"Einhander" combat style

[danielxcutter]

I've spent enough time on this forum to learn that the "Einhander" combat style - that is, using a one handed weapon and leaving your offhand empty - is by far the most unoptimal way, even compared to unarmed strikes or TWF. Still, if you really have to for some reason, how would you do it?

TWFing with unarmed strikes as your offhand weapon is allowed for the purposes of this thread.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Uhhh...

TWFing with unarmed strikes as your offhand weapon is allowed for the purposes of this thread.
Probably that one. Or I guess maybe a ToB class that doesn't really need a strong weapon attack routine to contribute. Maybe Jade Phoenix Mage, and use your off-hand to cast, too.

[Elricaltovilla]

Which system and what materials are allowed? Anyone want to take a guess what I'm about to suggest?

[daremetoidareyo]

relevant feat discussion and optimization thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round Einhander begins at post #25

[ericgrau]

The thing is, by RAW you can take your hand off of a TH weapon as a free action, use it for whatever, then put it back as a free action. So you can THF+TWF unarmed strikes too, and likewise THF+cast too.

It's suboptimal mostly because there is almost nothing in splatbooks to support it. So you either have to dig really deep or bust out some homebrew.

There's the einhander feat in PHB2 which seems close to useless. Narrow profile is the most useful part and it isn't any better than combat expertise. The tumble and feint bonuses are useful mainly to a rogue and have very little benefit to a fighter. But when I ran the numbers on combat expertise (and thus narrow profile) it favored those with high AB & AC, both of which are lower on a rogue. And these two bonuses have a 1 round delay which is brutal in a gaming system where every round counts so much.

[Deophaun]

I've spent enough time on this forum to learn that the "Einhander" combat style - that is, using a one handed weapon and leaving your offhand empty - is by far the most unoptimal way, even compared to unarmed strikes or TWF. Still, if you really have to for some reason, how would you do it?
I'd do it exactly the way you said it: fight with the light weapon (because that's all I got) and leave my other hand empty (because there's nothing else for it to do).

The advantage of the einhander style is that your hand is free to do something else, not that it's empty. It's free to hold onto a rope while you're dueling with the BBEG on top of a pitching ship in the middle of a hurricane so that you aren't washed away. It's free to nab the holy symbol off the evil cleric so he can't case anti-life shell. It's free to grapple a minion and use it as a humanoid shield. That's what would make an einhander style useful, and that's what you want to focus on. Of course, everything that's ostensibly for an einhander style emphasizes that your hand must be empty, thus making them useless for actual einhanders (and everyone else).

[ericgrau]

@^ Eh most of those can also be done with THF, except fighting from a rope. Again, taking hand off of TH weapon and putting it on again are free actions.

Still seems like it relies on extremely narrow circumstances... Maybe let's force the circumstance to something you can do all the time? What magic item or other object should you be carrying in your off hand at all times? That can't be put away long enough to strike with THF.

[Deophaun]

@^ Eh most of those can also be done with THF, except fighting from a rope. Again, taking hand off of TH weapon and putting it on again are free actions.
But if you put your hand back on, the minion is no longer grappled and the cleric is free to pick his holy symbol back up (because you had to drop it to get your full attack in).

[Bucky]

What magic item or other object should you be carrying in your off hand at all times? That can't be put away long enough to strike with THF.

Wands?

TWF+Improved Unarmed Strike isn't a good reason to fight with a hand free because you can make unarmed strikes with your feet.

Oh, I got it! Einhander style allows you to gain the defensive benefits of Deflect Arrows while also threatening attacks of opportunity with a weapon enhancement.

[ericgrau]

But if you put your hand back on, the minion is no longer grappled and the cleric is free to pick his holy symbol back up (because you had to drop it to get your full attack in).
Then a one handed weapon won't work to hit in a grapple either. You need a light weapon. Except it gives you a -4 to hit in a grapple. If you use grapple checks to deal unarmed damage then you don't get a penalty. Likewise grabbing the cleric's holy symbol provokes from the cleric's mace, and if he hits your grab auto-fails (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm). Unless you have improved unarmed strike. All this is ok to do while fighting with a single light weapon, but it seems like a better argument for an unarmed build.


Wands?

TWF+Improved Unarmed Strike isn't a good reason to fight with a hand free because you can make unarmed strikes with your feet.

Oh, I got it! Einhander style allows you to gain the defensive benefits of Deflect Arrows while also threatening attacks of opportunity with a weapon enhancement.
Maybe, which wand(s), which weapon(s) and which weapon enhancement(s)? It's hard to get a one handed reach weapon, but I think there are some out there. Right?

[Deophaun]

Then a one handed weapon won't work to hit in a grapple either. You need a light weapon. Except it gives you a -4 to hit in a grapple. If you use grapple checks to deal unarmed damage then you don't get a penalty.
Unless you have a means of grappling without being considered grappling to other creatures (which is something like a -20 penalty, but there it is)

Likewise grabbing the cleric's holy symbol provokes from the cleric's mace, and if he hits your grab auto-fails (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#disarm).
Unless you have a means of not provoking, like you have taken Master Pickpocket.

All this is ok to do while fighting with a single light weapon, but it seems like a better argument for an unarmed build.
Yeah. Hi! You see that thing sailing waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy over your head? That's the point: the official stuff that exists for Einhander doesn't support einhander. There is no support for it. If there was, it would be stuff that let you more easily do things like I mentioned, because those things are the point behind having a hand free.

Stating "Well, you're better off building x" is missing the forest because you're looking in the middle of a methane ocean on Titan.

[MisterKaws]

Well, most Shadow Hand users are Einhanders, since no one's going to spend all those TWF feats on a martial adept that is not focused on Tiger Claw or Diamond Mind.

[DrMotives]

It was actually optimal in 2e because there were 4 "weapon style" feats from the fighter's splatbook. The one for a single one handed weapon, empty other hand, was a competence bonus to AC. Two weapon style was fun as well, but a single two-handed weapon had a feat for an init bonus, while weapon & shield style feat allowed the same as 3.5's shield mastery feat.

[Ruethgar]

Relevant, though a far cry from optimal, is the Single Blade Style feat for some lovely Dodge AC... +10 BaB is rough though so probably want a Martial Monk level or two.

[Seerow]

If DSP is allowed, Scarlet Throne is a discipline that offers pretty decent support for einhanding. It's still investing a bunch of resources to be basically on par with a two-handed weapon user, but it gets style points and I like it.

[Vaz]

Duskblade for a spell sword style. You can still pick up the Somatic/Material Components necessary.

[Aetis]

Cast a touch spell before a fight and hold the charge.

You can use your empty hand to deliver the touch spell as part of your full attack. (use your off hand and take the TWF penalty, even at -8 your touch attack should be hitting easily)

If your DM does not allow your gish to hold your greatsword with one hand as a free action so you can cast a spell with your other hand, then einhinder style may be of some use to gishes.

[barakaka]

Alchemy Blade with triple weapon capsule retainer, an oil sprayer for the blade and use your spare hand to slather a poison/oil/alchemical item onto your blade. It's treated as a short sword which is a light weapon, so you can kinda use it in a grapple.

Other things to do with one hand free:

Wear a Ring of Nullification and hold an Orb of Nullification. It's an item in Tome of Magic that reduces/nullifies 20 points of damage. If you're playing a squishy character anyway, it's a nice way to avoid getting completely rekt by a stray greatsword.
With the Mad Alchemist feat you could use your spare hand for countering spells by hurling thunderstones.
Throw eggshell grenades to blind your opponent
If you're falling to your death while fighting, break a Featherfall Talisman


All of this costs money though, so it's more for around 7th level and up.

[gorfnab]

Below is a favorite Einhander build of mine. It uses some of the options mentioned here: A Short Guide to Defensive Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.

[noce]

Two things come to my mind.

- Bladesinger PrC explicitly prohibits you to wield anything in your off-hand. The PrC is quite bad, though.

- There are situations in which you don't want a -2 penalty from TWF, for example with things that are wasted if you don't hit. If a Lurk focuses on his Mental Assault augment then hit point damage is only a backup strategy, so he prefers to use a single weapon in order to hit (well, since Lurk has martial weapon proficiency, I'd go with reach weapon and armor spikes, there's no incentive in going one-handed weapon).

[Doorhandle]

I've spent enough time on this forum to learn that the "Einhander" combat style - that is, using a one handed weapon and leaving your offhand empty - is by far the most unoptimal way, even compared to unarmed strikes or TWF. Still, if you really have to for some reason, how would you do it?

TWFing with unarmed strikes as your offhand weapon is allowed for the purposes of this thread.

To be fair, even in martial arts where you use a single one-hand weapon, they either put the other hand out of reach (fencing), use a shield, or wrap it in a cloth before using it for anything (ex:Cloak and dagger (http://moondragon.info/mediawiki/images/7/7d/Rapier_and_cloak.JPG)).
An open, empty hand just isn't terribly useful in combat, and intentionally or not, D&D reflects this.

The closest I can think of what you're asking would be carrying a useful item in your offhand that isn't a sword, shield, or wand... Are they any magic-item lanterns? Maybe a magic tankard to unleash one's inner drunkard?

[SirNibbles]

Graceful Edge from Dungeon Magazine #128 (page 44) allows you to treat any one-handed slashing weapon as light and gives you a +1 shield bonus to AC (+2 if fighting defensively) as long as you don't have a shield or weapon in your off hand. This allows you to finesse any 1H slashing weapon.

It's not too useful but better than nothing.

_

The best Einhander build is one that uses spells instead of its weapon but I know that defeats the purpose.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The best einhander build is a refluffed two-hander build, using a (finessable) (low-weight) (one-handable) two-handed weapon. If you absolutely have to be an einhander mechanically, use Tome of Battle or the likes of Arcane Strike to make your weapon damage irrelevant.


The City Brawler barbarian variant grants you IUS, and TWF when fighting unarmed. A character with IUS is always considered armed, even when not carrying a weapon, so this is technically dysfunctional. As is so often the case, the author didn't know anything about the relevant rules. However, a reasonable houserule along the lines of "you can TWF, but only when either off- or main-hand is an unarmed strike" slots right into an einhander-TWF-with-empty-hand build.

[ShurikVch]

What's it, nobody mentioned Snowflake Wardance?
Add in Dervish Dance...

[WhamBamSam]

An Iaijutsu Factotum certainly won't have the feats for TWF, so there's a decent chance you'll end up going "einhander" with a Gnome Quickrazor. You could wear a shield with an ACP of 0, I guess.

The Snatch Weapon feat requires a free hand, though that's sort of like TWFing, and in fact might require TWF to avoid or mitigate penalties. There's also Snatch Arrows, which piggybacks off the Deflect Arrows suggestion.

A Paimon-focused Binder might well be using a single rapier or somesuch.

[Necroticplague]

What's it, nobody mentioned Snowflake Wardance?
Add in Dervish Dance...

Both of those work better with MWF than with Einhanding. Snowflake Wardance offsets the penalties for MWF, while Dervish Dance gives a per-attack damage boost (thus, gives a bigger boost if you have more attacks).

[legomaster00156]

If DSP is allowed, Scarlet Throne is a discipline that offers pretty decent support for einhanding. It's still investing a bunch of resources to be basically on par with a two-handed weapon user, but it gets style points and I like it.
In PoW:E, DSP came out with an entire PrC (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/landsknecht/) for the style.

[ericgrau]

Below is a favorite Einhander build of mine. It uses some of the options mentioned here: A Short Guide to Defensive Fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either abilities take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available pick up EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) or Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII) and Snap Kick (ToB) (may need to rearrange later feats). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.


Duelist is... not great. As in I try to find redeeming value in every major class and PrC and I've found ways to use everything except duelist.

It seems like there indeed isn't much support for Einhander. And I can see how lots of people want to play one because of movie characters and what not. The movie characters tend to do it not because it's particularly powerful, but because a heavy two handed weapon or a shield isn't particularly beneficial to them. They often like to travel light. Maybe we could make a bunch of homebrew feats to support this concept?

Acrobatic Fencer
Prerequisites: weapon finesse
Benefit: Gain a +2 to dexterity checks (including initiative checks), dex based skill checks, and strength based skill checks (but not strength checks) whenever you are unarmed or holding only a single finessable weapon and no other objects over 1/2 lb (total).

Even while holding a finessable weapon you may treat that hand as empty for the purpose of other activities such as climbing, or holding another objects. However you may not attack with the weapon while the hand holding it is engaged for this other purpose, and this benefit does not allow you to treat both hands as empty at once.

Normal: Your DM may sometimes allow any character to do something else with a hand holding a weapon, possibly with a penalty, if it makes sense to him.

[thorr-kan]

Combine with Combat Cloak Expert?

[WhamBamSam]

The Graft Weapon power and Weapon Graft (Fiend Folio) attach a light or one-handed weapon to your arm and make it a natural weapon. Unarmed strikes are preferable most of the time, but there are corner cases where a grafted weapon might be preferable.

[thorr-kan]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword.

Because the idea of Danny Kay going all Court Jester with a claymore is *hilarious*. (Google the references; it's worth your time.)

[lord_khaine]

The best einhander build is a refluffed two-hander build, using a (finessable) (low-weight) (one-handable) two-handed weapon. If you absolutely have to be an einhander mechanically, use Tome of Battle or the likes of Arcane Strike to make your weapon damage irrelevant.

Is what i think are the most reliable and simple solution. Use something like a longsword, and just accept the minor damage loss that going from 2d6 to 1d8 brings.

[Dagroth]

Relevant, though a far cry from optimal, is the Single Blade Style feat for some lovely Dodge AC... +10 BaB is rough though so probably want a Martial Monk level or two.

Einhander already gives you that, and is easier to qualify for.

Edit: And, since they're both Dodge Bonuses, they wouldn't stack.

[martixy]

Einhander is... difficult to salvage at best.

Going off the idea that tactical feats should allow you to do things you weren't able to before here's a couple of tweaks I came up with:


Replace "Narrow profile" with "Swift trick":
You use your free hand to disorient or mislead your opponent. When you successfully attack an opponent you may perform a dirty trick as a swift action.

Replace "Off-Hand Balance" with "Parrying riposte":
To use this maneuver you must fight defensively(including using Combat Expertise) or use use the total defense action. Once per round, when an opponent you threaten attacks you with a melee weapon, you may make an opposed attack roll. If this roll succeeds you thwart the opponent's attack and cause him to provoke an Attack of Opportinity.
AFAIK, there is no way to do a dirty trick as a swift action so in PF this covers that tiny niche. In 3.5 it provides a rather unique mechanic.
The second one is, to my knowledge a unique mechanic as well. Less useful in total defense, but can still create an opening for your allies, even if not yourself.

[Zombimode]

Edit: And, since they're both Dodge Bonuses, they wouldn't stack.

Except they would. Dodge boni are special that way.