said that. Not sure what your reading. Clerics gain their power in worship of some kind. You being faithless means you don't worship anything. Not a pantheon of gods,not an ideal, nothing at all. Your right someone isn't reading..

Just because you're wrong doesn't mean you have to be rude about it.

By the way, note my correct use of the contraction: "you're". It's really not the same word as "your."

See? I can be rude in correcting people too. But let's drop the sarcastic tone and move on to the rebuttal.


Moving on-- Your sure it's not raw for praying because I can go into my phb and find the line that says clerics pray to what ever for their spells.

Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do
they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for
their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as
divine inspiration. PG. 32 PHB


So the original question what do you call a cleric that is faithless... to beat the dead horse again "not a cleric"
If a cleric doesn't have faith what is he praying to to receive their divine magic? Nothing, absolutely nothing, so in return he receives absolutely nothing.

Here we see that a faithless cleric deep in meditation could receive a moment of divine inspiration. No faith, just a sudden cosmic epiphany as a result of deep contemplation. I think it's pretty clear the authors didn't intend the text to be prescriptive RAW, rather descriptive fluff. It makes no difference to the class rules exactly how you came into possession of your spellcasting powers.

I am a person who is entirely in favor of arguing semantics when the discussion can be useful.

This is not one of those cases. Here the OP made the intention quite clear that "faithless" meant "without religion."

You are misconstruing the intent in order to have something wrong to nitpick at rather than helping the OP resolve its problem.

[hamishspence]

Given that, from Elder Evils, the Elder Evil Sertrous's schtick was teaching that one could gain divine power as a cleric from something other than a deity - and given that Sertrous's adventure can be adapted to Forgotten Realms - it's possible that in FR, one can play a "cleric of an ideal" and actually have it work.

That said, it may be a case of "power is coming from a deity who is hiding themselves".