Speculation Can someone explain Frenzy? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Grondar

2017-02-23, 03:53 PM

Specter

2017-02-23, 03:55 PM

No errata, but many player solutions have been presented. The most popular seems to be removing all frenzy exhaustion after a long rest. What I did was replace their 10th-level ability with no more exhaustion.

Deleted

2017-02-23, 03:59 PM

Honestly, just remove the exhaustion condition and it works out well.

If you think there must be a penalty... Have it where Frenzy sucks up a Hit Die that would have been used for healing during a short rest.

Aett_Thorn

2017-02-23, 04:06 PM

We allow Berserkers to Frenzy for free once each day. Exhaustion only starts on the second use per LR.

Puh Laden

2017-02-23, 04:10 PM

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 04:15 PM

I think lesser restoration removes exhaustion levels, not sure though.

Asmotherion

2017-02-23, 04:20 PM

When I first DM'd I didn't pay any attention to the exhaustion rules, so frenzy was actually pretty cool. So much so that even though I care about using exhaustion now, I would probably make it so that a long rest does remove frenzy-exhaustion entirely, or just ignore that bit like I did before.

As far as RAW goes, I've seen the suggestion of killing and then revivifying the barbarian, though there's no word on whether or not death removes exhaustion or not. It presumably removes poison and such conditions though, so I don't know.

-Hey, you look exausted... let me help you with that... Some suggest a tonic or vitamins, but I got a way better solution: I'll just kill you for a minute, than bring you back from the dead... You'll see, it's so relaxing!

-Why did you kill Bob, you fiend? He was our friend!!!
-But he was exhausted! Someone had to do something to help him!

-What is it doctor? Will I live?
-I'm afraid not...
-Why? What do I have? Cancer?
-Worse, Bob... You're exausted.

Specter

2017-02-23, 04:45 PM

As far as RAW goes, I've seen the suggestion of killing and then revivifying the barbarian, though there's no word on whether or not death removes exhaustion or not. It presumably removes poison and such conditions though, so I don't know.

This is absolutely hilarious, should totally be on Order of the Stick.

Barbarian: Bruuuuh I'm so tired I could die and be raised again!
Cleric: I got you fam.

Ninja'd by Admotherion...

Mongobear

2017-02-23, 04:50 PM

I think my group added -1 level of Exhaustion to Lesser Restoration, since iirc, it doesn't remove any RAW.

We also toyed around with 1/day Exhaustion free Frenzy, removing it entirely, and adding an ability later that removed it after X Barbarian level.

The Lesser Restoration method felt the most useful since it had applications outside of JUST Barbarians, and we also happened to have 3 PCs with access to LR, so we almost never had Exhaustion after that.

joaber

2017-02-23, 05:01 PM

Yeah, if you play with feats and multiclass, frenzy is probably the worst festure of the game.
I think they tried to say: "forget berserk, do to totem".
Same thing with elemental monk

Deleted

2017-02-23, 05:02 PM

I think lesser restoration removes exhaustion levels, not sure though.

Sadly, no, but Greater Restoration reduces the exhaustion level by 1... Which is ridiculous but whatever.

http://www.5esrd.com/spellcasting/all-spells/g/greater-restoration/

jas61292

2017-02-23, 05:07 PM

Yeah, if you play with feats and multiclass, frenzy is probably the worst festure of the game.
I think they tried to say: "forget berserk, do to totem".
Same thing with elemental monk

On the other hand, if you play without feats and multiclassing, Frenzy makes the Berserker far and away the damage king when he wants to be, and is more than worth the exhaustion a few times per day.

Its blatantly obvious that classes were designed without feats or multiclassing in mind, and they didn't do a terribly good job of balancing either. Frenzy is just the most blatant example of this.

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 05:09 PM

TurboGhast

2017-02-23, 05:20 PM

Deleted

2017-02-23, 05:34 PM

Exhaustion is a condition, because the effects of exhaustion are listed in a sidebar of a page conditions, and exhaustion is listed as a condition in the statblock of various monsters that are immune to it. So, if some effect ended every condition, it should undo exhaustion.

My personal buff to frenzy is that entering one requires an extra use of rage, instead of causing exhaustion when you leave it. I've found it to work nicely as extra resource management.

Honestly, the biggest problem with a Barbarian is that they even have resource management.

Like... We turned this hulking ball of death and rage into an accountant.

While funny, it's pretty backwards.

"I can only get angry X times a day so I better ration my rage..."

Mongobear

2017-02-23, 05:41 PM

Honestly, the biggest problem with a Barbarian is that they even have resource management.

Like... We turned this hulking ball of death and rage into an accountant.

While funny, it's pretty backwards.

"I can only get angry X times a day so I better ration my rage..."

This is a pretty good recount of how I feel about it.

I wish Barbarians would be closer to the 3.5 variant Berserker's Strength in the PHB2.

Basically, whenever the Barbarian went under 50% max HP, they went nuts, grew more resistant to damage, dealt more damage with attacks, and ignored defenses better. It was impossible to really "become angry" at will, you could only trigger it via low HP. None of the "Im in a perfectly rational state of mind right now and feel fine... oh look stuff to kill! *RRRRAAAARRRRRGGGHGGHHHH!!!!!!*" like we have had since 3rd edition.

Shaofoo

2017-02-23, 06:54 PM

Also note that you only get to truly feel the penalties of exhaustion till after the 3rd level of exhaustion. You probably won't be crying about having disadvantage on skill checks unless you are a grappler and even then you still have advantage so it just cancels it out.

Frenzy isn't the best but people tend to not give it enough credit because it is easier to hate on something. I would've just made it once a long rest so people wouldn't complain, would be funny how many long rest mechanics would fare if you were to instead give it an exhaustion level per use.

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 06:58 PM

Frenzy isn't the best but people tend to not give it enough credit because it is easier to hate on something. I would've just made it once a long rest so people wouldn't complain, would be funny how many long rest mechanics would fare if you were to instead give it an exhaustion level per use.

Frenzy isn't the best because Bear Totem outstrips everything else by a country mile at level 3. Frenzy just has an awkward mechanic strapped to it as well.

I agree that it should be one long rest per use.

Shaofoo

2017-02-23, 07:02 PM

Frenzy isn't the best because Bear Totem outstrips everything else by a country mile at level 3. Frenzy just has an awkward mechanic strapped to it as well.

I agree that it should be one long rest per use.

Not really, Bear Totem is just memed to death because people think that resistance to all but psychic damage is somehow great when you are supposed to be front and center and you'll probably take the physical kind of damage which Rage covers anyway.

You can't choose how Bear totem works out, you can choose how Frenzy works out. Bear totem can end up being useless for a long while but Frenzy can always be used at will. Again it is just that memes are strong here. The huge pack of orcs will probably not be doing anything but physical damage.

Deleted

2017-02-23, 07:03 PM

This is a pretty good recount of how I feel about it.

I wish Barbarians would be closer to the 3.5 variant Berserker's Strength in the PHB2.

Basically, whenever the Barbarian went under 50% max HP, they went nuts, grew more resistant to damage, dealt more damage with attacks, and ignored defenses better. It was impossible to really "become angry" at will, you could only trigger it via low HP. None of the "Im in a perfectly rational state of mind right now and feel fine... oh look stuff to kill! *RRRRAAAARRRRRGGGHGGHHHH!!!!!!*" like we have had since 3rd edition.

Something like this would be awesome. I really don't like the accountant barbarian stuff going on.

Frenzy isn't the best because Bear Totem outstrips everything else by a country mile at level 3. Frenzy just has an awkward mechanic strapped to it as well.

I agree that it should be one long rest per use.

Cute but no.

Wolf Totem is the best Barbarian path. Bear gives additional damage resistance which most of the time won't come into play. Your primary rage resistance of BPS defend against a majority of damage.

Getting things to be dead faster is the name of the game for Barbarians and nothing does that better than Wolf Totem (of the barbarian options). It isn't dependant on your DM being super nice or you being attacked and it doesn't screw you over. Plus, advantage is awesome.

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 07:06 PM

Not really, Bear Totem is just memed to death because people think that resistance to all but psychic damage is somehow great when you are supposed to be front and center and you'll probably take the physical kind of damage which Rage covers anyway.

Haha, what?

Bear Totem maintains insane durability in the late game, by which time almost monster you face has either spells or magical weapon attacks. Sure, you might face a horde of orcs, but an extra attack from a barbarian isn't going to make much difference when spellcasters will have access to AoE attacks to clear out crowds. Frenzy has some better late-term abilities but Bear's level 3 ability is just so versatile it blows it out of the water.

Shaofoo

2017-02-23, 07:08 PM

Haha, what?

Bear Totem maintains insane durability in the late game, by which time almost monster you face has either spells or magical weapon attacks. Sure, you might face a horde of orcs, but an extra attack from a barbarian isn't going to make much difference when spellcasters will have access to AoE attacks to clear out crowds. Frenzy has some better late-term abilities but Bear's level 3 ability is just so versatile it blows it out of the water.

Late game insane durability... while talking about a level 3 ability.

Sure it can be more useful later but nothing about being a country mile away. Like I said, you just feel to the trap of the meme, be careful around them memes.

Vorpalchicken

2017-02-23, 07:11 PM

One interesting thing about frenzy is that you don't need to take the attack action to use it, unlike most other bonus action attacks. Could have some tricksy build potential.
Do note you can rage without using frenzy. And if there's a couple days off after adventuring day you can probably use frenzy twice. Like put up with the first penalty for part of the day and use frenzy again for the last fight.
Maybe your DM could give you a magic item that would remove one level per day- like an enchanted drinking horn.

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 07:13 PM

Late game insane durability... while talking about a level 3 ability.

Sure it can be more useful later but nothing about being a country mile away. Like I said, you just feel to the trap of the meme, be careful around them memes.

I don't give a crap about memes, I've seen it in action. It starts off OK at level 3 and gets progressively more useful as the game goes on. I'm at level 11 with a cleric and I honestly can't remember the last time I took non-magical physical damage. Perhaps if the DM uses only hordes then yeah, but as I've said the other abilities are not better than Bear for dealing with that because that's the rest of the party's job.

Shaofoo

2017-02-23, 07:22 PM

I don't give a crap about memes, I've seen it in action. It starts off OK at level 3 and gets progressively more useful as the game goes on. I'm at level 11 with a cleric and I honestly can't remember the last time I took non-magical physical damage. Perhaps if the DM uses only hordes then yeah, but as I've said the other abilities are not better than Bear for dealing with that because that's the rest of the party's job.

So you basically only fight mages if you can't even remember the last time you were dealt physical damage? I think that maybe you are playing the exception kind of the game than the norm but it basically makes my point, you play a game where elemental damage is far and away the best and thus the damage mitigation is actually great (while making the normal damage resistance useless) while if I were to play a game that has a lot more non elemental damage dealing then Bear seems useless because normal Rage is enough. While Fenzy's extra attack is always useful in a combat situation.

JellyPooga

2017-02-23, 07:23 PM

Frenzy isn't the best because Bear Totem outstrips everything else by a country mile at level 3.

Urgh. I hate the proliferation of this, because it's simply not true. I don't deny Bear Totem is good, but it's really not that good. Both Wolf and Eagle Totems (not to mention the additional Totems in SCAG) will see regular and significant use, changing the course of battles and your play style in almost every combat (Dash as a bonus action? Cool, I'm suddenly much more maneuverable...like, Rogue fast. Everyone attacking the guy I'm attacking gets Advantage to hit? Cool, I'm suddenly the lynch-pin of the party assault).

Bear Totem, on the other hand, gives you an occasional extra boost to your resilience that by the time you're seeing regular instances of the additional types of damage it grants Resistance to, the party has access to spells that can easily duplicate its effect if you think it's necessary given the massive heap of HP you'll have from that tasty d12 HD and pumped Con score at that point.

Many argue that Champion Fighters and Thief Rogues are the "underpowered" and/or "boring" option, but people should probably be making the same claim of Bear Totem Barbarians instead. Yes, if you don't think about what it actually gives you, it sounds great ("Oh wow! Resistance to all damage! That's so OP!"[/noob]), but non-weapon damage is rare enough to make Bear Totem a situational bonus outside of certain "theme dungeons" (e.g. the "fire temple") and every Barbarian is Resistant to the vast majority of damage they're ever likely to take straight out of the box (i.e. weapon damage).

Tl;dr - Bear Totem isn't the best Totem. It's situational, you can easily duplicate it with spells, doesn't change your play-style at all...and it's boring.

edit: Wow. Super-ninja'd!

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 07:29 PM

Tl;dr - Bear Totem isn't the best Totem. It's situational, you can easily duplicate it with spells, doesn't change your play-style at all...and it's boring.

edit: Wow. Super-ninja'd!

I'm not disagreeing that it's boring. I think so too. I just think it's really competitive. If I was playing a barb I would go Eagle.

Though I'm surprised that other people seem to fight so few demons and such. I guess I was exaggerating when I said I couldn't remember the last time we took non-magic damage (it was against Aurumvoracs) but after a certain point in the monster manual it seems like every creature's weapon attacks are magical.

Shaofoo

2017-02-23, 07:34 PM

I'm not disagreeing that it's boring. I think so too. I just think it's really competitive. If I was playing a barb I would go Eagle.

Though I'm surprised that other people seem to fight so few demons and such. I guess I was exaggerating when I said I couldn't remember the last time we took non-magic damage (it was against Aurumvoracs) but after a certain point in the monster manual it seems like every creature's weapon attacks are magical.

So do demons just not go up to melee and hit you? Cause even if the damage is "magical" you still gain resistance to all slashing, bludgeoning and piercing damage. Even magic swords are still affected by a Barbarian's resistance because it affects all damage. The only demon in the MM that doesn't deal any kind of physical damage is a Shadow Demon.... and he deals psychic damage so your Bear Totem won't help you there.

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-23, 07:49 PM

So do demons just not go up to melee and hit you? Cause even if the damage is "magical" you still gain resistance to all slashing, bludgeoning and piercing damage. Even magic swords are still affected by a Barbarian's resistance because it affects all damage. The only demon in the MM that doesn't deal any kind of physical damage is a Shadow Demon.... and he deals psychic damage so your Bear Totem won't help you there.

You're right! I don't know why I thought it said non-magical S/P/B. In retrospect, that takes Bear Totem down a peg or five.

Malifice

2017-02-23, 07:57 PM

OP; you can enter rage and not also frenzy. Entering frenzy is optional for a berserker barbarian.

So during a five encounter adventuring day, your Barbarian 5 could rage for 2 encounters of the day, fight 2 encounters without rage active and could use his frenzy nova for the final encounter vs the BBEG no worries.

He could also use it for two of his three daily rages with few problems (or even for all of them if it's a 'one adventuring day' adventure and he can safely guarantee hell be back in town for a few weeks after the adventure ends). He just needs to be selective about when to use it, or when to enter normal rage, or indeed when to rage at all.

The 5th level spell greater restoration removes fatigue levels. I'm pretty sure that clerics, bards and druids all get access to it at 9th level, meaning from ninth level on-wards you should have access to means of removing the exhaustion in any event.

Honestly the ability is fine as written.

RumoCrytuf

2017-02-24, 12:06 AM

Like... We turned this hulking ball of death and rage into an accountant.

Okay... okay okay okay... SO

One of my players literally is a Barbarian Accountant.... I kid you not.

djreynolds

2017-02-24, 02:24 AM

Mindless rage is not to be underestimated, very powerful... it is an auto pass.

The tough thing is if you fight TWF, it is worthless. And it inhibits the perks of GWM and most players going S&B will be using shieldmaster. And like TWF, PAM is now useless

Its too bad, but since many barbarians are possibly concentrating on pumping strength and con, you are better off going featless.

What I have done is if you are fighting with GWM... I just allow you too get a free attack then if crit or kill... like a special horde breaker...

Hrugner

2017-02-24, 03:17 AM

Cute but no.

Wolf Totem is the best Barbarian path. Bear gives additional damage resistance which most of the time won't come into play. Your primary rage resistance of BPS defend against a majority of damage.

Getting things to be dead faster is the name of the game for Barbarians and nothing does that better than Wolf Totem (of the barbarian options). It isn't dependant on your DM being super nice or you being attacked and it doesn't screw you over. Plus, advantage is awesome.

Wolf gives advantage for players other than the barbarian, and only in melee. In the right group it could be amazing, in the wrong one it could be pointless.

djreynolds

2017-02-24, 03:35 AM

I have to admit, I do like the whole flavor of the wolf totem... the whole package is cool.

And I know we have all heard this before, but in a featless game, frenzying isn't terrible.

Cespenar

2017-02-24, 05:51 AM

In a long winded game that I've been playing there is a Frenzy Barbarian. He often saves the Frenzy for boss fights, when we're more or less sure that we won't get into any more fights today. He doesn't have PAM, so this is the only way he's getting from 2 attacks to 3.

It's been fairly useful to him. He demolishes encounters when in frenzy, and Mindless Rage is pretty good as well.

Besides, levels 1-2 of exhaustion are manageable if you know what you're getting into.

Deleted

2017-02-24, 06:37 AM

Okay... okay okay okay... SO

One of my players literally is a Barbarian Accountant.... I kid you not.

Which is a fine character idea, but as a class? Meh.

Wolf gives advantage for players other than the barbarian, and only in melee. In the right group it could be amazing, in the wrong one it could be pointless.

Which is still miles ahead of bear that relies on the DM to throw out different damage types, the barbarian not to kill that creature before it attacks, and for the barbarian to get hurt... All for their feature to work.

Everyone in 5e has easy access to good or great melee attacks.

The juicy attack cantrips including, shocking grasp, that are melee attacks plus the cleric has the ever popular Inflict Wounds and Spiritual Weapon which are melee attacks.

Of course party composition is needed, but that's true for almost every option you pico up! That defense is like saying... Well you have to roll well to hit, so attack rolls aren't worth using.

Wolf may rely on party composition (which duh, it's a wolf totem) but Bear is even worse... It relies on the DM to throw out different damage types, the barbarian not to kill that creature before it attacks, and for the barbarian to get hurt.

Grondar

2017-02-24, 08:17 AM

The whole point of Bear Totem is to make your Barb a tanking DPR machine. He tanks with hit points rather than AC.

Normal Rage is cool and all (BTW even dragon melee attacks are non-magical) and would cover you for most monster physical attacks but the huge range of Resistances that are acquired with Bear make it amazing, especially when you start running into monsters at higher levels that have their wonky special attacks.

Not saying that Wolf isn't cool and flavorful, but it is predicated on having other melee or ranged attackers in the party, which may not be the case. So Bear will let you fulfill your role as DPR and give you the survivability to go the full fight.

My original premise was that for Frenzy as a keystone ability you can't use it with regularity and be viable in an extended dungeon grind. Unlike Fighters Action Surge, the nova effect of Frenzy must be used judiciously or your Barb is lay down for nappy time due to exhaustion.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 08:21 AM

Not really, Bear Totem is just memed to death because people think that resistance to all but psychic damage is somehow great when you are supposed to be front and center and you'll probably take the physical kind of damage which Rage covers anyway.
The huge pack of orcs will probably not be doing anything but physical damage.

Cute but no.

Wolf Totem is the best Barbarian path. Bear gives additional damage resistance which most of the time won't come into play. Your primary rage resistance of BPS defend against a majority of damage.

Nice try, but no: any DM worth their salt will be throwing a diverse range of damage types at you, especially if you have a barbarian.

Also wolf is only useful if you have multiple melee characters and fight the sort of enemies who are strong enough to withstand being doubleteamed and are willing to allow it to happen.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 08:22 AM

JellyPooga

2017-02-24, 08:51 AM

Nice try, but no: any DM worth their salt will be throwing a diverse range of damage types at you, especially if you have a barbarian.

True, but it still remains that the majority of damage you'll take is weapon damage and the non-weapon damage you do take can often be predicted and resisted by other means appropriate to the circumstance (e.g "Hmm, we're off to fight a Red Dragon...what flavour of Potion of Resistance should I pack, I wonder?").

Also wolf is only useful if you have multiple melee characters and fight the sort of enemies who are strong enough to withstand being doubleteamed and are willing to allow it to happen.

Umm...have you looked at the HP totals of practically any creature you care to mention of CR:2 or higher? Yeah, most things are sticking around for more than one round. Besides, all you need to do is stand next to someone to give your ally advantage, so wading deep into a pile of mooks, killing a couple and moving next to another couple still gives your pals advantage.

Shaofoo

2017-02-24, 10:38 AM

Nice try, but no: any DM worth their salt will be throwing a diverse range of damage types at you, especially if you have a barbarian.

Also wolf is only useful if you have multiple melee characters and fight the sort of enemies who are strong enough to withstand being doubleteamed and are willing to allow it to happen.

Says who? Please point out where somehow we must implement all the colors of the rainbow in the later levels?

You are saying that if the players are in the Elemental Plane of Fire that somehow I must add cold and poison damage.

Also glad to hear that you plan to hard counter character classes, nice DMing there being all adversarial.

Deleted

2017-02-24, 11:13 AM

Says who? Please point out where somehow we must implement all the colors of the rainbow in the later levels?

You are saying that if the players are in the Elemental Plane of Fire that somehow I must add cold and poison damage.

Also glad to hear that you plan to hard counter character classes, nice DMing there being all adversarial.

My favorites is when DMs like him forget what their charactwrs have and their hard counters cause TPK or a "deadly" encounter to become a breeze.

Had a DM that was using some homebrew monster that relied on darkness to do stuff... Something about if a creature attacks it with disadvantage then the monster gets XYZ (found out via in game fluff).

I raged and reckless attacked so I and the monk and fighter didn't have disadvantage. Absolutely destroyed it.

The DM was kind of a jerk to begin with so his face was priceless.

N810

2017-02-24, 12:10 PM

I play a Frenzy Barb, and Frenzy is fine,
just don't use it multiple times every day.
also worth noting when you are attacking
3 times a round with reckless attack...
you are probably going to roll a cri or two.
personally I roll a lot of extra d12 on a crit.

1 level of exhaustion is mostly negated by the perks you get from rage,
2 levels is manageable
3 levels yea, it had better be an emergency.

Ps. it also helps that my DM house ruled that all levels of exhaustion reset on a long rest.

pps. I didn't take PAM or GWM or WWF, because they interfere with frenzy, instead I took Sentinel for a possible free extra attack.
also it combos nicely with retaliation, Oh you hit me, ok I hit you back... no you hit the guy next to me instead, then I still hit you.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 12:36 PM

.
Which is still miles ahead of bear that relies on the DM to throw out different damage types,
As DMs typically do.

the barbarian not to kill that creature before it attacks, and for the barbarian to get hurt...

Only really an issue at really low levels where most stuff can die in one hit.

All for their feature to work.

You make it sound as if these are things that aren't part of 80+% of encounters. Now sure, maybe you're in a campaign where that is the case, but that's not the default assumption, and it's fairly obvious that the bear totem isn't right for that sort of campaign.

Deleted

2017-02-24, 12:56 PM

As DMs typically do.

Only really an issue at really low levels where most stuff can die in one hit.

You make it sound as if these are things that aren't part of 80+% of encounters. Now sure, maybe you're in a campaign where that is the case, but that's not the default assumption, and it's fairly obvious that the bear totem isn't right for that sort of campaign.

And again, thr majority of damage types you will encounter are BPS.

Which rage gives you resistance to.

Wolf doesn't require nearly as much DM input. Plop down a creature and bam.

You make it sound like BPS isn't the overwhelmingly main damage type you will encounter.

But hey, if you like class features that rely heavily on DM input... Ok? But it still doesn't help the barbarian do what the barbarians does. Kill things faster. A barbarian giving allies advantage makes things dead faster, bear doesn't do that.

Bear doesn't even make a good tank. Yeah you can soak up damage but your output doesn't make creatures focus on you.

Always take out the lower HP creatures first and then focus fire on the big meat. Other close combatants will be doing scary levels of damage too, but they are easier to kill.

The Wolf makes for a better tank because your base abilities cover a majority of what you will run I to and you have a crap ton of HP anyways. But you have a feature that will make enemies focus on you instead of the more squishy allies.

So wolf makes you a better tank, as creatures will walk to focus on you.

Wolf is a leader who can tank. Bear is a tank that can't force crratures to attack it.

Wolf by a landslide.

Side Note: Healing in 5e is a breeze and you don't even need a dedicated healer.

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-24, 12:57 PM

Deleted

2017-02-24, 01:02 PM

I mean, my DMs have been quite good, and we have to deal with magic damage all the time. I mean, they've just gotten Volos, so it's possible they're working off of that, but fire damage, necrotic damage, force damage; we seem to take all kinds.

I'm really struggling to imagine a campaign where there's less than 30% damage types other than S/P/B.

EDIT: And healing is not a breeze, at least not in-combat healing. I mean, you could use a "heal them once they're down" strategy, but even then it's not enough to keep up with damage.

Healing is definitely a breeze in 5e. Unless you are playing level 1 or 2 forever, the chance of death in a battle is ridiculously low.

Because of how fast playwrs can kill things.

And because spending hit dice during a short rest.

And because there are tons of healing (or temp HP) options.

And did I mention players kill things fast? Wolf > Bear on that one.

And did I mention players kill things fast? I just want to make sure.

(Side note: this assumes you are using the game as intended and also that the DM doesn't have the "I'm not a DM, I'm the player's enemy" ideology that some seem to have)

Spellbreaker26

2017-02-24, 01:08 PM

Grondar

2017-02-24, 01:37 PM

Healing may be another thread altogether but I have found that healing strategy is 5ed is vastly different than previous editions. It is my supposition that healing just needs to keep me just above 0 hp. Not like P.5 where healers needed to top off the fighters because they could be beyond neg Con is a single salvo. Since you are only making death saves at 0 hp, there is not the imperative to keep hp near max.

Even if you die in a round a single hp gets you back in the fight and as someone pointed out earlier, minus any conditions you had when you laid down for a dirt nap. :smallsmile: Plus getting up doesn't provoke, so hovering above 0 is nowhere near as bad as previous editions.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 01:41 PM

Says who? Please point out where somehow we must implement all the colors of the rainbow in the later levels?
You don't have to. You can totally have a campaign where all the enemies and traps deal physical damage, but doing so would
1) limit the kinds of challenges you can throw at players
2) encourage certain types of characters that excel against physical damage
and
3) be seriously adversarial to characters that are either weak against physical damage, or that specialize in blocking elemental damage

Now, obviously those are all undesirable things.

You are saying that if the players are in the Elemental Plane of Fire that somehow I must add cold and poison damage.

No, that's a straw man argument there (you seem to like making strawman arguments).

But I'll address it anyway
-Elemental plane of fire
So you've got fire covered, which is a type of elemental damage,. There should still be physical damage as well

-Poison damage
It's the plane of fire, so it's to be expected that the air would be full of sulfur fumes, ash, and various toxic gases produced by burning stuff. So yes, there should be absolutely be poison damage there.

-Cold damage
If the premise of the arc or campaign is that the plane of fire is being invaded by ice wizards or water elementals or something like that, then yes, otherwise no.

Also glad to hear that you plan to hard counter character classes,
Nice strawman there.

nice DMing there being all adversarial.
Again, nice try with the straw man.
But as usual I'm the one advocating against adversarial DMs and in favor of following (at least) basic game design principles.

Giving every character a chance to shine is neither adversarial nor hard countering a class.

Deleted

2017-02-24, 01:43 PM

What levels have you been playing at, Deleted? I ask because we're at level 11 and in-combat healing has not been efficient for a long time. I've been the sole healer for a while, and though I often ask to use Prayer of Healing there isn't always time for it. It's often less risky to just go all out during combat and only heal when an ally goes down.

And yes, combats are resolved fairly quickly - at first. Enemies really start to pick up in terms of hitpoints, and we really haven't been having killer DMs either. Eventually some boss fights have turned into slugging matches with everyone having barely any HP and spell slots left.

Levels 3 - 12 (primarily, but we go out of this zone from time to time or if I'm playing under a different DM), healing is a breeze even with harsher DM styles.

Unless your DM is specifically targeting your group in such a way it goes way outside the realms of what the game expects, healing is not even a second thought.

But my groups and I don't run around hoping to get hit (bear barbarian) so our class features work. So maybe we are the weird ones.

The point of survival is not takimg damage, in order for the Bear's feature to even work you have to take damage.

Counter fricken productive.

Which is the biggest flaw of Frenzy. In order to use it, you have to take a or sort that hurts your ability to do your job. In a way no other class gets penalized.

JellyPooga

2017-02-24, 01:44 PM

I'm really struggling to imagine a campaign where there's less than 30% damage types other than S/P/B.

Let's run with that number for the sake of argument (I think it's generous, but perhaps that's just the type of campaigns I've played).

- 30% of all damage thrown at the party is non-B/P/S
- The source of this non-B/P/S damage is, in large part, going to be AoE's and Ranged effects (most melee attacks are straight B/P/S)
- The Barbarian is going to be up in someones grill in most combats.
- Being in melee means you're not likely to be targeted by a majority of that 30%; most of that 30% is being aimed at the back-line and skirmishers who are harder to pin down in melee (where the Barbarian wants to be), because being in melee means AoEs will also target allies, the guy the Barbarian is in melee with is providing cover, or the back-line is simply not being engaged and the enemy wants it to be (to break concentration, target the "squishies", etc.).
- So of that 30%, the Barbarian is taking what? 10%? 20% Even being generous with 50% you're looking at the Barbarian only having some 15% of all damage aimed at him being non-B/P/S.

Now let's look at the effect; half damage.
- For every 100HP of damage our Barbarian takes, using these ball-park figures, about 15 of them will be non-B/P/S
- A Bear Totem turns that damage into 7(ish) points, while a non-Barbarian takes the full 15.

So using some (very) rough figures, a Bear Barbarian takes (roughly) 8 less damage per 100 than his counterpart. Not that impressive in my book. It's a solid bonus, don't get me wrong, but it's nothing that will break the bank and it's certainly nothing much to shout about. Even if we assume that 30% of all damage the Barbarian is taking is non-B/P/S (which is a ludicrous overestimate IMO), the Bear Totem Barbarian is only taking 15pts of damage less per hundred compared to his Wolf or Eagle counterpart...still nothing to get that excited over.

Bear Totem is great when it counts; but it simply doesn't count all that often. It's very situational, which puts a hard limit on how good it can really be considered to be.

Hawkstar

2017-02-24, 01:48 PM

The fun thing about Totem Barbarians is that they're not restricted to a single path. You can grab Eagle at 3 for the added mobility, Bear at 6 for the advantage on strength checks and improved carry capacity (Great for kicking down the door out of the Dragon's lair while carrying the damsel in distress, then leaping to safety), and the Wolf capstone to slam enemies around the battlefield.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 01:52 PM

My favorites is when DMs like him forget what their charactwrs have and their hard counters cause TPK or a "deadly" encounter to become a breeze.
Why would anyone design such an encounter? Sounds like a bad DM.

Had a DM that was using some homebrew monster that relied on darkness to do stuff... Something about if a creature attacks it with disadvantage then the monster gets XYZ (found out via in game fluff).
Sounds like a badly designed monster.

I raged and reckless attacked so I and the monk and fighter didn't have disadvantage. Absolutely destroyed it.
Or you could've just stood in the darkness. Also, that is a LOT of melee for one party.

The DM was kind of a jerk to begin with so his face was priceless.
Good, sounds like a bad DM.

Hairfish

2017-02-24, 02:37 PM

Berserker is a specialized path most suitable for barbarians in larger parties. Specifically, it's for tanking/DPSing bosses that do primarily physical damage and/or use mind control or fear effects (Zuggtmoy from OotA, for example).

Frenzy is the only bonus action attack in the PHB that doesn't require you do something with your main action in order to use it. As such, you can Dodge and still attack. Or you get 2 attacks (with a two-handed weapon) at 3rd level, up to 3 at 5th level.

e: Just realized I named the wrong campaign for Zuggtmoy.

Deleted

2017-02-24, 02:50 PM

Why would anyone design such an encounter? Sounds like a bad DM.

Sounds like a badly designed monster.

Or you could've just stood in the darkness. Also, that is a LOT of melee for one party.

Good, sounds like a bad DM.

As I said, because the DM forgot what the players had.

Actually, a very interesting monster, broken in some cases but with a bit of tweaking it could be an interesting encounter. It just need a decent DM to run it and it would be awesome.

There was only three members of the party making it on a regular basis (guess why), the other two were ranged. I was mostly still going because my friend was friends with this guy and he couldn't keep a group together.

But even with one other melee type (or a caster that has melee spells) the Wolf Totem is miles beyond anything the Bear totem is. Even the level 6 and 14 features are really bad for bear. Weagle is probably the best way to go (Wolf - Eagle - Eagle or Wolf - Eagle - Wolf). In D&D offense outweighs defense, killing the dragon faster means less attacks for the barbarian to take.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 03:10 PM

And again, thr majority of damage types you will encounter are BPS.

No, they're not, we've been over this already. Maybe it's true in your campaign, but that just begs the question : what are the enemy casters doing?

Wolf doesn't require nearly as much DM input. Plop down a creature and bam.

It does, however, require a party that's willing to be heavily melee and is willing to clump together, despite that usually being a bad idea.

You make it sound like BPS isn't the overwhelmingly main damage type you will encounter.
because it's not. I usually encounter casters that actually cast damage spells.

But hey, if you like class features that rely heavily on DM input... Ok? But it still doesn't help the barbarian do what the barbarians does. Kill things faster. A barbarian giving allies advantage makes things dead faster, bear doesn't do that.

Bear also doesn't massively endanger his allies.

Bear doesn't even make a good tank. Yeah you can soak up damage but your output doesn't make creatures focus on you.

Exactly. There is no "tank" in DnD, and if you get focused, especially when you have massive vulnerabilities, then you'll quickly die or get charmed, feared, paralyzed, or hit with some other nasty effect.

So wolf makes you a better tank, as creatures will walk to focus on you.

I assume you mean "want to focus on you" because of course they won't walk towards you, that's where the danger is.

N810

2017-02-24, 03:38 PM

No, they're not, we've been over this already. Maybe it's true in your campaign, but that just begs the question : what are the enemy casters doing?

It does, however, require a party that's willing to be heavily melee and is willing to clump together, despite that usually being a bad idea.

because it's not. I usually encounter casters that actually cast damage spells.

Bear also doesn't massively endanger his allies.

Exactly. There is no "tank" in DnD, and if you get focused, especially when you have massive vulnerabilities, then you'll quickly die or get charmed, feared, paralyzed, or hit with some other nasty effect.

I assume you mean "want to focus on you" because of course they won't walk towards you, that's where the danger is.

But bear is susceptible to charm and fear while berserker is not ???

"what are the enemy casters doing?" Getting hit by the barbarian of course.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 03:40 PM

But even with one other melee type (or a caster that has melee spells) the Wolf Totem is miles beyond anything the Bear totem is.

Only in very specific situations, and even then you endanger your allies by doing so.

Even the level 6 and 14 features are really bad for bear.
...Wat. If you can't find good uses for a 600 pound carry weight and advantage on strength checks then you aren't really trying.

For lvl 14, yeah eagle's probably the best, but wolf is by far the worst.

In D&D offense outweighs defense, killing the dragon faster means less attacks for the barbarian to take.
Depends on the edition, but in 5e it's pretty even.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 03:44 PM

But bear is susceptible to charm and fear while berserker is not ???
Of course, but the wolf is a bigger target.

"what are the enemy casters doing?" Getting hit by the barbarian of course.

What about before that?

N810

2017-02-24, 03:51 PM

Of course, but the wolf is a bigger target.

What about before that?

probably dropping an AOE on the whole party,
or rolling initiative.

Deleted

2017-02-24, 04:43 PM

Bear also doesn't massively endanger his allies.

I meant 3 and 14 not 6 and 14, guess context is dead but whatever.

But ok, out of all the silly things you are typing this is the one that made me laugh the loudest so I'm just going to focus on this one.

Getting things dead faster = endangering allies? Putting a target on yourself, something the bear doesn't do, endagers their allies?

You have got to be kidding me!

Bear puts a target on your ally's back. Bear does absolutely nothing to push a target into attacking you. Enemies will take down the easier targets (creatures with less HP) before focus fireing on the harder to kill creature.

Like killing the kobolds before taking out the dragon.

The bear actively pushes targets to target your allies.

Your melee allies were already going to be in melee but Wolf reduces the time they stay in melee. The only other one that does this is frenzy but you get worse at it as the day goes on.

Bear looks all nice and pretty but it is the bottom of the pack.

Hrugner

2017-02-24, 08:10 PM

But my groups and I don't run around hoping to get hit (bear barbarian) so our class features work. So maybe we are the weird ones.

Funny, it's this same philosophy that makes wolf so terrible at my table. We rarely have more than one melee character in a party due to the poor strategy of the whole party standing in melee range. Adding in an incentive to clump up for AoE attacks makes melee an even worse prospect.

Addaran

2017-02-24, 08:36 PM

Getting things dead faster = endangering allies? Putting a target on yourself, something the bear doesn't do, endagers their allies?

They probably meant endangering allies because you have to be 5fts away from the barbarian. Wich means even the smallest aoe will get everyone and you can't be on "flanking position" to make it more likely that the aoe would hit the enemy's ally.

Personally, i like all the totems and would have a hard time choosing. If i can have fire or poison resistance from race, it's push the choice toward not-bear.

Deleted

2017-02-25, 10:22 AM

Funny, it's this same philosophy that makes wolf so terrible at my table. We rarely have more than one melee character in a party due to the poor strategy of the whole party standing in melee range. Adding in an incentive to clump up for AoE attacks makes melee an even worse prospect.

That still doesn't change that the base Wolf is better than the Bear.

For your group, sure pick a different option, but the bear doesn't tank in your group anymore than any other class.

Options aren't always optimal. But that doesn't change that at its base, one option is better than another option. In your situation it can change, but in an overwhelmingly majority of yhe time Wolf and Eagle outperform Bear in areas.

You can make a wizard useless, but that doesnt mean the wizard at its core has less options than the fighter. Your individual group changes things to cause Wolf to not be as effective in your group not in the game.

They probably meant endangering allies because you have to be 5fts away from the barbarian. Wich means even the smallest aoe will get everyone and you can't be on "flanking position" to make it more likely that the aoe would hit the enemy's ally.

Personally, i like all the totems and would have a hard time choosing. If i can have fire or poison resistance from race, it's push the choice toward not-bear.

5' (next to barb), 10' (5' from enemy), or 15' (reach weapon 10' from enemy).

The enemy (target) has to 5' from the barbarian and any melee attacks get advantage.

You could have your owl deliver spells, the fighter can Polearm (though, they are gonna be in melee anyways if they are the type), and the rogue can kite.

This is no different from any other time you have melee types. You could use it on a horde or you could use it on the boss.

Bear paints more of a target on your allies back that any other totem.

I don't hate bear, I hate class features that rely too much on the DM for them to activate. For the other totems a DM just needs to plop down any monster a barbarian would be expected to fight and you get your class features. The bear specifically needs to be targeted by different damage types to have their features come into play... A DM has to go out of their way an additional step for the bear to effective.

Plus the DM has to target the bear, if the choice is between the bearbarian and three players grouped together... The AoE is still going toward the other members as enemies will want to hit as many PCs as possible with the AoE.

Vogonjeltz

2017-02-25, 10:23 AM

I am still trying to understand the game design philosophy of Frenzy in Path of the Berserker.

My group consensus is that you are not meant to use it every encounter. But why make it a keystone ability if you are not meant to use it often?

Has this been errata-ed? Crunching the numbers, a Berserker Barb will be seriously hindered in his main role after three encounters and dead after a few days of dungeons crawling due to exhaustion (give or take depending on level and long rests).

The thing that blows my mind is that the higher level Barbarian you are the faster you will die from exhaustion (more rages per long rest).

Is there anything other than Long Rest and Greater Restoration that mitigate exhaustion?

It's available for more than one encounter per day (if necessary), but yes, it's typically a once per day event other than extreme circumstances. I'd advise saving it for the second rage of the day, or whatever the last anticipated fight is.

Bear in mind that you aren't required to rage AND frenzy at the same time, think of it as just an enhanced Rage. Even using just one per day, you'll breeze past the damage dealing capacity of a Totem Warrior, for example.

No errata, just be judicious in using it.

Alternatives:
Potion of Vitality (very rare) (expensive, but able to be used anywhere)
Necklace of Prayer beads; Bead of Favor (rare) (requires friendly Paladin or Cleric)
Major Artifact Property (cast a specific 5th level spell from the artifact) (You can pretty much rule this out entirely)
Charm of Restoration (special DM reward, limited use)
Charm of Vitality (special DM reward, single use)
Boon of Spell Recall (requires ally)
Death Ward (only protects against a 6th application of Exhaustion).
Wish

It's intentionally difficult to remove exhaustion any faster than one level per 24 hours from a long rest. So bear that in mind when considering acquisition of some of these methods (or as a DM giving any of these options out).

Mindless rage is not to be underestimated, very powerful... it is an auto pass.

The tough thing is if you fight TWF, it is worthless. And it inhibits the perks of GWM and most players going S&B will be using shieldmaster. And like TWF, PAM is now useless

Its too bad, but since many barbarians are possibly concentrating on pumping strength and con, you are better off going featless.

What I have done is if you are fighting with GWM... I just allow you too get a free attack then if crit or kill... like a special horde breaker...

Wouldn't fight TWF with a Berserker, pretty much ever, Frenzy is designed to give you a bonus attack with a two-handed weapon like a Greataxe earlier than any other class.

Addaran

2017-02-25, 12:25 PM

5' (next to barb), 10' (5' from enemy), or 15' (reach weapon 10' from enemy).

The enemy (target) has to 5' from the barbarian and any melee attacks get advantage.

You could have your owl deliver spells, the fighter can Polearm (though, they are gonna be in melee anyways if they are the type), and the rogue can kite.

This is no different from any other time you have melee types. You could use it on a horde or you could use it on the boss.

Plus the DM has to target the bear, if the choice is between the bearbarian and three players grouped together... The AoE is still going toward the other members as enemies will want to hit as many PCs as possible with the AoE.

The thing is, normaly the party doesn't have to be grouped together. Ranged can stay separated and kite the enemies. Meleers can all take care of different minions, being further from each others. Even if they all focus on the BBEG, they could be in flanking position.

A = barbarian
B = fighter
C = BBEG

X B X
X C X
X A X
Minions of the BBEG can't target both the barbarian and the fighter without hitting the BBEG. If they are on the same side of the BBEG, ( next to each others or fighter behind the barbarian with a polearm), it's easy to hit only the PCs.

I'm not saying it's deal-breaking but wolf totem do comes with positioning requirement that can be a weakness in some cases. You can't pretend it's not there. Bear and Eagle can just position however they want.

Hrugner

2017-02-25, 01:54 PM

That still doesn't change that the base Wolf is better than the Bear.

For your group, sure pick a different option, but the bear doesn't tank in your group anymore than any other class.

Options aren't always optimal. But that doesn't change that at its base, one option is better than another option. In your situation it can change, but in an overwhelmingly majority of yhe time Wolf and Eagle outperform Bear in areas.

You can make a wizard useless, but that doesnt mean the wizard at its core has less options than the fighter. Your individual group changes things to cause Wolf to not be as effective in your group not in the game.

If I was attempting to create a non-standard player group just to make wolf look bad, I'd simply say that flanking rules were being used at the table. I get that your default group composition assumptions are different from my own, but I don't think selecting my standard or your standard is an effective way to determine what the core performance of a class is. Not objectively anyway. Are groups with more than one melee character the overwhelming majority?

Don't get me wrong, I like wolf and think it's great if you play with tactically minded players and have at least one other melee who can afford to be in the thick of it, I just doubt that situation is going to come up all that often. That said, eagle or elk will tend to rely the least on external factors but both are less potent than the two that do. That's probably how it should be.

JellyPooga

2017-02-25, 02:12 PM

If I was attempting to create a non-standard player group just to make wolf look bad, I'd simply say that flanking rules were being used at the table. I get that your default group composition assumptions are different from my own, but I don't think selecting my standard or your standard is an effective way to determine what the core performance of a class is. Not objectively anyway. Are groups with more than one melee character the overwhelming majority?

Don't get me wrong, I like wolf and think it's great if you play with tactically minded players and have at least one other melee who can afford to be in the thick of it, I just doubt that situation is going to come up all that often. That said, eagle or elk will tend to rely the least on external factors but both are less potent than the two that do. That's probably how it should be.

It's a pretty safe assumption that there will be more than one melee character in a given party. Outside of oddities like the "all spellslinger" or "stealth" party, it's pretty likely that you'll see multiple melee characters, at least in practice if not in design because one melee guy simply cannot hold back multiple foes.

Consider the stereotypical party of the Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard; both the Fighter and Cleric are likely to be melee oriented, if not the Rogue as well. Though Classes change, the roles tend to stay largely the same.

Deleted

2017-02-25, 02:22 PM

It's a pretty safe assumption that there will be more than one melee character in a given party. Outside of oddities like the "all spellslinger" or "stealth" party, it's pretty likely that you'll see multiple melee characters, at least in practice if not in design because one melee guy simply cannot hold back multiple foes.

Consider the stereotypical party of the Fighter, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard; both the Fighter and Cleric are likely to be melee oriented, if not the Rogue as well. Though Classes change, the roles tend to stay largely the same.

Well, the Rogue can go both ways. A Rogue made for range can easily get into (and out of!) melee just fine.

However, you don't even need another weapon user to make Wolf work.

Find Familiar for the wizard, Spiritual Weapon for the Cleric, either for the Bard as they get magical secrets, and Shocking Grasp for the Dragon Sorcerer (Lightning).

Wolf's feature is very very very party friendly. It just takes a melee attack, not a melee weapon attack so magic users can do so at range if they have the right spell or just allow something else to do it for them.

You don't need to be 5' away from the Barbarian to get this feature, you just need to attack a creature within 5' of the barbarian. Which means there is plenty of space to not be adjacent to the barbarian. If an AOE is being dropped, the target is getting hit if both PCs are being hit. So even if you are grouped together, enemies are being hit too.

Just use a bit of common sense when determining placement.

Though, I said this in another thread, I think to fix the Bear level 3 feature you just need to being the level 14 feature to level 3. The bear's 14th level feature is very weak for the level you get it, but would fit in perfectly at level 3.

Honestly though, Bear and Wolf get underpowered abilities for late level. At least you can pick up Eagle!

Grixis

2017-02-25, 06:37 PM

This has a few legit ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444802-Making-Frenzy-Worth-It-Using-RAW

LordVonDerp

2017-02-25, 08:06 PM

I meant 3 and 14 not 6 and 14, guess context is dead but whatever.
Then you should have said what you meant.

But ok, out of all the silly things you are typing

Sure, you keep telling yourself that :amused:

Getting things dead faster = endangering allies? Putting a target on yourself, something the bear doesn't do, endagers their allies?
The target is only on you if you if your allies are close enough to get the benefit. But if they're that close then enemies don't have to choose a single target, they can just hit all of you at once with a nice AoE.

And if that's not enough then I've got two words for you: Dominate Person.

Bear puts a target on your ally's back. and let you use savage attack without worrying about inflict wounds, scorching ray, or disintegrate, depending on level.

Bear does absolutely nothing to push a target into attacking you. Exactly. 4 targets have more defense than one.

Enemies will take down the easier targets (creatures with less HP) before focus fireing on the harder to kill creature.
only the highly tactical ones. Most won't care.

Like killing the kobolds before taking out the dragon.
Do these kobolds have the same number of hit dice as the dragon? Otherwise the comparison doesn't fit.

The bear actively pushes targets to target your allies.
Yes, and enemies spreading their attacks against four PCs will take longer to kill anyone then if they all attack the same target.

Your melee allies were already going to be in melee but Wolf reduces the time they stay in melee. The only other one that does this is frenzy but you get worse at it as the day goes on. except that it doesn't reduce it enough to counteract the extra damage they'll take from clumping together. And when the enemies spread out it'll just end up.taking longer.

Bear looks all nice and pretty but it is the bottom of the pack.only in your white room analysis.

Deleted

2017-02-25, 08:19 PM

This has a few legit ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444802-Making-Frenzy-Worth-It-Using-RAW

Exhaustion is never going to be worth it (as exhaustion works now).

I understand where people are coming from but Exhaustion is just a bad mechanic for a martial character.

The only way I would see it ever being worth it is if you stop gaining levels of exhaustion after a certain points.

Perhaps give the Barbarian a base class feature that reduces their highest exhaustion level possible. Something like...

Die Hard
At level 4, a Barbarian can only gain 5 levels of exhaustion.

At Level 8, the Barbarian can only gain 4 levels of exhaustion.

At Level 12, the Barbarian can only gain 3 levels of exhaustion.

At level 16, the Barbarian can only gain 2 level of exhaustion.

At level 20, the Barbarian can only gain 1 level of exhaustion.

mgshamster

2017-02-25, 09:33 PM

Exhaustion is never going to be worth it (as exhaustion works now).

I understand where people are coming from but Exhaustion is just a bad mechanic for a martial character.

The only way I would see it ever being worth it is if you stop gaining levels of exhaustion after a certain points.

Perhaps give the Barbarian a base class feature that reduces their highest exhaustion level possible. Something like...

Die Hard
At level 4, a Barbarian can only gain 5 levels of exhaustion.

At Level 8, the Barbarian can only gain 4 levels of exhaustion.

At Level 12, the Barbarian can only gain 3 levels of exhaustion.

At level 16, the Barbarian can only gain 2 level of exhaustion.

At level 20, the Barbarian can only gain 1 level of exhaustion.

I'm playing a frenzy barbarian now, and I think it's worth it. But that's a damn good suggestion.

Vogonjeltz

2017-02-25, 09:38 PM

I'm playing a frenzy barbarian now, and I think it's worth it. But that's a damn good suggestion.

That's the thing, mathematically it's absolutely better, and that's all that matters for balance.

Deleted

2017-02-26, 12:36 AM

I'm playing a frenzy barbarian now, and I think it's worth it. But that's a damn good suggestion.

Thanks,

The problem is two folds. Your ability works like no other as in it makes you weaker (or kills you) while giving you a boost. No other class gains a straight damage boost in exchange for killing you... Sorcerer doesn't (quicken/twin).

We say that people wanting to play casters should have at-will casting so the caster PC can be a caster at all times but rage and especially frenzy should be limited because... Just because.

Zalabim

2017-02-26, 03:44 AM

Thanks,

The problem is two folds. Your ability works like no other as in it makes you weaker (or kills you) while giving you a boost. No other class gains a straight damage boost in exchange for killing you... Sorcerer doesn't (quicken/twin).
Overchannel.

And my comparison here might be considered a bit of a stretch, but barbarians get boosts to several different abilities that each get taken away as they get more levels of exhaustion. This is similar to how a spellcaster with many different spell slots has a wide variety of things they can use them for that shrinks as they run out of spell slots. It isn't balanced the same, but it's the same theme.

We say that people wanting to play casters should have at-will casting so the caster PC can be a caster at all times but rage and especially frenzy should be limited because... Just because.
Barbarians can attack just fine even when they don't have rage or frenzy.

djreynolds

2017-02-26, 04:21 AM

Deleted

2017-02-26, 08:35 AM

Overchannel.

And my comparison here might be considered a bit of a stretch, but barbarians get boosts to several different abilities that each get taken away as they get more levels of exhaustion. This is similar to how a spellcaster with many different spell slots has a wide variety of things they can use them for that shrinks as they run out of spell slots. It isn't balanced the same, but it's the same theme.

Barbarians can attack just fine even when they don't have rage or frenzy.
Running out of spell slots is not the same thing as getting actively worse. The direct comparison would be...

Whenever you cast a spell of your highest level, up to level 4, you suffer a level of exhaustion.

Whenever you cast a spell of level 5 - 9, even if that isnt your highest level spell, you take a level of exhaustion.

But even then, it isn't a 1:1 comparison because exhaustion isn't as bad on casters as it is on martials.

Attacking isn't what distinguishes a barbarian from anyone else. Anyone can attack and one attack doesn't distinguish you from anyone else (mostly because attackingnis so generalized and boring but that's another issue).

Raging is what distinguishes them from everyone else. Just like a Rogue is distinguished, not by attacking, but by sneak attacking (which they can do at-will and are expected to do almost at-will to keep up with damage).

If sneak attack was very limited throughout the day I would have this same problem. Or if after sneak attacking the Rogue was exhausted because he put too much effort and mental energy into the attack.

Larpus

2017-03-03, 02:26 PM

We say that people wanting to play casters should have at-will casting so the caster PC can be a caster at all times but rage and especially frenzy should be limited because... Just because.

We all know it's simply because martials can't have nice things.

I'm half-joking, exhaustion really feels odd, out of place and tacked on, considering how few things cause/heal it.

If I were to guess, it's either an early mechanic that was mostly forgotten or a late addition that only got to be attached to couple other mechanics and abilities. Alternatively, it was developed by a designer/group that, for whatever reason, didn't communicate properly with the others resulting in a condition that feels out of place in a sea of abilities that are either always on or X times per short/long rest.

I don't think that in actual play it's that bad, I've been in many campaigns where our encounters were mostly non-battle ones (social, traps, puzzles, exploration, etc) with battles ranging from 1~3 per day at most, in fact, most of the campaigns I play at are like that, but it should totally suck for dungeon crawling-centric adventures (never been to one, though I have been to dungeons every now and then).

Still, it does feel very odd that a barbarian getting an attack as a bonus action makes him exhausted (requiring 1+ long rests to recover) while a druid can turn into a freaking tiger/bear/wolf/squirrel while also healing themselves, stay like that for 1h+ and only need to eat a sandwich and chill for an hour or so.

Motorskills

2017-03-03, 03:23 PM

The important thing to remember is that a Frenzy Path barbarian still gets to Rage without penalty.

The questions are then:

i) Is the Frenzy ability too over-powered without any penalty?
ii) if the answer to (i) is yes, is 1 Frenzy = 1 Exhaustion too much of a penalty.

Dudu

2017-03-03, 04:57 PM

Second thread about this issue in such short span.

The easiest fix I can think of is removing all exhaustion in a long rest. For everyone by the way, not just the barb.

A more balanced aproach would be using Hit Dies to remove exhaustion. 2 HD per exhaustion level sounds fair to me.

Desamir

2017-03-03, 05:01 PM

I'd be interested to see a damage comparison between a GWM Frenzy Barbarian and a GWM/PAM Vengeance Paladin. Perhaps Vow of Enmity should induce exhaustion, as well?

Zalabim

2017-03-04, 03:58 AM

Larpus

2017-03-04, 08:46 AM

I think there's a design assumption that's often overlooked that needs to be mentioned. Parties have downtime. You don't go on an adventure every day. It takes two or three long rests to fully recover, but many parties never get to stop and do that.

Is there anywhere it's mentioned?

Not trying to pick a fight, just curious.

I know for a fact that a berserker would suck a fair bit at my table as we're constantly against the clock, so other than travel time and in-between adventures, we almost never have more than one day of rest.

Zalabim

2017-03-04, 09:48 AM

It's not mentioned as a goal, but it is a result of the baseline rule that you only regain half, rounded down, of your maximum hit dice after a long rest. It takes at least two days off to get back to full, or at least very light combat those days, and sometimes three. There's variants to make healing take more or less time as well.

The downtime expenses and activities also suggest there's supposed to be downtime.

I think AL actually gives out a week or two of downtime as a resource after each adventure. Depending on the adventure, module or not, downtime may be after gaining one or two levels.

Some classes are going to handle constant life-and-death struggles better than others. Barbarians and rogues get only the basic HP from rests, while paladins and fighters recover some extra healing, and many casters will be able to devote more or less spell slots to hp.

As an example, a rogue with 14 con has 38 max hp at level 5. With 5 hit dice, their daily total HP is 70.5. With just 2 hit dice, that's 51, (72% of full), and 64 (90% of full) at 4 hit dice. Jumping up to level 20, an 18 con rogue has 183 max hp, 8.5 per hit die, total of 353. At only 10 hit die, that's 268 (76% of full). If you adventure just as hard on day two, that's up to 85 HP you'll have to make up from potions or spell slots.

The portion of your total HP resources varies based on class, but the raw HP shortfall is pretty stable, varying on actual Constitution score and level.

Beelzebubba

2017-03-04, 10:00 AM

That's the thing, mathematically it's absolutely better, and that's all that matters for balance.

That seems to be the whole problem. I saw earlier on that someone did the math and it worked out just fine - Frenzy was balanced as written - but people hare having aesthetic complaints.

Even if the math of the ability as-is were fundamentally proven, some would still hate it because it just *feels* wrong. I have to agree, the toughest baddest character is (being a bit new to 5e) the only one that I can see that has this exhaustion dynamic for such a low power thing. Pretty odd.

I think it's meant to be the ability to go ULTRA SUPER SAYAN BADASS in a hugely important battle - it would feel awesome to roll so much damage to the final Big Bad Guy, carving a bloody swath through the enemies. But, it's so powerful that there's a price that makes a player really only use it once in a while, generally at the climax. Kind of like the cost of Wish, but a little less dramatic.

Tanarii

2017-03-04, 10:08 AM

Submortimer

2017-03-04, 12:47 PM

Frenzy isn't the best because Bear Totem outstrips everything else by a country mile at level 3.

I don't actually think that's really the case. I think the issue is that, with a feat, I can get that bonus action attack for free without using frenzy.

Seriously, PAM on a Wolf or Bear totem is kind of insane.

Desamir

2017-03-04, 01:03 PM

That's the thing, mathematically it's absolutely better, and that's all that matters for balance.

Compared to what?

Zalabim

2017-03-05, 03:50 AM

I don't actually think that's really the case. I think the issue is that, with a feat, I can get that bonus action attack for free without using frenzy.

Seriously, PAM on a Wolf or Bear totem is kind of insane.

The thing is 1) Feats aren't free and 2) 1d4+str is not "that bonus action attack".

Sub-thing is that PAM is good for the reaction attack, which Berserkers also get from their archetype, and that requires considering your movement and enemy positioning in a very strategic way every turn to maximize. The berserer's reaction attack requires you to rush heedlessly into danger to maximize.

Submortimer

2017-03-05, 11:34 AM

The thing is 1) Feats aren't free and 2) 1d4+str is not "that bonus action attack".

Sub-thing is that PAM is good for the reaction attack, which Berserkers also get from their archetype, and that requires considering your movement and enemy positioning in a very strategic way every turn to maximize. The berserer's reaction attack requires you to rush heedlessly into danger to maximize.

True, but barbarians aren't so MAD that they can't afford a feat.

Also, 1d4+strength(+rage damage) isn't mechanically superior per round...but the fact you can do it at will without exhaustion makes it unquestionably better.

Tanarii

2017-03-05, 01:17 PM

PAM also requires the Attack Action.

Don't get me wrong. I think PAM, which is far too powerful a feat, is clearly superior to an occasional Frenzy. But PAM bonus action attack is not a perfect substitute for the Frenzy bonus action attack.

DanyBallon

2017-03-05, 02:26 PM

I'm wondering, we often assume GWM+PAM build in DPR comparison, and the most effective race to get both feat as early as we can is V. Human. In the case of the Berserker, is V. Human still the most optimal choice, or would Mountain Dwarf or Half-Orc be a better choice if using point-buy? It won't give you a better starting strength modifier, but could allow you to have a better stat distribution. And in the end help the berserker be a little bit better all-around.

Larpus

2017-03-06, 09:20 AM

I always figured frenzy is exhaustion instead of 1/day because so many people screamed that it's "unrealistic" for martial to be limited by daily abilities.

The quick fix is just to make it one per day. Done and done.

That actually makes sense.

I mean, it's ultimately pointless as rage itself is already X/day, but I can see someone in the design team trying to push exhaustion as an alternative mechanic to that; with either disagreements going on or them ultimately deciding against it, which helps explain why exhaustion feels like an "added onto stuff" system but isn't really interacted with by many abilities.

In fact, now I'm left wondering if things would break if you add exhaustion rules on top of X/day abilities, like, you can only do X/day but you can do more by taking exhaustion levels...it might be worthy of a thread...

Frenzy specifically, I'd make it half rages/day or twice a day, as it seems intended to be used more than once but not every single battle.

DanyBallon

2017-03-06, 09:39 AM

That actually makes sense.

I mean, it's ultimately pointless as rage itself is already X/day, but I can see someone in the design team trying to push exhaustion as an alternative mechanic to that; with either disagreements going on or them ultimately deciding against it, which helps explain why exhaustion feels like an "added onto stuff" system but isn't really interacted with by many abilities.

In fact, now I'm left wondering if things would break if you add exhaustion rules on top of X/day abilities, like, you can only do X/day but you can do more by taking exhaustion levels...it might be worthy of a thread...

Frenzy specifically, I'd make it half rages/day or twice a day, as it seems intended to be used more than once but not every single battle.

Allowing one to goes beyond normal daily use limits in exchange of getting exhaustion level is very much in the line of Frenzy designed intent. Would you allow such a mechanic inside the Frenzy feature (i.e. You can Frenzy once per day, and at 10th level twice per day. But you can Frenzy more than the normal limit, if you do so, you get an exhaustion level when you frenzy end.) or would you allow this mechanic for all barbarians (added to rage) or to all features that have a limited number of uses?

Larpus

2017-03-06, 10:29 AM

Allowing one to goes beyond normal daily use limits in exchange of getting exhaustion level is very much in the line of Frenzy designed intent. Would you allow such a mechanic inside the Frenzy feature (i.e. You can Frenzy once per day, and at 10th level twice per day. But you can Frenzy more than the normal limit, if you do so, you get an exhaustion level when you frenzy end.) or would you allow this mechanic for all barbarians (added to rage) or to all features that have a limited number of uses?

Was thinking about all X/day abilities or, at least, all martial classes' X/day abilities.

But to avoid derailing I've created a thread specific for that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?517481-How-badly-would-things-break-to-add-exhaustion-on-top-of-X-day-abilities&p=21777605#post21777605).

Edit: As a fix for Frenzy, 1 or 2 "free" daily uses + as many as you want to stack exhaustion levels seems pretty good and in-line with overall intent and power level of other classes/abilities.

But this whole idea got me thinking if it would be that bad to open the possibility to more classes and whether it'd be an engaging way to use exhaustion or not.