3.5e I need help with optimizing a Spirit Shaman.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hello everyone :)

I have a mission, and I need your help:

I need to find a why to make Spirit Shaman over-powered for the game we just started because I was to weak and it will be the only spell caster we will have.

The character will start at level 4.
It can be human, half-elf or halfling(no tamplets).
There are no magic items.
2 flaws are allowed.
No arcana.
28 point buy
All 3.5e books are allowed.
He will need to be focus on spell casting(we don't want a gish).

I am searching for a why to make it work and I will really like to get your help :)




BTW:
If you do help please add the book name.

[Zaq]

Spirit Shaman is anything but overpowered at level 4. You have an extremely limited number of spells retrieved per day, so you can only really accomplish one or two things at a time. You need to make sure that every single spell you retrieve is something that will serve you well multiple times over the course of the day. You can't really afford to have "just in case" spells quite yet. And if you're the only caster in the party, well, that's going to be kind of tricky.

Long-term, Spirit Shaman optimization basically consists of finding ways to get additional spells, which usually comes down to domains. Holt Warden and Contemplative won't be available to you for quite a few levels, but you might consider starting to build in that direction.

Once you've got enough levels that you can afford to have a good mix of combat spells and utility spells and miscellaneous spells all at once, things are going to look very different for you. But for the time being, you're going to have to focus on making sure that you don't run out of options before you run out of challenges, so you're going to look pretty generic for a while.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I swear I saw this exact same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516306-3-5e-I-need-your-help-to-brake-the-game-with-a-Spirit-Shaman)...

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I swear I saw this exact same thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516306-3-5e-I-need-your-help-to-brake-the-game-with-a-Spirit-Shaman)...

I know.

people didn't understand what I was asking so I opened a new thread(I use some terms that people hear aren't familiar with).

[Khedrac]

You can be pretty effective at low levels, but it requires a fair bit of good luck in picking spells. For example, entangle is a great crowd-control spell - but only if there are plants in the area.

Possibly your best route to decent power at low levels is summoning - the Summon Nature's Ally list is pretty good, especially the hippogryph from SNAII.
Your problem is healing, it's not somethign you are more than "OK" at and very hard for you to do both that and dominate the battlefield.
On that front try to get your DM to let the party get healing belts (for everyone) and stock up on goodberries the day before you go adventuring. Then you can (reasonably safely) skip healing spells for the dungeon itself.

I would advise checking out the various druid handbooks for their spell selections, most of the advice applies to you too (what you ignore is stuff to boost wildshape and animal companions).

Looking at your situation:


I need to find a way to make Spirit Shaman over-powered for the game we just started because I was too weak and it will be the only spell caster we will have.

The character will start at level 4.
It can be human, half-elf or halfling (no templates).
There are no magic items.
2 flaws are allowed.
No arcana.
28 point buy
All 3.5e books are allowed.
He will need to be focus on spell casting (we don't want a gish).
I have no idea what you mean by "No arcana".
With that race list choose human - you want the extra feat.
"No magic items" - point out to your DM that either you will be spending 90% of your spells on healing (though see earlier comment on goodberry) and thus be useless for everything else (so much for being over-powered) or he will have to downgrade the opposition. By level 4 the party should have a reasonable amount of magic and the game is scaled to this.

Good luck.

[ATHATH]

I think he means no Unearthed Arcana.

Consider being a Strongheart Halfling; they get a bonus feat as well.

Wasn't there a Human variant that traded the bonus feat for two +2's to different stats (of your choice)?

[Sian]

I have no idea what you mean by "No arcana".

Wild random 'off-the-hip' guess would be Unearthed Arcana ... which is kinda hilarious since he then flips around and says Flaws are allowed (and IIRC flaws is UA only, we count Dragon Mag)

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You can be pretty effective at low levels, but it requires a fair bit of good luck in picking spells. For example, entangle is a great crowd-control spell - but only if there are plants in the area.

Possibly your best route to decent power at low levels is summoning - the Summon Nature's Ally list is pretty good, especially the hippogryph from SNAII.
Your problem is healing, it's not somethign you are more than "OK" at and very hard for you to do both that and dominate the battlefield.
On that front try to get your DM to let the party get healing belts (for everyone) and stock up on goodberries the day before you go adventuring. Then you can (reasonably safely) skip healing spells for the dungeon itself.

I would advise checking out the various druid handbooks for their spell selections, most of the advice applies to you too (what you ignore is stuff to boost wildshape and animal companions).

Looking at your situation:

I have no idea what you mean by "No arcana".
With that race list choose human - you want the extra feat.
"No magic items" - point out to your DM that either you will be spending 90% of your spells on healing (though see earlier comment on goodberry) and thus be useless for everything else (so much for being over-powered) or he will have to downgrade the opposition. By level 4 the party should have a reasonable amount of magic and the game is scaled to this.

Good luck.
The Gm build the world, the scaling will be good(we do get some magic items(not Core, DM made).
I forgot that we do get scrolls and can make scrolls(isn't it solve the number of spells problem?).


I think he means no Unearthed Arcana.

Consider being a Strongheart Halfling; they get a bonus feat as well.

Wasn't there a Human variant that traded the bonus feat for two +2's to different stats (of your choice)?
Where can I find this variant?is it 3.5e?
(I hope I will find it).

Wild random 'off-the-hip' guess would be Unearthed Arcana ... which is kinda hilarious since he then flips around and says Flaws are allowed (and IIRC flaws is UA only, we count Dragon Mag)

No Arcana means that I can't use any arcana magic, I can use only divine.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Having played Spirit Shaman a lot I gotta ask; are you locked in? With that race selection and such a low point but you are gonna struggle to be an effective caster. You need a high Charisma in order to make sure your save DCs keep relevant, but you still need a peg a 19 Wisdom and you will need to accept you aren't getting high level bonus spells at all.

That being said looking at Eggynack's guide to druid is a good start to spell selection. Remember, though, that you don't have an animal companion and you rely on retrieved spells, so you will want to be very careful selecting spells. Long duration once and done spells are a bad choice since they cost a lot of spells retrieved. Druid's have some amazing selection for BFC so focus on that. You are in the worst of both worlds for metamagic so I would not recommend those, but Dragon Magazine has some feats designed specifically for Spirit Shaman that are interesting. I am not sure if Dragon Magazine is on the table here unfortunately, but if it is I will try to dig those up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Beg your DM on bended knee to add the spirit ally spells to the shaman spell list. They ought to be there anyway but a designer got lazy. It won't help before mid-levels (barring the odd scroll) but it is a -powerful- spell, on a par with the more infamous planar ally spells.

Beyond that, yeah, I'm with the others saying to look to eggy's druid handbook for spell selection advice and to be sure to pick ones that are spammable since you're getting them in a semi-spontaneous fashion.

Contemplative can grab you a domain or three for extra spell options in the mid and late game.

Check out the summoner's desk reference (just use the forum's search bar) for tips on pulling full power out of SNA if you wanna go that route.

[eggynack]

Worth note is that the spirit shaman list is kinda different from the druid list. Losing out on an animal companion and wild shape reduces the power of single target combat buffs. Lacking the animal companion and summoning mostly kills animal growth. No wild shape means no enhance wild shape. It means that you need to scrounge around for a flight spell, and can't just rely on it for swimming or burrowing either (though heart of water is great for the former). The paucity of spells retrieved, including the lack of spontaneous conversion, means you can't make use of quite so many second or third order utility and buff spells. Heart of water, primal instincts, and that's where you get cut off until 11th level. You're rarely if ever going to have the space for wind wall, or even something lower level like an instant of power.

This isn't to say it's a completely different situation. A lot of the best spells are still the best spells. Entangle and impeding stones are as effective as ever, kelpstrand still very much does its thing, control winds never stops being control winds, and fey ring always offers crazy wacky utility. But a lot of my assessment is inevitably premised on a lot of druid specific stuff, and there are limits to how applicable the information can be to a class that is in some ways radically different, even as so much remains the same. So, take things with a grain of salt, y'know?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The character will start at level 4.
It can be human, half-elf or halfling(no tamplets).
There are no magic items.
2 flaws are allowed.
No arcana.
28 point buy
All 3.5e books are allowed.
He will need to be focus on spell casting(we don't want a gish).

You asked about the Strongheart Halfling, it can be found in the book Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 18. It's the same as the Player's Handbook Halfling, but you don't get the +1 bonus to all saving throws, and you instead get a bonus feat at 1st level like a Human gets.

I'd still recommend going Human over that for the bonus skill ranks, or Silverbrow Human in the book Dragon Magic for the dragonblood subtype if you decide you want to take a feat that requires that.

No published magic items available because the DM will be custom designing all magic items should be fine. You'll lose out on a lot of good choices, but I'm sure your DM will make up for it with interesting new items.

Two flaws is pretty good, since most of the character's customization will be from feats. I'd recommend Love of Nature from Dragon magazine issue 324, page 93. Noncombatant in UA is also a pretty good choice for a primary spellcaster, but avoid Shaky as there are too many ranged touch spells. If you can't use Dragon magazine flaws, Murky-Eyed in UA is also a decent choice.

You won't need any arcane magic, so that's no problem.

28 point buy: Your Wisdom will limit how high of a spell level you can cast, and determines bonus spells, while Charisma is used for saving throw DCs. I'd go something like Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 14.


Feat: Greenbound Summoning in Lost Empires of Faerun is going to add the most power to this character. It allows you to add the Greenbound template to any animals you summon using Summon Nature's Ally. There's no minimum caster level for spell-like abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities), so even a Greenbound Dire Rat can use Wall of Thorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) to make two 10-by-10-by-5-foot squares that will trap any creature occupying the space they're cast in, which lasts a hundred rounds. That basically gets you a 5th level spell out of a 1st level slot, and it's one of the strongest obstacles and one of the strongest crowd controls you'll find. Greenbound animals are significantly more durable than standard ones, so your summons are almost guaranteed to last the full duration of the spell, which allows them to contribute more and you'll get more value out of those spells.

Feat: Spontaneous Summoner in Complete Divine allows you to spend your spell slots to cast Summon Nature's Ally spells of the same level without selecting those as spells you've retrieved for that day. This basically adds one extra spell retrieved per spell level, though the number of times you use those is limited to your wisdom bonus.

Feat: Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that's one level higher. This allows you to spend two 2nd level spell slots to cast Summon Nature's Ally III if you have Spontaneous Summoner, even if you don't have any 3rd level spell slots. You won't need to do that very often, but being able to spend 0-level spell slots on 1st level spells on top of the versatility it adds makes it worth taking.

Feat: Fiery Burst in Complete Mage will allow you to have some damage output without spending spell slots, this would need be your 3rd level feat. You'll need to retrieve a 2nd level or higher fire spell every day to use it, and be sure to keep a 2nd level spell slot unspent (or two 1st levels with Versatile Spellcaster). Heat Metal is probably a good spell to keep retrieved to use this, as it can also be used to cause an opponent to drop their weapon (it worked on Aragorn in Fangorn Forest).

Feat: Extend Spell in the Player's Handbook can be useful for making buffs on your party last twice as long. You can also use it with the spell Creeping Cold in Spell Compendium to deal 21d6 damage over six rounds, even at your current level (with Versatile Spellcaster). Normally a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend would be used for this, but with no published magic items available taking the feat and using it normally is an acceptable alternative.


Spell Compendium has quite a few spells you're going to want to keep retrieved:

Wall of Smoke (1st) can be cast across opponents' spaces to force them to immediately save vs becoming nauseated. Creative positioning of it, particularly turning it horizontally, can make it just as effective as Stinking Cloud in the low levels.

Sandblast (1st) is useful if you're finding yourself surrounded by enemies often, but you don't want to use it when allies are nearby. Keep in mind that stunned opponents automatically drop anything they're holding, such as weapons, shields that aren't a buckler, spell components, divine focus, wands, etc.

Vigor, Lesser (1st) will probably heal more damage than Cure Light Wounds, but it's best used on a wand, assuming you can still get those.

Kelpstrand (2nd) is an extremely effective crowd control at every character level, since it scales so well. You make a grapple check against affected opponents, but instead of using BAB + Str + Size you use BAB + Wis + Caster Level which can easily outpace creatures of an appropriate CR. It's still going to be less effective against especially large/strong opponents, but anything that's not naturally superb at grappling will be easily subdued by it.

Creeping Cold (2nd) is the most damaging spells at low levels when used with Extend Spell.

Splinterbolt (2nd) is a decent damage spell that's comparable to Scorching Ray, but this has a disadvantage of making an attack roll against the target's full AC, rather than touch AC.

Resist Energy, Mass (3rd) is one you'll probably want to keep handy if possible, since it efficiently prevents your party from taking a significant amount of damage in the right situations.


There's also Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) which makes your character just as good at turning undead as a Cleric. I'll usually recommend putting Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on the spell focus so it lasts 365 times longer, but no items means you'll just need to keep an eye out for an alternative. Being able to make it last days/weeks/months at a time allows you to cast it a bunch during downtime and carry the bone talismans with you in case you need them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Had a couple more thoughts.

Reserve feats aren't great but for a SS they might go a little further than normal.

There's a feat in CD called spontaneous summoner that gives you a limited version of the druid ability to cast SNA by sac'ing other spells. Not sure how well it interacts with the SS's weird casting mechanic but it might be worth a look.

[Lilapop]

The Gm build the world, the scaling will be good(we do get some magic items(not Core, DM made).
I forgot that we do get scrolls and can make scrolls(isn't it solve the number of spells problem?).

Wasn't there a Human variant that traded the bonus feat for two +2's to different stats (of your choice)?
Where can I find this variant?is it 3.5e?
(I hope I will find it).
Pretty sure said human variant are the Illumians from Races of Destiny. They don't directly get increased attribute values, but get +1s to attribute related checks or other benefits like casterlevel.

Pathfinder humans would also fit that description I think.

[Grim Reader]

Spontaneous healer also increases your spells retrieved if you want in-combate healing. No generally optimized though.

There used to be this weird trick with the Spirit Shaman that let you get -2 metamagic cost on all spells of a single school. Mostly Conjuration. It had something to do with the SS weird spell retrieval mechanism, and setting some variable when you chose spells retrieved. Can't quite remember what it was though :(

[ATHATH]

Pretty sure said human variant are the Illumians from Races of Destiny. They don't directly get increased attribute values, but get +1s to attribute related checks or other benefits like casterlevel.

Pathfinder humans would also fit that description I think.
Nope, I wasn't.

Hm... I might have been thinking of a different edition (or it might have been homebrew). I think it had something to do with decadence?