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Almir
2017-02-24, 12:44 PM
Here is my take on the blood mage character class for 5e. Please let me know what you think of it:
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1QMRrlpFg

The_Jette
2017-02-24, 04:35 PM
I just read through your class. It's a little confusing, honestly. The overview describes casting spells by using your enemies as fodder, but nothing in the class abilities allows you to do that. It does allow you to replace your own health by draining your enemy's. But, that's a fixed number of dice, with only the dice improving. I'm also not sure why you chose to let the caster heal more dice of damage than dealing, as it would make sense to heal an equal amount (or less) than what is being drained. The amount of health that it costs in order to cast a spell definitely doesn't add up, either. Once they get to higher levels, it seems that they would completely abandon using their hp for casting, unless they're casting low level spells. The most hp you're going to have by the time you hit level 20 is 250, and that's assuming you maxed out your constitution. That might seem like a lot, but when you're hitting yourself with 7d8 damage to get ONE 9th level spell slot, you're putting yourself into a world of hurt for very temporary gains. And, at first level, if you need an extra first level spell you have to hit yourself for 3d4 damage. With a decent Con, you still probably don't have more than 13 hp. So, if you are at perfect health and roll well, you may very well accidentally kill yourself. In my opinion, you should try reducing the cost of the spell slots to a set number, make the blood-ritual implement have to be a weapon, and let it collect "damage points". Set a max it can hold, or something, if you wanna limit it that way; or, it can't hold points between combats; something like that. Then, those points can only be spent on casting spells. If they want to use their own, they can sacrifice a specific amount instead of rolling. So, if they have a short sword as the implement, they can do 1d6 hp of damage until they store up enough points, then use those points to cast spells. If you wanted you could have abilities that increase the damage of the implement, or whatever. Anyways, just some ideas that I thought you might like. I like where you're going with it. I just don't understand the self-healing ability instead of channeling the damage into casting spells.

TinyBlooper
2017-02-24, 04:55 PM
Base Class:
Casting Spells with HP: I'm not going to comment too much on this, but it seems like you're going to run into a problem where either the costs are low enough that you effectively have infinite low level spells or high enough that this feature is never worth using. It currently seems skewed toward the latter, but I'm not going to do the math right now.

Sacrifice - I would make the hit points gained equal to the damage dealt, otherwise a cleric could double the effectiveness of their single target heals by healing someone else and then having you drain them, which also negates the Corrupted Blood feature.

Blood Mastery - Granting a bunch of free uses to part of an ability seems like it could get confusing. I would recommend just maximizing the damage and healing done by Sacrifice when its used on a willing target.

Sanguine Master:
Occult Lore - If there's one thing Wizards and Wizard-likes don't need, its the ability to prepare more spells.

Dark Empowerment - 15 hit points for a 48 + Int mod damage Fireball seems like a little too good of a trade. I would make this grant advantage on attacks and disadvantage on saving throws instead of just pumping damage.

Bloodreaver:
Aura of Pain - This ability is nuts. Its ridiculously overpowered, especially combined with Sacrifice. You can just have your fighter stab you and deal double damage to the BBEG. And as a 2nd level feature? At most, this should deal Intelligence modifier damage, and only to the creature who damaged you, and even that might be too much for level 2.

Blood Rage - This is basically just a better version of the Barbarian's Rage that activates automatically and without the advantage on Strength rolls. That's pretty powerful, especially with no use limit, and it does sort of tread on the Barb's design space. I'm also not sure why a full spellcaster would be making weapon attacks.

Blood Frenzy - 4 attacks per round 6 levels before Fighters get them, and, if I'm reading this right, another 4 as a counter attack? I would ban this class just for that.

The Bloodreaver subclass is pretty MAD, needing Int for spells, Con for health, and Str for attacks. Maybe consider replacing Aura of Pain with the ability to make a weapon out of blood that lets you make melee spell attacks, and have the other features focus on making that better. I think there's a Spellsword class on here somewhere that might give you some ideas.

Also, I know my comments here have been mostly critical, but I do like the class. Bloodreaver in particular looks like a lot of fun, once the balance is sorted out.

Almir
2017-02-24, 08:36 PM
Ok, I've updated the document to version 1.1!
changes-
a few cosmetic/formatting changes
granted normal full caster spell slot progression instead of half-ish spell slots
the old "Blood Magic" now called Spellcasting
removed "casting spells using hit points"
"corrupted blood" is now a subfeature of the new Blood Magic feature instead of Spellcasting
now uses a sorcerer-like spellcasting feature rather than wizard-like, though intelligence is retained as the casting ability
added "dark siphon" feature
adjusted both subclasses to hopefully be more balanced, especially bloodreaver
pared down the spell list to be more fitting

I think some of the wording could be reworked, but you can only stare at something for so long before you stop getting new ideas on how to work it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

~Corvus~
2017-02-25, 01:59 PM
When I hear "blood mage" I see a ragged caster who taps into the mystical power of iron; who causes foes' weapons and armor to become liabilities. He turns arrows aside for his companions; he thrusts a knight off his horse onto the ground; he waves his hand and the rogue about to sneak up behind him finds the dagger embedded in his eye sockets.

He sees the battlefield as a resource. When his barbarian companion cleaves the arm off a foe, the mage chants a spell and catches the flying blood, drains the arm and forges spikes of iron and crystal to riddle the enemy with horrifying weapons. He loves the horrors of war.

The blood mage revels in a losing battle. Horses cloven in half, men and women writhing in terror and pain, a General calls for a full-scale retreat. But then this single caster finishes his ritual incantation and from the battlefield, an army of amorphous forms rise and shamble forth. The rushing footsoldiers, victory still on their lips, slam into the horrors, thinking to cut them asunder. Instead, they find their throats invaded and in a few heartbeats, five hundred souls cough and burst, showering more blood and gore across the field.

The general looks behind him as the circling crows descendbas a murder upon the broken bodies, and he looks for the one responsible. But he catches only a glimpse, for the mage has stepped into a clear pool and disappears to his fell sanctuary.

Thats what I think of when I hear "blood mage."

Looking at this brings me back to shadowrun policy of "geek the mage first." I suppose this runs counter to other suggestions, but I see the path of blood magic to be very powerful and very risky. High cost, high reward, like messy hedge-fund investing.

Why this instead of a Sorceror? Blood mage spells aren't any more powerful for all the sacrifice and pain. They can't wear armor, they dont cast spells that are harder to resist, their spells arent more damaging, you arent any safer than any other mage, and after all the effort of cutting yourself up its harder to heal? You're doing your enemies a load of favors!

At some point, I'd hope a bloodrager's expertise in phlebotomy might lend them to greater ease with weapons and such--I guess thats reflected in the implements higher damage--but a Barbarian outperforms his, doesnt lose HP to cast things, and has massive strength. Then, armorless, you have to make a melee attack to gain spell points. Yuck.

Worse, you only get 1 spell slot 6th - 9th. With all this Haemolurgic casting, you'd think, too, he'd have learned how to influence steel and iron; bend it and shape it. Why not move to 6th level casting and get cooler things?

Anyways, thats my 2 cents.

Almir
2017-02-25, 03:16 PM
When I hear "blood mage" I see a ragged caster who taps into the mystical power of iron; who causes foes' weapons and armor to become liabilities. He turns arrows aside for his companions; he thrusts a knight off his horse onto the ground; he waves his hand and the rogue about to sneak up behind him finds the dagger embedded in his eye sockets.

He sees the battlefield as a resource. When his barbarian companion cleaves the arm off a foe, the mage chants a spell and catches the flying blood, drains the arm and forges spikes of iron and crystal to riddle the enemy with horrifying weapons. He loves the horrors of war.

The blood mage revels in a losing battle. Horses cloven in half, men and women writhing in terror and pain, a General calls for a full-scale retreat. But then this single caster finishes his ritual incantation and from the battlefield, an army of amorphous forms rise and shamble forth. The rushing footsoldiers, victory still on their lips, slam into the horrors, thinking to cut them asunder. Instead, they find their throats invaded and in a few heartbeats, five hundred souls cough and burst, showering more blood and gore across the field.

The general looks behind him as the circling crows descendbas a murder upon the broken bodies, and he looks for the one responsible. But he catches only a glimpse, for the mage has stepped into a clear pool and disappears to his fell sanctuary.

Thats what I think of when I hear "blood mage."

Looking at this brings me back to shadowrun policy of "geek the mage first." I suppose this runs counter to other suggestions, but I see the path of blood magic to be very powerful and very risky. High cost, high reward, like messy hedge-fund investing.

Why this instead of a Sorceror? Blood mage spells aren't any more powerful for all the sacrifice and pain. They can't wear armor, they dont cast spells that are harder to resist, their spells arent more damaging, you arent any safer than any other mage, and after all the effort of cutting yourself up its harder to heal? You're doing your enemies a load of favors!

At some point, I'd hope a bloodrager's expertise in phlebotomy might lend them to greater ease with weapons and such--I guess thats reflected in the implements higher damage--but a Barbarian outperforms his, doesnt lose HP to cast things, and has massive strength. Then, armorless, you have to make a melee attack to gain spell points. Yuck.

Worse, you only get 1 spell slot 6th - 9th. With all this Haemolurgic casting, you'd think, too, he'd have learned how to influence steel and iron; bend it and shape it. Why not move to 6th level casting and get cooler things?

Anyways, thats my 2 cents.
When I designed this class, the flavor I was running off of was that of the blood mage from the dragon age series, who uses life to cast spells instead of mana. That initial idea didn't quite pan out, but i think this to be a suitable compromise between the source materials and game design, theme-wise.
Balance wise some of your point are things that I had overlooked at first, like not wearing armour or using any better weapons. As for "why this over a sorcerer", the short answer is more power over the course of the adventuring day. You get double the number of 7th 8th and 9th level slots (potentially), and effectively unlimited 1st -5th level spells, at the cost of life (yours or someone elses, depending on the character using it) and reduced healing effectiveness. One change to bloodreaver i've been considering is doing away with the extra attack feature entirely, and making the weapon damage dealt with the implement scale sort of like a cantrip. They also have more base HP, though it is offset by spending their hp.


All that said, it's far from finished to my mind, and im constantly thinking about new iterations and what i could improve about it.




Also your description of your vision of a blood mage (while it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be) sounds awesome, like a ferromancer or something :)

Almir
2017-02-25, 05:13 PM
Updated to v1.2:

- More minor cosmetic and formatting/wording changes
- Added "Grave Robber" feature, currently at 15th level.
- Added Light armor proficiency to base class
- Bloodreaver
-- Now has "Superior Proficiency" features, granting martial weapons, medium armor, and a spell attack for the implement.
-- "Blood Strike" moved to 6th level, now improves the damage of the implement spell attack.
-- Removed Extra Attack

~Corvus~
2017-02-25, 06:03 PM
As for "why this over a sorcerer", the short answer is more power over the course of the adventuring day. You get double the number of 7th 8th and 9th level slots (potentially), and effectively unlimited 1st -5th level spells, at the cost of life (yours or someone elses, depending on the character using it) and reduced healing effectiveness. One change to bloodreaver i've been considering is doing away with the extra attack feature entirely, and making the weapon damage dealt with the implement scale sort of like a cantrip. They also have more base HP, though it is offset by spending their hp.

Okay. I can see that. The spell-list has so few rituals it's hardly worth a specialty feature. It has a grand total of...10 rituals, 6 of which are at 1st level. Unless all of these rituals are granted by default it's not worth it. I recommend it being an addition onto the class as a whole; it's an excellent OoC perk but not worth a specialization's goodies.

Your change to the Superior Proficiency of the bloodrager absolutely makes it worth the specialization. Medium armor is excellent, and removes the need for STR and DEX.

The Blood mage from Dragon Age gets a huge bonus to spellpower. That's the first freaking reason you go there; YOU GET MORE POWER.Make Spellpower the the primary focus for the Sanguine Master: he gets an alternative use for blood-sacrifice, instead of just extra spells.

With the same cost of blood as getting extra slots, you may a boost to a spell's effective level. It starts with a +1 effective level, then +1 every 4 subsequent levels (6, 10, 14, 18). [U]Spellpower increases a spell's DC, dice of damage, and increases duration by that amount. As an example, Armor of Agathys lasts for 2 hours at level 2; 3 hours at 6, etc. Hex lasts for up to 2 hours and deals 2d6 necrotic damage on your attack, etc. Inflict Wounds deals 3d10 damage at level 1, etc. I'd play a Sanguine Master for that. Give any Cantrip a 4 blood point cost? That'd be totally worth it.

Your spells hit harder, they're harder to resist, and last longer and at a price.

Bump down the Sacrifice efficiency to 15, forbid its reduction on Spellpower and it's still entirely worth it.

Almir
2017-02-25, 09:20 PM
Ok, it's been updated to v1.3!

-changes this time:
-Moved "Blood Ritual" to the base class, at 3rd level for now.
-Specified a level limit on making spell slots
-Sanguine Master
--moved occult lore to 2nd level
--moved dark empowerment to 6th level
--new 10th level feature "Magic Boost" (almost Identical to the wizard(evocation) feature of the same level, hopefully to be replaced by something more thematic later on)



As to making spells more powerful at a price, that's actually already a feature of the sanguine master, "dark empowerment"

Almir
2017-02-25, 10:54 PM
Updated again to v1.3.1


Some spelling fixes
Also combined the Blood Magic and Blood-Ritual Implement into a single feature, with a new sidebar detailing how the implements are created.


Thanks for all the feedback so far! :D

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 02:40 AM
If you want to move to grammar we can. By the way, the layout is excellent.

Almir
2017-02-26, 12:02 PM
If you want to move to grammar we can. By the way, the layout is excellent.

If you're willing to hunt for grammar errors be my guest :) Its hard to spot them in your own writing a lot of the time. As for the layout, a lot of the credit for that goes to the homebrewery tool on naturalcrit, it makes these thing waaay easier to create so they look nice,

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 03:30 PM
Okay, we start at page 2~
Grammar OR Text that could be improved
Grammar (if any) OR rationale for revision
Correction or Alternative solution

3rd line: Her would be assailant
would-be

Blood magic is technically forbidden in society
Let the word you use here show the cultural consequence; you imply shunned (see below)
is shunned (Trust me on this one)

Not every blood mage takes their victims unwillingly, or murders the innocent (or not so innocent) in the night to use their power, but as far as most people are concerned, they might as well.
Sloppy. ALSO: Here you tell how most people see blood-mages: terrible, not forbidden. :smallwink:
Not every blood mage captures or murders their victims for personal power, but

...a free ticket to limitless power, in fact it's quite the opposite.
This has a Comma Splice; use a Semicolon (like I just did).
Power; in

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 03:39 PM
Page 3~
Grammar OR Text that could be improved
Grammar reason (if any) OR reason for revision
Correction or Alternative solution

Layout:
Bonus
Proficiency

Cantrips
Known

Spells
Known

Text at the bottom of the table jumps into your table area


following equipment, in addition to the
Comma splice: Independent clause to a dependent clause uses no comma
remove the comma

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 04:42 PM
Page 4~
I recommend you separate the character's identity and the player's identity. Assume the player is acting out a character they create, not playing his/herself. There's a lot of your spells, you get, etc. Since there is so much of this, and with Spellcasting ability section it's sensible, I won't point it out. Still, you may want to address it.

Grammar OR Text that could be improved
Grammar reason (if any) OR reason for revision
Correction or Alternative solution

At 1st level, you know 3 cantrips of your choice from the blood mage spell list.
Awkward sentence.
At 1st level, your character gains your choice of three cantrips from the blood mage spell list.

The Blood Mage table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher.
Awkward
Refer to the Blood Mage table to see the number of spell slots your character has for spells of 1st level and higher.

of your choice form the blood mage
Spelling

Intelligence is your spellcasting ability for your blood mage spells, since you learn your spells through dedicated study and memorization, much like a wizard.
Intelligence is the blood mage's primary spellcasting ability. Like a wizard, he learns spells through dedicated study and memorization.

rather than carry a spellbook and prepare your spells.

Blood Mages can create spell slots by spending blood magic points (BMP).
make the addition

As an action, you can use the implement
What kind of action?

you can use to cast your spells, and on some blood mage features.
consistency
you can use to cast your spells and use for some

Creating a spell slot requires a bonus action, and you can only create one spell slot per bonus action.
You can do better.
You may create 1 spell slot of your choice with a bonus action.

Using your own life force to fuel your spells has costs beyond the immediate loss of vigor: the effectiveness of magical healing is reduced by half. This does not affect potions or class features that restore hit points.
Needs refinement. Potions can be either magical or alchemical depending on the GM. Would this halve the effectiveness of a Paladin's Lay on Hands?
Beyond the immediate loss of vigor, the toll of using their own life force has a cost; healing spells affect them at half their normal amount.

To create a blood-ritual implement, you must spend one hour and 50gp worth of special materials, as well as a weapon to be turned into the implement.
The first part links dependent to independent clauses; that's fine. The second comma implies that that you're offsetting an appositive; this is not the case.
you must spend one hour, spend 50gp worth of special materials, and must have the weapon to be turned into the implement.

attuned to you, and can
attuned to you, and it can

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 06:32 PM
Page 5~

Grammar OR Text that could be improved
Grammar reason (if any) OR reason for revision
Correction or Alternative solution

At 2nd level, you choose a tradition of blood magic to follow
removals
At 2nd level, choose a tradition to follow

further utilizes
further-utilizes

spellcasting, and the Bloodreaver
This is a choice. You can't choose both, can you?
Change to or

features at 2nd level, and again
If you stack an independent clause in front of dependent clause, do not use comma. (Notice that I reversed it and it's fine. English is so odd.)
remove comma

to one minute, at the cost
remove comma

When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2 or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1.
This is an excellent selection of MOSTLY good comma use.
remove comma

At 11th level, the damage increase tod10's, and at 17th level it increases to d12's.[/U]
Verb agreement + " 's " implies possession. Plural has no comma here.
At 11th level, increase the damage die to a d10 and at 17th level increase it to a d12.
OR
At 11th level increase the damage die to a d10; at 17th level increase it to a d12.
Does that mean you can do a Duskblade thing and ADD 2d8 necrotic onto a spell like Inflict Wounds? If so, cool. If not, at 10th level, he has better things to do with his time since he's using an action to do PITIFUL damage.

Starting at 15th level, you have learned to draw lingering life energy from the corpses of creatures that are already dead, provided the corpse is fresh enough.
Now this is awesome comma use! Dependent + independent + participle. Yeah!

At 20th level, you have fully mastered the power of blood magic, and you gain the following benefits:
Insertion

Almir
2017-02-26, 10:53 PM
Alright,it'supdatedtov1.3.2


Alright it's updated to v1.3.2 with mostly grammar changes. I also re-added the blood mage traditions section which apparently disappeared somehow.

You seem to have noticed my weakness for commas and run-on sentences! haha :)
I implemented most of the grammar changes and a few of the wording changes you suggested, with some exceptions:
1


Layout:
Bonus
Proficiency

Cantrips
Known

Spells
Known

Text at the bottom of the table jumps into your table area
Unfortunately there's not much I can do about this, it seems to be an issue with the markdown compiler the website uses, I've tried a couple different solutions and none seem to work :(
2


following equipment, in addition to the
Comma splice: Independent clause to a dependent clause uses no comma
remove the comma
This comma is here because it's included in the same way in the PHB itself. I usually keep in things like this even though its technically incorrect just to maintain consistency with the official material. (This is the source of a lot of the errors you've pointed out)
3


At 1st level, you know 3 cantrips of your choice from the blood mage spell list.
Awkward sentence.
At 1st level, your character gains your choice of three cantrips from the blood mage spell list.

The Blood Mage table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher.
Awkward
Refer to the Blood Mage table to see the number of spell slots your character has for spells of 1st level and higher.
This is for the same reason as #2
4


As an action, you can use the implement
What kind of action?
This wording is used in the PHB quite a lot, it just means a basic Action, rather than a bonus action or reaction. They don't really have terms like Standard Action in 5e anymore :(

5


At 2nd level, you choose a tradition of blood magic to follow
removals
At 2nd level, choose a tradition to follow
This one is also based on PHB wording, specifically the Wizard's Arcane Tradition feature, which this was originally based on.

6


further utilizes
further-utilizes
not sure I actually understand this one, i can't think why it would be hyphenated? either way i've reworded that sentence since the original version felt awkward to me anyway.
7


When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2 or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1.
This is an excellent selection of MOSTLY good comma use.
remove comma
This text was actually lifted directly from the PHB, grammatical error and all. As such ill probably keep it that way, for the same reason as #2 and #3





Does that mean you can do a Duskblade thing and ADD 2d8 necrotic onto a spell like Inflict Wounds? If so, cool. If not, at 10th level, he has better things to do with his time since he's using an action to do PITIFUL damage.
This isn't intended to stack onto a weapon attack or cantrip, as the purpose of the attack isn't really damage, it's the blood magic points you gain from it.



Thanks again for all the feedback, I probably never would have noticed these on my own :)

Almir
2017-02-26, 10:59 PM
Also, the website seems to be having issues producing the document, but if you click "get PDF" in the top right corner, then close the print window you should be able to view it. Currently working on a more permanent solution D:

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 11:22 PM
If I told you "Too Wrong's dont make a wright," would you laugh? Including bad grammar because someone else did so is a case of this (two wrongs don't make a right.) Even if Wizards got it wrong, it behooves you to have excellent writing.

Almir
2017-02-26, 11:32 PM
If I told you "Too Wrong's dont make a wright," would you laugh? Including bad grammar because someone else did so is a case of this (two wrongs don't make a right.) Even if Wizards got it wrong, it behooves you to have excellent writing.

I wouldn't laugh; I just want it to be as consistent as possible with official materials as possible. In this case, it is my opinion that keeping it consistent is more desirable than correcting minor grammar mistakes. Specifically, I'm not suggesting it makes it right, I'm just saying that to me consistency is more important than absolute grammatical correctness. :)


Also if anyone has any experience using the Homebrewery's flavor of markup and has had this issue before, I could use some help with the whole document-not-displaying thing D:

EDIT: I figured it out; unfortunately that thing causing the document to load improperly was also the solution to the text not under-riding the class table, so it might continue to do that until I can figure something else out.

~Corvus~
2017-02-26, 11:39 PM
All in all, I think you've done a really good job on this, and while I disagree with your choice, I can respect that line of decision-making.

The_Jette
2017-02-28, 02:51 PM
I do have one question: Can the blood ritual implement be upgraded as a magic weapon? The damage it does is based off the class, it seems. But, the implement doesn't have its own section detailing what can and cannot be done with it.