I have 4,000 kobolds and a castle, what should I do?

[ApplePen]

I recently took control of a castle full of kobolds, bargained them into indentured servitude, and the whole shebang is in the middle of a hamlet where my character is a high priest.


I don't really know what to do with all these kobolds. I am a lv 11 War cleric. Part of the game has been town defence and development- we made a mine, a bar, a farm, a well and a temple before the castle appeared by magic. Now these kobolds all look to me as a leader and we can use them for anything. What would you do with a city of kobolds?

[Toofey]

Start raiding caravans?

[Cybren]

Step 1: remove all the kobolds from the castle
Step 2: fill the castle with a loyal garrison of soldiers dependent on you for wealth
Step 3: Force the kobolds to do menial and/or back breaking labor to enrich you and your loyal soldiers in exchange for protection
Step 4: congrats! you invented feudalism

[DracoKnight]

Read about Tucker's Kobolds, and then have them rig up the castle.

[ApplePen]

Read about Tucker's Kobolds, and then have them rig up the castle.

That was the first thing I did

[Hawkstar]

Use the Kobolds to play Sim City. Sort of. You need workers, soldiers, scientists, bureaucrats, and entertainers.

[Gizmogidget]

With 4,000 kobolds I would be using that power to begin attacks on other stronger races, perhaps we will overcome those orcs to the south, or later the gnolls to the east, then the ogres to the west, and the hobgoblins of the north etc. What is important now is making sure that your army isn't made of kobolds entirely, because while kobolds are good cannon fodder, that is about it (unless of course they are intelligent/have class levels/ or are in anyway capable of a strategy beyond I attack the closest creature.)

[lordshadowisle]

Use the Kobolds to play Sim City. Sort of. You need workers, soldiers, scientists, bureaucrats, and entertainers.

I very much suspect that instead of Sim City, you'll end up with Dwarf Kobold Fortress instead.

[Finback]

The world's most elaborate stage play, with a cast of thousands.

Kobeo and Juliurd.

[ApplePen]

I'd love to play Kobold Fortress. Sim FantaCity would be cool too, but what to build?

[Breaklance]

I'd love to play Kobold Fortress. Sim FantaCity would be cool too, but what to build?

start a vineyard and also farm hopps. Kobolds work the vineyard and brew beer. Call it Bold Brews. Start a shipping company, ship it everywhere become rich

With that wealth you support an army to protect you, the town, your holdings, and your castle.

Your now House Redwynne from Game of Thrones. Or go full into mining and become House Lannister

[Unoriginal]

start a vineyard and also farm hopps. Kobolds work the vineyard and brew beer. Call it Bold Brews. Start a shipping company, ship it everywhere become rich

With that wealth you support an army to protect you, the town, your holdings, and your castle.

Your now House Redwynne from Game of Thrones. Or go full into mining and become House Lannister

4000 kobolds is already a big army.

[MrStabby]

How does your god feel about sacrificing Kobalds to their greater glory? Or maybe you just build the biggest, most magnificent temple to your deity that the world has ever seen.

[Cybren]

4000 kobolds is already a big army.

A population of 4000 probably won't be 100% prime fighting candidates. Between the very old/young, injured, etc, you aren't going to be at full strength.

[Spiritchaser]

I guess it depends a bit on your local political situation, and a bit on what your particular deity prefers, but how about educating those kobolds?

Not just classical literature, but civil rights? Propaganda resistance?

These guys are pretty bright when it comes to engineering traps, why not see if a couple of generations of opportunity can lead to a group of kobolds that can competently elect their leader democratically?

Start a new philosophy or religion "yes we all have it in our nature to sadistically torture small animals and weaker friends, but the rewards of a caring society are great, charity is it's own reward, and our democratically elected leader has instituted a rule of law whereby he gets to keep a few of your teeth or finger bones for his collection if you fall back into the old ways" er... maybe not that very last bit...

Probably not possible, but it might be the first time it's ever been tried!

[Cybren]

But if your kobolds have civil rights the serfs will start agitating for them...

[Spiritchaser]

But if your kobolds have civil rights the serfs will start agitating for them...

And this is a problem... Why?

Well I suppose that depends on who ones character is...

If you follow a benevolent God this might be the beginning of greatness

If you're a despot then not so much

If you happen to be a trickery cleric, following the God of mischeif, low grade evil and lost toilet paper holder spring tubes then this might also be a good fun thing to try.

[jaappleton]

Marry the Kobold Princess, to strengthen the relationship between humanoids and Kobold-kind.

And in time... Your differences will be forgotten.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have 4,000 kobolds and a castle, what should I do?

Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure*.


* that you don't come home one day to your castle and find out that Tucker's Kobolds have taken over an you're out on your ass

[Grondar]

Expend their lives in a holy war against your biggest opponent. This will have the benefit of reducing the threat that they will eventually pose. They are evil and a leopard doesn't change it's spots.

Be aware of any kobolds that survive and possibly gain some levels.

[NecroDancer]

Teach them how to dance/sing/American culture and then have them perform "Hamilton".

[RazDelacroix]

Volo's guide mentions one way that kobolds interact positively with towns and cities! SEWER WORK! It's underground, they do excellent work keeping the place sanitary, it helps everyone above and below, and if you are cruel you can think of it as way for them to never bother you again with the exception of the occasional food/supply shipment!

Still, it's a beginning to your own divine city of- wait, who does your war cleric worship?

[Hawkstar]

I guess it depends a bit on your local political situation, and a bit on what your particular deity prefers, but how about educating those kobolds?

Not just classical literature, but civil rights? Propaganda resistance?

These guys are pretty bright when it comes to engineering traps, why not see if a couple of generations of opportunity can lead to a group of kobolds that can competently elect their leader democratically?

Start a new philosophy or religion "yes we all have it in our nature to sadistically torture small animals and weaker friends, but the rewards of a caring society are great, charity is it's own reward, and our democratically elected leader has instituted a rule of law whereby he gets to keep a few of your teeth or finger bones for his collection if you fall back into the old ways" er... maybe not that very last bit...

Probably not possible, but it might be the first time it's ever been tried!
By "Democratically elect a leader", you mean the guys they have manage day-to-day affairs and function as a liason between the Kobolds and their Player Character overlord, right? Because throwing away the authority over the Kobolds is just idiocy.

[Deleted]

4000 kobolds is already a big army.

Idk, I always thought kobolds were really small and didn't weigh much.

[Grondar]

Volo's guide mentions one way that kobolds interact positively with towns and cities! SEWER WORK! It's underground, they do excellent work keeping the place sanitary, it helps everyone above and below, and if you are cruel you can think of it as way for them to never bother you again with the exception of the occasional food/supply shipment!

Still, it's a beginning to your own divine city of- wait, who does your war cleric worship?

Now you are taking away jobs from your honest citizenry.

[Deleted]

Now you are taking away jobs from your honest citizenry.

Make sure the town is CE/CN in alignment and you won't have that problem!

[MBControl]

Bum, sorry, Kobold Fights.

[Tetrasodium]

to quote Volo's


You can establish a monstrous creatures as just an other culture in your campaign, one that has alliances and rivalries with humans, elves, and dwarves. A hobgoblin kingdom might serve as a buffer between a human kingdom and a blighted region overrun by the spawn of Kyuss. Kobolds might be city builders, the architects of grand, heavily fortified edifices, which other folk dwell in for a price. The cultural notes in chapter 1 are the standard D&D depiction of these creatures, but by no means do they define them for your campaign. Use them as a starting point for your own ideas.
and this among other things


Those of other humanoid races have little good to say about kobolds, but they do admit that the little reptilians do respectable tunnel work using simple tools. If a band of kobolds is enslaved by more powerful creatures, the kobolds are usually put to work enlarging their masters' living area and protecting vital areas of the lair with traps and other defenses.
Some human communities hire kobolds to dig their sewer tunnels, paying them with food and tools the kobolds wouldn't have access to on their own. If they are treated well and left alone to do the job, the kobolds work industriously and build a network of passages beneath the streets, connecting them to a nearby waterwayand greatly improving the town's sanitation. If the kobolds like the area and aren't mistreated by the humans, they might build a warren and make a permanent home there, while continuing to expand the town's sewers as the community grows. These so-called "city kobolds" live underground but might make occasional nighttime forays up to the surface. Roughly one quarter of the towns and cities in the world have kobold communities
living under them, but the kobolds are so good at staying hidden that the surface-dwelling citizens in the area often don't know what lies beneath them.
Because the kobolds make sure they stay out of the way of anyone more dangerous than themselves, grow their own subterranean food, and prefer to sneak about at night, the people of a town might go for weeks or months without noticing evidence that kobolds are in the area, and years between actual sightings.


In other words, put them to work. a proper sewer system for the town or a few levels of underground castle expansion. Help fund the tools by making the citizens pay a small tax to have their homes connected to the sewage system.
If it's a bigger town, I'm sure there are some tavern/inn/various retail establishments that would pay handsomely to have a sub-basement network for storage and/or just discrete deliveries as that wanes too.

[ApplePen]

Town is NG, I am LG, cleric of Heironeous. Kobolds are kobolds and I'm the only one in the party that speaks Draconic

[Tetrasodium]

Town is NG, I am LG, cleric of Heironeous. Kobolds are kobolds and I'm the only one in the party that speaks Draconic


Neither is a problem


Alignment. Kobolds are fundamentally selfish, making them evil, but their reliance on the strength of their group makes them trend toward law.


They aren't kick the dog evil, more like a couple two year olds after trick or treating. The advantage to you & the town is that they don't have too much interest in being above ground in the daylight & are weak+cowardly so more than happy to give the town guards the occasional shiny thing they find underground to look the other way towards the occasional bit of mischief

When they go after items that aren't free for the tak-
ing, kobolds try to remain undetected and don't give
their targets reason to harm them. For example, a group
of city kobolds might sneak into a cobbler's house at
night to loot it of knives, leather bits, nails, and other
useful items, but if they are at risk of discovery, they run
away rather than attack anyone in the house. By fleeing
before they can be seen or identified, they avoid getting
into a situation where the townsfolk would try to hunt
down all kobolds and put the tribe's survival at risk.
Some aggressive individual kobolds and tribes do
exist, but in general kobolds don't purposely provoke
retaliatory attacks from the creatures they steal from.
It's better to be cautious and overlooked than to be con-
sidered dangerous and a threat.
In a couple of situations, kobolds might abandon
this careful approach. First, because of their hatred of
gnomes, city kobolds often go out of their way to target
gnomes' houses and shops. Even in such cases, the
kobolds' fear of retaliation usually prevents them from
trying to directly harm the gnomes, but they might spit
in the milk, balance dishes on tables so they're easily
knocked over and broken, or scatter sewing needles all
over the floor-petty, vengeful acts that humiliate, injure,
or anger the gnomes, but not so much that the gnomes
want to hunt down and kill the kobolds. Because of the
kobolds' animosity, gnomes tend to avoid or abandon
settlements that have a severe infestation of kobolds,
and conversely kobolds are usually driven out of com-
munities that have a large gnome population.
Criminal masterminds they are very much not. Those occasionaal shiny things might easily be worth orders of magnitude more than the occasional hijinx & the proper sewage system in exchange for some nice modern tools is very much win win for both. The clan will police itself against any of them who want to rock the boat too much & risk ruining a good thing rather than risk retaliation.

[jaappleton]

Town is NG, I am LG, cleric of Heironeous. Kobolds are kobolds and I'm the only one in the party that speaks Draconic

They're not going to just follow anything you say blindly. But if you're a good leader, instill infrastructure, build economy, trade routes, etc... You could parlay deals with other lands.

[Dragolord]

Kill the elderly and the runts, set up a breeding programme, and start up a restaurant franchise based around exotic meat.

[Bahamut7]

This is obvious...you have an army. Educate and train the Kobolds. You have potentially 4,000 (less excluding the non-combatants) rogues, fighters, alchemists, wizards (it's possible), shamans, Barbarians (never underestimate a raging Kobold that can out maneuver you), clerics, paladins, monks, etc. These guys could help you topple an army over night. Imagine with their natural sneakiness ones that can dish out the damage.

Once they are trained, march into battle and have the Bardolds play "We will Rock you." Your enemies will be stupefied at the sight of 4,000 kobolds attacking to that beat.

[Deleted]

This is obvious...you have an army. Educate and train the Kobolds. You have potentially 4,000 (less excluding the non-combatants) rogues, fighters, alchemists, wizards (it's possible), shamans, Barbarians (never underestimate a raging Kobold that can out maneuver you), clerics, paladins, monks, etc. These guys could help you topple an army over night. Imagine with their natural sneakiness ones that can dish out the damage.

Once they are trained, march into battle and have the Bardolds play "We will Rock you." Your enemies will be stupefied at the sight of 4,000 kobolds attacking to that beat.

No... Bad idea dude.

I would think a person with your username would know exactly WHY this is a bad idea.

[gfishfunk]

Make an in-game LARP.

Train the Kobolds to fight with wooden swords against wooden swords, and to fake-die when struck. Then, charge money to travelers to "experience fighting an army of kobolds."

[Tetrasodium]

No... Bad idea dude.

I would think a person with your username would know exactly WHY this is a bad idea.


Agreed. Just treat them well, give them tools to make desirable stuff below ground & they can always come out of the woodwork to help defend those pretty decent surface folks fighting for their lives up top if something nasty comes along. Don't forget stuff like runnels that go through a mountain rather than a longer & potentially more treacherous trade route around them. even evil dragons & wizards know better than to arm their enslaved kobolds like was suggested.

[8wGremlin]

Educate them; teach them the ways of your God,
Give them purpose and a direction.
Train them to be the best they can, in the service of your God's tenets.

Do not abuse them, that way leads to an uprising that you'll have to put down.
You are LG respect them, or you may fall. (perhaps they are sent here to test your faith?)

Set them up making things and mining and building, set up a commune where they share in the products of the town.

4000 of them, and you're bound to get Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers etc.


those that can cast 'cure light wound', 'goodberry' can be used to help heal;
You have teams that can go round and 'mend' things.
'mold earth' can be used to shape the land and provide irrigation etc.

They are light and fast and are good in pacts. Also they make excellent night guards, arm them with bows or cross bows.

[Beleriphon]

I recently took control of a castle full of kobolds, bargained them into indentured servitude, and the whole shebang is in the middle of a hamlet where my character is a high priest.


I don't really know what to do with all these kobolds. I am a lv 11 War cleric. Part of the game has been town defence and development- we made a mine, a bar, a farm, a well and a temple before the castle appeared by magic. Now these kobolds all look to me as a leader and we can use them for anything. What would you do with a city of kobolds?

Do a city full of human stuff but using kobolds?

[Deleted]

Educate them; teach them the ways of your God,
Give them purpose and a direction.
Train them to be the best they can, in the service of your God's tenets.

Do not abuse them, that way leads to an uprising that you'll have to put down.
You are LG respect them, or you may fall. (perhaps they are sent here to test your faith?)

Set them up making things and mining and building, set up a commune where they share in the products of the town.

4000 of them, and you're bound to get Druids, Clerics, Wizards, Sorcerers etc.


those that can cast 'cure light wound', 'goodberry' can be used to help heal;
You have teams that can go round and 'mend' things.
'mold earth' can be used to shape the land and provide irrigation etc.

They are light and fast and are good in pacts. Also they make excellent night guards, arm them with bows or cross bows.

You don't need to educate them. Seriously, why do you think oppressive regimes so desperately mess with education?

A smart commoner is a dangerous commoner.

A smart kobold becomes PunPun at some point.

Or at the very least asks "why am I worshiping X when I'm a dragon and Tiamat is my great grand ma somewhere down the line".

[Exentia]

Do nothing and eventually adventurers will come to your doorstep trying to kill you because they are on a holy quest. :smalltongue:

[toapat]

No... Bad idea dude.

I would think a person with your username would know exactly WHY this is a bad idea.

Do you think Bahamut would really stop one of his Clerics from going into a den of Kobolds and trying to reform the Genetic-Atrocity-Gone-Horribly-wrong that his Sister-wife-Nemesis performed thousands of years ago. Kobolds are still his kids somewhen down the line.

Now, generally speaking Kobolds are more effective at Menial Labor or Civil Engineering than they are at warfare. Exploit this. you now have a Castle for everyone to live in, you have an abundant labor force that likes being out of the way, and you have whatever population of the town that is now a small city which can function in other Non-civil matters, such as training a large contingent of blacksmiths, knights, and casters.

That isnt to say you dont train your Kobolds either, or let them operate as a shadow government. You have to keep Kobolds in the loop of society. If this means literally posting a sign outside that says "No Gnome Allowed" for the sake of civil peace, do it. And actually make sure that the Kobolds support the Agricultural dependence of the city so that they dont have to steal.

[Bahamut7]

No... Bad idea dude.

I would think a person with your username would know exactly WHY this is a bad idea.

No good idea. Why are Kobolds normally aggressive towards adventurers? They are trying to survive and their territory is usually invaded. When all they have done is repurposed an abandoned ruin. By educating them and making them equals, they are valuable allies who are quite good with engineering and focusing the group on a single project.

you treat them well, they don't try to summon Tiamat.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Stranded_in_fantasy

In this story at one point the group encounters Kobold bandits and reformed them...they create a new settlement...new Chicago. :biggrin:

[Drackolus]

Kobolds aren't goblins. They are small and meek, but they are the mental equivalents of humans, dwarves, and elves. Their evil is purely trained. At least, that's the standard lore. They should be no harder to reform than bandits. Make them comfortable and let them live as safely and well-fed as possible with as much autonomy as you can allow. Especially since they tend towards law at least as much as evil. As stated in Volo's:

In the kobolds' version of a perfect world, the creatures would be left alone to dig their tunnels and raise the next generation of kobolds, all the while seeking the magic that will free their imprisoned god (see the "Kurtulmak: God of Kobolds" sidebar).
The god-bit is troublesome, but not incredibly. They probably won't succeed.
Their best fit is a mine. Make sure that they are getting something out of the deal; "We won't enslave or be mean to you and we'll protect you from those that would" is about as good as it gets dor them. Work with them to set a reasonable quota (a percentage requires enforcement, and that's counter-productive), and offer to pay them with goods.
As has been said, kobolds don't like to rock the boat, and security is the greatest luxury a kobold tribe could typically only dream of. You know what will rock the boat? Humans. Humans are unpredictable at best, and quick to forget any sort of agreement for no good reason. And as soon as some old lady misplaces a pot, the entire village will have pitchforks and torches within the minute heading towards the mine. It seems like they already trust you, and that's probably the only thing that makes all of this mildly feasable. But if they are made overwhelmingly aware that the arrangement is purely beneficial for them, they will be more reluctant to cause trouble as well. They will likely insist on some sort of "security" against the kobolds regardless of any real threat they may pose, but instating it will do more harm than good, for both sides. All that would do is reinforce the idea that it is needed. Sideswipe any demands for one by stating that the local watch's duties include stopping thievery of all races. There may be disproportionate rate of arrests, but if your court is fair and "on the spot executions" are swiftly and harshly punished, it won't be a big issue. Guards that repeatedly arrest creatures who are found innocent should be discharged. Allowing some kobolds into the night watch will be bumpy at first, but as long as you make it perfectly clear to your guard captain(s) that any such bullying will not be tolerated, the watch will swiftly come to see them as brothers-in-arms.
I'd consider instating a quarterly (4 times a year) celebration at night for the "miraculous alliance" with the kobolds, filled with booze and dancing. It's a good positive reinforcement that is more "real" to the villagers than some old tales they might have heard about. It will likely save more money than it costs. Remember, you don't need to completely quash all the "speciesism," just the majority of it.
Hopefully, gnomes aren't around. That blood feud is an issue. You might be able to convince the gnomes that these kobolds are alright.

This is all assuming your dm is going to put that much thought into the whole thing, and most wouldn't focus so much on it. You might be able to say "I try to secure a nearby mine and have them work it" and be good to go.

[Addaran]

You don't need to educate them. Seriously, why do you think oppressive regimes so desperately mess with education?

A smart commoner is a dangerous commoner.

A smart kobold becomes PunPun at some point.

Or at the very least asks "why am I worshiping X when I'm a dragon and Tiamat is my great grand ma somewhere down the line".

Because Tiamat is a cruel mistress that will treat them as slave and will probably use them as cannon fodder.

Heironus will respect them and protect them as long as they act good towards each others and the humans, while following the laws.

[danpit2991]

step 1. get all of them to study magic

step 2. take army of spellcasters against "evil" humanoids to level up


step 3. use army of leveled spellcasters to conquer the continent

step 4 profit

[Sigreid]

I'm thinking if you get access to True Polymorph and turn 1, just one into a silver dragon they might worship you forever.

[Temperjoke]

You know, if you let them establish safe territory under the city (like tunnels and lairs) they might encourage other Kobolds to migrate there for the safety that you are providing. This could be the foundation of a new kobold nation that is grateful to you as it's founder/provider. Using that influence, you could begin a mass conversion to the worship of your god.

[Herobizkit]

I'm with the educate and train plan. They're great ground workers; I really like the vineyard idea posted above. If you can lean them into a nature-loving bent, some might become Druids or even Rangers. As long as you're not crazy zealous in your expansion, having Druids/Rangers on your side can only help your communities at large.

[MasterMercury]

My players currently have a similar problem, they have 30 liberated Quaggoths and a bag of holding. So far, they were just using them to liberate more Quaggoths from their slavers, but I'm not sure what they are going to do now.

Can I ask for advice about that here, or start a new thread? I'm looking for ways to provide opportunities for my players to grow their following to something.

If you're good, you have a lot of options. Building a friendly community where humans and kobolds coexist is probably your best idea.
No Gnomes allowed
Gno Gnomes allowed?
Just say gNOme?

[Drackolus]

No Gnomes allowed
Gno Gnomes allowed?
Just say gNOme?

Gnomes are smelly anyway.
You know, it's odd how my favorite race used to be gnomes, and now it's kobolds. Partially because I really like dragons and partially because kobolds are freaking adorable.
I actually still like gnomes quite a bit.

[MasterMercury]

Gnomes are smelly anyway.
You know, it's odd how my favorite race used to be gnomes, and now it's kobolds. Partially because I really like dragons and partially because kobolds are freaking adorable.
I actually still like gnomes quite a bit.

Gnomes and Kobolds are two sides of the same coin. Both are adorable, intelligent, small, and crafty. The fact that one is often Lawful Evil and the other seems to be often Chaotic Good separates them, as do their methods.

A gnomish tri-pronged electric fitz-bang stick will kill you, but a classic Kobold "rock that fall from ceiling" will kill you just the same.

[Hawkstar]

From my understanding, the Gnomes were the bad guys in the initial Kobold/Gnome conflict, that then spiraled out of control because Gnomes are human-shaped and Kobolds weren't.

Anyway - I don't think "Grant the Kobolds equal status to the humans" works - the two races are too different in their mindsets, tolerances, outlooks, and needs. Instead, they should be a protected separate class of citizen.

Of course, their should still be strong interdependence fostered between the humans and kobolds. Ideally, though, you'd want to shape society to have empowered and content kobold workers, guards, craftsmen, architects, engineers, and especially Firemen and artists to make calendars with the Firemen.

[Dragolord]

From my understanding, the Gnomes were the bad guys in the initial Kobold/Gnome conflict, that then spiraled out of control because Gnomes are human-shaped and Kobolds weren't.

The gnome god, Garl Glittergold, tricked and trapped Kurtulmak, the kobold god, underground. The kobolds have been waging a mostly unsuccessful gnome-genocide ever since.

[Hawkstar]

Well, if it's like the previous editions, "Tricked and Trapped" meant "Collapsed Kurtulmak's very fancy palace/monument/mine he'd dedicated his life to building onto him, just for ****s and giggles"

[Vogonjeltz]

Now these kobolds all look to me as a leader and we can use them for anything. What would you do with a city of kobolds?

Just in case, be sure they have a steady supply of Mushroom farming else cannibalism might occur, and although Kobold's typically don't eat talking meat, fear of starvation makes this principle...flexible. (Volo's 65)

[Sigreid]

Just in case, be sure they have a steady supply of Mushroom farming else cannibalism might occur, and although Kobold's typically don't eat talking meat, fear of starvation makes this principle...flexible. (Volo's 65)

Better to have them mining in the underground around the human population and trading gold/gems/sewer diggers for fair rates for food, tools and luxuries. Since the two societies don't really crave the same things or the same environment, separate and respectful of each other is the way to go.

[Vogonjeltz]

Better to have them mining in the underground around the human population and trading gold/gems/sewer diggers for fair rates for food, tools and luxuries. Since the two societies don't really crave the same things or the same environment, separate and respectful of each other is the way to go.

I was thinking of the immediate future, you don't want to become the leader of a group that's on the brink of eating others and do nothing.

[Sigreid]

I was thinking of the immediate future, you don't want to become the leader of a group that's on the brink of eating others and do nothing.

For that I would be willing to commit a fairly sizable portion of my own wealth to bring in food stores to stave that off. Which should help increase their loyalty. But you're right that true food security only exists when you can grow your own. Depending on the mushrooms, that could be a trade item as well so they don't wind up having to eat the same damn thing every day. :smallbiggrin:

Really, the if you can teach them to stop being just hole diggers and get some real civilization going it would benefit everyone.

[Tetrasodium]

For that I would be willing to commit a fairly sizable portion of my own wealth to bring in food stores to stave that off. Which should help increase their loyalty. But you're right that true food security only exists when you can grow your own. Depending on the mushrooms, that could be a trade item as well so they don't wind up having to eat the same damn thing every day. :smallbiggrin:

Really, the if you can teach them to stop being just hole diggers and get some real civilization going it would benefit everyone.

My brother in law raises organic rabbits & grows shiitake mushrooms for a bunch of semilocal (to him) restaurants. One time a batch of mushrooms had gone bad & the place that bought them called to tell him. BiL was really apologetic & immediately offered to refund them; chef said that he was really hoping to just get a new batch & was even willing to send someone out to get them but was disappointed to find that he had sold all of that particular crop/harvest & would need to wait however long it would be for the next ones to be ready.

TL;DR, mushrooms can very much be trade goods. Exotic meats like cave lizards & such are likewise valuable things to the right buyers

[Asmotherion]

Start your own Cleptocracy, and tax them on percentage of their loot, in exchange for protection and legalising theft in your domain (so they won't ever have to face guards for stealing). 25% should be enough to keep them happy and not risk frauding their numbers, wile at the same time should make you about 4000 gold per day, which is not bad at all for city development. Create work spots by paying outsider builders for building you a ford, and when you're done, have your kobolds steal back your own money for you, so that the money remains within your society. Create amusement spots, and get the profit directly to your pocket. Slowly develop trading routes, that will have imunity from theft, and import goods for creating a self-sufficient society. Finally, betray the traders when the last of them comes and get back a portion of your money.

Ah, I love political maneuvering games.

[cobaltstarfire]

Because Tiamat is a cruel mistress that will treat them as slave and will probably use them as cannon fodder.

Heironus will respect them and protect them as long as they act good towards each others and the humans, while following the laws.

Aren't Heironeous and Bahamut also generally considered friends/allies. They are quite similar in their hatred of evil (and Lawfull Goodness) with Bahamut being a dragon god, and known for being compassionate, he'd be a perfect god to turn them towards given the way Kobolds love dragons.

Though I feel that how one treats these kobolds depends on how the DM runs kobolds, because as seen in this thread for some people kobolds are irredeemably evil and can never be considered trustworthy. If your DM also feels that same about kobolds, being kind to them is likely to backfire, and you might not even see it coming till it's too late given how crafty the little guys can be when run to their potential.

I hope the DM lets you run with kinder approaches...but I also find many of the cruel suggestions in this thread to be disturbing so I'm extremely biased either way.

[Tetrasodium]

I hope the DM lets you run with kinder approaches...but I also find many of the cruel suggestions in this thread to be disturbing so I'm extremely biased either way.

Why can't they be both?...

From Dragon 127, pg. 3
Tucker's kobolds

This month's editorial is about Tucker's kobolds. We get letters on occasion asking for advice on creating high-level AD&D® game adventures, and Tucker's kobolds seem to fit the bill.

Many high-level characters have little to do because they're not challenged. They yawn at tarrasques and must be forcibly kept awake when a lich appears. The DMs involved don't know what to do, so they stop dealing with the problem and the characters go into Character Limbo. Getting to high level is hard, but doing anything once you get there is worse.

One of the key problems in adventure design lies in creating opponents who can challenge powerful characters. Singular monsters like tarrasques and liches are easy to gang up on; the party can concentrate its firepower on the target until the target falls down dead and wiggles its little feet in the air. Designing monsters more powerful than a tarrasque is self-defeating; if the group kills your super-monster, what will you do next—send in its mother? That didn't work on Beowulf, and it probably won't work here.

Worse yet, singular supermonsters rarely have to think. They just use their trusty, predictable claw/claw/bite. This shouldn't be the measure of a campaign. These games fall apart because there's no challenge to them, no mental stimulation - no danger.

In all the games that I've seen, the worst, most horrible, most awful beyond-comparison opponents ever seen were often weaker than the characters who fought them. They were simply well-armed and intelligent beings who were played by the DM to be utterly ruthless and clever. Tucker's kobolds were like that.

Tucker ran an incredibly dangerous dungeon in the days I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C. This dungeon had corridors that changed all of your donkeys into huge flaming demons or dropped the whole party into acid baths, but the demons were wienies compared to the kobolds on Level One. These kobolds were just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that, but they were mean. When I say they were mean, I mean they were bad, Jim. They graduated magna *** laude from the Sauron Institute for the Criminally Vicious.

When I joined the gaming group, some of the PCs had already met Tucker's kobolds, and they were not eager to repeat the experience. The party leader went over the penciled map of the dungeon and tried to find ways to avoid the little critters, but it was not possible. The group resigned itself to making a run for it through Level One to get to the elevators, where we could go down to Level Ten and fight "okay" monsters like huge flaming demons.

It didn't work. The kobolds caught us about 60' into the dungeon and locked the door behind us and barred it. Then they set the corridor on fire, while we were still in it.

"NOOOOOO!!!" screamed the party leader. "It's THEM! Run!!!"

Thus encouraged, our party scrambled down a side passage, only to be ambushed by more kobolds firing with light crossbows through murder holes in the walls and ceilings. Kobolds with metal armor and shields flung Molotov cocktails at us from the other sides of huge piles of flaming debris, which other kobolds pushed ahead of their formation using long metal poles like broomsticks. There was no mistake about it. These kobolds were bad.

We turned to our group leader for advice.

"AAAAAAGH!!!" he cried, hands clasped over his face to shut out the tactical situation.

We abandoned most of our carried items and donkeys to speed our flight toward the elevators, but we were cut off by kobold snipers who could split-move and fire, ducking back behind stones and corners after launching steel-tipped bolts and arrows, javelins, hand axes, and more flaming oil bottles. We ran into an unexplored section of Level One, taking damage all the time. It was then we discovered that these kobolds had honeycombed the first level with small tunnels to speed their movements. Kobold commandos were everywhere. All of our hirelings died. Most of our henchmen followed. We were next.

I recall we had a 12th-level magic user with us, and we asked him to throw a spell or something. "Blast 'em!" we yelled as we ran. "Fireball 'em! Get those little @#+$%*&!!"

"What, in these narrow corridors? " he yelled back. "You want I should burn us all up instead of them?"

Our panicked flight suddenly took us to a dead-end corridor, where a giant air shaft dropped straight down into unspeakable darkness, far past Level Ten. Here we hastily pounded spikes into the floors and walls, flung ropes over the ledge, and climbed straight down into that unspeakable darkness, because anything we met down there was sure to be better than those kobolds.

We escaped, met some huge flaming demons on Level Ten, and even managed to kill one after about an hour of combat and the lives of half the group. We felt pretty good — but the group leader could not be cheered up.

"We still have to go out the way we came in," he said as he gloomily prepared to divide up the treasure.

Tucker's kobolds were the worst things we could imagine. They ate all our donkeys and took our treasure and did everything they could to make us miserable, but they had style and brains and tenacity and courage. We respected them and loved them, sort of, because they were never boring.

If kobolds could do this to a group of PCs from 6th to 12th level, picture what a few orcs and some low level NPCs could do to a 12th-16th level group, or a gang of mid-level NPCs and monsters to groups of up to 20th level. Then give it a try. Sometimes, it's the little things—used well—that count.

Roger E. Moore
Make the first group of fools to invade your castle rue the day.... Nut I agree, it will depend on your GM.

[Sigreid]

Aren't Heironeous and Bahamut also generally considered friends/allies. They are quite similar in their hatred of evil (and Lawfull Goodness) with Bahamut being a dragon god, and known for being compassionate, he'd be a perfect god to turn them towards given the way Kobolds love dragons.

Though I feel that how one treats these kobolds depends on how the DM runs kobolds, because as seen in this thread for some people kobolds are irredeemably evil and can never be considered trustworthy. If your DM also feels that same about kobolds, being kind to them is likely to backfire, and you might not even see it coming till it's too late given how crafty the little guys can be when run to their potential.

I hope the DM lets you run with kinder approaches...but I also find many of the cruel suggestions in this thread to be disturbing so I'm extremely biased either way.

You should be prepared for the possibility that you will have to kill them, but the write up in Volo's Guide strongly suggests that they aren't interested in looking for trouble, as a species.

[Spamotron]

It seems to me that this could be a significant playtime sink.

The very first thing you should do is have an OOC discussion with the DM and other players about how on board they are with sessions devoted to developing the kobolds and how much campaign time they feel comfortable devoting to it.

None of your plans will matter if the other players feel you are hogging too much spotlight time on a side thing that doesn't progress the campaign.

[Lawful Good]

First of all, if they act up, hey, 100k of free XP.



Expend their lives in a holy war against your biggest opponent. This will have the benefit of reducing the threat that they will eventually pose. They are evil and a leopard doesn't change it's spots.

Be aware of any kobolds that survive and possibly gain some levels.

Especially orphans. Orphan hero vs. tyrant never works out.


The gnome god, Garl Glittergold, tricked and trapped Kurtulmak, the kobold god, underground. The kobolds have been waging a mostly unsuccessful gnome-genocide ever since.

For the record, I am 100% in favor of gnomicide.

It seems to me that this could be a significant playtime sink.

The very first thing you should do is have an OOC discussion with the DM and other players about how on board they are with sessions devoted to developing the kobolds and how much campaign time they feel comfortable devoting to it.

None of your plans will matter if the other players feel you are hogging too much spotlight time on a side thing that doesn't progress the campaign.

You and your rational ideas :smalltongue:


This thread really makes me want a remake of "Zootopia" but with kobolds.

[Hawkstar]

Start your own Cleptocracy, and tax them on percentage of their loot, in exchange for protection and legalising theft in your domain (so they won't ever have to face guards for stealing). 25% should be enough to keep them happy and not risk frauding their numbers, wile at the same time should make you about 4000 gold per day, which is not bad at all for city development. Create work spots by paying outsider builders for building you a ford, and when you're done, have your kobolds steal back your own money for you, so that the money remains within your society. Create amusement spots, and get the profit directly to your pocket. Slowly develop trading routes, that will have imunity from theft, and import goods for creating a self-sufficient society. Finally, betray the traders when the last of them comes and get back a portion of your money.

Ah, I love political maneuvering games.So... under this, "Theft is Taxation"?

[Asmotherion]

So... under this, "Theft is Taxation"?

Prety much, yeah. They're Kobolds, so theft is second nature to them. Instead of forbidding it, tax it, so they will feel a relativelly safe work environment, instead of being presured by authority (which would create a revolution). Even reward by ranking Loots, Thief of the Year, and lower tax rates for loots of significant amount. That said, encourage out-of society theft, by taxing in-society theft higher, like 75%. The only really punishable acts would be in-comunity murder for personal gain (so, excluding duels and self-defance) and Tax-Avoidance. It's a dragon-oriented society, so be the Dragon that leads those Dragon-Worshipers. And Dragons love Hoarding things, especially gifts, as they are a sign of respect. :)

[KorvinStarmast]

to quote Volo's HG Wells called, he's asking Volo to pay for the obvious rip off of The Time Machine. (Morlocks).

Educate them; teach them the ways of your God,
Give them purpose and a direction. Train them to be the best they can, in the service of your God's tenets. Do not abuse them, that way leads to an uprising that you'll have to put down. Good ideas.

You are LG respect them, or you may fall.
The OP's a cleric, not a paladin.

Set them up making things and mining and building, set up a commune where they share in the products of the town.
And thus begins the class warfare/civil strife between the humans and the Kobolds ... the road to hell is paved with the best of intentions.

A smart kobold becomes PunPun at some point. Which is why my original answer is the way to go. :smallbiggrin: (See page 1)

Do nothing and eventually adventurers will come to your doorstep trying to kill you because they are on a holy quest. :smalltongue: Yes they will, since you are a LG BBEG ... now that the shoe's on the other foot, I think it would make for some great role play!
I'm thinking if you get access to True Polymorph and turn 1, just one into a silver dragon they might worship you forever. He's a cleric, not a wizard. If OP is of Arcane domain, however, that might work and it would be AWESOME!

I am a lv 11 War cleric.
Oh well, sorry.

[Hawkstar]

The OP's a cleric, not a paladin.
He's a Cleric of THE Lawful Good God. That's even more restrictive than a paladin.

[jaappleton]

......Know what?

Find a way to commit genocide. Total, complete genocide of all 4,000 Kobolds. All of them.

Just hear me out.

Find a way where, in one fell swoop, you can kill all of them. Whether its getting them all to jump into acid or lava, or cause the castle to collapse into itself, just some way to kill every single one in one move.

Now.... how much XP did you just get?

Sure, your Deity has shunned you and cast you out because of this. But there's gotta be a bunch of other Deities who will gladly embrace you for this. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

He's a Cleric of THE Lawful Good God. That's even more restrictive than a paladin. I am not sure what game you are playing, but when someone uses "fall" in D&D that is typically something that happens to paladins.

I've played a lot of clerics over the years(going back to the early 80's). Fall isn't typically what happens to a cleric, but I've seen both "crisis of faith" and "you just lost the ability to use "X" spells as a consequence of the deity being displeased with her servant ...

If you go back up a few lines, you'll note that I support/promote proselytizing to or converting the kobolds. It's what a cleric of that God would do. Also great role playing opportunity!

[Cybren]

......Know what?

Find a way to commit genocide. Total, complete genocide of all 4,000 Kobolds. All of them.

Just hear me out.

Find a way where, in one fell swoop, you can kill all of them. Whether its getting them all to jump into acid or lava, or cause the castle to collapse into itself, just some way to kill every single one in one move.

Now.... how much XP did you just get?

Sure, your Deity has shunned you and cast you out because of this. But there's gotta be a bunch of other Deities who will gladly embrace you for this. :smallbiggrin:

XP is only awarded for overcoming a challenge, and not "the horrific ethical and logistical challenge of killing 4000 people at once". Else, the time I cast a sleep spell and caused an argument between the DM and another player that ended a campaign should mean my level 4 wizard is infinity level for destroying an entire multiverse

[jaappleton]

XP is only awarded for overcoming a challenge, and not "the horrific ethical and logistical challenge of killing 4000 people at once". Else, the time I cast a sleep spell and caused an argument between the DM and another player that ended a campaign should mean my level 4 wizard is infinity level for destroying an entire multiverse

I mean, he would cause their deaths. I'd award the XP to him.

[Tetrasodium]

HG Wells called, he's asking Volo to pay for the obvious rip off of The Time Machine. (Morlocks).

actually I think it's a reference to Eberron where both orcs & hobgoblins are.... different than the norm & having such things noted helps fend off some of the absurd "but X is ab evil race, they can't be...".

[Bahamut7]

Tucker's Kobolds should sell the point of educating and training them moreso. Your kobolds could become the Peacekeepers of your world.