Harder-hitting Monks

[djreynolds]

Thanks Cybren,

A monk can declare at the beginning of their attack, to add their wisdom modifier in addition to all of the their damage with all attacks, but at the expense of their defense. The monk for the rest of the turn, loses their wisdom modifier to their AC.

They can still use their bonus actions for step of the wind of patient defense or FOB.

I like this one as well,

So, I'd make an alternate to flurry of blows; [Synonym for strong or hard] [Synonym for Strike]: Spend a bonus action and a ki point and you can make an unarmed strike against an enemy, and all your attacks (that one included) this turn deal extra damage equal to your strength modifier.

[Cybren]

It might be how you phrased it but it seems a bit complex/wordy. Also, i had to read the title twice to realize you didn't mean like, a shorter companion that can fly, but the actual technique of launching yourself in the air to kick someone

There's a few ways to parse a flying side kick. One would just be a standard use of the Charger feat, but with unarmed attacks. That seems kinda boring.

Another would be to play it as the technique would work in real life. Which is basically just a shove. You aren't doing that much damage, since you're in the air. It might be reasonable to give a monk that had used Step On The Wind advantage on their athletics context to shove, or let them use wisdom instead of strength, or deal damage equal to some value, like wisdom/strength/proficiency bonus/jump distance/whatever.

Another would be to invent a new technique monks can use but i'm not sure what you'd make it look like.

[djreynolds]

Cybren, I'm looking for a way to allow monks to basically use something akin to GWM but with a draw back.

I like the idea of reckless attacking with a monk.

I like the idea of big powerful strikes, but you lose out on defense

I thought if you could use your wisdom in place of your strength score but lose out on it for defense.

Cybren, I also apologize, I'm tired.... any ideas

[Cybren]

I've thought about Strength Monks for a while. In my current (disintegrating) group one of the players is a half-orc monk that prioritized strength over dex. But she also rolled well enough that her stats are all around pretty good. I'd probably make Strong Monks their own subclass.

I don't know that tying it to the strength score is ideal here. It would be odd to have an attack you can use situationally dependent on an ability score none of your other class features care about. I could see (and have thought about) a Strong Monk subclass, or an Alternate Monk, that trades unarmored defense for light+medium armor proficiency + the ability to still use monk class features while in armor provided you are attacking with strength, but trying to incorporate your actual strength score into a power analagous to the -5/+10 one seems weird.

So, I'd make an alternate to flurry of blows; [Synonym for strong or hard] [Synonym for Strike]: Spend a bonus action and a ki point and you can make an unarmed strike against an enemy, and all your attacks (that one included) this turn deal extra damage equal to your strength modifier.

Your tradeoff for offense over defense still exists because you aren't choosing to use patient defense or step on the wind this turn. You still feel like it's "harder strikes" and not just "better strikes" because it's tied to your strength score.

[djreynolds]

I've thought about Strength Monks for a while. In my current (disintegrating) group one of the players is a half-orc monk that prioritized strength over dex. But she also rolled well enough that her stats are all around pretty good. I'd probably make Strong Monks their own subclass.

I don't know that tying it to the strength score is ideal here. It would be odd to have an attack you can use situationally dependent on an ability score none of your other class features care about. I could see (and have thought about) a Strong Monk subclass, or an Alternate Monk, that trades unarmored defense for light+medium armor proficiency + the ability to still use monk class features while in armor provided you are attacking with strength, but trying to incorporate your actual strength score into a power analagous to the -5/+10 one seems weird.

So, I'd make an alternate to flurry of blows; [Synonym for strong or hard] [Synonym for Strike]: Spend a bonus action and a ki point and you can make an unarmed strike against an enemy, and all your attacks (that one included) this turn deal extra damage equal to your strength modifier.

Your tradeoff for offense over defense still exists because you aren't choosing to use patient defense or step on the wind this turn. You still feel like it's "harder strikes" and not just "better strikes" because it's tied to your strength score.

That's all cool idea

The only reason this came to me, is the new hexblade has basically been given a cooler shillelagh.

The monk class wants to be great... it is just missing something.

Why can a barbarian pummel someone with GWM/reckless attack and great axe and monk cannot do this till 17th level?

I have seen dudes cleaning people out with a single kick or punch

How about a monk gets their own reckless attack, they get their wisdom modifier added to all their damage that turn but lose it on AC for that turn?

This way you still have to pump wisdom, in order to get this extra damage

[Cespenar]

Why not add Battlemaster 3 or Barbarian 1-2 to your Monk?

Or why not play those two classes with Tavern Brawler?

[Giant2005]

Keep in mind how easily that downside could be removed. If I were playing in a game like that, I would dip into some other class to get my AC so I could safely ignore the Wis penalty.

[djreynolds]

You could use reckless attack and rage, but it requires strength.

So either you have a monk with good str and dex and con for armor class but a lower wisdom

Or you have a monk with good str and dex and wisdom for AC, but a lower con score

The hexblade just got shillelagh for every weapon almost but greatswords and bows and other two-handed weapons, the still have lifedrinker albeit 12th level

I figure the option isn't as powerful because you are losing wisdom tied to AC in favor of straight up damage.. but you still have a bonus action in there to disengage or dodge... so if you get greedy your AC is at the most a 15 with a 20 in dex. But each attack is adding up to +5 with the wisdom bonus added in.

I just want something a little more for monk.

I'm not a fan of kensai, nor am I fan of having to pick a dip of whatever for hex or hunter's mark or divine favor or grabbing magic initiate for an extra 1d4/1d6

But I think players might like this form of added damage and it comes with a cost in terms of AC... if you save your BA for patient defense's dodge it should even out. But if you stay in there for FOB, you have a higher likely hood of taking some serious punishment

[djreynolds]

Keep in mind how easily that downside could be removed. If I were playing in a game like that, I would dip into some other class to get my AC so I could safely ignore the Wis penalty.


Sorry for the double post

Like a dip of barbarian for his unarmored defense, but you still need some wisdom for the damage bonus

[Giant2005]

Sorry for the double post

Like a dip of barbarian for his unarmored defense, but you still need some wisdom for the damage bonus

I was thinking more like Draconic Sorcerer for the slightly reduced MADness (or Even Mage Armor via Magic Initiate if you want to reduce that MADness further and can live with only getting the AC bonus for 8 hours a day).
You could go the other way too though - a Cleric could make good use of dipping Monk. Even if the Wis damage bonus only applied to unarmed attacks, the heavily armored Cleric could still make good use of it via FoB.

EDIT: I prefer Monks doing lots of little hits rather than the big hits of the other classes. What if you changed FoB to give you one extra attack for the Ki point but not use your bonus action? When combined with the bonus action attack from Martial Arts it would basically be the same, except that the ability could be used as many times in a round as the Monk has Ki points to spend. The daily damage would be the same (assuming the Monk goes through all of his Ki each short rest) but the Monk could pull off bigger novas if desired.

[djreynolds]

I was thinking more like Draconic Sorcerer for the slightly reduced MADness.
You could go the other way too though - a Cleric could make good use of dipping Monk. Even if the Wis damage bonus only applied to unarmed attacks, the heavily armored Cleric could still make good use of it via FoB.

Genius, OMG, how long have you been holding onto this?!

Dragon monk archetype

Your unarmed strike do that dragon's damage

[BW022]

I'm not a big fan of minor AC and attack adjustments -- especially those which vary. One of the good things 5E did was to get rid of minor conditional bonuses. Leads to more declaring of actions, separate attack entries, etc.

The wording is also troubling "until the end of your turn" is pointless. It should be "until the beginning of your next turn" since enemies almost never attack during your turn -- baring opportunity attacks. Even this gets into cases where you draw opportunity attacks from moving, then declare the feat and attack in order to not take the AC penalty on the opportunity attack. Things like this lead to time consuming cheesiness. "all attacks" is also troublesome in that a cleric, monk, druid, ranger, etc. could take a level of monk for a free +3 to damage.

Finally, as others have said, pretty easy to get AC anyway -- multi-class, magic initiate feat and/or just have someone cast mage armor on you. In which case, it is a free +3 to all damage.

[djreynolds]

BW022, I hear ya. I'm just spit balling here.

I hate telling players to look into multiclassing.

I do definitely understand that it should be till the end of the next turn, that's fair.

Aside from multiclassing do you have any ideas or even wants out of the monk class?

I just got done watching a kickboxing movie, and aside from quivering palm at 17th level, I want a big kick or punch out of the monk.

It could be short rest dependent and even cost KI, "Finish Him", type of move.

The monk has great consistent damage, but I want some oomph earlier than 17th level.

The hex blade is a nice turn for the warlock class, and though I like the effort out of kensai, it has some flaws.

I want a big kick, a signature move. Every martial artist has one.

[jitzul]

Nope if there is anything I have learned about 5e monks it's that they are not meant to do good damage. They are strikers that are meant to "absolutely wreck" enemy backlines with hit and run tactics. Monks are absolute ultimate gods when it comes to being a controller class. At least that is what I see being said almost anytime a monk discussion happens on a d&d forum.

If you want to be a "monk" while doing actual good damage. You best bet is to play a barbarian that is fluffed as a Sōhei.

[retaliation08]

What about something similar to the new HexBlade curse?

Spend ki to add proficiency bonus to damage? Spend ki to increase Crit range? Or maybe just do both and make it a short rest ability? Call it Insightful Blows or something like that.

Seems like it would be part of a separate subclass, but in addition to gaining reckless attack it could be pretty solid. Slightly more damage than rage bonus damage. The threat range has nice synergy with reckless attack

[Fishyninja]

One of the other things is that (and correct me if I am wrong), but when you look at feats associated with the Monk, the only one that really auto increases potential damage output its PAM or Spear Mastery. However they are both outclassed by the natural progression of the Martial Die.

I mean don't get me wrong they have other uses but solely for damage I cant really think of others (maybe apart from Martial Superiority).

[retaliation08]

One of the other things is that (and correct me if I am wrong), but when you look at feats associated with the Monk, the only one that really auto increases potential damage output its PAM or Spear Mastery. However they are both outclassed by the natural progression of the Martial Die.

I mean don't get me wrong they have other uses but solely for damage I cant really think of others (maybe apart from Martial Superiority).

Sharpshooter with darts (or daggers). Damage is equivalent to unarmed strikes with martial arts. You can do a sharpshooter attack, move, and still use FoB.

Actually, now I want to make a Kobold Monk with sharpshooter. Pack tactics helps to land the sharpshooter attacks. Plus, groveling to distract foes and then jumping up to whack them with open hand stuff sounds really fun.

[Mongobear]

How about an updated version of Decisive Strike from 3.5e PHB2?

Basically, you traded Flurry of Blows for Decisive Strike. Instead of making a bunch of normal damage strikes, you made a single(eventually two) attacks which dealt double damage, effectively auto-crit, but it could still crit as well if you Nat20'd the attack roll.

So for 5e, maybe a Strength based archetype, Closed Fist? Seems to fit since there is an Open Hand style already, which could focus on Strength based damage or just a purely offensive style of combat, and they get a replacement for to FoB, instead of Bonus Action for 2 extra attacks, they can use a Bonus Action to trigger Decisive Strike, there after, your attacks for the round deal double your Martial Arts damage on a successful hit.

[djreynolds]

I want fist of the north star

I want sonic boom

etc

I want a big strike, that doesn't come at 17th level

I want a big strike

I don't want daggers, or magic clubs.... I want some bigger strikes, or even combos

[Giant2005]

I just got done watching a kickboxing movie, and aside from quivering palm at 17th level, I want a big kick or punch out of the monk.

It could be short rest dependent and even cost KI, "Finish Him", type of move.

The monk has great consistent damage, but I want some oomph earlier than 17th level.

The hex blade is a nice turn for the warlock class, and though I like the effort out of kensai, it has some flaws.

I want a big kick, a signature move. Every martial artist has one.

If that is all you want, I can't see any harm in giving the Monk the ability to combine all of their attacks into a single, big hit. A level 5 Monk using FoB would have 4 attacks of something like 1d6+3. With this rule they could trade them all for one, big signature move of 4d6+12 on any given turn.

EDIT: That ability would make things like the Help Action or True Strike more powerful, but I don't really see any harm in that.

[djreynolds]

If that is all you want, I can't see any harm in giving the Monk the ability to combine all of their attacks into a single, big hit. A level 5 Monk using FoB would have 4 attacks of something like 1d6+3. With this rule they could trade them all for one, big signature move of 4d6+12 on any given turn.

EDIT: That ability would make things like the Help Action or True Strike more powerful, but I don't really see any harm in that.

That's good.

I'm not out to change the class. Any monk can grab a maul and GWM, may not be the most optimized monk, but you can do it.

Maybe if a monk was hidden or has advantage, he could spring out of the shadows and deliver a powerful flying kick or jumping uppercut

I know monks like rangers usually have good stealth scores, but lack the real punch of a rogue. They are skirmishers, but idea of being able to fold all attacks into one signature move I like that.

Perhaps we could even combine this with idea of adding in the strength modifier to damage as well, its unfortunate that a high strength and dex stats do not combine in this installment.

[Fishyninja]

Sharpshooter with darts (or daggers). Damage is equivalent to unarmed strikes with martial arts. You can do a sharpshooter attack, move, and still use FoB.
Of course, I forget that it applies to all ranged attacks............Could you (in theory) throw a Greatsword?


Perhaps we could even combine this with idea of adding in the strength modifier to damage as well, its unfortunate that a high strength and dex stats do not combine in this installment.
Interesting concept, you are essentially turning your martial ability into a +X ability.
However I feel that this could be a little overpowered based on how the stats are rolled and distributed.

For example My monk started with Wis and Dex on 16. If the player was not too worried about their Wis Save DC they could switich their strength to 16 and if you are combining those two stats then your martial die would start at 1d4+6 and trhough natural progression by level level 12th your martial die would be 1d8+10 and the damage die would jsut increase.

[Giant2005]

Perhaps we could even combine this with idea of adding in the strength modifier to damage as well, its unfortunate that a high strength and dex stats do not combine in this installment.

I'd like to see some kind of rule that allowed Str and Dex stacking with Finesse weapons. It would comparatively de-power feats, empower medium armor users, and make the Fighter's extra ASIs more useful - three things I'd like to see happen.
You can't just combine them and expect the game to not break though. Something a little more limited like you gain StrMod + DexMod - the difference between the two, as long as the sum is larger than either DexMod or StrMod.

[Deleted]

Thanks Cybren,

A monk can declare at the beginning of their attack, to add their wisdom modifier in addition to all of the their damage with all attacks, but at the expense of their defense. The monk for the rest of the turn, loses their wisdom modifier to their AC.

They can still use their bonus actions for step of the wind of patient defense or FOB.

I like this one as well,

So, I'd make an alternate to flurry of blows; [Synonym for strong or hard] [Synonym for Strike]: Spend a bonus action and a ki point and you can make an unarmed strike against an enemy, and all your attacks (that one included) this turn deal extra damage equal to your strength modifier.

+Wis Dmg/-Wis AC...

Because of how AC and Armor works in 5e, you could put your monk in armor and still give up Wis to AC, even though your aren't currently benefiting from Wis to AC.

I would tie any bonus damage with Step of the Wind. This boost of speed allows you to increase the damage your strikes do but takes away FoB. This also stops the monk from using Patient Defense to boost their defense while they are using a feature that is meant to lower their defense.

It's thematic, gives a reason to use Step of the Wind for more than just movement, and it could combo well. Get surrounded? FoB. Nect round Step of the Wind (disengage) by drop kicking a creature and launching yourself away from the enemies (bonus damage). If any keep up with you, you are easier to hit.