Ways to Improve Melee Revised Ranger (Play Tested)

[masterstrider]

I think it's safe to say that the revised Ranger could do with some tweaks in order to make it work a bit better. My group and I have been testing out some light rule changes to see how we could improve the melee Hunter spec, which is completely outclassed by the ranged focus. This will bring it up to par with the ranged Ranger and other martial classes, without outclassing the Paladin or Fighter. The changes are very simple and we thought they still kept the basic spirit of the melee Ranger.

Below are the issues and resolutions we applied:
1. Melee has no decent spells to buff damage and make it on par with Ranged combat.
Resolution: Changed Swift Quiver so that it could work with any melee weapon, changing it's name to Swift Strike. Swift Strike allowed the melee Ranger to be damage comparable to the ranged Ranger with a longbow. It also helped the Ranger after 11th level where their damage basically plateaued.

2. Whirlwind Attack is clunky, situation and not very consistent. Given the Ranger can generate 3-4 attacks fairly consistently without it (TWF and Horde Breaker), the special ability is only useful when completely surrounded i.e. it sucks and doesn't really come up very often.
Resolution:
Swapped out Whirlwind Attack and instead gave the Ranger the Haste spell at level 11. The Ranger can cast it as though they has acquired the spell at 11th level. This change alone gave the Ranger the option to gain some much needed AC in the form of the Haste spell and increased their attacks by one, to keep it on par with the Paladin's Divine Smites and Fighter's Extra Attacks. It also kept the feel of the Ranger's mobility.
It also meant that you could play TWF, Great Weapon or Duelist without feeling gimped in any way. TWF had a higher AC due to Haste and the higher Dex, but the GWF were hitting harder.

3. Defense fighting style did not fit the class and was swapped out.
Resolution: Swapped out Defense for Great Weapon Fighting Style to suit the two-handed ranger (Aragorn) feel. This should have been done ages ago. Not sure what Mike was thinking with this move.

4. Two-Weapon Fighting and Dueling consistently fell behind in damage to Great Weapon and Ranged combat, purely because of Feats like Great Weapon Master (GWM) and Sharpshooter (SS).
Resolution:
This is not just a Ranger specific issue. GWM and SS considerably add a lot of damage to two-handed ranged/melee classes, leaving the TWF and Duelist classes in the dust.

We play tested two scenarios:
Scenario 1. Added a new feat called Cleave. This expanded GWM so that it would work for single weapon fighting styles but adjusted the bonus to -2 to hit penalty/+5 damage bonus. The feat remained the same for all intents and purposes.
Scenario 2. Kept GWM and SS the same, except we removed the damage bonus -5 to hit/+10 dam from the feat.

We found that true to the 5th ed style, combat was quicker for Scenario 1, and it balanced out TWF and Dueling so that it didn't feel so far behind Great Weapon and Ranged combat. GWF was still in front, as it should be, given you sacrificed some defence. In fact, damage was comparable as the characters leveled up with no significant spikes in damage. Scenario two also evened out the damage, but it slowed combat down. In the end we kept Cleave (Scenario 1).

So, there you have it. Four simple changes that basically turned the melee Ranger and single weapon combat into useful parts of the D&D game.

Sorry for the long post, but if you have any questions, comments, insights or are interested in some number crunch (in Excel of course), please let me know.

MS.

[djreynolds]

I feel ya, my favorite class growing up in the dark ages was the ranger.

Never did roll well enough in 1E to play a paladin, but did get to play a ranger

1. Remember all those spell like conjure barrage, lightning arrow, and hail of thorns can be done with a hand axe or dagger. No reason you cannot approach an enemy with an enemy with a dagger in one-hand an throw it first and then draw out your polearm off your back..

2. Yes, I would allow you a non-concentration based haste ability at 11th instead of whirlwind... its not overpowering for an 11th level PC. Just make it short rest based

3. When it comes to GWM/SS, our table scales it simply with proficiency bonus, -2 to hit/ +4 damage all the way up to -6/+12, So at 5th you only get up to -3/+6... this works

4. I allow players to swap out fighting styles, it isn't game changing

5. For TWF, TW rend, what I have done and it works is, if you hit an opponent with both your main hand and off-hand... you simply add double your proficiency bonus in damage. So at 5th level... +6. But you have to hit with both... this works

I hope this helps

[masterstrider]

I feel ya, my favorite class growing up in the dark ages was the ranger.

Never did roll well enough in 1E to play a paladin, but did get to play a ranger

1. Remember all those spell like conjure barrage, lightning arrow, and hail of thorns can be done with a hand axe or dagger. No reason you cannot approach an enemy with an enemy with a dagger in one-hand an throw it first and then draw out your polearm off your back..

2. Yes, I would allow you a non-concentration based haste ability at 11th instead of whirlwind... its not overpowering for an 11th level PC. Just make it short rest based

3. When it comes to GWM/SS, our table scales it simply with proficiency bonus, -2 to hit/ +4 damage all the way up to -6/+12, So at 5th you only get up to -3/+6... this works

4. I allow players to swap out fighting styles, it isn't game changing

5. For TWF, TW rend, what I have done and it works is, if you hit an opponent with both your main hand and off-hand... you simply add double your proficiency bonus in damage. So at 5th level... +6. But you have to hit with both... this works

I hope this helps

Thanks for the response :)

Rolling a Ranger: my 2nd Ed Ranger had Dex 9 and Str 13. I rolled so friggin badly and the GM was pretty rough about it. The pain was real! LOL. But I still loved the class :)

1. True. Good call on that. I would have preferred some spells that help the ranger in melee, not using a melee weapon to trigger a ranged spell. The spells are pretty good, no issues there, but it's the theme I'd like to keep.

2. Actually, the intent is that the Ranger gains the Haste spell, and can cast as part of his known spells list. It's only fair given that you're losing Whirlwind Attack completely. By comparison, Volley is much better and it should feel like by not taking it, you're getting something worthwhile/comparable.

3 & 5. I like these changes, also fairly neat. What about Dueling style? Do you do anything to bring it's damage up? Is that double proficiency bonus also?

MS

[djreynolds]

Thanks for the response :)

Rolling a Ranger: my 2nd Ed Ranger had Dex 9 and Str 13. I rolled so friggin badly and the GM was pretty rough about it. The pain was real! LOL. But I still loved the class :)

1. True. Good call on that. I would have preferred some spells that help the ranger in melee, not using a melee weapon to trigger a ranged spell. The spells are pretty good, no issues there, but it's the theme I'd like to keep.

2. Actually, the intent is that the Ranger gains the Haste spell, and can cast as part of his known spells list. It's only fair given that you're losing Whirlwind Attack completely. By comparison, Volley is much better and it should feel like by not taking it, you're getting something worthwhile/comparable.

3 & 5. I like these changes, also fairly neat. What about Dueling style? Do you do anything to bring it's damage up? Is that double proficiency bonus also?

MS

In regards to 2, you are losing whirlwind, this is an at will power.... way more powerful than haste... which a wizard could always cast on you. You are gimping yourself.

I don't know how many guys you can shoot or stab with volley/whirlwind but is it worth more than a spell you still have to have a slot to cast and is concentration... lost hunter's mark/stoneskin

Giving you the haste spell... well that ain't a fair trade. You are Losing Out

I would give in exchange for losing whirlwind or volley a FREE haste ability rechargeable on a short rest.... non-concentration also

I would give you a free short-rest, non-concentration haste spell-like ability in exchange

For two-weapon fighting, our table has used this for 2 years.... if you hit with both weapons (main hand and off-hand) you just simply add 2x your proficiency modifier, scales from +4 to +12.

Does not work with PAM

If you only have say a magic scimitar and normal short sword versus a rakshasa (who requires a magic item to hit) or an iron golem who requires adamantium weapons.... you lose out

[masterstrider]

In regards to 2, you are losing whirlwind, this is an at will power.... way more powerful than haste... which a wizard could always cast on you. You are gimping yourself.

I don't know how many guys you can shoot or stab with volley/whirlwind but is it worth more than a spell you still have to have a slot to cast and is concentration... lost hunter's mark/stoneskin

Giving you the haste spell... well that ain't a fair trade. You are Losing Out

I would give in exchange for losing whirlwind or volley a FREE haste ability rechargeable on a short rest.... non-concentration also

I would give you a free short-rest, non-concentration haste spell-like ability in exchange


All good suggestions. Perhaps twice per short rest would be better, but it would need some play testing. We rarely take short rests, and it would be DM dependent.

Another idea I've been toying with was increasing the range of Whirlwind Attack to 10ft, to match Volley. I read in the Sage Advice responses that you cannot move and use Whirlwind Attack to spread out the AoE.

Haste just seems easier and doesn't need any new fancy rules to be written up. I'm open to other ideas, hence the reason for the OP.

MS

[djreynolds]

Haste just seems expensive, as it is a 3rd level spell, you only have so many and it is concentration... so no lightning arrow or stoneskin

You could whirlwind every attack, I would make it an ability recharged on a short rest... or 3x times a long rest... and no concentration, rangers really do have great spells, its why I like rangers TWFing as they can always toss on off hand dagger right before they charge in

So theoretically you can use lightning arrow with a hand axe with your off-hand as a bonus action fry up a gang of fools, interact with item and draw a greatsword off you back and then move and now use your whirlwind on the same gang of fools

Now you don't always have gangs of fools who live past lightning arrow/conjure barrage and then need to be skewered....

So whirlwind and volley are powerful, much more than haste because you cannot use lightning arrow and such because of concentration

Now since you are running a long rest campaign, it is said most games require to 2 short rests a day which would mean a fighter at 11th level would get 3 action surges a day, so just give your ranger a haste ability 3 times a day

[Sir cryosin]

The hunter ranger likes to take from other classes abilities so let's follow that formula. By taking the fighters action surge give it a stipulation where it can only be used with melee weapon attacks.

[MrStabby]

You should take a look at the ranger that Wizards released in the unearthed arcana here: http://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf

It is a really powerful class with a lot of great abilities and would be a good option for you if you want a class that doesn't need any buffing. I has a solid combat base with lots of ways to contribute to the other pillars of the game as well.

[masterstrider]

You should take a look at the ranger that Wizards released in the unearthed arcana here:

It is a really powerful class with a lot of great abilities and would be a good option for you if you want a class that doesn't need any buffing. I has a solid combat base with lots of ways to contribute to the other pillars of the game as well.

The recommendations are based off the Revised Ranger from UA, hence the title Melee "Revised Ranger".

[masterstrider]

The hunter ranger likes to take from other classes abilities so let's follow that formula. By taking the fighters action surge give it a stipulation where it can only be used with melee weapon attacks.

That's an option I looked at with the group, but Action Surge is the fighter's thing. I wanted to keep the class unique and interesting. Thanks for the suggestion though!

[MrStabby]

The recommendations are based off the Revised Ranger from UA, hence the title Melee "Revised Ranger".

Yes I know. But I wanted to give people a chance to reconsider before I formed a judgement.

[masterstrider]

Haste just seems expensive, as it is a 3rd level spell, you only have so many and it is concentration... so no lightning arrow or stoneskin

You could whirlwind every attack, I would make it an ability recharged on a short rest... or 3x times a long rest... and no concentration, rangers really do have great spells, its why I like rangers TWFing as they can always toss on off hand dagger right before they charge in

So theoretically you can use lightning arrow with a hand axe with your off-hand as a bonus action fry up a gang of fools, interact with item and draw a greatsword off you back and then move and now use your whirlwind on the same gang of fools

Now you don't always have gangs of fools who live past lightning arrow/conjure barrage and then need to be skewered....

So whirlwind and volley are powerful, much more than haste because you cannot use lightning arrow and such because of concentration

Now since you are running a long rest campaign, it is said most games require to 2 short rests a day which would mean a fighter at 11th level would get 3 action surges a day, so just give your ranger a haste ability 3 times a day

Great example you've given there, but in reality Whirlwind Attack doesn't need to be activated because you're already dishing out 3-4 attacks/targets per round anyway. See below:
GWF: 2 attacks + horde breaker = three targets hit. You need 3+ targets within 5ft to even trigger WA, which is not easy.
TWF: 2 attacks + bonus attack + horde breaker = four targets hit. You need 3+ targets within 5ft to even trigger WA, which is not easy.
Dueling: 2 attacks + horde breaker = two-three targets hit. WA will only give you an extra attack max.

Don't get me wrong, Whirlwind Attack could be great, but monsters don't just line up so your Ranger can smash them to pieces. You're making it sound like it's the better of the two options when I am saying it's not even being triggered because most players are clever with how they use their attacks (see e.g. above).

Even Haste is not as good an option, but it doesn't break the action economy, lasts multiple rounds and doesn't rely on you having 4+ monsters within 5ft in order to use it. Using Haste as a once/twice per short rest sounds like a nice balance, especially since it frees up the concentration slot and uses mechanics already established in the game.

I'm keen to try Whirlwind Attack within 10ft to see how that plays out. It tends to offer that feel of a Ranger cutting a swathe through a pack of monsters without actually moving. Maybe it can be an upgraded attack where it starts at 5ft at 11th level, and expands to 10ft at 14th level.

Anyway, the combo we tried was Haste is now a spell/encounter power at 11th level, and Swift Quiver became Swift Attack (includes melee and ranged attacks, not just ranged) at 17th level, which offered more attacks anyway. We found with the 4 changes above, he was dealing plenty of damage and could still nova with ranged spells before moving in to slaughter stuff. He's a good AoE character, in contrast to the Paladin who is better at single target.

MS

[masterstrider]

Yes I know. But I wanted to give people a chance to reconsider before I formed a judgement.

Reconsider what exactly? I'm not sure I follow your train of thought.

I'm stating in my OP that the changes we made was to improve a melee Ranger since it still under performs compared to the ranged Ranger offered to players in the UA article, Ranger, Revised.

[MeeposFire]

Yea whirlwind attack is not very good and that has been true. Without the ability to move between attacks whirlwind attack is difficult to use effectively since it is rare to get enough targets around you to make it worth using over the attack action. This is made worse if you use the "classic" two weapon fighting that rangers are fluffed to use in melee in many recent editions.