A BBEG optimized around cursing the PC?

[Gweed]

Hello all!

I am looking for help with an idea that I have, but have no idea how to implement it.

I did a search and I haven't found anything that centers on curses.

I am not even concerned if the curse actually kills the party, it just is nasty and a pain in the ass.

Any suggestions?

[daremetoidareyo]

A curser is a better lieutenant than BBEG. Bad guys need to land kill shots to be threatening, so no matter what, you need at least one other combatant.

[Red Fel]

Hello all!

I am looking for help with an idea that I have,

And stop.

In order for us to help you, you have to tell us what you're actually asking for. Right now, we know that you have an idea, it involves a BBEG and curses, and that's it.

Imagine for a moment that I asked for help in the following way:

Hey, everyone, I need some help with this idea I have, but I don't know enough about spears. I could use your advice, thanks!
That's barely even a question. Does it involve damage? Combat tricks? Plot devices? Classes or abilities? No idea.

Try asking again, but this time, actually describe the idea you have, and the kind of advice for which you're looking. Then we can help you flesh it out, perhaps.

[TheCorsairMalac]

Hello all!

I am looking for help with an idea that I have, but have no idea how to implement it.

I did a search and I haven't found anything that centers on curses.

I am not even concerned if the curse actually kills the party, it just is nasty and a pain in the ass.

Any suggestions?

A highly mobile cleric with Spring Attack who casts Bestow Curse on everyone repeatedly while they face his minions. The 50% chance of inaction is particularly frustrating.

[Gweed]

I left the question open ended on purpose. I am just looking for ideas centered around cursing.



That's barely even a question. Does it involve damage? Combat tricks? Plot devices? Classes or abilities? No idea.

Does it involve damage - I don't care
Combat tricks - I don't care
Plot devices - Haven't even started writing the campaign yet
Classes or abilities - Any or all



Try asking again, but this time, actually describe the idea you have, and the kind of advice for which you're looking. Then we can help you flesh it out, perhaps.

I didn't realize there was a "How to ask a question properly" tutorial that I missed. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.

I already described the idea I have. I want to create a BBEG that uses curses. That is my entire idea.
I have searched both on GiTP and Google for a Curse Handbook, or builds centered around cursing and I have found very little. I have looked at the curse spells in the PHB and they are underwhelming.

I just thought it was a fun idea.

[Gweed]

A highly mobile cleric with Spring Attack who casts Bestow Curse on everyone repeatedly while they face his minions. The 50% chance of inaction is particularly frustrating.

I like this. Combine some way to stay mobile with Bestow Curse and dance around the battlefield just messing with the party!

Thanks!

[Eldariel]

A highly mobile cleric with Spring Attack who casts Bestow Curse on everyone repeatedly while they face his minions. The 50% chance of inaction is particularly frustrating.

Bestow Curse makes sense for someone trying to curse people but what's the Spring Attack for? I don't see the benefit of moving and attacking an enemy once if you wanted to curse them. Sadly spells cannot be cast with Spring Attack. If you want to move, cast and move, flight (from e.g. Travel domain) + Flyby Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#flybyAttack) would work as would the rather eerie and fitting Spectral Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spectralHand.htm) (available to Divine Magician [Complete Mage] Clerics as well as through Spell-domain [Spell Compendium]). You can also just gain some ability to take a second move action in the turn (such as Travel Devotion [Complete Champion] which allows moving as a swift action for 1 minute at a time; can be reused by burning Turn/Rebuke Undead attempts). You could also use Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine] + Reach Spell [Complete Divine] or the "Divine Reach"-ability of Hierophant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) or something similar. For higher level cursing, there's "Greater Bestow Curse" in Spell Compendium, which requires a caster level 17 Remove Curse or Miracle/Wish to get rid of.

For combat use, there's always Curse of Ill Fortune [Spell Compendium] and the like. Baleful Polymorph is a staple far as curses go and available in Gluttony/Limbo-domains as well as through Greater Anyspell from Spell-domain. For a higher level alternative, Polymorph Any Object (Trickery-domain, Renewal-domain [Spell Compendium] among others) works. And of course, things like Flesh to Stone work equally well. But when I think of cursing, I think there should be traps and curses already in place and some undead and so on. Many undead are actually quite adept at this, Mummy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm) being the first association for me. Then spells like Blindness/Deafness, Geas/Quest and so on seem really appropriate.


Frankly, curses, shapechanging, disease, poisons, and in general ability damage/drain/negative levels feel appropriate. Basically any long-term debuff that makes life difficult and are somewhat difficult to remove should be game. Even vile damage. So knock yourself out. Pick appropriate domains and go to town.

EDIT: For this type of a BBEG, I really recommend trying to have them operate from a distance and try to weaken the party before engaging directly. That's where their shtick shines after all. And using various bruisers and direct attackers (undead seem particularly appropriate - they're all essentially "cursed" after all) to capitalize on the weakened PCs.

[Flickerdart]

A curse is just a debuff with a pretty name. Debuffing is a great strategy, but I would never use it against the PCs. Combat turns in D&D take so long that denying someone even one round means that they sit and do nothing for 10, 20, 30 minutes. Effects like confusion make things even worse, because now the PCs has to attack the other PCs, and that can cause tensions within the group.

Use debuffs to take out PCs' cohorts and minions, but give the actual player characters a sporting fight.

[Stealth Marmot]

I didn't realize there was a "How to ask a question properly" tutorial that I missed. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.


I work in IT and let me tell you, there is nothing more frustrating than dealing with people asking questions or describing problems that are intensely vague. When someone says something along the lines of "My computer won't work, what can we do to fix it?" it strains my communication abilities to not sound condescending when asking them the follow-up questions that actually get me the information I need. I literally have to say "What actually happens? Take me through it step by step." I can sense the offense in people's tones when I ask that question but nonetheless, I have to because I can't fix a problem that is described so vaguely or poorly.

If you don't communicate properly what you are looking for or what your intentions are, don't be mad when someone flat out tells you to be more clear and specific. Especially since unlike me at my IT job, no one here is getting paid to be polite.

[Eldariel]

A curse is just a debuff with a pretty name. Debuffing is a great strategy, but I would never use it against the PCs. Combat turns in D&D take so long that denying someone even one round means that they sit and do nothing for 10, 20, 30 minutes. Effects like confusion make things even worse, because now the PCs has to attack the other PCs, and that can cause tensions within the group.

Use debuffs to take out PCs' cohorts and minions, but give the actual player characters a sporting fight.

Most debuffs don't steal turns though and PCs can counteract debuffs on one another. Frankly, I think you should use debuffs especially against PCs. Save-or-dies, save-or-lose-actions, instant death charges, etc. tend to be way less fun - sitting out for the rest of the session after death and lack of Revivify/Last Breath is kinda meh. Debuffs let the PCs keep playing while still meaningfully hampering them.

[Gweed]

I work in IT and let me tell you, there is nothing more frustrating than dealing with people asking questions or describing problems that are intensely vague. When someone says something along the lines of "My computer won't work, what can we do to fix it?" it strains my communication abilities to not sound condescending when asking them the follow-up questions that actually get me the information I need. I literally have to say "What actually happens? Take me through it step by step." I can sense the offense in people's tones when I ask that question but nonetheless, I have to because I can't fix a problem that is described so vaguely or poorly.

If you don't communicate properly what you are looking for or what your intentions are, don't be mad when someone flat out tells you to be more clear and specific. Especially since unlike me at my IT job, no one here is getting paid to be polite.

I also work in IT, I worked Help Desk in my youth. I get what you are saying.

Conversely, no one is getting paid to be a **** either. There is a difference between asking someone to be clear and specific, and being condescending and rude.

Plenty of other people understood the question and answered it.

[Manyasone]

Not going for the long answer most people do here... Just going to say 'Harbinger...'

[OldTrees1]

I left the question open ended on purpose. I am just looking for ideas centered around cursing.

It being so open ended makes people more hesitant to post ideas due to a concern that the ideas will be off topic. I almost didn't post the following idea. Additionally neither of the previous posters that tried to help you were being rude, although it is lamentable that was unclear.

Unseelie Fey(Dragon Compendium) is a CR +0 template that can grant Winter Chill.
Winter Chill (Su): An unseelie fey with winter chill has a presence that disquiets nonfey. The more beautiful the creature is, the more uncomfortable other beings feel. Living, nonfey creatures within 5 feet of her feel uneasy and suffer a morale penalty on saves equal to the unseelie fey's Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Polymorph Any Object is an 8th level spell that can permanently turn one of the PCs into an Unseelie Fey(Unusable Wings, No Eyes but Blindsight 30ft, Winter Chill).

Chain Spell Bestow Curse(50%: Do nothing) can hit the entire party & their allies

[Gweed]

It being so open ended makes people more hesitant to post ideas due to a concern that the ideas will be off topic.

That was the exact opposite of my intent. I left it open ended so people wouldn't be pigeonholed into a specific line of thinking.


I almost didn't post the following idea. Additionally neither of the previous posters that tried to help you were being rude, although it is lamentable that was unclear.

I realize Red Fel is royalty around here, so he gets a lot of leeway, but his post seemed to be designed to intentionally condescend. I could rewrite that 100 different ways that would not give the impression of rudeness. I didn't think Stealth Marmot was being rude.


Unseelie Fey(Dragon Compendium) is a CR +0 template that can grant Winter Chill.
Winter Chill (Su): An unseelie fey with winter chill has a presence that disquiets nonfey. The more beautiful the creature is, the more uncomfortable other beings feel. Living, nonfey creatures within 5 feet of her feel uneasy and suffer a morale penalty on saves equal to the unseelie fey's Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Polymorph Any Object is an 8th level spell that can permanently turn one of the PCs into an Unseelie Fey(Unusable Wings, No Eyes but Blindsight 30ft, Winter Chill).

Chain Spell Bestow Curse(50%: Do nothing) can hit the entire party & their allies

Thank you for this. This is an awesome idea. I love the idea of using PaO in this manner.

[OldTrees1]

That was the exact opposite of my intent. I left it open ended so people wouldn't be pigeonholed into a specific line of thinking.

We recognize that it is the exact opposite of your intent, hence why 3 posters were moved to try to help when we noticed the unintended effect.

Obviously you don't want to pigeonhole it, but people expect there to be some restrictions. So saying "there are no restrictions" or not saying anything is often socially interpreted as a signal of "there are unmentioned restrictions".



Another idea:

What would your players do if one of their PCs acquired the Ghoul template(Gravetouched Ghoul from Libris Mortis) with the LA waived? Would they treat the Ghoul as the old PC? How would they handle the social implications of both society's reaction & the hunger rules(Libris Mortis)?

[King539]

If you're fine with porting PF, there's always the Witch...

[Red Fel]

I didn't realize there was a "How to ask a question properly" tutorial that I missed. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.


Conversely, no one is getting paid to be a **** either. There is a difference between asking someone to be clear and specific, and being condescending and rude.

Plenty of other people understood the question and answered it.


I realize Red Fel is royalty around here, so he gets a lot of leeway, but his post seemed to be designed to intentionally condescend. I could rewrite that 100 different ways that would not give the impression of rudeness. I didn't think Stealth Marmot was being rude.

I almost didn't reply to this thread. I saw that you were offended, saw your response, and decided that nothing would come of my further involvement. But you wanted to drag my name out, so let's get this one done.

First: Nobody is giving me "leeway" for being "royalty." I, like others posting in the thread, was trying to offer assistance. If anything, "plenty of other people" understood that I was trying to offer assistance.

Second: If you feel I've been harsh with you, tell me so. Don't throw out these passive-aggressive comments. Contact me via PMs. That's what they're there for. I posted to try to offer help. Yes, it was in my own particular idiom. Yes, it was brusque. I won't apologize for that, because frankly, people posting frustratingly vague requests is a big pet peeve of mine. But I wasn't trying to be condescending; I was trying to be direct.

Other people are better than I am at throwing out random suggestions. That's not how I work. I can't offer assistance unless you tell me what it is you want. I appreciate that you left it open-ended in hopes that you'd get a breadth of responses; please appreciate that I, and I'm not certain that I'm alone in this, respond better to specific queries than general ones. I was posting in hopes of helping you narrow your expectations; your response, that you left it open-ended on purpose, explains that you didn't need that help. Unfortunately, that wasn't in your OP. I was operating on incomplete information; I had assumed, apparently wrongly, that you needed some ideas to narrow your focus. I was proceeding under that assumption.

Third: Don't go badmouthing me. I left the thread. No ovation, no pronouncement, I quietly left. You brought me back with your comments. Please, in the future, don't drag out my name and talk about me unless you want me to respond.

[mistermysterio]

is this 3.5 or pathfinder?

open to third party?

[WhamBamSam]

Midgard Dwarves haven't been mentioned yet. They're native Outsiders from Frostburn (somewhere around 8HD as I recall) with a (Su) ability to curse a creature that has wronged them in some way from any distance. An Outsider can use Polymorph/Metamorphosis+Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer to gain this power.

[Rhyltran]

Are we restricted to just curses or debuffs in general? Because that would change up quite a bit of the advice that we can give. If you build a BBEG on debuffing and debilitating the party there's a lot more assistance we can offer.

[Flickerdart]

Most debuffs don't steal turns though and PCs can counteract debuffs on one another.
Sure, I'm mostly referring to the "lost 50% of actions" part of bestow curse and similar effects, which are difficult to remove and fairly crippling




Frankly, I think you should use debuffs especially against PCs. Save-or-dies, save-or-lose-actions, instant death charges, etc. tend to be way less fun - sitting out for the rest of the session after death and lack of Revivify/Last Breath is kinda meh. Debuffs let the PCs keep playing while still meaningfully hampering them.
Yeah, SoDs are no good - you either make the save and it does nothing, or you lose the PC. This is why I like direct damage - unlike debuffs it doesn't reduce PC efficiency, but it's a clear and direct threat that can be used to keep up pressure and really make the kids worried. Slow doesn't make the PCs worry as much as fireball, even if it should, because their precious hit points are untouched.

[Crake]

It being so open ended makes people more hesitant to post ideas due to a concern that the ideas will be off topic. I almost didn't post the following idea. Additionally neither of the previous posters that tried to help you were being rude, although it is lamentable that was unclear.

Unseelie Fey(Dragon Compendium) is a CR +0 template that can grant Winter Chill.
Winter Chill (Su): An unseelie fey with winter chill has a presence that disquiets nonfey. The more beautiful the creature is, the more uncomfortable other beings feel. Living, nonfey creatures within 5 feet of her feel uneasy and suffer a morale penalty on saves equal to the unseelie fey's Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Polymorph Any Object is an 8th level spell that can permanently turn one of the PCs into an Unseelie Fey(Unusable Wings, No Eyes but Blindsight 30ft, Winter Chill).

Chain Spell Bestow Curse(50%: Do nothing) can hit the entire party & their allies

Polymorph any object inherits polymorph's restrictions, including the inability to apply templates to characters, otherwise you could literally just turn people into themselves plus a template. And even if you COULD turn them into unseelie fey, they would not get the supernatural special abilities or attacks, including winter chill. Conversely, no eyes would also result in no blindsense as well for the same reason, but the end result would basically be the effect of a blindness spell, because blindness would be the only actual result of that transformation.

[OldTrees1]

Polymorph any object inherits polymorph's restrictions, including the inability to apply templates to characters, otherwise you could literally just turn people into themselves plus a template. And even if you COULD turn them into unseelie fey, they would not get the supernatural special abilities or attacks, including winter chill. Conversely, no eyes would also result in no blindsense as well for the same reason, but the end result would basically be the effect of a blindness spell, because blindness would be the only actual result of that transformation.

Good catch. So maybe do the transformation as an unique ad hoc curse then.

In my very first game of D&D the DM had some beans that turned my brother into a Gnome.

[ATHATH]

Just make a level 1 Venerable Human Commoner (or some other class, like Wizard, but Commoner is funnier). Have him sit on a porch and swear at the PC's. If they attack him, he kicks their rumps with Chicken-Infested shenanigans.

[thoroughlyS]

The Hexer (Masters of the Wild) is meant to provide a kind of voodoo-y feel that stacks on top of adept levels for NPCs. It is also full BAB and caster progression. The hardest requirement is lightning bolt as a Divine spell, which can be accomplished several ways, my favorite is the Arcane Disciple cleric variant (Dragon 311). At every level they can add 1 bard or sorcerer/wizard spell to their list.

[WhamBamSam]

The Hexer (Masters of the Wild) is meant to provide a kind of voodoo-y feel that stacks on top of adept levels for NPCs. It is also full BAB and caster progression. The hardest requirement is lightning bolt as a Divine spell, which can be accomplished several ways, my favorite is the Arcane Disciple cleric variant (Dragon 311). At every level they can add 1 bard or sorcerer/wizard spell to their list.In absence of Dragon Magazine material, Shugenja and Archivist are the standard full caster entry options.

[Bonzai]

I have a Hexblade build that drops people's saves down -16, plus that Unseely fey template mentioned above drops it even further down by their charisma modifier. Basically drop their saves to nothing and cast on them with impunity.

Build was unseelie fey hexblade with 3 lvls of Blackguard for dark aura and +chat to saves. Relevant feats: dreadful wrath, brutal strike, netherese battle curse, bind vestige, and improved bind vestige. You will also need the dark companion alternative class feature. The vestige your going to bind is Focalor.

Anything within 5ft of you and your companion gets -6+ your charisma mod to their saves just from auras. Then declare a charge triggering dreadful wrath, power attack triggering brutal strike, sacrifice a spell for netherese battle curse, and free action hexblade curse. If the charge hits and all your debuffs go through they will be at -16 + charisma to saves, which you can follow up with either belt of battle or a rod of Quickening to cast a baleful polymorph. Basically you run up, bop them on the head, and they turn into a bunny.

[Stealth Marmot]

Just make a level 1 Venerable Human Commoner (or some other class, like Wizard, but Commoner is funnier). Have him sit on a porch and swear at the PC's. If they attack him, he kicks their rumps with Chicken-Infested shenanigans.

Wrong kind of curses. He means someone who uses magical curses not someone who is...

FOWL mouthed.

...I'll show myself out.

[Efrate]

Well there is bestow curse and bestow greater curse, which is BoVD IIRC, along with a host of necromancy you can refluff. Ray of enfeeblement can be strength curse, ray of nausea can be a sickening curse, etc. Depends on your exact definition of curse.

Witch from pathfinder does it well to, and you can more or less backport it 100%. Same with harbringer if you want a more martial variant. IN 3.5 hexblade is the curse "class" but its pretty awful; using the suggested update and look in dragon 339 for the curse feats.

I have a homebrew fix here: http://pastebin.com/HZD6sHWV which combines the suggested fix and a bit more.

You could make a curse squad, using a harbringer and witch ported from pathfinder, a hexblade, and a necromancer. Or cut necromancer for a binder with focalor and chucoclops, or use both!

[Gruftzwerg]

I would suggest a warlock.
- "Walk Unseen" 24/7 invisible
- unlimited "Curse of Despair" invocation ("Bestow Curse" spell)
- unlimited "Flee the Scene" (Dimension Door + Major Image of yourself)

With the mentioned 3 invocations you could build an annoying enemy. He will wait invisible for an opportunity to deliver his "Curse(s) of Despair" (doesn't break invisibility).
And even if they have methods to reveal him. Before they reveal him and cover the distance, he will already have used "Flee the Scene" and be behind the next wall.
Repeat this until you dropped their relevant stats to 1 and applied enough curses.
Now you are ready to start the "real" fight^^.

edit: I somehow had invisibility wrong in mind (thought it would only break on damage somehow..^^).
But still an option. The curse is delivered in the surprise round and you can escape as soon you hit initiative in the first regular round. Not as strong, but you could still try to tailor something around it I guess.

[Thurbane]

Archivist 5/Ruathar 3/Hexer 10/X 2.

It'll be a little mad (Wis and Int), but will be an excellent curser.

[Sapreaver]

There is a wujen spell that if it succeeds turns the affected in to treants and than oak trees. And even if it fails still causes a slow that lasts a really long time.

[Crake]

I would suggest a warlock.
- "Walk Unseen" 24/7 invisible
- unlimited "Curse of Despair" invocation ("Bestow Curse" spell)
- unlimited "Flee the Scene" (Dimension Door + Major Image of yourself)

With the mentioned 3 invocations you could build an annoying enemy. He will wait invisible for an opportunity to deliver his "Curse(s) of Despair" (doesn't break invisibility).
And even if they have methods to reveal him. Before they reveal him and cover the distance, he will already have used "Flee the Scene" and be behind the next wall.
Repeat this until you dropped their relevant stats to 1 and applied enough curses.
Now you are ready to start the "real" fight^^.

Can you explain your logic as to why you think curse of despair wouldn't break invisibility? Walk unseen duplicates regular invisibility, and using curse of despair most certainly would be considered an attack by all definitions, so there is no way that it wouldn't break invisibility.

[Gruftzwerg]

Can you explain your logic as to why you think curse of despair wouldn't break invisibility? Walk unseen duplicates regular invisibility, and using curse of despair most certainly would be considered an attack by all definitions, so there is no way that it wouldn't break invisibility.

sry, my bad. Had invisibility rules somehow wrong in mind (don't use it so often..). I edited the post to prevent further misleading.

[Matrota]

For an interesting combo, you could do a mixed build between an evil cleric and a reoptimized hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?88349-Can-someone-post-the-Hexblade-fix-here). Make them something like a lasher (Bastards and Bloodlines) or a boneclaw (MM3) so they can attack from 20 feet away, including touch attacks to bestow curses. Then maybe buff up their speed or use greater invisibilty to make them hard to catch.

[Amphetryon]

I like Shugenja. You may need some shenanigans to get appropriate spell access, but Sunscorch Hobgoblin Shugenja 7/Divine Oracle 3/Dread Witch 5/Hexer 5 (with LA buyoff) seems to meet OP's criteria.