DND 3.5e and PF Create (Greater) Undead Improvement?

[Xar Zarath]

So Create Undead and its more powerful Greater version have been mainstays of the enterprising necromancer char. Always these spells allow the char to create any type of undead, within the stated rules as well as DM discretion. However one issue I do find iffy is that it's stated that created undead are not automatically under the control of the caster as shown by the spells below.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead/

Note that only in Pathfinder one type of created undead can be created loyal to the caster, that is the blast shadow.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/blast-shadow/

What impact on a campaign or game in general would be if the spell(s) were instead altered slightly but in a significant manner? The spells for Create Undead and Greater version instead state that created undead are created loyal to the caster but count towards HD of undead controlled etc as normal.

Would that be too game breaking or too OP? Thoughts on this and note that this also covers the Pathfinder version as well.

[JoshuaZ]

So Create Undead and its more powerful Greater version have been mainstays of the enterprising necromancer char. Always these spells allow the char to create any type of undead, within the stated rules as well as DM discretion. However one issue I do find iffy is that it's stated that created undead are not automatically under the control of the caster as shown by the spells below.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-undead/

Note that only in Pathfinder one type of created undead can be created loyal to the caster, that is the blast shadow.http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/blast-shadow/

What impact on a campaign or game in general would be if the spell(s) were instead altered slightly but in a significant manner? The spells for Create Undead and Greater version instead state that created undead are created loyal to the caster but count towards HD of undead controlled etc as normal.

Would that be too game breaking or too OP? Thoughts on this and note that this also covers the Pathfinder version as well.

I don't think it would be that game breaking in that big undead aren't that game breaking already; most necromancer builds are less game breaking than most other wizard specializations. However, it might be an issue for clerics in that they are already extremely effective as necromancers and this would also bump their power level.

[Xar Zarath]

Oh well, this is quite odd then, clerics getting more of a power boost from this than the wizard. Heck I thought it would already be too OP.

So since this doesn't affect the overall game balance for necromancy, would anyone allow it in-game for your own games though?

[Zanos]

The undead created by those spells pretty much universally suck by the levels you get them, and them being intelligent and difficult to control just makes it even less worth it. Letting you control them with your regular pool of HD would probably be fine. In core 3.5, at least. Splats or Pathfinder might have added some broken stuff. I know the Juju Zombies/Skeletal Champions that retain class levels in Pathfinder are particularly busted.

You want animate dead if you want a loyal army under RAW.

[OldTrees1]

Would that be too game breaking or too OP? Thoughts on this and note that this also covers the Pathfinder version as well.

Which undead pool would it count against? Obviously it would count against the Rebuke Undead pool and I will tell you why:
1) The Command Undead spell pool controls thousands and is capped by expenditure rather than by HD.
2) The Animate Dead pool controls a large number of HD and is currently only used as a buffer for the Command Undead pool. Additionally this is the pool the designers thought would be the undead army, so they have lots of support for increasing the HD limit of this pool.
3) The Rebuke Undead pool is the only pool that already permits the kind of undead that Create Undead can create. The other two pools are allowed to get so large because they are limited to skeletons and zombies.

To go a bit further into why you would not use the animate dead pool as the balancing mechanism:
20th level Dread Necromancer with 28 Cha
Base AD: 260 HD.
Undead Lieutenant(3rd level spell): +20 HD per 3rd level spell
Let's assume a modest 12 Lieutenants: That is 500 HD of quality undead in comparison to the 20 HD of quality undead from Rebuke Undead.

A smart necromancer can already do some crazy stuff with their Rebuke Undead control pool. They do not need to increase that pool by a factor of x25.

[Xar Zarath]

@OldTrees1: so essentially there are 3 "control" pools for undead control? Hmm, I thought the create undead line of spells for arcane casters especially those like wizards and sorcerers would count them towards animate dead control pool? or that hasn't been stated before?

[Gullintanni]

@OldTrees1: so essentially there are 3 "control" pools for undead control? Hmm, I thought the create undead line of spells for arcane casters especially those like wizards and sorcerers would count them towards animate dead control pool? or that hasn't been stated before?

Command Undead (the spell) imposes no limits on the number of undead you can control, save that once the duration expires, you lose control of the undead so controlled. With Extend, Persist and Chain Spell, you can control more undead than you'll be able to bring to bear in a single battle.

Then you have the Animate and Rebuke pools which have fixed limits.

Edit: Savvy Clerics Rebuke Shadows ;)

[OldTrees1]

@OldTrees1: so essentially there are 3 "control" pools for undead control? Hmm, I thought the create undead line of spells for arcane casters especially those like wizards and sorcerers would count them towards animate dead control pool? or that hasn't been stated before?

Well technically there are more than 3, but the others are either Leadership or are not worth mentioning. Heh, often animate dead is only worth mentioning because its stronger alternative can be overpowered.

The opening poster(you) did not specify which control pool they would count towards. I argued that it would be overpowered, or ridiculously overpowered if it was either control pool besides Rebuke Undead (How does 100 or even 60,000* 0th generation Wraiths** sound?).

However if it does count towards the Rebuke Undead Pool, then nothing really changed now has it? Before the proposed houserule Rebuke Undead was used to control the undead created.


*60,000 is a low estimate of the Command Undead spell control pool for any necromancer that focuses on it.
**Wraiths used as a well known undead. The actual problem would stem from the more creative options (like Corpse).


Now that said, I can see reason for limited expansion of the Rebuke Undead control pool or the addition of a larger less versatile control pool that is not limited to just skeletons and zombies. However it would be best if it were more restrictive than rebuke undead. 10 Ghasts at 10th level would be a hassle but is harder to mark as either overpowered or underpowered.

[Xar Zarath]

Hmm I do see some points in your post there...it is a bit difficult because create undead usually goes under rebuke (divine casters) or command/control undead (arcane casters)

However since the spell now is "fixed?" to include that create undead are created loyal, would that create a new pool for undead control?

[OldTrees1]

Hmm I do see some points in your post there...it is a bit difficult because create undead usually goes under rebuke (divine casters) or command/control undead (arcane casters)

However since the spell now is "fixed?" to include that create undead are created loyal, would that create a new pool for undead control?

I am starting to get confused. You are the opening poster right? The one that asked:

What impact on a campaign or game in general would be if the spell(s) were instead altered slightly but in a significant manner? The spells for Create Undead and Greater version instead state that created undead are created loyal to the caster but count towards HD of undead controlled etc as normal. Would that be too game breaking or too OP?

You did not specify what HD pool you were referring to so I have limited idea whether you meant the Animate Dead pool, the Rebuke Undead pool, or a new undefined pool.

All I do know is that choosing the Animate Dead pool would be a mistake(as detailed by exactly how large that "small" pool is), and that the Rebuke Undead pool is where those undead get sent currently (just not automatically) and it works with mixed results(chain spawning is obviously cheesy but otherwise Rebuke is balanced).

If you are wondering about Blast Shadows: Pathfinder allows an infinite number of uncontrolled yet inherently loyal Blast Shadows. Obviously this is cheese and should not be allowed.