Optimization With the Warlock UA, what does an optimized Bladelock look like now? [Archive]

Steampunkette

2017-02-23, 06:57 PM

I'd say it depends on how you want to wield the pact of the blade.

Is it your fallback weapon or is it your primary weapon?

If it's your primary weapon:

Stack Charisma a lot. Wield a d8 versatile weapon and a shield while wearing Half-Plate if possible (Breastplate, otherwise). Get yourself 2 points of dex bonus, 3 if you plan to grab mastery. Put everything else into Constitution.

Use your Invocations to pick up thirsting blade and lifedrinker, but grab agonizing blast and repelling blast, too. It's important to have some ranged options and also to be able to reshape the battlefield on a dime.

Skip Cursebringer. Or talk to your DM about allowing it to work with a one-hander instead of a Greatsword.

For spells hang on to Hellish Rebuke for reaction damage, Hex for a consistent increase, and grab Cone of Cold as soon as possible. Destructive Wave is also basically mandatory because of the way it works in a fight.

Gives you a nice well-rounded combat palette with a few open invocation slots for any craziness you want to get into (Like Darkness/Devil Sight).

Saggo

2017-02-23, 07:12 PM

Optimizing for damage hasn't changed much at all. It will still be a PAM+GWM build, but with +x and Smiting as additional Invocations. Use Halberd as normal, change it to Greatsword when you want to Smite. Even a Fighter dip only goes away if you roll for stats and can squeeze a 14 Dex after getting Str, Cha, and Con, even with Hexblade.

What's really changed is the sheer number of possible Bladelock builds that can do effective, if not the best, damage.

Mikal

2017-02-23, 07:17 PM

Alternatively, go Fighter 1, dump Dex, take heavy armor and use defensive fighting style.
pick up a great sword and go Str, Cha, and Con.
Pick up Agonizing Blast and EB for ranged options
Your second invocation isn't as important, since you'll swap it at level 5.
Pick up Thirsting Blade at level 5, swap the other invoc for Curse Bringer.

Either stick with Hexblade and Pact until 14th level Warlock for unlimited Curses, or drop out now and pick up a caster class like Sorc for extra spell slots for smiting. I prefer the new Favored Soul myself, for some healing goodness and the small hp boost.

Save the smites for when you crit since you can activate it after you find out you did crit, or for emergency situations.

Either way, Anything past Warlock 14 (15 if you want ultimate pact blade) isn't really needed for a good melee Hexblade.

Good feats for this build: GWM, Blade Mastery (UM) for the +1 to hit and +1 AC. With the AC boost from that since you don't use your reaction anyway will get you a reliable AC of 20, and using Sorc gives you a few free spell slots for Shield for those times you need more AC than that.

Good invocations: Relentless Hex, Pact Weapons (if the DM is stingy), Lifedrinker

That, combined with the 50% miss chance against your Cursed opponent, will make you pretty tough. Never use your warlock slots for spells if possible, unless you know you won't need to Smite. When you go into sorc, use those slots for spells and/or smites as you like.

Vorpalchicken

2017-02-23, 07:19 PM

I found darkness plus Devils sight (hex can be skipped) plus cursebringer was awesome. Giant crit strikes a plenty. We had lots of short rest opportunity though. Oh and racial darkness is good to have too if possible.

Mikal

2017-02-23, 07:30 PM

Regardless, the answer to "what does an optimized Bladelock look like now" is... no one is really sure, since you can see all the different responses above.

The important thing is that Bladelocks actually have options, and perform this roll better than the Shillelagh Tomelock

Submortimer

2017-02-23, 07:39 PM

Traditional bladelock?

Curse bringer strength build, leveraging darkness/devils sight to get advantage while you mark and teleport all around the battlefield.

Kinda nutty damage possibilities? Want to forget that Eldritch Blast exists? Moonbow FTW.

Max dex, max charisma (go for dex first), darkness/devils sight, sharpshooter (only feat you need), thirsting blade, life drinker, moonbow, improved/superior/ultimate weapon, hex.

At level 15: 1d8+1d6+5+5+10+3 (avg 31)per shot, or 62 per round. +8 to hit. Take one level of fighter for archery and the penalty for Sharpshooter effectively vanishes.

Edit: for comparison, the traditional EB + AB + Hex, at level 17, hits for 4d10+4d6+20, or 54 avg damage, with no smiting opportinities.

Saggo

2017-02-23, 07:45 PM

Regardless, the answer to "what does an optimized Bladelock look like now" is... no one is really sure, since you can see all the different responses above.

That's true if you don't answer optimizing for what. Damage is a pretty safe assumption, though.

For damage, PAM+GWM was already the best. It's readily apparent most new options don't actively challenge that. Making non-two-handed cha based won't change how much DPR you'll get, +x directly contributes to PAM and GWM, but Smiting does directly compete. However, since Smiting is a single invocation, you can have both.

So what's really changed is the sheer amount of build options.

Mikal

2017-02-23, 07:52 PM

That's true if you don't answer optimizing for what. Damage is a pretty safe assumption, though.

For damage, PAM+GWM was already the best. It's readily apparent most new options don't actively challenge that. Making non-two-handed cha based won't change how much DPR you'll get, +x directly contributes to PAM and GWm, but Smiting does directly compete. However, since Smiting is a single invocation, you can have both.

So what's really changed is the sheer amount of build options.

Of course the best time to smite is when you crit, so you can either darkness it and go alone in the dark or stick with greatsword.

I like greatsword mainly because you don't have to worry about swapping and the ac and attack bonus are useful, the latter working with pact weapon to negate nearly any problems with adding +10 damage.

Plus the lockdown you can get while when smiting with the sword is a nice thing.

Yeah I know you can potentially get a Magic polearm which can help but it's guaranteed with pact weapon. Also PAM doesn't give the attack bonus that blade master provides and I think the damage from the PAM bonus attack is comparable with a more steady +10 damage chance, unless you're picking up sentinal and trying for a traditional lockdown build.

Though as a mental image a blade lock hexblade wielding one a polearm makes me think of Sarevok going nuts with a ravager +6 and that's a beautiful thing.

Has anyone actually done the math between the two builds?

Malifice

2017-02-23, 08:12 PM

Yeah I like the fighter 1 / hex lock 5 build.

Let's you dump dexterity and intelligence at first level, plus you have heavy armor and constitution saves right off the bat.

You're only 1 level behind for extra attack (via a thirsting blade at 6th) over and above a normal fighter, and you more than make up for it via green flame blade, great weapon master and your smite ability from curse bringer plus your curse.

From there I would probably go by the 5 levels of sorcerer for more slots for shield/smite and for metamagic options.

Heck I would probably take one more level of fighter (action surge) and simply make the remaining levels sorcerer to 13th level (although Hexblade 12 /fighter 3/ sorcerer 5 also works).

Feats are great weapon master and warcaster up with the rest going into charisma.

Saggo

2017-02-23, 10:35 PM

Has anyone actually done the math between the two builds?

There's lots of moving parts, slots used for smites or other spells, level of warlock and slots, when you smite, chance of AoO for PAM vs Blade Master. I might add some sections to a copy of the DPR of Classes spreadsheet if I find time to get a harder look.

But, in the mean time.

AoO is a wash, even with advantage, you'll get more chances from PAM. The +1 AC stance will also use up your Reaction.

Ultimately, it's only +1. While +x is usually one of the best things you can do, it doesn't beat an additional attack. Especially after adding Lifedrinker and GWM. Before level 11, you really only get 3-6 rounds as Smites with expected 2 short rests, over a good 24 rounds of the day.

Plus, if you're fishing for crits, +1 doesn't matter at all and 3-6 chances at a critical (3 attacks and possible advantage) is better than 2-4.

So for optimal damage, I still think PAM+GWM is best, but it's possible full number analysis has Blade Master pull ahead. I did forget about the UA feats. Problem is cherry picking a level to compare isn't enough.

Regardless, Blade Master + GWM is a very solid contender.

Edit: Fixed when you can Smite.

Giant2005

2017-02-24, 05:19 AM

I don't think PAM is king anymore.
The Smite Invocations are insanely powerful and none of them function with a Polearm. I'd go Hexblade 14/Sorc 6. Hexblade has a lot of use for your bonus action and when you don't need to reapply your curse, you can pull out a bonus action BB or GFB.

LordVonDerp

2017-02-24, 08:02 AM

Hexblade
Quarterstaff
Polearm Master

Sception

2017-02-24, 08:13 AM

Re: the suggested Fighter 1 / Hexblade 14 / Sorcerer 5 build

Alternatively, go Fighter 1 / Warlock 14 / sorcerer 5

Good feats for this build: GWM, Blade Mastery (UM) for the +1 to hit and +1 AC. With the AC boost from that since you don't use your reaction anyway will get you a reliable AC of 20, and using Sorc gives you a few free spell slots for Shield for those times you need more AC than that.

plus the other suggestions to go GWM/PAM instead of GWM/Blade Mastery, the possibility of the medium armor upgrade feat, etc...

Even with variant human this level spread you only get one bonus feat plus 4 ASIs, so taking more than one feat comes at the cost of not maxing out your CHA. Is that really a worthwhile trade?

Spiritchaser

2017-02-24, 08:22 AM

Either way, Anything past Warlock 14 (15 if you want ultimate pact blade) isn't really needed for a good melee Hexblade.

Counterpoint: for any GWM build, foresight at 17 is a valid thing. It may or may not be perfectly optimal overall depending on where you go and who you fight, but it's going to be optimal for a lot of situations. Sure Darkness or improved invisibility can do somewhat the same thing, but not nearly as well, or as reliably, or against higher level things that have the ability to see by abnormal means.

I guess this just dogpiles on the comment that Hexblade has so very many options now.

Fighter 1, PAM is very strong, as before. It's now more of a snarled mess for bonus action competition, but for sustained damage on the big bad, it only got better.
Fighter 1, GWM and Cursebringer with darkness/improved invisibility or, late game, foresight is very strong
The above without fighter dips are still viable. I personally think they'd be a bit less optimal but certainly not bad!

CHA/CON sword and board with 6 levels in sorcerer or paladin is strong, though I always have reservations on any melee without either very high dex or very high strength to avoid being Tharag the grapplebarian's new favourite cuddle toy. Misty step can help with this a bit if you pick 6 levels of something that gets that.

A hexblade/favoured soul Cha/Con/(some dex) can actually run bless instead of hex, which takes more time at first to set up, but frees up that bonus action to move your curse around instead of having to flip both the curse and hex spell. Bless is very strong on any hexblade, and you can choose on a combat by combat basis which makes more sense.

A hexblade/stone sorc Cha/Con can be super efficient, though again grapples could be a bit of a pain, again, misty step is some relief.

honestly, even barbarian-hexblade would be pretty good since hexblade is, somewhat unexpectedly, less reliant on hex.

Figure out what your image of this character is going to be. how do they fight? what do they wear? how do they move?

You can probably build a hexblade that comes pretty close AND comes within a decent span of optimal, or at least be flat out better at a few things.

jaappleton

2017-02-24, 08:52 AM

It really, really depends on what level you're playing.

Some builds are better at lv5. Some at lv6, etc.

As far as playing levels 1-20? Not starting at 6, or 8, etc?

Hex 5 / new Favored Soul 15 is my style. I get two attacks, tons of Smite-style slots for Curse Bringer, etc. Take GWM at lv4. Find myself some Gauntlets of Ogre Power and go to work. Access to both Cleric and Sorc spell lists, too.

Though... Honestly, there's still a LOT of things to like about the Fiend Bladelock. It was the go-to before, and it's still a VERY solid option. It, too, can do the smite-like ability. Still gets temp HP on a kill. Kiss of Mephistopholes makes for a sweet AoE nova. There's quite a bit to like there.

MrStabby

2017-02-24, 08:55 AM

I have always liked the feypact bladelock and it has certainly got a boost.

Feypact can dump cha - maybe concerning if the game goes past level 11, but there are other things that can be taken then. The extra stats allow you to buy more feats and to have a higher con. The invocation that lets you maximise healing effects is superb for turning you into a tank. Needing half the resources to heal is a really nice boost and helps you keep the front line up. GWM+PAM is, as always, good. When greater invisibility is on your class list it is even better. Throwing in sentinel helps mitigate a lower AC by keeping people out of combat. Feats are less of an issue if you take variant human - the loss of blindsight isn't an issue if you want to take devil's sight.

Now there is also the FeyArcher option. Sharpshooter is already a very powerful feat, adding it to a weapon that can do loads of extra damage when you need it is just superb. Dex is such a useful stat that this feels pretty strong as well.

The mace of dispater adds quite a bit to the fiend lock as well. The fiendlock always had a solid basis for being in close combat but now with the ability to be knocking opponents down every turn they will be a great source of advantage in melee for both you and your allies. If you have more than one other melee focused ally in your party I am pretty sure this is the optimal way to go.

Hexblade? Yeah - there is some good stuff here, I would have to see it in action a bit more though. I worry that much of it is a bit situational. I think that this is more useful as a class for dipping than for playing for longer.

Sception

2017-02-24, 09:14 AM

Expect table variation on 'knocking opponents down every turn'. The invocation can also be read as knocking opponents down only on a smite.

Mikal

2017-02-24, 10:01 AM

Re: the suggested Fighter 1 / Hexblade 14 / Sorcerer 5 build

plus the other suggestions to go GWM/PAM instead of GWM/Blade Mastery, the possibility of the medium armor upgrade feat, etc...

Even with variant human this level spread you only get one bonus feat plus 4 ASIs, so taking more than one feat comes at the cost of not maxing out your CHA. Is that really a worthwhile trade?

If you're using two handed weapons your Charisma honestly isn't as important, except for EB/Agonizing Blast (which can be replaced with javelins, though you lose out on number of attacks heavily there) and Lifedrinker.

Str and Con are much more important, and since you use Fighter as your first level Dex can also be ignored except for Initiative purposes, so no need for Medium Armor Mastery.

Counterpoint: for any GWM build, foresight at 17 is a valid thing. It may or may not be perfectly optimal overall depending on where you go and who you fight, but it's going to be optimal for a lot of situations. Sure Darkness or improved invisibility can do somewhat the same thing, but not nearly as well, or as reliably, or against higher level things that have the ability to see by abnormal means.

Foresight combined with Curse is pretty powerful, true, so 17 could also be a break level.
If it is though, I'd rather do Fighter 3/Warlock 17 or Fighter 2/Warlock 18. The spell slots you get with only 2 levels to play with aren't as useful as Action Surge (use up all those spell slots on smites in a single round!) and an Archetype (have something to do after you use up all those spell slots!). Probably Battlemaster.

jaappleton

2017-02-24, 10:13 AM

Expect table variation on 'knocking opponents down every turn'. The invocation can also be read as knocking opponents down only on a smite.

I'll ask Crawford what the intent is there. A good question. I think its only on the smite, but I can see the argument for the other side.

MrStabby

2017-02-24, 10:25 AM

I'll ask Crawford what the intent is there. A good question. I think its only on the smite, but I can see the argument for the other side.

I think it comes down to where the comma is placed. That said, it is UA so happy to accept that proof reading may not have occurred. Also, whilst I am a RAW kind of guy for the books I would be happy to go with Tweet advice for UA.

Sir cryosin

2017-02-24, 02:42 PM

Sception

2017-02-24, 03:21 PM

I think it comes down to where the comma is placed. That said, it is UA so happy to accept that proof reading may not have occurred. Also, whilst I am a RAW kind of guy for the books I would be happy to go with Tweet advice for UA.

Readings so tight as to depend on tight comma placement are probably putting more work into interpreting these rules than the creators put into writing them. Best to say that for now the rule is ambiguous and, pending some sort of official ruling or rewrite, variation from table to table is to be expected.

Mikal

2017-02-24, 03:41 PM

Haldir

2017-02-24, 04:18 PM

I wonder how this combination would play out?
A fighter 1, fiend bladelock 5, Phoenix sorcerer 16
Maybe add a few more levels and a warlock I don't know. But I have one really cool fiery hell Knight theme to it. Maybe swap out Phoenix sorcerer for the magic the Gathering new PDF with the pyromancer sorcerer origin in it.

Red Dragon Sorc 6, Hexblade 1, Whatever else. Max CHA

Elemental Adept, Hex, GFB, Twin GFB 4D8+5 (CHA to melee) +5 (CHA to spell damage) +2D6 (Hex) for 35 points of damage per single action at level 7. (It's actually slightly higher, because Elemental Adept screws witht eh averages, but I'm lazy) This still leaves you with a bonus action to two weapon fight add a couple of dice and get more Hex damage off. Or use a shield. Later on get someone to cast Haste on you. Drop good AoE fire spells when you need them and use the rest of your sorcery points for twin. You'll drop huge damage practically all day and still have spellcaster options.

Sir cryosin

2017-02-24, 04:41 PM

Red Dragon Sorc 6, Hexblade 1, Whatever else. Max CHA

Elemental Adept, Hex, GFB, Twin GFB 4D8+5 (CHA to melee) +5 (CHA to spell damage) +2D6 (Hex) for 35 points of damage per single action at level 7. (It's actually slightly higher, because Elemental Adept screws witht eh averages, but I'm lazy) This still leaves you with a bonus action to two weapon fight add a couple of dice and get more Hex damage off. Or use a shield. Later on get someone to cast Haste on you. Drop good AoE fire spells when you need them and use the rest of your sorcery points for twin. You'll drop huge damage practically all day and still have spellcaster options.

Ya but the pryomancer for the magic the gathering sorcerer. Lend to better abilities for being in melee. With there lv1 and lv14 abilities damaging creatures that hit it with melee or damaging creatures in a 10 foot radius.

Mikal

2017-02-24, 05:46 PM

Ya but the pryomancer for the magic the gathering sorcerer. Lend to better abilities for being in melee. With there lv1 and lv14 abilities damaging creatures that hit it with melee or damaging creatures in a 10 foot radius.

True, but you'd have to go sorc heavy to really take advantage of it, so is that an optimized bladelock or just a powerful Fire Gish?

RSP

2017-02-25, 01:21 AM

I like the d8 1-handed wielding Hexblade. Consider this: you can either max Str and take Curse Bringer, or you can max Chr and get the following benefits:

- Maintain high DCs for casting. This was what I disliked about the old Bladelock options: you sacrifice your ability to cast too much. Now you can be great at both

- Keep pace with other Warlocks in terms of EB: instead of taking Curse Bringer, grab Agonizing Blast. You're as good as any other blastlock since your Chr mod keeps pace.

- At 11, add you Chr mod, which should be +5, twice to every melee attack. This is a very nice benefit over the Curse Bringer Warlock who had to sacrifice their Chr in order to max their Str, get some Dex and keep enough Con to stay in the fight.

- Dump Str

Basically you can now be a fully effective Bladelock, Blastlock and Caster all-in-one. The only things you sacrifice are base weapon damage from a 7 average for a great sword to a 5.5 average for using a long sword 2-handed (made up for eventually with doubling you +5 Chr mod rather than only adding +2, and being able to dump Str from lvl 1, making an all around better character); and the Smite ability (assuming the knock prone ability is tied to the Smiting), which already competes with using spells as they both eat up limited spell slots, but is made up for in actually being a very effective caster.

Past level 11, the damage is a push and the versatility of being an effective caster trumps the smites. Being able to dump Str for greater value in Chr, Con and Dex works too.

Sception

2017-02-26, 12:41 PM

Submortimer

2017-02-26, 01:03 PM

the problem then is that, while you're not necessarily terrible at melee, you have no motivation to ever actually do it. Barring high end magic weapons, you're as good or better with eldritch blast, which you can do with less risk thanks to the range. I personally would want to play a bladelock who, while ranged casting might still be an option, would actually mechanically prefer to mix things up in close combat.

Except that this just isn't true anymore. The breakpoints used to be 5 and 11 for when EB absolutely overtakes the Blade, and with the inclusion of the Improved/Superior/Ultimate pact weapons that more or less vanishes.

True, EB still requires less investment to be good. That I still personally think is an issue, but focusing on pure bladelock now is an extremely compelling option.

My personal Hexblade fix adjusts a couple things, but notably only allows the Curse to proc on Melee attacks.

Captain Morgan

2017-02-26, 01:39 PM

I think the Cha Bladelock can still be built to prefer melee-- it will just largely come to down to spell selection, and to a lesser extent feats. (Being less MAD means you have more room for feats, after all.) Arms of Hadar, Armor fo Agathys, and Hellish Rebuke all encourage you to be in the fray, and that's just first level. Hex can also be used to give disadvantage on grapple checks which can make up for a lower strength score. At higher levels you've got stuff Staggering Smite, Elemental Weapon, Blink, and Destructive Wave. Armor of Hexes and the Healing Curse also makes it a lot easier to risk getting smacked up to boot.

I also have mixed feelings for optimized bladelock builds involving multiclassing, since evidently UA isn't designed for it evidently. I guess it makes sense to get the builds out there so Wizards knows what needs to be changed?

RSP

2017-02-26, 11:18 PM

I'm pretty sure EB doesn't over take melee on the build I posted.

At 11 you would have attacks of +9 to hit and 1d10+5 damage, three times with EB. (W/ Agonizing Blast). Average per hit: 10.5

You would have 2 attacks of +11 to hit and 1d10+12 damage. (W/ Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker and Superior Pact Weapon). Average per hit: 17.5

About balanced but melee is better both in total damage and having an increased chance to hit. Also, this build lets you easily stay competitive with using EB if needed. Not so for the Str/Curse Bringer build.

And no multiclass required.

Steampunkette

2017-02-27, 12:37 AM

So... Looking at making a Hexblade with Pact of the Tome.

... she looks a heck of a lot more fun to play.

Thornwhip and Agonized Repelling Blast for battlefield control. When someone gets in close she's got GFB and BB. Devil Sight and Hunger of Hadar, Tiefling so Racial Darkness, too. Thief of Five Fates for when there's a swarm of mostly irrelevant enemies who might land some lucky hits. And since I've got plenty of Cantrips I grabbed Control Winds, Mold Earth, and Control Fire for when I need a lift or a building to burn down faster... or a place to dump the bodies.

It looks freaking SICK as a playstyle, and with medium armor, a shield, and Warcaster I'll be nicely armored and good to go on those concentration effects.