Is the Tarrasque depowered? What else has shifted in scope of power?

[Typhon]

Looking through threads, and someone mentioned taking down a Tarrasqe with a 10-11th level character was possible while using a group of 4-5. I always understood the Tarrasque to be the one monster that terrified other monsters, akin to actually fighting Godzilla.

But looking over the 5e rendering I feel like they downsized and depowered the Tarrasque. Granted things change, but I feel this version is the little b***h compared to previous versions.

It doesn't really have an effect on anything, I just thought it was odd and wondered if there were some other creatures that are seemingly on a different power scale than previous. If so what are they and what changed that bothers you?

[HolyDraconus]

The removal of colossal and the dragon only colossal + sizes. Everything that was in those sizes but was downgraded.

[Bahamut7]

Not to mention Bounded Accuracy. Even the monsters have to fit into this category. So yes, the big guy is able to be taken down by levels that normally would have a problem.

[toapat]

Not to mention Bounded Accuracy. Even the monsters have to fit into this category. So yes, the big guy is able to be taken down by levels that normally would have a problem.

Note: someone figured out how to kill the Tarrasque at lvl 1 in 3.5

[Typhon]

Note: someone figured out how to kill the Tarrasque at lvl 1 in 3.5

This I would love to hear. Especially how they got a wish or miracle spell at that level, and overcame spell resistance.

[King539]

Note: someone figured out how to kill the Tarrasque at lvl 1 in 3.5

Possible in 5e. BRING OUT THE AARACOKRA WARLOCKS!!!

[JackPhoenix]

The Tarrasque is overhyped. It's a bag of hitpoints that's tough and hits hard in melee, but it's stupid and lack any interesting abilities. Flying or higher speed and ranged attacks were always its bane. In 3.5, it lacked immunity to ability damage drain, and it's attacks weren't magic. Allip (undead spirit of creature driven to suicide by madness) was incorporeal, so the Tarrasque couldn't hurt it, and it caused Wisdom drain with its attacks. Tarrasque had pretty low wisdom score. Ability drain is permanent, creature with Wisdom 0 is catatonic. There were ways to get Control Undead spell as level 1 character.

[Typhon]

Some might argue that the fact you needed +5 enchantment to hit it meant that its strikes counted as +5 weapons. Similar to how most supernatural creatures, monsters, and monks have their unarmed strikes act as enchanted weapons.

Not too belittle the fact that outside of epic/template add-ons it was one of the most defensively built creatures in the game.

[toapat]

This I would love to hear. Especially how they got a wish or miracle spell at that level, and overcame spell resistance.

1: you dont need miracle or wish to cripple the 3.5 tarrasque to having no actions.

2: this is the only time someone has been able to optimize the character's name.

3: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?365674-Madness-Tarrasquekiller-Slaying-the-Tarrasque-as-a-1st-level-commoner)

[DragonSorcererX]

Well, if we want to use bugs of the game... anyone with Wishlacrum can kill the Tarrasque "alone".

[toapat]

Well, if we want to use bugs of the game... anyone with Wishlacrum can kill the Tarrasque "alone".

thats not a lvl 1 doing it though

[Socratov]

on topic, I find dragons to have been screwed over this edition, as well as other previously near epic enemies from 3.5...

and most of that has to do with innate casting

[DragonSorcererX]

thats not a lvl 1 doing it though

Still, it is just one Level 17 Character/CR 12 NPC against a Gargantuan CR 30 Legendary Monster...

[ShikomeKidoMi]

The Tarrasque is overhyped. It's a bag of hitpoints that's tough and hits hard in melee, but it's stupid and lack any interesting abilities.

It had one interesting ability. The ability to reflect lines and rays back at the caster was sort of neat. And... That's it. Well, it could charge at high speed every so often but that's less 'interesting' and more 'patches a hole in its abilities in a workmanlike fashion'.

[Typhon]

on topic, I find dragons to have been screwed over this edition, as well as other previously near epic enemies from 3.5...

and most of that has to do with innate casting

Thank you for trying to bring us back on point.

I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it, but yeah. Dragons always had great magic. To the fact that they put out a book in a previous edition strictly based on dragon magic. That stinks.

[toapat]

Thank you for trying to bring us back on point.

I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it, but yeah. Dragons always had great magic. To the fact that they put out a book in a previous edition strictly based on dragon magic. That stinks.

i think theres 2 different paths of argument that need to come to concensus:

When is the Tarrasque "invalid" for a challenge, and when in previous editions was it invalid as a challenge.

Well, i already brought up that the Tarrasque in 3.5 was killable at lvl 1 with the Cheesiest of exploits, without exploits its killable at lvl 3, and by lvl 10 in that edition its irrelevant.

So, in 5th Ed, when does the Tarrasque go from "God" to "Badass"?

[Typhon]

i think theres 2 different paths of argument that need to come to concensus:

When is the Tarrasque "invalid" for a challenge, and when in previous editions was it invalid as a challenge.

Well, i already brought up that the Tarrasque in 3.5 was killable at lvl 1 with the Cheesiest of exploits, without exploits its killable at lvl 3, and by lvl 10 in that edition its irrelevant.

So, in 5th Ed, when does the Tarrasque go from "God" to "Badass"?

Not trying to drag out the Tarrasque forever. I just thought it was a good starting point for the thread. It lost regeneration, and evidently has became mostly a joke of contention to see which munchkin plan of insanity could kill it earlier by trying to metagame the snot out of it, most of which probably wouldn't work even with the absolute most lenient of DMs. Just the loss of a hallmark ability, regeneration, made me wonder what others were missing from certain favorite monsters this edition.

[Dr. Cliché]

Losing Regeneration was the worst thing for me. Not least because it means stuff like this (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2rtwn3/the_city_built_around_the_tarrasque/)is no longer possible.

The lack of regeneration also seems to cripple the Tarrasque entirely. I thought the whole point was that, even if you could take it down, you couldn't make it stay down unless you had access to godly levels of magic.

Without regeneration, it's just a sack of hp that can be worn down and killed like any other beast (except there's only one of it).


Anyway, in terms of other stuff, I think a lot of monsters suffered not from losing power per se but from losing options. Why did dragons and demons basically lose all their casting abilities? Why did so many monsters have all their fun and interesting abilities stripped?

Even in terms of streamlining this makes no sense. A Pit Fiend or dragon isn't like a standard mook. These are supposed to be epic boss fights - not just another sack of hp, no different to a bugbear that ate too many pies. These are monsters that should be able to rival the players in terms of combat options. Instead, all we have is a bunch of enemies that are basically interchangeable. Dragons might as well be pallet-swapped for all the differences between them, whilst devils exhibit such thrilling designs and variations as 'a big, winged devil' and 'a bigger winged devil'.

[mgshamster]

Demons and devils all got power reductions. Most of them can't cast spells anymore, which makes the fights a lot less interesting.

Heck, even some of the Demon Lords are weakened just due to concentration rules.

[Deleted]

Note: someone figured out how to kill the Tarrasque at lvl 1 in 3.5

Note: Without PunPun

Also Terrasque has always been a joke monster. They want a Kaiju but don't realize you are putting superman up against 1998 America Godzilla.

They need to just take Sin from FF X and convert it into the next Terrasque.

Takes care of most of the problems with Terrasque.

You can kill* it in 5e by level 10 (maybe earlier)

*I forget, can you kill it or does it just go to sleep?

[Unoriginal]

I don't see how having less spells make monsters less interesting. To paraphrase a certain awesome redhead Rogue, it's more a lateral change than a loss.

Now, the question we have to ask ourselves is: are those monsters weaker in this edition than they were in previous ones, or are they are weaker in this edition COMPARED to what they were in previous ones.

Or, to be more clear: are those monsters less of a challenge for 5e characters than their equivalents were for 3.X or 4e characters, or do they just seem weaker compared to the abilities that their equivalents in 3.X or 4e?


I mean, take the 5e's Archmage, for exemple: the stats give them 20 INT, and they only have access to one spell for each level in-between the 6th and the 9th.

For a 3.X wizard, it's pretty anemic. For a 5e wizard, the Archmage is pretty close of the pinacle of arcanic might.


Same way for the Balor: if you look at the 26 STR in term of how easy it was for 3.X characters to reach it, then yes, the Balor might look whimpy. But 26 STR in 5e is way more powerful than 26 STR in 3.X was, in their respective context.

[Dr. Cliché]

I don't see how having less spells make monsters less interesting. To paraphrase a certain awesome redhead Rogue, it's more a lateral change than a loss.

:smallconfused:

I'd suggest that "a certain awsome redhead rogue" should invest in a dictionary.

In order for it to be a lateral change, the spells would have to be replaced with something else. For example, if devils lost most/all of their spells but instead got a slew of new supernatural abilities, that would be a lateral change.

Instead, they've lost their spells and gained absolutely nothing in exchange. So, no, it's not a lateral change - i's just a loss.

As to why it makes them less interesting, because spells give them more options. A dragon without spells can attack with it's claws/bite/wings/tail or it make a breath weapon attack. A dragon with spells can make a magical attack. Or it can turn invisible. Or it can teleport. Or it can buff/protect itself magically. Or it can shut down enemy casting. etc.

Put simply, spells give a creature vastly more options than it would otherwise have. This helps make it more than just a sack of hp and also adds new dimensions to a fight.

[DragonSorcererX]

:smallconfused:

I'd suggest that "a certain awsome redhead rogue" should invest in a dictionary.

In order for it to be a lateral change, the spells would have to be replaced with something else. For example, if devils lost most/all of their spells but instead got a slew of new supernatural abilities, that would be a lateral change.

Instead, they've lost their spells and gained absolutely nothing in exchange. So, no, it's not a lateral change - i's just a loss.

As to why it makes them less interesting, because spells give them more options. A dragon without spells can attack with it's claws/bite/wings/tail or it make a breath weapon attack. A dragon with spells can make a magical attack. Or it can turn invisible. Or it can teleport. Or it can buff/protect itself magically. Or it can shut down enemy casting. etc.

Put simply, spells give a creature vastly more options than it would otherwise have. This helps make it more than just a sack of hp and also adds new dimensions to a fight.

A 5e Dragon with buffing spells and stuff like greater invisibility becomes a whole new level of threat... in fact, with that monstruous intelligence that most of the dragons have and with powerful buffing spells, they become almost immortal unless they give in for any kind of honor and pride, and don't flee from battle when nescessary...

[Deleted]

A 5e Dragon with buffing spells and stuff like greater invisibility becomes a whole new level of threat... in fact, with that monstruous intelligence that most of the dragons have and with powerful buffing spells, they become almost immortal unless they give in for any kind of honor and pride, and don't flee from battle when nescessary...

That's exactly the kind of attitude that leads to them not being almost immortal.

Also, how do you explain Dragon Sorcerers getting access to all those spells when dragons don't have access to all those spells? The whole point of sorcerers in 5e is "your blood makes you magic" so.... Yeah...

[mgshamster]

I don't see how having less spells make monsters less interesting. To paraphrase a certain awesome redhead Rogue, it's more a lateral change than a loss.

Now, the question we have to ask ourselves is: are those monsters weaker in this edition than they were in previous ones, or are they are weaker in this edition COMPARED to what they were in previous ones.

Or, to be more clear: are those monsters less of a challenge for 5e characters than their equivalents were for 3.X or 4e characters, or do they just seem weaker compared to the abilities that their equivalents in 3.X or 4e?


I mean, take the 5e's Archmage, for exemple: the stats give them 20 INT, and they only have access to one spell for each level in-between the 6th and the 9th.

For a 3.X wizard, it's pretty anemic. For a 5e wizard, the Archmage is pretty close of the pinacle of arcanic might.


Same way for the Balor: if you look at the 26 STR in term of how easy it was for 3.X characters to reach it, then yes, the Balor might look whimpy. But 26 STR in 5e is way more powerful than 26 STR in 3.X was, in their respective context.

Yup; they're weaker even compared to the strength of the PCs. PCs of appropriate level can easily slaughter demons and devils.

I just finished running Out of the Abyss, and the only time demons were a challenge to my players is when I went way above the challenge rating for their level.

Where I really noticed it was the first time they had to fight a Nalfeshnee.

In the book, it says the Nalfeshnee is bored and likes to toy with his opponents, dragging the fight out and basking in their pain. This is a CR 13 demon.

Now, how do you do that against four level 9 PCs when the only way you can do damage is melee attacks? Also, the one magical ability is has you become immune to once you make your save. Now, he could have some fun with teleporting, but not in Out of the Abyss, due to the faezress. And even if it could, what would it do with it? Can't attack from range.

Compare that creature to the Nalfeshnee in 2e. There, he had god-like intelligence, was able to cast a variety of spells (alter self, bind, call lightning, chill touch, detect invisibility (always active), distance distortion, ESP (always active), feeblemind, forget, giant insect, invisibility, know alignment (always active), mirror image, protection from good (always active), raise dead, slow, and web), had a similar fear effect usable three times per day and opponents didn't become immune, and a 70% chance that it flat out ignores any spell cast on it.

And to top it off, you needed a cold iron weapon or a +2 or better to even hurt it.

Nowadays, it has resistance to non-magical BPS and some other damage, immunity to poison, advantage on spell saves, a fear effect usable once per day per opponent, teleport (as an action) and some melee attacks. No ranged attacks, so that teleport doesn't really help it unless it's trying to escape.

How is it supposed to harass and harry and cause pain when it can't do it from afar? How it is supposed to take advantage of its teleport when it requires an action? How is it supposed to be a big scary demon when it can't slough off damage and spells? Or when the only ability that actually causes fear can be of ore after one minute - even from a commoner?

It's only option is to get up close - and then get slaughtered by four PCs in an action economy imbalance.

It ain't a big scary demon. It's a sack of hit points with claw claw bite attached to it.

[Dr. Cliché]

A 5e Dragon with buffing spells and stuff like greater invisibility becomes a whole new level of threat... in fact, with that monstruous intelligence that most of the dragons have and with powerful buffing spells, they become almost immortal

Isn't that exactly what a dragon should be? :smalltongue:

[Deleted]

Isn't that exactly what a dragon should be? :smalltongue:

I like the idea that dragons may not be deities, but deities won't want to mess with a dragon on the material plane. Just like a dragon wouldnt want to mess with a deity in their home court.

I would remove bahamut and tiamat as deities and just make them really strong dragons. Slight difference but still a difference.

Clerics of Bahamut and Tiamat aren't divine casters, they are Warlocks.

[toapat]

Note: Without PunPun

maybe you should read punpun like 12 more times and learn that he cant actually do anything except become an overdeity at lvl 1, and read that topic i linked since it has nothing to do with anything except the apex predator of 3.5

[mgshamster]

maybe you should read punpun like 12 more times and learn that he cant actually do anything except become an overdeity at lvl 1, and read that topic i linked since it has nothing to do with anything except the apex predator of 3.5

I think you may have misread him.

You said, "Someone figured out how to kill the big bad with a level 1 PC."

And he said, "Yup! Also, it wasn't even pun-pun!"

[Deleted]

I think you may have misread him.

You said, "Someone figured out how to kill the big bad with a level 1 PC."

And he said, "Yup! Also, it wasn't even pun-pun!"

Yup, just adding that it was done without Pun-Pun for people who didn't want to click on the link.

Many people will see a claim of "x can kill OmegaAwesomeCreature" and dismiss it due to Pun-Pun shenanigans.

[Unoriginal]

Ah, yes, I forgot, beings who attack in melee are boring. They're just sacks of HP that constantly deal the same attacks over and over, right? And that's "boring".

[Dr. Cliché]

They need to just take Sin from FF X and convert it into the next Terrasque.

I haven't played FF X. Could you elaborate on what Sin would be like as a D&D monster?



*I forget, can you kill it or does it just go to sleep?

You can kill it.

Neither its mechanics nor its fluff suggest that it is anything other than mortal.

[mgshamster]

Ah, yes, I forgot, beings who attack in melee are boring. They're just sacks of HP that constantly deal the same attacks over and over, right? And that's "boring".

For a monster that's supposed to be a big scary demon? Yes, absolutely.

Context. You're ignoring it.

[Dr. Cliché]

Ah, yes, I forgot, beings who attack in melee are boring. They're just sacks of HP that constantly deal the same attacks over and over, right? And that's "boring".

Yeah, you're right. Makes me wonder why they even bother with spells and abilities on player classes, really. Clearly all anyone needs is some hp and the ability to hit stuff in melee. That'll never get boring or repetitive, right?

And these monsters, some of them can hit stuff in melee with different parts of their bodies. That's like 5 campaigns worth of excitement right there.

[Unoriginal]

For a monster that's supposed to be a big scary demon? Yes, absolutely.

Context. You're ignoring it.

You're the one ignoring context. Fighting a gorilla-boar-bird demon who uses their great intellect and physical might in order to humiliate and destroy their foes isn't more boring if the demon tries to claw the PC's skin off than if they're staying away and throwing rays of fire at them, or making them laugh with a mental power to distract them.

A Nalfeshnee could easily become a nightmare or a memorable encounter. Have them use flight to charge at the PCs, and then take off. Have them grab the Fighter, then fly as high as possible, before letting the guy drop, or use their head to paint the walls red while they struggle to escape from the demon's grip, even if they know they'll be badly injured by the fall. Or have the Nalfeshnee targets the Wizard, appearing next to them and attacking their focus to cripple their spellcasting abilities. Or have them fly above the Bard and let themselves on the magic musician with all their putrid weight. Or have them go toe-to-toe with the Druid's animal form, strangling the animal while positioning both combatants so that they're hidden from the attacks of the Druid's buddies by the Druid's body.

Of course, if you go just "duh, the guy just stands here and attacks you one after the other while you surround him. If he hits, he deals 15 damages", then any fight will be boring.

[Deleted]

I haven't played FF X. Could you elaborate on what Sin would be like as a D&D monster?



You can kill it.

Neither its mechanics nor its fluff suggest that it is anything other than mortal.

Big T used to not be killable (it went to sleep when reduced to 0 HP and had regen and fluff that supported not being killable) which lead to players inventing ways to capture said monster in a small box lined with spikes...

But Sin!

Ok, so FF X isn't my favorite of the series but its a pretty good game with some pretty great parts.

Some info and spoilers in this link and below

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sin

https://youtu.be/AsMm524wh9k

A video of the gravity ball attack (has some extra gameplay cutscene stuff too)


Sin is what you get when you cross 3.5 Terrasque with Godzilla and a deity. This thing is massive on the scale of needing an airship and jumping on it to take out specific points before they can have a final fight with it.

Also, my friend pointed out that cloverfield is a combo of Godzilla and Sin.


This thing can make sin spawn, which are fiends (monsters) that range from simple to defeat to full on boss battles.

Has a laser cannon gravity/ki attack that makes goku look like Yamcha (sin just doesn't want to destroy the planet or I bet he could)

Just touching sin can send you through time and space and make you lose your memory. Hallucinations is another issue with getting too close.

Oh if you didn't click the links, did I mention it can fly? This thing controls gravity.

Yeah, it ain't no slouch.

Soooo making this into a fightable monster wouldn't be that tough. You first need a ritual to lull it into a sort of sedation so it will drop its defenses a bit.

First off, Sin can't be reduced to 0 HP. Any effect that reduces sin to 0 HP instead reduces it to 1 HP. Sin is also colossal+++.

You need to convince everyone in the world (or most of them) to help with said ritual.

You then would need to have a way to defend against its toxins and stuff. You need to defend against its random teleportation memory wipe effect (planeshift when touched, false memory ability).

It can create different CR creatures as an action. I would say 20 minions, 10 moderate, and 1 boss per short rest? That might not be enough though.

Gravity attack would just be a pure energy attack.

You have to fight different points (arm, arm, and back) which are each deadly fights in order to hit weak points.

Once you hit all three of these points Sin is paralyzed for 10 minutes... At this time you may venture inside sin. At the end of 10 minutes Sin is considered to have had a long rest. From the back to the mouth would normally take an hour to traverse so you need alternative modes of transportation.

Inside sin is a gauntlet of enemies (or sinemies) where you eventually fight a Lich, a Barbarian demigod, and finally you fight the thing controlling sin which will be a let down of a final fight.

[Dr. Cliché]

Big T used to not be killable (it went to sleep when reduced to 0 HP and had regen and fluff that supported not being killable) which lead to players inventing ways to capture said monster in a small box lined with spikes...

But Sin!

Ok, so FF X isn't my favorite of the series but its a pretty good game with some pretty great parts.

Some info and spoilers in this link and below

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Sin

https://youtu.be/AsMm524wh9k

A video of the gravity ball attack (has some extra gameplay cutscene stuff too)


Sin is what you get when you cross 3.5 Terrasque with Godzilla and a deity. This thing is massive on the scale of needing an airship and jumping on it to take out specific points before they can have a final fight with it.

Also, my friend pointed out that cloverfield is a combo of Godzilla and Sin.


This thing can make sin spawn, which are fiends (monsters) that range from simple to defeat to full on boss battles.

Has a laser cannon gravity/ki attack that makes goku look like Yamcha (sin just doesn't want to destroy the planet or I bet he could)

Just touching sin can send you through time and space and make you lose your memory. Hallucinations is another issue with getting too close.

Oh if you didn't click the links, did I mention it can fly? This thing controls gravity.

Yeah, it ain't no slouch.

Soooo making this into a fightable monster wouldn't be that tough. You first need a ritual to lull it into a sort of sedation so it will drop its defenses a bit.

First off, Sin can't be reduced to 0 HP. Any effect that reduces sin to 0 HP instead reduces it to 1 HP. Sin is also colossal+++.

You need to convince everyone in the world (or most of them) to help with said ritual.

You then would need to have a way to defend against its toxins and stuff. You need to defend against its random teleportation memory wipe effect (planeshift when touched, false memory ability).

It can create different CR creatures as an action. I would say 20 minions, 10 moderate, and 1 boss per short rest? That might not be enough though.

Gravity attack would just be a pure energy attack.

You have to fight different points (arm, arm, and back) which are each deadly fights in order to hit weak points.

Once you hit all three of these points Sin is paralyzed for 10 minutes... At this time you may venture inside sin. At the end of 10 minutes Sin is considered to have had a long rest. From the back to the mouth would normally take an hour to traverse so you need alternative modes of transportation.

Inside sin is a gauntlet of enemies (or sinemies) where you eventually fight a Lich, a Barbarian demigod, and finally you fight the thing controlling sin which will be a let down of a final fight.

Wow, thanks for the writeup. That would indeed be pretty epic. :smallsmile:

I think what I like the most is that it can't be fought like a normal monster. You can't just wail on it until it runs out of hp. It actually feels massive in terms of its mechanics.

With regard to spawning monsters, what if it could do it every 10 minutes? This would enable it to spawn them more frequently (but still give players some respite between encounters), whilst also avoiding 'short rest', which I think would be a rather nebulous term when it comes to a creature of this power and scale.

Also, airships make everything better. :smallbiggrin:

[mgshamster]

. Have them use flight to charge at the PCs, and then take off.

And soak up all the opportunity attacks for leaving a threatened square. Also, the entire party attacks it from range, because it's flight speed isn't enough to get out of range of spells and arrows. This literally does nothing except grant the PCs one extra attack, each.

So while he's flying in, party attacks. When he's there's, party attacks. When he leaves, party gets OA. After he flies away, party attacks.


Have them grab the Fighter, then fly as high as possible, before letting the guy drop, or use their head to paint the walls red while they struggle to escape from the demon's grip, even if they know they'll be badly injured by the fall.

That's exactly what I did when I used it. Wizard cast fly on fighter. Fighter pummeled the demon with his long sword, not caring about the height while the rest of the party slung spells and attacked from range.


Or have the Nalfeshnee targets the Wizard, appearing next to them and attacking their focus to cripple their spellcasting abilities.

Teleport takes an action. So now there's a round of the entire party pounding on the demon, while the wizard just moves out of the way.

With that action taken away from teleporting, how is the Nalfeshnee going to target the spell focus and then get away before the attacks?


Or have them fly above the Bard and let themselves on the magic musician with all their putrid weight.

There's no damage for falling on someone in 5e. Also, the entire party can now just all attack and use spells.


Or have them go toe-to-toe with the Druid's animal form, strangling the animal while positioning both combatants so that they're hidden from the attacks of the Druid's buddies by the Druid's body.

There's no mechanic for this in 5e. Also, Nalfeshnee are large sized, so the druids body isn't going to provide full cover.

There's also no facing, and there no repeated moving an enemy from square to square to block allies from simply moving to the side to avoid the little cover provided.

And this is literally the next option you provided with fluff text added. He's just standing next to the druid doing one attack after the next.


Of course, if you go just "duh, the guy just stands here and attacks you one after the other while you surround him. If he hits, he deals 15 damages", then any fight will be boring.

This is literally half the suggestions you made with a bit of fluff text added, while also making the situation for the Nalfeshnee worse.

[Deleted]

Wow, thanks for the writeup. That would indeed be pretty epic. :smallsmile:

I think what I like the most is that it can't be fought like a normal monster. You can't just wail on it until it runs out of hp. It actually feels massive in terms of its mechanics.

With regard to spawning monsters, what if it could do it every 10 minutes? This would enable it to spawn them more frequently (but still give players some respite between encounters), whilst also avoiding 'short rest', which I think would be a rather nebulous term when it comes to a creature of this power and scale.

Also, airships make everything better. :smallbiggrin:

You're welcome!

I don't think I'm doing it justice though haha.

But I might make an "epic encounter: Sin" write up in more detail. It would be an entire adventure just to get the ritual, get everyone to do the ritual, find the right defense against sin, fight sin, and fight inside sin.

Yeah, there is no wailing on Sin. I always love boss fights (or boss lead ups) that don't just need you to wail on things. For a videogame, Sin is just a sack of HP when you get down to it... But for D&D it can be so much more.

My favorite boss lead up and boss fight is actually Final Fantasy VIII. The castle, the requirements to get your abilities, and the trolling the game does is all done just right. The fact that you can do the boss fight on "easy mode" if you like is also awesome (thanks to Triple Triad).

For sin, I think spawning every 10 minutes can work, though I think it should be more thematic than robotic. Just have the feature say "you can spawn X creatures as an action whenever you feel like it".

Honestly, if wotc wasnt stepping on eggshells and afraid of doing anything I would suggest they make a full book on Airship Combat versus monsters. Have it where you can control the airship with a bonus action (which you control the airship in X with a command) and you can either go Airship v Dragon OR use the shipship to attack while the PCs are on said dragon stabbing it.

[Unoriginal]

That's exactly what I did when I used it. Wizard cast fly on fighter. Fighter pummeled the demon with his long sword, not caring about the height while the rest of the party slung spells and attacked from range.

How did the Wizard cast Fly on the Fighter? It's a touch-range spell.



Teleport takes an action. So now there's a round of the entire party pounding on the demon, while the wizard just moves out of the way.

Don't have to teleport to "appear next to", but I admit I should have worded it differently.




There's no damage for falling on someone in 5e.

That's wrong. "A monster or effect typically specifies the amount of damage it deals. In some cases, though, you need to determine damage on the fly. The Improvising Damage table gives you suggestions for when you do so. " If a falling bookcase cause 1d10 damage, a Large fat demon is going to leave a dent.





There's no mechanic for this in 5e.

That's wrong

"COVER: To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover"

If you meant that there is no rules about strangling, it's a Grappling check leading to suffocation.

[mgshamster]

How did the Wizard cast Fly on the Fighter? It's a touch-range spell.



Don't have to teleport to "appear next to", but I admit I should have worded it differently.




That's wrong. "A monster or effect typically specifies the amount of damage it deals. In some cases, though, you need to determine damage on the fly. The Improvising Damage table gives you suggestions for when you do so. " If a falling bookcase cause 1d10 damage, a Large fat demon is going to leave a dent.





That's wrong

"COVER: To determine whether a target has cover against an attack or other effect on a grid, choose a corner of the attacker's space or the point of origin of an area of effect. Then trace imaginary lines from that corner to every corner of any one square the target occupies. If one or two of those lines are blocked by an obstacle (including another creature), the target has half cover"

If you meant that there is no rules about strangling, it's a Grappling check leading to suffocation.

You tell me I'm wrong and cut out the part of my post that specifically talks about cover.

You're not conversing in good faith.

[DragonSorcererX]

Isn't that exactly what a dragon should be? :smalltongue:

Well, in my world they will be like this, but that is because they almost exploded the world with their crazy magical power, and today they are aloof and they fear their own power (even evil dragons), that's why they only act through proxies if they even care to act... (this colorful and intelligent explanation just means: the boss is in the end of the dungeon :smalltongue:)

[pwykersotz]

I don't think I'm doing it justice though haha.

But I might make an "epic encounter: Sin" write up in more detail. It would be an entire adventure just to get the ritual, get everyone to do the ritual, find the right defense against sin, fight sin, and fight inside sin.

I have, several times, tried to draw up Sin. It always ends in me throwing up my hands and walking away though. Hopefully one of us will succeed one day and post it!

[Deleted]

I have, several times, tried to draw up Sin. It always ends in me throwing up my hands and walking away though. Hopefully one of us will succeed one day and post it!


I feel like you can't make Sin an encounter, you make Sin a campaign. Have the group fight sin/sinspawn over the course of the campaign as they are trying to get the world to come together and do the ritual.

This part would be VERY sandboxy as if one city's ruler doesn't want to go along with it, you may have to stage a coup. People are stupid and some people probably worship Sin.

Not to mention, they need to learn about Sin's weak points!

Or to find an airship, a pilot, and a crew!

If the players ever get too far off track, you have sin show up in the background and mess up a city or send out sinspawn.

Remember, some part of Sin wants you to succeed.

(just like the DM may be challenging players but also wants them to have fun and succeed)

You would need to break up the boss rush into Arm, Arm, and Back. Fighting Sin head on is just game over. If the players don't use the ritual and don't sneak around the sides of it... Sin just destroys them.

The arms would have triggers that have them move so that the PCs can attack the weak points.

The back would have tentacles blocking the weak point, each of them need to be hit with a specific type of damage in order for all of them to be able to be dropped to 0 damage. If you don't get rid of all the tentacles before attacking the weak point, more tentacles can spawn. Tentacles spawn at the start of Sin's turn. Another thing for the players to need and find out!

They may need to fight Sin more than once... If they aren't prepared!

[Knaight]

Back to topic: The power scale has been compressed relative to some previous editions. Working down the line and collapsing a lot of the early ones together the power scale roughly goes: 3e>4e>2e>5e>1e. Bounded accuracy, the removal of certain high powered options, and the streamlining of foes all reduced the high end of the power scale dramatically. With that said: before everyone takes this as a sign that high level 5e characters are wusses or pansies or whatever else the in vogue term is for characters who aren't staggeringly powerful by the standards of their setting, I'll take the time to point out that outside D&D it is very, very rare for characters to get anywhere near as capable as 5e characters at combat relative to the masses. Non combat skills are the one area where characters can be genuinely seen as shoddy, they remain ludicrously powerful warriors and warmages by any reasonable standard when compared to both fiction as a whole and RPGs as a whole.

[Unoriginal]

You tell me I'm wrong and cut out the part of my post that specifically talks about cover.

You're not conversing in good faith.

Sorry, I should have formated that differently. I was trying to highlight the use of other creatures as cover.

If you're still willing to talk, honestly, I'm curious about how the Fighter got Fly cast on him.


Back to topic: The power scale has been compressed relative to some previous editions. Working down the line and collapsing a lot of the early ones together the power scale roughly goes: 3e>4e>2e>5e>1e. Bounded accuracy, the removal of certain high powered options, and the streamlining of foes all reduced the high end of the power scale dramatically. With that said: before everyone takes this as a sign that high level 5e characters are wusses or pansies or whatever else the in vogue term is for characters who aren't staggeringly powerful by the standards of their setting, I'll take the time to point out that outside D&D it is very, very rare for characters to get anywhere near as capable as 5e characters at combat relative to the masses. Non combat skills are the one area where characters can be genuinely seen as shoddy, they remain ludicrously powerful warriors and warmages by any reasonable standard when compared to both fiction as a whole and RPGs as a whole.


It should be pointed out that a lot of the reasons why solo monsters might seem weak against groups is that being inferior in number compared to your foes is pretty deadly in this edition, no matter if it's a lot of NPCs vs a few PCs or the reverse.

[Socratov]

I think giving back the greater demons and the older dragons their casting would be a great idea. Even if it's only as lair action or something.

What's more, last week I played a playtest of a wendigo (lvl 10 adventurers) which had not only attacks (fairly vicious ones even), but an at will fear effect (and none of that immune if saved successfully once) but spells as well. he gave us a really good run for our money with teleportation effects and greater invisibility but ultimately he felt a lot more as a real enemy: something really threatening beyond a bad die roll.

It's not like the monsters are suddenly unbound from action economy (though legendary actions or lair actions could most certainly supplement that) it just gives them more options to engage the party as well as make them more memorable.

As for sin, I loved the idea behind the game of Shadow of the Colossus (I haven't played it, lacking ownership of a playstation at the relevant time), not only does it give an interesting aspect of scale and epicness, but climbing up your enemy to stab it in the kidneys adds instant awesome. You don't even need water...

[Deleted]

As for sin, I loved the idea behind the game of Shadow of the Colossus (I haven't played it, lacking ownership of a playstation at the relevant time), not only does it give an interesting aspect of scale and epicness, but climbing up your enemy to stab it in the kidneys adds instant awesome. You don't even need water...

Honestly, not the greatest game out there, from a few points of view...

But the concept is amazing and with technology today... You could make a straight up perfect game with it.

So far, from what I've seen, Breath of the Wild will be using a similar mechanic but maybe not on such an epic scale.

There is so much videogames can teach table top players :p

But hey, the climb onto a bigger creature action is a thing in the DMG so it wouldn't be too hard to climb Big T and ride around.



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b6/34/51/b63451808861209ddacb66fea64c9323.jpg


This is the least offensive picture I found real fast...

[DragonSorcererX]

Well, one thing for super epic creature is to not give it stats... just make the pcs work hard and win it with some plot device like the Power of Friendship (Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama)!

[Deleted]

Well, one thing for super epic creature is to not give it stats... just make the pcs work hard and win it with some plot device like the Power of Friendship (Spirit Bomb/Genki Dama)!

You can give it stats, just make it where things like HP can't reach 0.

But as the HP goes lower, the monster changes tactics and stuff.

You could give it ridiculous numbers and then give triggers for stuff to happen. So if you have a Sin Tentacle that has 750 HP... Maybe hitting a critical on them causes them to be stunned for a certain number of rounds in which you can get past them safely and hit a weak point.

So you COULD nuke them... But there is other options.

Maybe using the Help Action does the same thing?

[Dr. Cliché]

You're welcome!

I don't think I'm doing it justice though haha.

Possibly not, but it's still great inspiration for how to work battles against extremely large and powerful monsters. :smallsmile:



For sin, I think spawning every 10 minutes can work, though I think it should be more thematic than robotic. Just have the feature say "you can spawn X creatures as an action whenever you feel like it".

You could, but I think this would put it too close to 'you win because the DM feels like it'.

To put it another way, I'd want the mechanics to be done with the expectation that they'll be used to full effect.

That's just how I view it though.



Honestly, if wotc wasnt stepping on eggshells and afraid of doing anything I would suggest they make a full book on Airship Combat versus monsters. Have it where you can control the airship with a bonus action (which you control the airship in X with a command) and you can either go Airship v Dragon OR use the shipship to attack while the PCs are on said dragon stabbing it.

That would be wonderful.

Although, I'd also like to see it include airship vs airship - including boarding actions and such.

In completely unrelated news, my next campaign will include at least one airship. :smallwink:

[TrinculoLives]

It had one interesting ability. The ability to reflect lines and rays back at the caster was sort of neat. And... That's it. Well, it could charge at high speed every so often but that's less 'interesting' and more 'patches a hole in its abilities in a workmanlike fashion'.

If I ran the Tarrasque, I would give it a Godzilla-like "breath weapon" consisting of some nasty combination of damage-types, the Immutable Form feature, Regeneration, a swimming speed, Wounded Fury like the Quaggoth, increase its Intelligence to 5, and probably add half a dozen levels of Monk to truly imitate the classic Japanese Godzilla-as-man-in-suit. :P

[Deleted]

If I ran the Tarrasque, I would give it a Godzilla-like "breath weapon" consisting of some nasty combination of damage-types, the Immutable Form feature, Regeneration, a swimming speed, Wounded Fury like the Quaggoth, increase its Intelligence to 5, and probably add half a dozen levels of Monk to truly imitate the classic Japanese Godzilla-as-man-in-suit. :P

Increase its Intelligence to 20.

Why must the ancient monster be stupid? Yeah, it may not talk much but maybe it doesn't have anything to say due to all the horrors it has seen humanoids perform throughout time.

It knows what it is and why it is what it is... Maybe its depressed that its the only one of its kind?

[Unoriginal]

The legendary Tarrasque was pretty weak

[Knaight]

It should be pointed out that a lot of the reasons why solo monsters might seem weak against groups is that being inferior in number compared to your foes is pretty deadly in this edition, no matter if it's a lot of NPCs vs a few PCs or the reverse.

A) My point about compression of the power scale applies to everything, not just solo monsters.
B) My point about how it only seems flimsy when compared to other editions of D&D also holds here - being outnumbered is much less of a big deal in 5e than in many other games.

[JackPhoenix]

As for dragons: while I agree they aren't as powerful as they could be, I prefer them fighting like dragons and not like tougher dragon-shaped sorcerers. When you hear "dragon", what do you imagine, giant flying reptile flying, biting, clawing and breathing fire, or a spellcaster that, by coincidence, looks like giant flying reptile and can take more hits than your average mage?

Though I fully agree on demons, they should be more magical.

[Unoriginal]

A) My point about compression of the power scale applies to everything, not just solo monsters.
B) My point about how it only seems flimsy when compared to other editions of D&D also holds here - being outnumbered is much less of a big deal in 5e than in many other games.

I know, I wasn't disagreeing.

[Willie the Duck]

Isn't that exactly what a dragon should be? :smalltongue:

Well, that is something of a question. I, for one, feel that dragons should be that, but a lot of my fellow old-timers (this time defined by what edition one starts with) disagree. To them, dragons should be powerful, but weak enough that reasonable parties of certain levels could subdue them and press them into service as mounts. That's how they were in OD&D, the basics, and 1e. There isn't really a fixed idea of what a dragon should be (except that, at some level, some age/size of dragon should be a 'run away from' encounter. Given that 5e is trying to please so many masters, I can see why they went the way they did, but I hope they eventually include options for 'advanced' (spellcasting awesome) dragons.

As to the Tarrasque (or putting Sin from FFX into the game), there is a hard balancing point to making 'epic' monsters. There's a real danger of making them 'not fun,' or worse, an entry in the MM that incentivizes exploit-style play. 3e is a good example. I remember trying to do an analysis of how it looks like the designers thought 3e was going to be played (I think we took the example NPCs from the DMG and upgraded their treasure to conform to PC WBL). Note that that is inherently speculative, since for all the talking they did during the 3e era, it was not easy to ferret out their intent. But if you use those characters, and play with good intent, the 3e Tarrasque is a nightmare to fight, even at 20th level. It just chews up the melee fighters you have, is immune to much of the spellcasters, all of the archery, and regens faster than you can wear it down. It really, strongly incentivizes you finding some loophole/exploit like the lack of ability damage immunity and thus being vulnerable to controlled incorporeal undead. That's certainly a way to do it, but I don't think (again, speculation) that that is how the designers really wanted people to feel they had to play the game. I'm pretty sure that, for 5e, the low amount of monsters with super special powers is a response to that. Sadly, it has created the proliferation of bag-of-hp creatures.

[Dr. Cliché]

As for dragons: while I agree they aren't as powerful as they could be, I prefer them fighting like dragons and not like tougher dragon-shaped sorcerers. When you hear "dragon", what do you imagine, giant flying reptile flying, biting, clawing and breathing fire, or a spellcaster that, by coincidence, looks like giant flying reptile and can take more hits than your average mage?

Two counterpoints to this:

1) In the D&D world, dragons have an innate connection to sorcery (hence why creatures with some dragon blood in them tend to be sorcerers themselves). I think their mechanics should reflect this. Otherwise, there's this weird dissonance wherein (dragon bloodline) sorcerer's power comes from their connection to dragons . . . yet dragons themselves have no sorcerous ability whatsoever.

2) I think you can easily give dragons sorcerer spells without making them just dragon-shaped sorcerers. All you need to do is make sure their magic complements their dragon abilities, without making them redundant. The main thing is simply to make sure that their spells don't exceed the damage potential of their physical attacks or breath weapon. If a red dragon's breath weapon does more than a fireball or lightning bolt, then it will favour that attack over spells. But then, lighting bolt could still give it a ranged attack (albeit a weaker one) against characters who have acquired resistance or immunity to fire.

3) That said, I imagine many people would actually prefer dragon-shaped sorcerers. Aside from fitting the fluff better, they're also enemies that combine the best of both worlds - the physical strength and resilience of dragons with the magical ability and versatility of casters.