Kenkus Just Why?

[Gizmogidget]

I recently purchased Volo's and am rather pleased, however I can not get over the kenku. So if you have the book you know that kenku are flightless birds who lack creativity and mimic others. The one problem I see with this is it being insanely annoying. Fictional example below

DM: You seem to have mad this dude really mad, he starts to draw his greatsword.
Kenku: Sorry, sir
DM: Well because you have only heard sorry said in a sarcastic manner, the man makes a full attack routine against you *rolls* and you take 130 damage.
Kenku: I'm dead.

An additional problem I have is I feel it would require a lot of bookkeeping trying to record every single word you could use for your vocabulary. Am I alone in these thoughts.

My main issue is that I've always wanted to play a bird person that wasn't an aarakocra but now these feel even worse to me. Thoughts?

[Regitnui]

Alternatively, they're incredibly creative: the sound of a trickle of water could mean "I'm thirsty" or the rumble of thunder could be a warning. Don't think of them as unable to speak. Think of them as perfect mimics who talk without words. Download a sound effect app.and go wild.

[rlc]

So it shows that it's sorry instead of saying it. Not being creative doesn't mean you can't use body language.

[Gizmogidget]

Alternatively, they're incredibly creative: the sound of a trickle of water could mean "I'm thirsty" or the rumble of thunder could be a warning. Don't think of them as unable to speak. Think of them as perfect mimics who talk without words. Download a sound effect app.and go wild.

The problem is that the book explicitly says they lack creativity, I don't mind the vocal mimicry it's just the lack of creativity part.

[Tetrasodium]

I recently purchased Volo's and am rather pleased, however I can not get over the kenku. So if you have the book you know that kenku are flightless birds who lack creativity and mimic others. The one problem I see with this is it being insanely annoying. Fictional example below

DM: You seem to have mad this dude really mad, he starts to draw his greatsword.
Kenku: Sorry, sir
DM: Well because you have only heard sorry said in a sarcastic manner, the man makes a full attack routine against you *rolls* and you take 130 damage.
Kenku: I'm dead.

An additional problem I have is I feel it would require a lot of bookkeeping trying to record every single word you could use for your vocabulary. Am I alone in these thoughts.

My main issue is that I've always wanted to play a bird person that wasn't an aarakocra but now these feel even worse to me. Thoughts?

I'm in a game wthat has a kenuku rogue. We have used the mimic ability plus an illusionist disguising his own face to impersonate people & there are other players (like the illusionist)going more party face role. Combined with a wildshaped druid impersonating a dead wizard's familiar, it was an exceedingly convincing deception to get passed the gates & start murderhoboing the goblins & such in small groups. I've never seen the gm really punish him for mimic when simply communicating. the player also does a great deal of describing sounds to express things and sometimes miming.

Maybe instead of "sorry sir", try more for "I mimic the sound of that church music we heard this morning when all those people seemed happy & kinda do a placating calm wiggle of my palms". It''s almost an improved at will version of the sound component to minor illusion in some ways.

[King539]

The example you gave is the DM specifically trying to screw over the player.

[JobsforFun]

The problem is that the book explicitly says they lack creativity, I don't mind the vocal mimicry it's just the lack of creativity part.

I mean you don't have to follow the book to a perfect T, if your DM is fine with it just ask if that can be removed. The example that was given above with thunder being a warning and water sounds meaning they're thirsty is perfectly fine. In the book it mentions a hammer banging on an anvil to simulate that the kenku is bored.

I'm in a campaign with a kenku rouge and the person playing him just uses sound clips from youtube, when someone is annoying and talking to him or something of the sort he just makes goose noises, in hand it is actually pretty funny but can become annoying if done to death.

[JobsforFun]

The example you gave is the DM specifically trying to screw over the player.

I get what he is trying to say but surely the kenku if possible could take parts of what they've heard and combine it with other things to not sound 'sarcastic'?

But I suppose that comes with the 'lack of creativity' which kind of screws over this race.

[Grey Watcher]

I recently purchased Volo's and am rather pleased, however I can not get over the kenku. So if you have the book you know that kenku are flightless birds who lack creativity and mimic others. The one problem I see with this is it being insanely annoying. Fictional example below

DM: You seem to have mad this dude really mad, he starts to draw his greatsword.
Kenku: Sorry, sir
DM: Well because you have only heard sorry said in a sarcastic manner, the man makes a full attack routine against you *rolls* and you take 130 damage.
Kenku: I'm dead.

If the DM is arbitrarily deciding a PC's prior life experience for them, I'd file it under railroading. At most the above should be the result of a failed Persuasion check.


An additional problem I have is I feel it would require a lot of bookkeeping trying to record every single word you could use for your vocabulary. Am I alone in these thoughts.

Personally I'd just have the character favor sound effects over words; perhaps they know they don't handle the nuances of spoken conversation well enough, so they prefer it.

Alternatively, imagine a handful of people your character spent time with before adventuring. Thus you don't have to think of EVERYTHING, just "Could he know a useful work or phrase from his partner in the Thieves' Guild, his former landlady, or the scholar he used to do transcriptions for?"


My main issue is that I've always wanted to play a bird person that wasn't an aarakocra but now these feel even worse to me. Thoughts?

Kenku, as presented, are definitely very much a niche kind of character. If you have a willing DM, you could drop the "cannot form original sentences thing" and just use the stats as a generic anthro-mockingbird.

[Tetrasodium]

The problem is that the book explicitly says they lack creativity, I don't mind the vocal mimicry it's just the lack of creativity part.

so they aren't known for composing masterful symphonies. They are used to communicating, it's up to you to translate that communicating into meaningful things. Think of it like playing a wildshaped druid but with the ability to use words and any sound you can think to describe.

[JobsforFun]

so they aren't known for composing masterful symphonies. They are used to communicating, it's up to you to translate that communicating into meaningful things. Think of it like playing a wildshaped druid but with the ability to use words and any sound you can think to describe.

I think he is taking 'lack of creativity' as absolutely no creativity what so ever, but kenku's still have some creativity they just don't have much.

[Grey Watcher]

so they aren't known for composing masterful symphonies. They are used to communicating, it's up to you to translate that communicating into meaningful things. Think of it like playing a wildshaped druid but with the ability to use words and any sound you can think to describe.


I think he is taking 'lack of creativity' as absolutely no creativity what so ever, but kenku's still have some creativity they just don't have much.

I'm away from my book, but doesn't it explicitly state that their creativity is so limited that they literally cannot form original sentences? (Which raises the question of how this character can participate in things like combat, but as the kids on the interwebs say, arbitrary line is arbitrary.)

[Kenkudette]

The Kenku are bound by an ancient curse. It withers their wings, steals their voices, and deprives them of their ingenuity and skill (which they used against their master). The reason they cannot speak in complete sentences is not because of their lack of creativity but their lack of voice. They must create patchwork sentences using a variety of mimicked words. They can still understand, read, and write clearly in their language. The curse simply has their tongue. If a warlock used telepathy they could have a normal conversation. They have been stripped of creativity but it is actually a very specific sort of creativity. They can't innovate, only copy.

As for language they are creative with their communication. They're still intelligient they are simply operating under a curse. The book states they dream of flying. In order to have asperations they must have imaginations and that in itself is a form of creativity. The problem here, ironically enough, is the English language doesn't really distinguish these from each other so well, we just use context.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm away from my book, but doesn't it explicitly state that their creativity is so limited that they literally cannot form original sentences? (Which raises the question of how this character can participate in things like combat, but as the kids on the interwebs say, arbitrary line is arbitrary.)


Unfortunately for the kenku, their master discovered
their plan before they could enact it. Enraged, the en-
tity imposed three dreadful curses upon them. First,
the kenku's beloved wings withered and fell away from
their bodies, leaving them bound to the earth. Second,
because their ingenuity and skill had turned toward
scheming against their patron, the spark of creativity
was torn from their souls. Finally, to ensure that the
kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took
away their voices. Once the entity was satisfied that they
had been sufficiently punished, the kenku were set loose
on the Material Plane.

Above all else, kenku wish to regain their ability to fly.
Every kenku is born with a desire to take to the air, and
those who learn spellcasting do so in hope of mastering
spells that will allow them to fly. Rumors of magic items
such as flying carpets, brooms capable of flight, and
similar objects provoke a great desire for the kenku to
acquire the items for themselves.
Despite their lack of wings, kenku love dwelling in
towers and other tall structures. They seek out ruins
that reach to the sky, though they lack the motivation
and creativity to make repairs or fortify such places.

Even so, their light weight and size allow them to dwell
in rickety structures that would collapse beneath a hu-
man or an ore.
Some thieves' guilds use kenku as lookouts and mes-
sengers. The kenku dwell in the tallest buildings and
towers the guild controls, allowing them to lurk in the
highest levels and to keep watch on the city below.

HOPELESS PLAGIARISTS
As,a r~sult of their lack of creativity, kenku function
comfortably as minions of a powerful master. Flock
leaders enforce discipline and minimize conflicts,
but they fail at effective planning or crafting long-
term schemes.
Although unable to speak in,their own voices, kenku
can perfectly mimic any sound they hear, from a half-
ling's voice to the noise of rocks clattering down a hill-
side. However, kenku cannot create new sounds and
can communicate only by using sounds they have heard.
Most kenku use a combination of overheard phrases
and sound effects to convey their ideas and thoughts.
By the same token, kenku have no ability to invent new
ideas or create new things. Kenku can copy existing
items with exceptional skill, allowing them to become
excellent artisans and scribes. They can copy books,
make replicas of objects, and otherwise thrive in situa-
tions where they can produce large numbers of identical
items. Few kenku find this work satisfying, since their
quest for the freedom of flight makes them ill-suited to
settle into a routine.

IDEAL MINIONS
Kenku gather in groups called flocks. A flock is led by
the oldest and most experienced kenku with the widest
store of knowledge to draw on, often called Master.
Although kenku can't create new things, they have a
talent for learning and memorizing details. Thus, am-
bitious kenku can excel as superb spies and scouts. A
kenku who learns of clever schemes and plans devised
by other creatures can put them to use. The kenku lack
the talent to improvise or alter a plan, but a wise Master
sets multiple plans in motion at once, confident that un-
derlings can follow orders to the letter.
For this reason, many kenku make an easy living
serving as messengers, spies, and lookouts for thieves'
guilds, bandits, and other criminal cartels. A network of
kenku can relay a bird call or similar noise across the
city, alerting their allies to the approach of a guard pa-
trol or signaling a prime opportunity for a robbery.
Since kenku can precisely reproduce any sound, the
messages they carry rarely suffer degradation or shifts
in meaning. Human messengers might switch words
or phrases and garble a message inadvertently, but the
kenku produce perfect copies of whatever they hear.

KENKU ADVENTURERS
Kenku adventurers are usually the survivors of a flock
that has sustained heavy losses, or a rare kenku who
has grown weary of a life of crime. These kenku are
more ambitious and daring than their fellows. Others
strike out on their own in search of the secrets of flight,
to master magic, or to uncover the secret of their curse
and find a method to break it.
Kenku adventurers, despite their relative indepen-
dence, still have a tendency to seek out a companion to
emulate and follow. A kenku loves to mimic the voice
and words of its chosen companion.


I skipped copying a few irrelivant bits but not to that extreme degree. They are intelligent, just not generally the most creative species; That doesn't make them mindless. one of the old 3.5 books had a freaking feat for beholders to use their disintegration ray for carving statues and stuff despite the fact that they effectively want to destroy everything

[ad_hoc]

They can't be creative but they can still be clever. Think of the creative part as being more about creating new art and the like. That is why they have forgery. They can't make something new but they can duplicate it.

My only problem with the Kenku in Volo's is that they are underpowered. Their Mimicry and Forgery skills just aren't very good. At least the MM Kenku got expertise on their Deception. As written someone with Minor Illusion is just as good at mimicry as a Kenku only they can also speak normally. Someone with Actor is much better. So overall Mimicry is actually just a hindrance and they don't get much to make up for it.

I'm currently playing one and it's going well. I did have a talk with the DM ahead of time and he agreed to make rulings in my favour. Most notable is to have the Mimicry be flawless unless the listener is intimately familiar with the subject I am mimicking, then there is a contested check. For example, if I want to mimic wolves howling then random NPCs aren't going to be checking to see if they can detect that the howls are fake.

[Tetrasodium]

They can't be creative but they can still be clever. Think of the creative part as being more about creating new art and the like. That is why they have forgery. They can't make something new but they can duplicate it.

My only problem with the Kenku in Volo's is that they are underpowered. Their Mimicry and Forgery skills just aren't very good. At least the MM Kenku got expertise on their Deception. As written someone with Minor Illusion is just as good at mimicry as a Kenku only they can also speak normally. Someone with Actor is much better. So overall Mimicry is actually just a hindrance and they don't get much to make up for it.

I'm currently playing one and it's going well. I did have a talk with the DM ahead of time and he agreed to make rulings in my favour. Most notable is to have the Mimicry be flawless unless the listener is intimately familiar with the subject I am mimicking, then there is a contested check. For example, if I want to mimic wolves howling then random NPCs aren't going to be checking to see if they can detect that the howls are fake.


Good example. most random npc's aren't going to know the difference between wolves howling & a very good copy of that sound. Even if they do, they probably are not going to quibble too much as long as it's close just because it's one of those better safe than sorry things. now if you were mimic'ing wolf howls back at the wolves in the dark forest that just tried to challenge you for territory... well.... oops

[RazDelacroix]

Now I want to see that.

Kenku Player: I make a series of howling wolves sound so as to scare off the bandits! *Rolls, success*

DM: The bandits look about in fear, get on their horses and ride off into the night.

Other Player: Nice job!

DM: However, you hear an answering howl as you see a pack of wolves coming over the hill led by a dire wolf.

KP: Oh no! I sounded the dinner bell!

[No brains]

What if Kenku just lacked creativity in that they liked really derivative works? :smalltongue:

I've seen some people throw shade that equates liking some things to a blood curse of nullified creativity.

[gfishfunk]

The example you gave is the DM specifically trying to screw over the player.

This. Discussion over.

Suppose it was a human that said "I'm sorry." and then the DM says, "You sound sarcastic and insincere. The guard kills you." Its the same situation: the PLAYER gets to play the CHARACTER, not the DM.


I get what he is trying to say but surely the kenku if possible could take parts of what they've heard and combine it with other things to not sound 'sarcastic'?

But I suppose that comes with the 'lack of creativity' which kind of screws over this race.

The player determines the way the player's character acts: it doesn't need to be combined with anything. The player can say 'The Kenku says the phrase heard from a child that sounds reproached, "I'm sorry."

The lack of creativity is total fluff. It does not constrain the race at all. It cannot come up with an original plan, so it remembers a plan someone else used and uses it: its the same plan that the player was going to come up with either way.

[ad_hoc]

The lack of creativity is total fluff. It does not constrain the race at all. It cannot come up with an original plan, so it remembers a plan someone else used and uses it: its the same plan that the player was going to come up with either way.

Pretty much. I would quibble with 'total fluff' as I think fluff should inform how the game plays out.

Still, going back to examples the Kenku I'm playing has studied a lot of plans. They don't come up with new plans but they have plans A, B, C, and D for most situations. So if one goes bad they just fall back on another one. The way this differs from a regular character though is that the Kenku won't do something like combine plans A and B, they will just switch entirely to plan B if A fails.

In any case it is me, the player, who is coming up with the plans.

[Prince Zahn]

The kenkus have a lot of potential as roguish characters, the example mentioned above would be invalid since the DM/player can't possibly have a detailed list of everything that the kenku has heard from birth. a sentence like "I'm sorry" as an apology is a common one, always was. it's safe to assume you heard it.
it is a bit more difficult to justify how that same kenku could offer an enlightening and eloquent discussion into the multifaceted ways in which magic takes form in the multiverse, assuming no other character had said the exact same thing "on stage" in the past.

So, yes, working only with sounds you already heard before is a pain in the butt, describing sounds as a player or having a playlist of sound effects does help. if you really want to blow your players away with mimicry, you could listen to noteworthy (or presumably innocent things that went under everyone's radar) things that your party members and NPCs say, and use their own words against them during your interactions or diplomacy checks.

Event 1:
Player A: Maybe we should stop in town first and recuperate?
Player B: No, (player A), we must not stray from the path, slaying the dragon is our top priority.

Player A: but we're almost out of food.
Player B:(long pause) Very Well, we shall take what we can and leave at dawn
(kenkus player jots that down)
Event 2:
Player B (speaking with the Kenku): I don't know what to do, Kenku-kun. I think I met my special someone, I want to be with (him/her), I know our quest is important but every day I am not with her is another day she is in danger. what should I do?"
Kenku (mimicking Player B from 6 sessions ago): "No, (player A), we must not stray from the path, slaying the dragon is our top priority."
Player B: I know, but... she's just too important to me.
Kenku: *mimics touching sounds of a viol*
Player B: If I leave her, she might be killed in my absence.
Kenku: (still mimicking Player B) "Very Well, we shall take what we can and leave at dawn."
-----------------------------------------
You get the idea.:smallwink:

as mentioned before, I think the intention is that you just can't innovate or come up with new things, or new words or phrases. that has nothing to do with cunning - to be able to shape mimicry into a viable form of communication does require a good deal of some form of intelligence. don't beat yourself up over bookkeeping and don't let your DM hustle you on BS claims like you began with - D&D assumes you begin play at adulthood - anything you might have heard (or overheard) prior to his first session is not his decision to make.

[Gizmogidget]

I'm away from my book, but doesn't it explicitly state that their creativity is so limited that they literally cannot form original sentences? (Which raises the question of how this character can participate in things like combat, but as the kids on the interwebs say, arbitrary line is arbitrary.)

The book directly says that the bird people served some master, and when they made him mad by trying to flee with some treasure he took their voices, tore the spark of creativity from their souls, and removed their wings. To me this means that they lack creativity entirely, which to me makes this really ripe for DM abuse just like the paladin was in previous editions. I'm fine with changing the race to something less extreme but what was wotc thinking with this race?

[Tetrasodium]

The book directly says that the bird people served some master, and when they made him mad by trying to flee with some treasure he took their voices, tore the spark of creativity from their souls, and removed their wings. To me this means that they lack creativity entirely, which to me makes this really ripe for DM abuse just like the paladin was in previous editions. I'm fine with changing the race to something less extreme but what was wotc thinking with this race?

d&d lacks a system like fate's compels & the example given by the OP is on par with rocjs fall/lightning strikes on a scale of groan to interesting. If your GM is going to abuse you like that, it probably means you should find a different gm.

[ad_hoc]

The book directly says that the bird people served some master, and when they made him mad by trying to flee with some treasure he took their voices, tore the spark of creativity from their souls, and removed their wings. To me this means that they lack creativity entirely, which to me makes this really ripe for DM abuse just like the paladin was in previous editions. I'm fine with changing the race to something less extreme but what was wotc thinking with this race?

Right, but then it goes on to describe all the creative things they do.

Keep in mind that Volo's Guide is written by Volo who is not an omniscient narrator. Also, this calls into question the nature of creativity. It has been said that all creativity is just copying previous works.

“Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal.”
― T.S. Eliot, The Sacred Wood

“To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.”
― Steven Wright

(side note: Nothing in the game rules will stop DM or player abuse. Have a conversation about it or find a new group)

[tieren]

Every word you yourself say you heard someone else say first. The Kenku can say anything you can.

[Mith]

I view Kenku as being unable to innovate because their brain focuses on all the details they observe of things they know.

When you learn a word, how you speak that word is shaped by your past experience and natuaral voice. A kenku does not have that influence, and so always recall the word exactly as spoken.

What I find neat is the idea that Kenku communities could have Rememberers that pass on important pieces of knowledge word for word, and that different communities slowly develop a shated way of speaking.

[nilshai]

Every word you yourself say you heard someone else say first. The Kenku can say anything you can.

Exactly, the kenku would talk exactly like everybody else and even with kenku voice, because he heard every word spoken imperfectly by another kenku.

[Talwar]

I've been playing a tengu in a PF game (where, granted, the background is apparently different) and simply assume the character has learned whole phrases instead of words. Thus his dialogues is almost exclusively pop culture references, which happens to amuse the DM and other players rather consistently.

[Zalabim]

Every word you yourself say you heard someone else say first. The Kenku can say anything you can.

I wanted to say this. Especially if there's no printing press, every word you know would be a word you've heard before. That's the only way you'd know the word, after all.

[Theodoxus]

Every word you yourself say you heard someone else say first. The Kenku can say anything you can.

Except Reconnoiter... I'd read that before I ever heard anyone say it first... I think I was maybe 10 or 12 and had no idea how to pronounce it...

Oh, and Demesne... heck, I'm pretty sure I've never heard anyone actually say that word...

[Stan]

Every word you yourself say you heard someone else say first. The Kenku can say anything you can.

That's my problem with how Volo describes them. Well 98% have been heard, a few read. But there is no reason that Kenku shouldn't be able to use words to communicate. However, their speech might sound like the audio equivalent of a ransom note made from clippings, with the voice changing every few words.

I'm planning on using them in a campaign and I've decided that Kenku teach their young 10,000+ words in a semi-rote fashion to make sure they can say things - PCs won't talk in sounds unless they want to. The side effect is that most Kenku would say a given word in the exact same voice, as it's been handed down.


I view Kenku as being unable to innovate because their brain focuses on all the details they observe of things they know.


That's a good way to handle it. Actually, some mental disorders have an attentional component like this, their focus on the wrong aspects.

I don't think lack of creativity is that big of a deal. They can copy and combine what they know, probably remembering the details better than most. I think most humans really operate on that level of creativity. Half of all fantasy books show almost no creativity - take another book or an historical situation, swap out 2-3 things and replace them with things from another source= original enough to not get sued.

My other problem with Kenku, which I can overlook as it's a fantasy game, is that the memory load for exact reproduction of so many things would be huge and would require brain structures far different that what any animals have.

[Tetrasodium]

My other problem with Kenku, which I can overlook as it's a fantasy game, is that the memory load for exact reproduction of so many things would be huge and would require brain structures far different that what any animals have.

no, not really (https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/songbirds-recognize-songs-the-way-humans-recognize-vowels/), just different from the mammal fork of the evolutionary tree. On that note, there is all kinds of research (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/avian-einsteins/201205/corvid-tool-use-play-and-more) on corvids (ie crows) & other birds doing things like making tools in the wild

[Regitnui]

If kenku don't have to process languages or learn them, it frees up an awful lot of brainpower. Also, they may not recognise the words as words. I can certainly see a community of kenku using human words to mean different concepts; "Get out" could mean "a building we're not allowed in", for example.

[Stan]

no, not really (https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/songbirds-recognize-songs-the-way-humans-recognize-vowels/), just different from the mammal fork of the evolutionary tree. On that note, there is all kinds of research (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/avian-einsteins/201205/corvid-tool-use-play-and-more) on corvids (ie crows) & other birds doing things like making tools in the wild

Corvids mimic only a few things, and not perfectly - there's no evidence that a single bird could perfectly mimic thousands of sounds.

[Tetrasodium]

Corvids mimic only a few things, and not perfectly - there's no evidence that a single bird could perfectly mimic thousands of sounds.
The first link is about how it was discovered songbirds with brains the size of a small nut have absolute pitch.... and then there is the freaking lyrebird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZtoXIb7do
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrby8i2nK7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0ZffIh0-NA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjE0Kdfos4Y
Oh yea, there is evidence of birds with small nut sized brains being able to mimic things

[Stan]

Oh yea, there is evidence of birds with small nut sized brains being able to mimic things
I'm aware of the research. Again, it's a matter of scale. It's a difference between mimicking some things and perfectly mimicking everything.

[Regitnui]

I'm aware of the research. Again, it's a matter of scale. It's a difference between mimicking some things and perfectly mimicking everything.

Now if the brain of a meerkat can hold a language of predators and a human can learn two or three languages, the equivalent between a parrot and kenku can exist. A lyrebird can learn many sounds. A kenku, with greater intelligence, can memorize thousands.

[Mith]

Kenku make the perfect court reporters. All you need to do is give them a Quill of Dictation, and they are all set.

[Tetrasodium]

Now if the brain of a meerkat can hold a language of predators and a human can learn two or three languages, the equivalent between a parrot and kenku can exist. A lyrebird can learn many sounds. A kenku, with greater intelligence, can memorize thousands.

Two or three?... pfft... The guy hired to put together the belter language for the expanse speaks dozens (https://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/02/nick-farmer-knows-dozens-of-languages-so-he-invented-one-for-the-expanse/) of languages

[Regitnui]

Two or three?... pfft... The guy hired to put together the belter language for the expanse speaks dozens (https://arstechnica.com/the-multiverse/2016/02/nick-farmer-knows-dozens-of-languages-so-he-invented-one-for-the-expanse/) of languages

Mine point. A kenku is as far above a raven or parrot as we are above a meerkat. There are going to be savants of imitation among them as there are savants of language among us. A really talented kenku could learn draconic or celestial phrases. Can you imagine the praise or happiness a player character kenku could get for being the first to hear the voice of a coatl or the sound of modron steps?

[TripleD]

The Kenkus remind me of how some kids with Asperger's will quote TV Shows and Movies to communicate, even to the point of using accents that they themselves don't have. I remember one adult, looking back on how he used to do it, described it as building a "toolbox" to get across his ideas and emotions to other people.

The word choice could have been better in their description (although we can chalk it up to unreliable narrator). Kenku clearly use their voices in creative ways; maybe it's better to say they lack the spark of "innovation".

[DracoKnight]

The Kenkus remind me of how some kids with Asperger's will quote TV Shows and Movies to communicate, even to the point of using accents that they themselves don't have. I remember one adult, looking back on how he used to do it, described it as building a "toolbox" to get across his ideas and emotions to other people.

The word choice could have been better in their description (although we can chalk it up to unreliable narrator). Kenku clearly use their voices in creative ways; maybe it's better to say they lack the spark of "innovation".

This. I think you just hit it on the head. Kenku are Aspey :smalltongue:

Also probably why i'm not particularly drawn to the kenku: I don't wanna play myself in a fantasy world. I wanna be someone else :smalltongue:

[Tetrasodium]

Mine point. A kenku is as far above a raven or parrot as we are above a meerkat. There are going to be savants of imitation among them as there are savants of language among us. A really talented kenku could learn draconic or celestial phrases. Can you imagine the praise or happiness a player character kenku could get for being the first to hear the voice of a coatl or the sound of modron steps?

Yea, I was backing up your point :D

[GorinichSerpant]

This. I think you just hit it on the head. Kenku are Aspey :smalltongue:

Also probably why i'm not particularly drawn to the kenku: I don't wanna play myself in a fantasy world. I wanna be someone else :smalltongue:

I'm tempted right now to start writing up monsters and gods that go around giving people cognitive disorders but have it described in from a psychology-and-neurology-haven't-been-invented-yet perspective.

[DracoKnight]

I'm tempted right now to start writing up monsters and gods that go around giving people cognitive disorders but have it described in from a psychology-and-neurology-haven't-been-invented-yet perspective.

That could be an interesting exercise. As I have found the gaming community tends to draw people who suffer from such things, myself included :smalltongue:

[Deleted]

Every word you yourself say you heard someone else say first. The Kenku can say anything you can.

Well, no, I read a lot and as a kid I thought it was pronounced "sword of Da-mock-o-lese" and in turn said it that way until I looked it up.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damocles

[Herobizkit]

Speaking of media, does anyone not relate the Kenku to Michael Bay's Bumblebee (who lost his voice and can only communicate in sound fx and voice clips), or the Junkions (who communicate entirely in Earth commercial clips) from Transformers?

'Cuz that's what I'd do. ^_^

[RazDelacroix]

Herobizkit

Re: Kenkus Just Why?
Speaking of media, does anyone not relate the Kenku to Michael Bay's Bumblebee (who lost his voice and can only communicate in sound fx and voice clips), or the Junkions (who communicate entirely in Earth commercial clips) from Transformers?

'Cuz that's what I'd do. ^_^


I talk TV! And now the news, so don't touch that dial!

[Grey Watcher]

Speaking of media, does anyone not relate the Kenku to Michael Bay's Bumblebee (who lost his voice and can only communicate in sound fx and voice clips), or the Junkions (who communicate entirely in Earth commercial clips) from Transformers?

'Cuz that's what I'd do. ^_^

I just imagine the Tape Deck Robot from that episode of Futurama.

[JackPhoenix]

In Warhammer 40k novel Last Chancers, there was a character who could speak only in Imperial Cult scriptures after traumatizing event (being buried under a pile of corpses in a ruined chapel after a battle with tyranids). He could understand just fine, he was just unable to say anything that wasn't from those books. Sometimes, other characters realised what he meant, sometimes, everyone (including him) was frustrated that nobody understands what he's trying to say be the things he quoted. I can imagine Kenkus being similar

[Nerdynick]

Just to point out that there are alternative character concepts that work well for the race, I have a player in my SKT game that is a Kenku cleric of Gond (forge domain). His whole plot is about frustration over that lack of creativity and seeking to create something that is truly his.

[Luccan]

One could argue the lack of creativity means they can't just pull singular words together, unless they've heard those specific words by themselves. That is, if they hear you say "I started a fire", they can't just say "fire" in your voice, but that seems to limit the use of their Mimic ability significantly. You couldn't really do impersonations like that, unless you followed a mark for months or even years. On the other hand, your party could teach a Kenku a ton of individual words if that were the case. They'd just sound like a mix board of their friends when they talked.

Second thought, if a Kenku can't put a unique sentence together, that implies they can't attach specific meaning to words, noises, or phrases. "*thunder* and that's when I told him- *three wolves howling* *sound of a bar fight at the Green Fern Inn*" can't mean anything, because that would be a unique sentence. So, Kenku fluff is just horribly unspecific enough that they can't actually communicate anything other than ideas they've already heard. So the way the curse should read (if you want them to talk ever), is something like "Kenku do not have voices. They can, however, repeat any noise they have heard and construct language in this manner." For the extremely strict interpretation "They cannot fragment noises to communicate ideas, so even simple sentences like 'Let's makes camp' can only be said if they have heard that exact phrase before".

[Regitnui]

Judging by the fact that they can pull together a language of sorts, where a cat's meow means "run, cops on the way" and the clink of coins is a demand of payment, I'd say the strict interpretation is off the table. It's seems its intended to be "no language or voice but perfect mimics".

[cobaltstarfire]

Just to point out that there are alternative character concepts that work well for the race, I have a player in my SKT game that is a Kenku cleric of Gond (forge domain). His whole plot is about frustration over that lack of creativity and seeking to create something that is truly his.

How's that going for you so far?

I've got a character like that (though originally she was for a campaign where a bunch of humans got sucked into a dreamscape type place, meant to be very troubled artist entrapped in a kenkus body). Now she's just a phoenix sorcerer of Gond because I found another game I could potentially run the idea in (minus the once was a human, though I suppose it'd be an interesting twist if she had been a human and was just reincarnated into a kenku....hmmmm)

edit:

I kind of feel like in a way kenku can be creative, they're just so darn convinced that they aren't that they don't even bother trying, or doing so never even crosses their mind. It's the only way their ability to even communicate could work. I legitimately come across people like this in real life, some of them have just never bothered to try so they don't think they are capable of doing anything creative or innovative, others are just artists who have had it so rough that they can't bring themselves to make art anymore without hitting a mental block and putting down their tools.

Or it'd be interesting if they are purposely not creative, like in some setting there's a line you don't cross for fear of the entity that took their creativity and flight away will come down and punish them further.

[Saeviomage]

The way I see it:
All language is copying.
The fact that an individual has a voice is just imperfect copying.
Kenku can copy perfectly.

*Kenku thought process*
Why would I choose to copy imperfectly? My 'voice' comes from the unique complement of sounds that I have gathered.

It's not that they would be totally incapable of making a unique new sound: it's that it's an incomprehensible topic.

To that end, you could have a Kenku who is seen by other Kenku as being mad or disabled because he chooses or is forced to have his own voice.

[Prince Zahn]

edit:

I kind of feel like in a way kenku can be creative, they're just so darn convinced that they aren't that they don't even bother trying, or doing so never even crosses their mind. It's the only way their ability to even communicate could work. I legitimately come across people like this in real life, some of them have just never bothered to try so they don't think they are capable of doing anything creative or innovative, others are just artists who have had it so rough that they can't bring themselves to make art anymore without hitting a mental block and putting down their tools.

I really like this approach, very much a self fulfilling prophesy. Do you mind if I steal it for my own future game with Kenkus?

[cobaltstarfire]

I really like this approach, very much a self fulfilling prophesy. Do you mind if I steal it for my own future game with Kenkus?

Sure, go ahead!

[Cybren]

I really like this approach, very much a self fulfilling prophesy. Do you mind if I steal it for my own future game with Kenkus?

That's basically the only sensible way to interpret the idea that Data on Star Trek TNG "has no emptions"- yeah right, dude definitely doesn't, he just hasn't grown used to them yet

[Biggstick]

Speaking of media, does anyone not relate the Kenku to Michael Bay's Bumblebee (who lost his voice and can only communicate in sound fx and voice clips)

This is exactly how I relayed it to another player in my game. I think it works as a great way to describe how Kenkus communicate and how it would go in my game.

[Grey Watcher]

One could argue the lack of creativity means they can't just pull singular words together, unless they've heard those specific words by themselves. That is, if they hear you say "I started a fire", they can't just say "fire" in your voice, but that seems to limit the use of their Mimic ability significantly. You couldn't really do impersonations like that, unless you followed a mark for months or even years. On the other hand, your party could teach a Kenku a ton of individual words if that were the case. They'd just sound like a mix board of their friends when they talked.

Second thought, if a Kenku can't put a unique sentence together, that implies they can't attach specific meaning to words, noises, or phrases. "*thunder* and that's when I told him- *three wolves howling* *sound of a bar fight at the Green Fern Inn*" can't mean anything, because that would be a unique sentence. So, Kenku fluff is just horribly unspecific enough that they can't actually communicate anything other than ideas they've already heard. So the way the curse should read (if you want them to talk ever), is something like "Kenku do not have voices. They can, however, repeat any noise they have heard and construct language in this manner." For the extremely strict interpretation "They cannot fragment noises to communicate ideas, so even simple sentences like 'Let's makes camp' can only be said if they have heard that exact phrase before".

Going along with the idea in other posts that the "no/negligible creativity" thing is more of a phobia, psychological block, or similar catch-22, maybe the voiceless thing means that, while they could take the sounds of people saying "Let's", "make", and "camp", the result would be stilted and weird. Even if they've heard the same person say each word, the inflections, pitches, and such aren't likely to line up properly to create a natural sounding sentence. And, unless the Kenku in question has made a point of studying humanoid speech, chopping up words into even finer chunks to find all the bits you need is probably barely possible. (And even for Kenku Higgins, it doesn't exactly roll off the... do birds have tongues?)

For that matter, maybe Kenku just have some neurological quirk (related to the curse or not) that prevents them from understanding language the way we do. So, like the baby/young toddler from an anecdote I heard during my psychology minor in college, they might know that "I'll get it," when called across a room, means the speaker is responding to a doorbell, phone, or similar and that the listeners need not bother, but they don't understand the pieces and how to break them apart and use them in different contexts.

EDIT: I apologize that I ended up reiterating points more exactly than I realized. Reading comprehension was not my strong suit yesterday, apparently.:smallfrown:

[Finback]

Keep in mind that Volo's Guide is written by Volo who is not an omniscient narrator.

Nor is he necessarily a *reliable* narrator either.

[Regitnui]

Nor is he necessarily a *reliable* narrator either.

I think the spark of creativity thing was also written in the MM, which we all know was written by the illithids running Wot- *shlorp* by the highly talented game developers of wizards of the coast(tm). Keep buying official wizards of the coast products.