Reason behind D20 modern/etc. characters being somewhat too high-level?

[Schattenbach]

Is there any reason behind D20 Modern(and, for what that counts, D20 Future, D20 Apocalypse and the D20 Menace manual) NPCs (or at least the sample ones stated out in the books) being quite a bit higher-level than one would expect them to be (at least when compared to DnD 3.5 NPCs), what with "Low-level NPCs" being around Level 2, "Mid-Level NPCs" at level 6 and "High-Level NPCs" being at level 10, that isn't that weird in itself (more work to do, the population is bigger and thus its easier for outstanding talents to appear, its easier to stay alive due to advances in technology and less dangerous circumstan´ces in general) ... but things start to fall apart once those books describe what those mid- to high-level standard NPCs usually are ... not some expectionally or outright superhuman persons that are beyond the ordinary in pretty much every way, but only (at best) the top of the department/star politicans and such/high-ranking officials and such or chief physicians or elite Intelligence Agency agents or highly successful scientists ... why would/should they have ever any reason to rise to such high (superhuman) levels that easily?

Did they mess up there and if not, what special reasons might be behind those weird (as pretty muc all jobs that Mid-Rank NPCs are supposed to fill, low-Rank NPCscould to just fine as well ... and there shouldn't be much of an reason why the specs of the Mid-level NPCs wouldn't be enough to do pretty much everything most typical High-Level NPCs are supposed to do as their job, or did I overlook anything there) design choices?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're overthinking it a bit, bud. The two systems make some -very- different base line assumptions. The higher level NPC's of D20 modern aren't "wrong," they're just built on that system's assumptions.

Side note: I'm not sure where you got that assumption about 3.5 (Eberron, maybe?) but the default rules of 3.5 assume that NPC's from a large enough settlement even dip a toe into epic levels on rare occassion, nevermind getting above 10.

[frogglesmash]

In d&d high level characters can take massive amounts of punishment due to their high hitpoints, high saves, buffs, magic items etc. In d20 modern however, you have a massive damage threshold equal to your con score as well as very few ways to significantly increase said con score, this means that most characters are going to have to be making saves to avoid dying far more often regardless of their hit points, this combined with lower values for class bonuses to good saves, and no magic items means that even if you have 30 gajillion hitpoints, rifles and short falls remain a threat throughout your character's career.

[Schattenbach]

Tnanks for the answers.

I rechecked some of the material. It seems like its mostly D20 supplements (i.e. menace manual and such) that are that weird in that regard ... (i.e. claiming that pretty much every particulary high-skilled job is supposedly performed by level 10 npcs ... for whatever weird reason) ... maybe the the designers had no idea what they're actually doing in that section and/or just wanted to hype up their FBI agents/CIA agents/CEOs/military officers/superstars/politicans /ModernDayEinsteins as level 10+ superhumans (or at least nearly legendary, as level 11+ characters are often defined as legendary according to stuff like legend lore, vision, etc and other raw sources within the DnD 3.5 and the D20 systems).

[frogglesmash]

What exactly are 10th level d20 modern characters capable of doing that would make them super human?

[Mordaedil]

Technically, d20 modern assumes that level 10 is an average person in that setting, not a super-human. It's just building on a different context from D&D settings.

[Schattenbach]

What exactly are 10th level d20 modern characters capable of doing that would make them super human?

I'm not talking about level 10 characters (which start entering superhuman territory as CR9/CR10 monsters and challenges are around, and thus what to compare them to, it just looks silly, weird or downright stupid ... ) as such, I'm talking about level 10+ characters and the fact that some D20 works (like menance manual) make claims that look like nonsense to me as I don't understand their point in regard to as to why characters supposedly need to be that high-level in the first place ... and yes, level 7 or higher is actually quite high level as far as basic mundane everyday humans are concerned.

Some basic examples (I didn't list things I couldn't be bothered with or things like mercenaries and such that at least make some sense based on their description):

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) attorneys: public defenders, junior associates in legal firms
High-level (i.e. level 10!) attorneys: assistant district attorneys, corporate legal advisors and such

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) ER physicians: resident physicians
High-level (i.e. level 10!) ER physicians: surgeons, head nurses, etc.

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) firefighter: seasoned volunteer, full-time firefighter, etc.
High-Level (i.e. level 10!) Firefighter: "fireground commander"

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) (Government) Agents: seasoned agent assigned to difficult cases
High-level (i.e. level 10!) (Government) Agents: handle high-priority cases

mid-level (i.e. level 6!) bureaucrat: middle manager(slightly more duties than the secretary, according to text)
high-level (i.e. level 10!) bureaucrat: head of office

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) lawyers: city prosecutors, public defenders, etc.
High-level (i.e. level 10!) lawyers: represent major corporations or famous public figures, etc.

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) parapsychologists: (parapsychology) professors
High-Levek (i.e. level 10!) parapsychologists: recognized/accomplished parapsychologists

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) university scientists: somewhat accomplished
high-level (i.e. level 10!) university scientists: good enough to earn government grant

Moreover, the text implies that that high-level (i.e. level 10) is usually the baseline (so they could easily be much higher leveled ... like the 0815 CIA field agents listed in the CIA section with
12 HD or the 0815 FBI Special Agent with 13 HD ... but as those are - more or less - the higher-level mooks that are possibly dealing with out of the world threats, aliens,
supervillians and supernatural horrors, them being slightly high-level is understandable at least to some degree) for that position which sounds like plain bull**** because why
would they ever need to be that high-level (i.e. level 10) to actually do that kind of job (as level 6 seems more than sufficient to get the job done)?

So it seems like the only reason that they actually are "supposed" to be that high-level is because ... game balance (because even with 45+ HP, they're still somewhat frail and mundane humans are obviously meant to tank military weapons and to fight against aliens/prehistoric beasts/cryptids or whatever else without any such training in particular) or something along these lines?

[frogglesmash]

I'm not talking about level 10 characters (which start entering superhuman territory as CR9/CR10 monsters and challenges are around, and thus what to compare them to, it just looks silly, weird or downright stupid ... ) as such, I'm talking about level 10+ characters and the fact that some D20 works (like menance manual) make claims that look like nonsense to me as I don't understand their point in regard to as to why characters supposedly need to be that high-level in the first place ... and yes, level 7 or higher is actually quite high level as far as basic mundane everyday humans are concerned.

Some basic examples (I didn't list things I couldn't be bothered with or things like mercenaries and such that at least make some sense based on their description):

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) attorneys: public defenders, junior associates in legal firms
High-level (i.e. level 10!) attorneys: assistant district attorneys, corporate legal advisors and such

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) ER physicians: resident physicians
High-level (i.e. level 10!) ER physicians: surgeons, head nurses, etc.

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) firefighter: seasoned volunteer, full-time firefighter, etc.
High-Level (i.e. level 10!) Firefighter: "fireground commander"

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) (Government) Agents: seasoned agent assigned to difficult cases
High-level (i.e. level 10!) (Government) Agents: handle high-priority cases

mid-level (i.e. level 6!) bureaucrat: middle manager(slightly more duties than the secretary, according to text)
high-level (i.e. level 10!) bureaucrat: head of office

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) lawyers: city prosecutors, public defenders, etc.
High-level (i.e. level 10!) lawyers: represent major corporations or famous public figures, etc.

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) parapsychologists: (parapsychology) professors
High-Levek (i.e. level 10!) parapsychologists: recognized/accomplished parapsychologists

Mid-level (i.e. level 6!) university scientists: somewhat accomplished
high-level (i.e. level 10!) university scientists: good enough to earn government grant

Moreover, the text implies that that high-level (i.e. level 10) is usually the baseline (so they could easily be much higher leveled ... like the 0815 CIA field agents listed in the CIA section with
12 HD or the 0815 FBI Special Agent with 13 HD ... but as those are - more or less - the higher-level mooks that are possibly dealing with out of the world threats, aliens,
supervillians and supernatural horrors, them being slightly high-level is understandable at least to some degree) for that position which sounds like plain bull**** because why
would they ever need to be that high-level (i.e. level 10) to actually do that kind of job (as level 6 seems more than sufficient to get the job done)?

So it seems like the only reason that they actually are "supposed" to be that high-level is because ... game balance (because even with 45+ HP, they're still somewhat frail and mundane humans are obviously meant to tank military weapons and to fight against aliens/prehistoric beasts/cryptids or whatever else without any such training in particular) or something along these lines?

As far as I can tell none of the examples you presented are capable of anything superhuman. Their HP is largely irrelevant because even 1st level characters can force saves for massive damage with the majority of their attacks, and even a tenth level character has only a 40ish% chance of making the save DC thanks to the slower save progressions. None of their ability scores will be shockingly high because there are next to no ways to buff them. The only thing I might consider to be unbelievable is the fact that all of them have much higher BABs than their careers would indicate. If I had to guess why these NPCs had such a high level, I'd probably say it was so they could regularly succeed at certain skill checks.

[weckar]

The scale of power is simply far different from a D&D by adding granularity. 1HP in d20 modern for example is not equivalent to 1HP in D&D. Same with BAB and other stats.

[Khedrac]

Part of the problem is that WotC's level assumption for D&D doesn't work.

Somewhere there is a very nice, well reasoned and well written article explaining how the skill system works so that (iirc) Olympic athletes are level 3 with max skill ranks. This article, taken on its own, works nicely, but it completely fails as a justification for level 3 being normal human max level except for very exceptional individuals.
And that reason is experience. The amount of xp needed to level up to beyond 3 is far too low for the explanation to work.

If D20 modern is aiming for level 10 being normal human max, that sounds as if it works much better for the rate people are likely to gain xp across a normal lifetime. What it does to their capabilities in making skill checks is another question however...

[frogglesmash]

~snip~ What it does to their capabilities in making skill checks is another question however...

It should be noted that unlike players, most NPCs have very few maxed skills, and instead put only a few points in a wider variety of skills.

[weckar]

I have to agree there. Looking at the olympian example: They have put ALL their time and effort in maxing out one single skill. Their total ability to succeed at any task, however, may be far below average if such tasks fall outside their narrow skill range.
More 'normal' people, however, will have more of a jack-of-all-trades approach. A little towards their job, their hobbies, their social life - even some skills they have but will never practically use due to a wasted summer as a kid.