New here, low on time, and rusty

[dpr99]

Hi all,

I've been going nuts the past week reading this board. It's awesome. Thanks for all you do!

So here are the details of my situation. I'm an old school AD&D player as well as plenty of experience with 3rd edition but almost none with 3.5. Differences don't seem too great but there are some rules I'm not quite getting and I'm finding my optimization skills are ruuuuusty. It's a little embarrassing but hey, I have a career and I'm getting old...also my wife is a distraction :p Since time is getting short, I figured I'd ask you guys for some help.

First, we're looking at a well rounded cleric. I haven't played a cleric since 2nd ed so...

Need some healing but also want to be a front line fighter when necessary. Keep in mind I'm a creative type and highly adaptable on the fly as a person so the less pigeon holed the better. So healing, buffing, and smashing. I'm thinking the persistent spell feats and tons of turning chances to feed whatever we need. If we need to turn, cool. If we need to persist spells all day to lay a smack down, that's cool too. Convert spells to healing, ok, we got that.

Next, I'm thinking straight cleric to 20 (we're starting at level 10). Other than Radiant Servant of Pelor I'm not seeing any PrCs that really drive it home. Keeping full spell progression and turning attempts would be ideal.

Also not sure if Pelor is the right deity yet. I've read travel is the way to go but that's not Pelor. Not sure what other domains would be good. Deity suggestions? They should be from core (Greyhawk) or generalist sort of deities (not Dragonlance or FR).

Finally, I've read a lot about templates. Saint seems super powerful but kind of smothering. Instead, what about choosing a really neat race like the Lumi? The GM is allowing an LA buyoff but I'll be honest, maybe it's too much malted hops but I'm just not getting how it works. So a Lumi is a LA +2. It also has 2 racial HD. So at character generation, as a level 1 cleric, that makes it an ECL of 5? Is that right? So how do I buyout? Can the racial HD portion be bought out too or would a Lumi cleric be doomed to always being behind the rest of the party? If so, being human and getting a spare feat and extra skill points isn't the end of the world although far less entertaining than having a floating head.

Any answer or build suggestions would be much appreciated.

[Dagroth]

Hi all,

I've been going nuts the past week reading this board. It's awesome. Thanks for all you do!

So here are the details of my situation. I'm an old school AD&D player as well as plenty of experience with 3rd edition but almost none with 3.5. Differences don't seem too great but there are some rules I'm not quite getting and I'm finding my optimization skills are ruuuuusty. It's a little embarrassing but hey, I have a career and I'm getting old...also my wife is a distraction :p Since time is getting short, I figured I'd ask you guys for some help.

First, we're looking at a well rounded cleric. I haven't played a cleric since 2nd ed so...

Need some healing but also want to be a front line fighter when necessary. Keep in mind I'm a creative type and highly adaptable on the fly as a person so the less pigeon holed the better. So healing, buffing, and smashing. I'm thinking the persistent spell feats and tons of turning chances to feed whatever we need. If we need to turn, cool. If we need to persist spells all day to lay a smack down, that's cool too. Convert spells to healing, ok, we got that.

Next, I'm thinking straight cleric to 20 (we're starting at level 10). Other than Radiant Servant of Pelor I'm not seeing any PrCs that really drive it home. Keeping full spell progression and turning attempts would be ideal.

Also not sure if Pelor is the right deity yet. I've read travel is the way to go but that's not Pelor. Not sure what other domains would be good. Deity suggestions? They should be from core (Greyhawk) or generalist sort of deities (not Dragonlance or FR).

Finally, I've read a lot about templates. Saint seems super powerful but kind of smothering. Instead, what about choosing a really neat race like the Lumi? The GM is allowing an LA buyoff but I'll be honest, maybe it's too much malted hops but I'm just not getting how it works. So a Lumi is a LA +2. It also has 2 racial HD. So at character generation, as a level 1 cleric, that makes it an ECL of 5? Is that right? So how do I buyout? Can the racial HD portion be bought out too or would a Lumi cleric be doomed to always being behind the rest of the party? If so, being human and getting a spare feat and extra skill points isn't the end of the world although far less entertaining than having a floating head.

Any answer or build suggestions would be much appreciated.

1) See my thread about being a Divine Metamagic Abuser (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?515928-Divine-Metamagic-Abuser), if you're looking for that.

2) The Lumi is neat, but you will indeed always have 2 levels of Outsider.

3) To buy off LA, you simply spend XP at the appropriate levels. The first time you can buy off LA is after (current LAx3). So, with a Lumi, you could buy off your first LA when you reached class level 6 (because racial HD don't count for when you can buy off LA).

So, you have to have gained 6 Levels of Cleric, which means you have to have earned 45,000 XP (6 class levels + 2 Outsider levels +2 LA). At that point, you can spend 9,000 XP to pay off one of your Level Adjust. You're now a 9th level character equivalent with 36,000 XP. After you gain 3 more levels of Cleric (current LAx3), you have earned 66,000 XP (9 class levels + 2 Outsider levels +1 LA). At this point, you can spend 11,000 XP to pay off your other LA. You're now an 11th level character equivalent with 55,000 XP. You're only 1 level and a bit behind your party, but you've been gaining fractionally more XP from every encounter since you paid off one of your LA.

The sad thing is, because of the Racial Hit Dice not counting for LA buy-off, it's much more expensive.

For a Saint (+2 LA), they can buy off LA after the same number of class levels. So they're only spending 7,000 XP & then 9,000 XP.

[ATHATH]

If DMM gets shut down by the DM, consider picking up the Champion, Pool of Healing, and Gorion Cleric ACF's. Combined, they will trade away both of your Domains, one 4th level spell slot, and Turn Undead for Smite Evil (or good), Full BAB, Aura of Courage (as the Paladin class feature), a Lay on Hands-esque pool of healing, and a d10 Hit Die. Dip into a prestige class that gives you Turn Undead (which can conveniently power Travel Devotion (remember that you can take it as a normal feat!)), then dip into Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm) to add all Paladin spells to your spell list (and get another use of Smite Evil), and BOOM- you're a better divine gish than an actual (straight) Paladin.

What domains do you plan to take? There's an ACF that lets you trade away one domain to make your other domain's power twice as strong, if you're interested in that.

Also, I'm pretty sure that in some settings, you can worship a concept or a plane instead of a deity; check with your DM.

[GilesTheCleric]

You're in luck! If you're short on time, I have a quick-builder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11wxOmk4XSZOi_39LxlOVAff19bzq5bOzzkF7xv-uies/edit?usp=sharing).

Gh deities with travel include: Aasterinian, Atroa, Baervan Wildwanderer, Bargrivyek, Brandobaris, Celestian, Cyndor, Dalt, Damaran, Daoud, Fenmarel Mestarine, Fharlanghn, Geshtai, Grankhul, Heward, Io, Kelanen, Keoghtom, Keptolo, Lirr, Lydia, Mouqol, Muamman Duathal, Osprem, Procan, Rillifane Rallathil, Sehanine Moonbow, Sixin, Velnius, Vhaeraun, and Ye'Cind.

[Jopustopin]

If your DM is using LA buyoff and you're starting at ECL 10 then you'll have 8 class levels (this assumes you do not have racial hit dice). You'll immediately be able to buy off a level and be ECL 9 and level 8 (alternatively I've seen DM's just start you at level 9 and you're ECL 10).
I recommend Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) template. It's just bad ass. What else is there to say. It's in the expanded psionics handbook or follow the link to the SRD.

Next up, if the DM is using LA buyoff, other things in Unearth Arcana might be available. Like cloistered cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). Yep, you're taking that.



God: Heroneious
Domains: Knowledge, Planning (This gives you extend spell as the domain power), War
1) Extra Turning
3) Power Attack (You can cast Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm))
6) Persist Spell
9) Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell)

[dpr99]

Thanks for the info. I'll skip the Lumi then as the 2 hit dice would be impactful to my caster levels. Above all else this group is going to need me to have full caster levels from the sound of it. The Saint is a neat alternative though. That's still a serious consideration.

Thanks Dagroth, the help on DMM filled in all the gaps. Def going that route.

Athath, I'm not sure on Domains. Since I'm looking at following either Heironeous or Pelor (I'd then pick up the Radiant Servant PrC) I'm tossing around either Glory and War for Heironeous or Healing and Sun for Pelor.

Jopustopin, anything from psionics is not allowed. I'm a little confused too. Heironeous doesn't have Planning as listed Domains. How would I get this domain?

As I've researched, a character concept has started to flush out in my head. Whether it's Heironeous/Pelor or ideally, a concept combining the two, a nerdy cleric with high wis and cha with a relatively high int but less developed physical stats who is a sort of bookworm that wants to support the paladins and battle clerics would be cool. Cloistered Cleric fits perfect here as does the Planning domain. As to where your typical Paladin or adventuring Cleric has high wisdom yet tends to be headstrong act first think later types this guy would be a master strategist and battle planner relying heavily on his wisdom (intuition and common sense) as well as his intelligence (war strategy and history). I still don't know what logic I'm going to use to convince the DM to let me have Planning and Knowledge.

So basically this little bookworm prefers tactics and strategy and when deployed goes to healing/buffing/support however knowing battle strategy like he does, he's aware that one should always have a plan B...which is where DMM comes in. While he knows he doesn't have the natural physical ability of a crusading badass, "The Lord will provide"...so as needed he DMM's himself into a Turning powered beast with Divine Power, Righteous Might, and the like.

So I'm going to spend tonight figuring out how my character should be built. Any additional suggestions appreciated. Guidelines so far (not in stone):

Cloistered Cleric - x
Radiant Servant of Pelor - x (optional if I'm not worshipping Pelor) - up to 10?

LA buyoff Saint...maybe...not sure how I'm going to cram 3 additional exalted feats in.

Domains - Sun and Healing and if I go Radiant Servant, Glory. I'd prefer Planning but still don't know how to swing it.

Feats (need to determine order since I'm starting at level 10 and prioritize since there are too many to reasonably get by that level):

Persistant Spell
Quicken Spell
Divine Metamagic
Extra Turning
Divine Vigor - my dex is going to be low so I'd like to be able to move in my full plate but this is lower priority
Power Attack
Knowledge Devotion
Exalted Turning
Sanctify Martial Strike

I'm thinking if I have Knowledge I should keep it so that I can keep my knowledge skills high. Planning seems like a waste to trade off since it would give me Extend Spell. More likely I'll end up with Pelor's domains though. I'd have to keep Sun to get into the Radiant Servant PrC but trading off Healing would be an option. Glory too but I'd kind of like to keep it. The spells sound fun.

What do you guys think? Am I on a good track or am I trying too hard to fill too many niches? This party desperately needs support magic and another melee'er. I'd like to fit both as the need arises

[torrasque666]

You get Knowledge Domain for free, regardless of your deity and in addition to your other two, if you go Cloistered Cleric.

[Jopustopin]

Jopustopin, anything from psionics is not allowed. I'm a little confused too. Heironeous doesn't have Planning or Knowledge as listed Domains. How would I get these domains?

That's my bad - Heironeous was detailed twice (I believe) in the PHB with the domains Good, Law, and War. In the Complete Divine (released in 2004) he was updated with more domains (Glory, Good, Inquisition, Law, War). In 2005 they released the spell compendium and we house ruled domains that fit the Greyhawk deities. Otherwise none of the Greyhawk pantheon can even use Spell Compendium Domains (That's sad, right?). Planning domain fits a god of law and war in my opinion but, as with all houserules, your mileage may vary. Ask your DM.

You get Knowledge Domain as part of being a cloistered cleric; it doesn't matter what God you worship.

[dpr99]

You get Knowledge Domain for free, regardless of your deity and in addition to your other two, if you go Cloistered Cleric.

Oh, yes, right. Sorry, edited post above to reflect your correction.

[dpr99]

That's my bad - Heironeous was detailed twice (I believe) in the PHB with the domains Good, Law, and War. In the Complete Divine (released in 2004) he was updated with more domains (Glory, Good, Inquisition, Law, War). In 2005 they released the spell compendium and we house ruled domains that fit the Greyhawk deities. Otherwise none of the Greyhawk pantheon can even use Spell Compendium Domains (That's sad, right?). Planning domain fits a god of law and war in my opinion but, as with all houserules, your mileage may vary. Ask your DM.

You get Knowledge Domain as part of being a cloistered cleric; it doesn't matter what God you worship.


You're right, theoretically planning makes perfect sense for Heironeous. I'll talk to the GM. In the event that planning is a big no as it may be since it's Forgotten Realms specific, what domains would you suggest? Heironeous' war domain would give long sword but following Pelor and going Radiant Servant gives all martial weapons anyway.

Suggestions on how to armor up (low dex) without being a 20' movement pet rock?

[flappeercraft]

If you're going to have Heironeous as a god and want to have a melee cleric, I would reccomend having the Ordained Champion PrC, another good PrC for what you want is Fist of Raziel. The Good thing is that you can use both if you so desire.

Also, if Dragon Magazine is allowed, you can choose a Battleaxe for War Domain with Heironeous, in addition on how to armor up well without being slow, just get a Mithral Breastplate as due to being made of Mithral it would count as Light armor for all purposes (Except for the cost increase of making it out of mithral)

[Dagroth]

I recommend the Planning domain because it's a way to get a Feat you need. Unfortunately, almost no deity gets the Planning Domain. Same with the Undeath Domain, though Wee Jas should clearly get it (along with the Spell Domain).

Which is why I almost always play a Cleric who follows an ideal rather than a deity... unless I require a specific deity for a specific PrC like Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Great Velocity]

(Greater) Luminous Armour (Book of exalted deeds) is your friend. Also, if you take the Rebuke Dragons ACF (Dragon magic) and dip Sacred Exorcist (Complete divine), you get two turning pools that stack for the purposes of DMM. If you don't mind losing caster levels, dipping Dread Necromancer (Heroes of horror) gives you a third pool. However, this will require some alignment fiddling, as Sacred Exorcist is Good only and Dread Necromancer is non-Good only. I suggest dipping Dread Necromancer first, changing alignment to Good, then taking Sacred Exorcist. This works because you don't lose your Dread Necromancer class features if you are the wrong alignment.
-Great Velocity

[Dagroth]

(Greater) Luminous Armour (Book of exalted deeds) is your friend. Also, if you take the Rebuke Dragons ACF (Dragon magic) and dip Sacred Exorcist (Complete divine), you get two turning pools that stack for the purposes of DMM. If you don't mind losing caster levels, dipping Dread Necromancer (Heroes of horror) gives you a third pool. However, this will require some alignment fiddling, as Sacred Exorcist is Good only and Dread Necromancer is non-Good only. I suggest dipping Dread Necromancer first, changing alignment to Good, then taking Sacred Exorcist. This works because you don't lose your Dread Necromancer class features if you are the wrong alignment.
-Great Velocity

In my DMM abuser thread, we discuss the Death Delver PrC for Rebuke Undead.

We also discuss that the Extra Turning wouldn't (by RAW) increase both your Turn & Rebuke Undead pools, no matter where you got them. It's still an extra 3+Cha turn attempts though.

[dpr99]

If you're going to have Heironeous as a god and want to have a melee cleric, I would reccomend having the Ordained Champion PrC, another good PrC for what you want is Fist of Raziel. The Good thing is that you can use both if you so desire.

Also, if Dragon Magazine is allowed, you can choose a Battleaxe for War Domain with Heironeous, in addition on how to armor up well without being slow, just get a Mithral Breastplate as due to being made of Mithral it would count as Light armor for all purposes (Except for the cost increase of making it out of mithral)

Don't both of those PrCs cause loss of spell levels? I'd like to keep those maxed. Also, no Dragon Mag.

So Mithral Breastplate allows full movement? Ok, that's my default then. What about something like having Full Plate with a permanent spell effect from "Knight Unburdened" cast on it? Are there rules for that? If so I'm sure with level 10 gold I could afford it.

[dpr99]

(Greater) Luminous Armour (Book of exalted deeds) is your friend. Also, if you take the Rebuke Dragons ACF (Dragon magic) and dip Sacred Exorcist (Complete divine), you get two turning pools that stack for the purposes of DMM. If you don't mind losing caster levels, dipping Dread Necromancer (Heroes of horror) gives you a third pool. However, this will require some alignment fiddling, as Sacred Exorcist is Good only and Dread Necromancer is non-Good only. I suggest dipping Dread Necromancer first, changing alignment to Good, then taking Sacred Exorcist. This works because you don't lose your Dread Necromancer class features if you are the wrong alignment.
-Great Velocity

I'll check out Luminous Armor. As far as the rest, I don't think my GM will let me get away with alignment manipulation to hit Dread Necro. Sacred Exorcist and Rebuke Dragons may be an option though.

[Dagroth]

Don't both of those PrCs cause loss of spell levels? I'd like to keep those maxed. Also, no Dragon Mag.

So Mithral Breastplate allows full movement? Ok, that's my default then. What about something like having Full Plate with a permanent spell effect from "Knight Unburdened" cast on it? Are there rules for that? If so I'm sure with level 10 gold I could afford it.

I don't know what "Knight Unburdened" is, but there are rules in the Magic Item compendium for creating enchantments that duplicate Feats and/or class features.

[Great Velocity]

I'll check out Luminous Armor. As far as the rest, I don't think my GM will let me get away with alignment manipulation to hit Dread Necro. Sacred Exorcist and Rebuke Dragons may be an option though.

You can also use a Monk's Belt (SRD), which grants the AC bonus of a monk. Because Luminous Armour isn't technically armour, you can get +5 from that, +WIS from the belt and then another +4 against melee attacks.

[dpr99]

I don't know what "Knight Unburdened" is, but there are rules in the Magic Item compendium for creating enchantments that duplicate Feats and/or class features.

Knight Unburdened is a Paladin spell from an Eberon source book.

[Dagroth]

Knight Unburdened is a Paladin spell from an Eberon source book.

Well, that makes it easy... especially since it's also a 1st level Artificer spell.

Now. It's a spell that affects Armor, so you need the Craft Magic Arms & Armor feat, which means a minimum of 5th level caster.

The cost determination is: Use-activated or continuous Spell: spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp. The base spell is 1hour/level, so there is no additional multiplier.

So, to have continuous "Knight Unburdened" on Armor would be, by the item creation rules in the DMG, 10,000 gp.

But Boots of Striding and Springing are only 5,500 GP and give you +10' enhancement to move. Of course, "Knight Unburdened" is removing a penalty so you could also wear the boots for the additional move.

Now, if the GM allows "Knight Unburdened" to be cast on an Amulet, Boots or something like that, the caster level goes down to 3rd (minimum for Craft Wonderous), reducing the cost to 6,000 gp.

I personally might make it a +1 Armor equivalent enchantment... or even make it a Least/Lesser Armor Crystal. 1000 gp for a Least crystal which would reduce the movement penalty by 1/2 & 3000 gp for a Lesser crystal which would remove the movement penalty completely. Simply because I don't think this effect is worth 10,000 gp.

[dpr99]

Well, that makes it easy... especially since it's also a 1st level Artificer spell.

Now. It's a spell that affects Armor, so you need the Craft Magic Arms & Armor feat, which means a minimum of 5th level caster.

The cost determination is: Use-activated or continuous Spell: spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp. The base spell is 1hour/level, so there is no additional multiplier.

So, to have continuous "Knight Unburdened" on Armor would be, by the item creation rules in the DMG, 10,000 gp.

But Boots of Striding and Springing are only 5,500 GP and give you +10' enhancement to move. Of course, "Knight Unburdened" is removing a penalty so you could also wear the boots for the additional move.

Now, if the GM allows "Knight Unburdened" to be cast on an Amulet, Boots or something like that, the caster level goes down to 3rd (minimum for Craft Wonderous), reducing the cost to 6,000 gp.

I personally might make it a +1 Armor equivalent enchantment... or even make it a Least/Lesser Armor Crystal. 1000 gp for a Least crystal which would reduce the movement penalty by 1/2 & 3000 gp for a Lesser crystal which would remove the movement penalty completely. Simply because I don't think this effect is worth 10,000 gp.


I don't really know about crystals, never heard of them until I started reading these boards but the 3000 crystal sounds like a great option and then I can have boots of striding (I like mobility, just a personal security blanket I guess). What book are these crystals from?

Also, I keep reading about swapping domains for feats. What book is that from? Any features I use I have to back up with references. After reading your DMM thread far more thoroughly I feel I have a better grasp on this. I know I'll need more turning attempts so you've shown me creative ways to try to get those but I doubt I can get away with alignment switching so whatever I do will need to be a PrC that allows good alignment. So you mentioned in your other thread taking Cloistered Cleric and getting Rebuke Dragons. How does that work? Where is that rule from?

If I work that out, I can take Sacred Exorcist and pick up regular Turning. So that effectively doubles my DMM and the effects of Extra Turning feat right? What about the Greater Turning from the Sun Domain and the Radiant Servant's special ability Extra Greater Turning? Do they feed DMM? Does Extra Turning work on those too? If so, it's nowhere near as optimizes as your build but it's still enough to be viable knocking the heads off monsters.

I'd like to keep Knowledge Domain if possible so I can pump up knowledge skills to feed Knowledge Devotion. I love the power and flavor of that feat. I'd like to grab Archivist too but I'm not sure where to fit it in and I'm not sure my GM will let me take it.

Final question. Cloistered Cleric has some low HD. I'm not taking any classes that don't have +1 spell divine spell progression so I can be a wimpy little buffer/healer when I want. Conceptually I'll do this most times and break out DMM for bad situations when a cleric just needs to hulk out you know? That hopefully will keep it from looking abusive. That said, when it is time to DMM hulk out, doesn't the lack of HP seem dangerous even with AC buffs?

[Great Velocity]

taking Cloistered Cleric and getting Rebuke Dragons. How does that work? Where is that rule from?


I'd like to keep Knowledge Domain if possible so I can pump up knowledge skills to feed Knowledge Devotion.

Final question. Cloistered Cleric has some low HD. I'm not taking any classes that don't have +1 spell divine spell progression so I can be a wimpy little buffer/healer when I want. Conceptually I'll do this most times and break out DMM for bad situations when a cleric just needs to hulk out you know? That hopefully will keep it from looking abusive. That said, when it is time to DMM hulk out, doesn't the lack of HP seem dangerous even with AC buffs?

Last thing first: D6 HP is one/level less than D8 on average, so not too bad.
Cloistered Cleric has all knowledge skills as class skills without the granted power of the knowledge domain. (Technically. And as we all know, technically correct is the best kind of correct.) Most DMs will say no to this, however.
Cloistered Cleric can be found in the SRD, under Variant Rules --> classes --> cloistered cleric. Rebuke Dragons is dragon magic pg eleven or so.

[flappeercraft]

Don't both of those PrCs cause loss of spell levels? I'd like to keep those maxed. Also, no Dragon Mag.

So Mithral Breastplate allows full movement? Ok, that's my default then. What about something like having Full Plate with a permanent spell effect from "Knight Unburdened" cast on it? Are there rules for that? If so I'm sure with level 10 gold I could afford it.

Yes and yes. You do lose CL but only 3 which is not too much of a problem with a gish. Also that would work and you could afford it especially if made by an artificer.

[dpr99]

What book is the option to swap Domains for Feats from?

[flappeercraft]

Pretty sure its complete divine

[Dagroth]

The Rebuke Dragons ACF is not from a Dragon Magazine... It's from the book Dragon Magic. It specifically states that it can be used to fuel Divine Feats (like DMM). Rebuke Dragons replaces Turn Undead.

The Devotion Feats are in Complete Champion. Knowledge Devotion is the only one that doesn't require Turn Attempts to use more than once per day, so it's often called the best one.

Armor and Weapon Crystals are in the Magic Item Compendium. Note that my thoughts on the price for an Armor Crystal which removes the movement penalty from medium & heavy armor are my thoughts alone. Only the costs of the Enchantment on Armor (10,000 gp) or on an Amulet (6,000 gp) are correct according to the rules.

The Sun Domain granted power specifically indicates that Greater Turning is in place of a regular Turning Attempt. Since RSoP says its Greater Turning is (the granted power of the Sun Domain), it is not a separate pool of turning attempts and thus would not be affected by Extra Turning.

If you're Human and take the Able Learner Feat (from Races of Destiny), then you can convert your Knowledge Domain power to Knowledge Devotion at any level after 1st and still only pay 1 skill point per for all Knowledge Skills.

As mentioned earlier, d6 hit points is not that big a deal. If you really want, you can jump into Church Inquisitor at level 3. You'll have 2 fewer skill points per level, but you'll have that d8 for hit points. Being Immune to Enchantment (Charm) spells is not bad either, while Pierce Illusion is also pretty useful.

There are many spells to give you more Con, Temp hitpoints, or just a fast-healing equivalent (Persist Lesser Mass Vigor). You're going to be beating the Rogue for hitpoints, at least.

As was mentioned in my thread, Death Delver will give you Rebuke Undead and doesn't have any Alignment Restrictions. So you could go with the Archivist build I put forth if you want to truly explode the number of spells you potentially have access to.

If you do go with playing an Archivist and start out at a decent level (8+), look up the rules for selling a Spellbook. Figure out what non-Cleric Divine Spells you want (Adept from the DMG, Death Delver from Heroes of Horror, Ranger, Paladin & Druid & all the Domain lists) and put them in a "Spellbook". Double the price from what you would get for selling said spellbook. Spend that much gold from your WBL. Now you have all the spells (or some of them, if you don't want to spend too much) that you don't just automatically learn.

[dpr99]

Pretty sure its complete divine

Looking through Complete Divine and can't find anything referencing selling a domain for a feat.

[Dagroth]

Looking through Complete Divine and can't find anything referencing selling a domain for a feat.

As I said, it's in Complete Champion. They're initially referred to as "Domain Feats" (page 52). Page 53 is where it talks about trading out a Domain Granted Power.

[dpr99]

As I said, it's in Complete Champion. They're initially referred to as "Domain Feats" (page 52). Page 53 is where it talks about trading out a Domain Granted Power.

Ah, sorry, I missed that small paragraph about it. Had to re-read several times too just to understand what it was saying.

On another note, I think I have one final question as I assemble this character. My DM has allowed my levels of Cloistered Cleric to Rebuke Dragons. As a Radiant Servant of Pelor he's allowing me to Turn Undead. I have Extra Turning once. With my 18 cha this yields me a total 22. So with DMM I can persist 3 spells right? That leaves me one additional Turn Undead which, with Sun domain I can apply Greater Turning and destroy any undead I may have turned. Cool thing to have hanging around jic. My question though is, if I'm a Cloistered Cleric 6 (gives Rebuke Undead)/Radiant Servant 4 (gives Turn Undead), I roll a 10 on my turning check, can I only turn up to a 4HD undead or a 10HD undead? I'm assuming it's the 4HD but wanted to see if I'm missing any wording here.

Thanks for all your help, many of you totally held my hand through this and I REALLY appreciate it. I'm not a cleric kind of guy but this is shaping up to be way more fun than I anticipated.

[Dagroth]

Ah, sorry, I missed that small paragraph about it. Had to re-read several times too just to understand what it was saying.

On another note, I think I have one final question as I assemble this character. My DM has allowed my levels of Cloistered Cleric to Rebuke Dragons. As a Radiant Servant of Pelor he's allowing me to Turn Undead. I have Extra Turning once. With my 18 cha this yields me a total 22. So with DMM I can persist 3 spells right? That leaves me one additional Turn Undead which, with Sun domain I can apply Greater Turning and destroy any undead I may have turned. Cool thing to have hanging around jic. My question though is, if I'm a Cloistered Cleric 6 (gives Rebuke Undead)/Radiant Servant 4 (gives Turn Undead), I roll a 10 on my turning check, can I only turn up to a 4HD undead or a 10HD undead? I'm assuming it's the 4HD but wanted to see if I'm missing any wording here.

Thanks for all your help, many of you totally held my hand through this and I REALLY appreciate it. I'm not a cleric kind of guy but this is shaping up to be way more fun than I anticipated.

By the Rules as Written, Radiant Servant of Pelor levels stack with class levels that grant Turn Undead.

You could try to say that "ordinarily, Cleric Levels grant Turn Undead"... but I wouldn't let that fly. A lenient DM might, but you're getting twice as many turn attempts to fuel DMM after all.

[GilesTheCleric]

By the Rules as Written, Radiant Servant of Pelor levels stack with class levels that grant Turn Undead.

You could try to say that "ordinarily, Cleric Levels grant Turn Undead"... but I wouldn't let that fly. A lenient DM might, but you're getting twice as many turn attempts to fuel DMM after all.

That makes sense as a house rule, but turns are based on your effective Cleric level. RSoP adds to your Clr level to boost your effective turning level. So if you're Clr 6/ RSoP 4, your effective turning level is 10. You'll rebuke, turn, rebuke dragons, turn oozes, whatever, as if you were 10th level.

[Dagroth]

That makes sense as a house rule, but turns are based on your effective Cleric level. RSoP adds to your Clr level to boost your effective turning level. So if you're Clr 6/ RSoP 4, your effective turning level is 10. You'll rebuke, turn, rebuke dragons, turn oozes, whatever, as if you were 10th level.

That's what I would normally use. However, the OP said that his DM is allowing RSoP to provide a pool of Turn Undead on its own... so it shouldn't stack with the Cleric's levels of Rebuke Dragons and vice-versa.

Much like if you got levels of Death Delver and Rebuke Undead.

[GilesTheCleric]

That's what I would normally use. However, the OP said that his DM is allowing RSoP to provide a pool of Turn Undead on its own... so it shouldn't stack with the Cleric's levels of Rebuke Dragons and vice-versa.

Much like if you got levels of Death Delver and Rebuke Undead.

Ah, I missed that part, sorry. In that case, you'll have to ask your GM whether it stacks. I'd tend to agree and assume it doesn't, but who knows.

[dpr99]

That's what I would normally use. However, the OP said that his DM is allowing RSoP to provide a pool of Turn Undead on its own... so it shouldn't stack with the Cleric's levels of Rebuke Dragons and vice-versa.

Much like if you got levels of Death Delver and Rebuke Undead.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So in your DMM Guide, you talk about getting Rebuke Dragons as part of base cleric. Ok, I got that. So RSOP would stack its levels for that but not provide it's own pool of Turning despite having other anti-undead abilities? I'm trying to make sure I understand the differences so bare with me. In your DMM Guide you also mention dipping into Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead and Death Dealer for Rebuke Undead in order to multiply your overall number of turns to feed DMM. Based on how RSoP is handled, wouldn't these two other classes be handled the same way with their turning and stack giving combined turning level instead of providing extra DMM pools?

PS - I should change the title to "An Idiot's Guide to DMM"...me being the idiot obviously.

[Dagroth]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. So in your DMM Guide, you talk about getting Rebuke Dragons as part of base cleric. Ok, I got that. So RSOP would stack its levels for that but not provide it's own pool of Turning despite having other anti-undead abilities? I'm trying to make sure I understand the differences so bare with me. In your DMM Guide you also mention dipping into Sacred Exorcist to get Turn Undead and Death Dealer for Rebuke Undead in order to multiply your overall number of turns to feed DMM. Based on how RSoP is handled, wouldn't these two other classes be handled the same way with their turning and stack giving combined turning level instead of providing extra DMM pools?

PS - I should change the title to "An Idiot's Guide to DMM"...me being the idiot obviously.

Don't worry about it.

Sacred Exorcist & Death Delver both specifically state that they give you Turn Undead/Rebuke Undead. This is because both of those classes can be entered without having to have Turn/Rebuke Undead already.

Radiant Servant of Pelor only says that it adds its level to your Cleric Levels for Turn Undead...

Which, on further reflection, indicates that your theoretical Cleric 6/RSoP 4 would Turn Undead as a 10th level Cleric, but only Rebuke Dragons as a 6th level Cleric. It's still debatable if you would gain a Turn Undead pool with RSoP, since it doesn't specify so like Sacred Exorcist does.

According to the description of the Extra Turning Feat, you can't get it unless you have Turn/Rebuke Undead. However, the rules for Rebuke Dragons (and Channel Incarnum) say that it counts as having Turn/Rebuke Undead for all purposes of Divine Feats, which would include the Extra Turning Feat. Which means, of course, that you can't become a RSoP unless you already have Turn/Rebuke Undead (or one of the two above replacements.

Also of note is that only RSoP, Sacred Exorcist & WarPriest (of the PrCs in Complete Divine) stack levels for Turn Undead. But both RSoP and WarPriest require you to already have Turn/Rebuke Undead to get in to the class.

[dpr99]

Don't worry about it.

Sacred Exorcist & Death Delver both specifically state that they give you Turn Undead/Rebuke Undead. This is because both of those classes can be entered without having to have Turn/Rebuke Undead already.

Radiant Servant of Pelor only says that it adds its level to your Cleric Levels for Turn Undead...

Which, on further reflection, indicates that your theoretical Cleric 6/RSoP 4 would Turn Undead as a 10th level Cleric, but only Rebuke Dragons as a 6th level Cleric. It's still debatable if you would gain a Turn Undead pool with RSoP, since it doesn't specify so like Sacred Exorcist does.

According to the description of the Extra Turning Feat, you can't get it unless you have Turn/Rebuke Undead. However, the rules for Rebuke Dragons (and Channel Incarnum) say that it counts as having Turn/Rebuke Undead for all purposes of Divine Feats, which would include the Extra Turning Feat. Which means, of course, that you can't become a RSoP unless you already have Turn/Rebuke Undead (or one of the two above replacements.

Also of note is that only RSoP, Sacred Exorcist & WarPriest (of the PrCs in Complete Divine) stack levels for Turn Undead. But both RSoP and WarPriest require you to already have Turn/Rebuke Undead to get in to the class.

Ah! Got it, makes perfect sense now. So if I were Cloistered 6 and Sacred Exorcist 4 instead, I'd rebuke dragons as level 6 and Turn Undead as level 4 right? The reason you're saying Radiant Servant of Pelor would would turn at 10th is because the wording "adds it's level to your Cleric level"?

[Dagroth]

Ah! Got it, makes perfect sense now. So if I were Cloistered 6 and Sacred Exorcist 4 instead, I'd rebuke dragons as level 6 and Turn Undead as level 4 right? The reason you're saying Radiant Servant of Pelor would would turn at 10th is because the wording "adds it's level to your Cleric level"?

Actually, since Sacred Exorcist says "If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to determine her effective turning level." You are exactly correct.

RSoP says "A radiant servant of Pelor adds his radiant servant class levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead." And the Rebuke Dragons ACF says it replaces Turn/Rebuke Undead for all purposes... so RSoP would increase the effective level.

While WarPriest says "Levels of warpriest stack with any of the character’s cleric or paladin levels when turning or rebuking undead."

So WarPriest would increase your effective level for Rebuke Dragons, but not give you Turn Undead... which Sacred Exorcist specifically does.

I'm sure there are lots of other Cleric Prestige Classes that should be clarified like this, but that's beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do at the moment.



Maybe tomorrow. :smallbiggrin:

[dpr99]

Actually, since Sacred Exorcist says "If a sacred exorcist has this ability from another class, her class levels stack to determine her effective turning level." You are exactly correct.

RSoP says "A radiant servant of Pelor adds his radiant servant class levels to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead." And the Rebuke Dragons ACF says it replaces Turn/Rebuke Undead for all purposes... so RSoP would increase the effective level.

While WarPriest says "Levels of warpriest stack with any of the character’s cleric or paladin levels when turning or rebuking undead."

So WarPriest would increase your effective level for Rebuke Dragons, but not give you Turn Undead... which Sacred Exorcist specifically does.

I'm sure there are lots of other Cleric Prestige Classes that should be clarified like this, but that's beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do at the moment.



Maybe tomorrow. :smallbiggrin:

Finally ready for some DMM fun. I'm thinking of any last minute tweaks I should make in line with all the help I've gotten here and I keep coming back to "is there a way to minimize my Rebuke Dragons effective turn level in favor of increasing my Turn Undead effective level while maintaining both pools?"

DMM is awesome but in the event we come across plenty of undead (seems likely with this DM), I'd like to be able to use my one or two left over turn attempts to blow them apart via the bonuses of the RSoP PrC. I'm guessing you're going to tell me "welp man, that's the trade off for optimizing DMM" but hey, it's worth a shot since you guys have crazy amounts of knowledge on making the rules work for you.

[Dagroth]

Finally ready for some DMM fun. I'm thinking of any last minute tweaks I should make in line with all the help I've gotten here and I keep coming back to "is there a way to minimize my Rebuke Dragons effective turn level in favor of increasing my Turn Undead effective level while maintaining both pools?"

DMM is awesome but in the event we come across plenty of undead (seems likely with this DM), I'd like to be able to use my one or two left over turn attempts to blow them apart via the bonuses of the RSoP PrC. I'm guessing you're going to tell me "welp man, that's the trade off for optimizing DMM" but hey, it's worth a shot since you guys have crazy amounts of knowledge on making the rules work for you.

By the way the class is written, Radiant Servant of Pelor adds it's levels to your Cleric levels for the purpose of Turning Undead... even if you previously were Rebuking Dragons of Channeling Incarnum.

I haven't done much research beyond that, but Sacred Exorcist says it stacks with "another class that provides Turn Undead". So if you went RSoP and then SE, RSoP would make your Cleric level stack and then they would both stack with SE.

RSoP is the only class that specifically says it stacks with your Cleric Level, not with the level of "a class that allows you to Turn Undead."

Edit: So a Cleric-5/RSoP-2/SE-3 would Turn Undead as a 10th level Cleric, even if you started out with Rebuke Dragons.

[dpr99]

By the way the class is written, Radiant Servant of Pelor adds it's levels to your Cleric levels for the purpose of Turning Undead... even if you previously were Rebuking Dragons of Channeling Incarnum.

I haven't done much research beyond that, but Sacred Exorcist says it stacks with "another class that provides Turn Undead". So if you went RSoP and then SE, RSoP would make your Cleric level stack and then they would both stack with SE.

RSoP is the only class that specifically says it stacks with your Cleric Level, not with the level of "a class that allows you to Turn Undead."

Edit: So a Cleric-5/RSoP-2/SE-3 would Turn Undead as a 10th level Cleric, even if you started out with Rebuke Dragons.

Perfect! So to make sure I understand the mechanic, at Cleric-5/RSoP-2 (character lvl 7) you'd Rebuke Dragons as if you were still Cleric-5 with the RSoP ability to add onto TURNING effectively being useless as you couldn't Turn. Upon gaining a level and taking a dip into SE making you Cleric-5/RSoP-2/SE-1, you would then Turn Undead as an 8th level Cleric while still Rebuking Dragons as a 5th level Cleric...right?

[Dagroth]

Perfect! So to make sure I understand the mechanic, at Cleric-5/RSoP-2 (character lvl 7) you'd Rebuke Dragons as if you were still Cleric-5 with the RSoP ability to add onto TURNING effectively being useless as you couldn't Turn. Upon gaining a level and taking a dip into SE making you Cleric-5/RSoP-2/SE-1, you would then Turn Undead as an 8th level Cleric while still Rebuking Dragons as a 5th level Cleric...right?

You have it exactly correct.