Dread Necromancer build advice

[Rhyltran]

So the group I play with is starting a new game and I have decided on a Dread Necromancer (This is going to be 3.5 but under DM discretion we can use some pathfinder feats/abilities/spells) but the campaign is going to take place in the underdark. My original plan was to make an Enervation specialist that utilized enervation to it's maximum but given that everyone and their mother has spell resistance I started worrying that it might be a concern especially at higher levels.

So point buy is going to be 32 and my race is definitely going to be Drow but we do have access to two flaws. I also don't want to be too minion focused mostly because I don't want to bog the rounds down with an army of undead. If I do focus around undead it would be a few big scary and powerful undead rather than an army of canon fodder. Dragon Magazine is on the table under DM discretion and I plan to stick with Dread Necromancer levels all the way through even if it's not the most optimal path.

So what I'm asking for is.. possible build advice on how to build a Dread Necromancer around a few big scary undead as opposed to an army or finding a way to get around spell resistance as a Dread Necromancer. Oh, LA isn't a problem because I'm going to go with the savage Drow variant. So I'm not worried on that either.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Just here to recommend my usual Horned Harbinger dip... wait, you're playing a drow!? Well, allow me to fetch you the Yathrinshee, good sir/madam!


Okay, Yathrinshee suck a little. You have to play a drow lady with a serious undead fetish, you're a theurge, and you lose some caster levels (levels 1, 4, 7, and 10 are noncasting, the others are dual-casting). But there are upsides.

First, there's the first-level ability: Necromancer. Stack your arcane and divine caster levels for all necromancy spells. Okay, very nice - command undead and animate dead are low-level spells that benefit from a high caster level.

Second, the second-level ability: Threnody. This is more of a flavour thing, but it's awesome. Threnody grants all undead within 30' (and yourself) "a gaze attack identical to the unnerving gaze of a chain devil". From the Monster Manual: "A chain devil can make its face resemble one of an opponent’s departed loved ones or bitter enemies. Those who fail their saves take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for 1d3 rounds". In the case of Threnody, if the undead in question is an animated friend or companion of the gaze's target, the penalty is doubled. Are you slowing down the second division gnome paladins with the animated corpses of the first division gnome paladins? Why yes, you are!

Third, the fifth-level ability: Curse of the Revenancer. Anything you kill rises as a zombie under your control, immediately.


In short: If you were looking to drop a chunk of casting in favour of very powerful lower-level necromancy, Yathrinshee will do that. With something like death master 1-2/cleric 1-2/mystic theurge 2/yathrinshee 3, you have a level 8 build with 6th-level and 5th-level casting, and a caster level of 11 for necromancy (or 14, with Practiced Spellcaster - it's easy to boost it higher). At higher levels, it'll allow you to punch through SR with enervation, too. You can even do the unspeakable and go into True Necromancer, or continue Yathrinshee, dropping even more casting for suboptimal flavour abilities.

Death master 1-2/cleric 1-2/mystic theurge 2/yathrinshee 3/true necromancer 12 gets you casting at level 15 and level 16, with a caster level for necromancy spells at 39, before other boosts.



For a dread necromancer build, pick up animate dead from the Death Master list using your 4th-level Advanced Learning, and consumptive field with your 8th-level Advanced Learning.

[Gnaeus]

So the group I play with is starting a new game and I have decided on a Dread Necromancer (This is going to be 3.5 but under DM discretion we can use some pathfinder feats/abilities/spells) but the campaign is going to take place in the underdark. My original plan was to make an Enervation specialist that utilized enervation to it's maximum but given that everyone and their mother has spell resistance I started worrying that it might be a concern especially at higher levels.

So point buy is going to be 32 and my race is definitely going to be Drow but we do have access to two flaws. I also don't want to be too minion focused mostly because I don't want to bog the rounds down with an army of undead. If I do focus around undead it would be a few big scary and powerful undead rather than an army of canon fodder. Dragon Magazine is on the table under DM discretion and I plan to stick with Dread Necromancer levels all the way through even if it's not the most optimal path.

So what I'm asking for is.. possible build advice on how to build a Dread Necromancer around a few big scary undead as opposed to an army or finding a way to get around spell resistance as a Dread Necromancer. Oh, LA isn't a problem because I'm going to go with the savage Drow variant. So I'm not worried on that either.

If your goal is sticking with Dread Necro, your primary goal is spell list expansion. You've ruled out PRCs so the other easy method is feats like divine disciple. You'll need a decent wisdom and try to find a god with a couple of good domains as you are likely to want to take it twice. Keep your UMD high both for captured gear and for your familiar to use. Try to lay hands on a runestaff with spells you don't have. If you can't be a necropolitan you definitely need Tomb Tainted Soul so you can heal yourself, and recommend it to other party members as well. Given your minionmancy and the need for beating SR, you might aim for some buffs for your pets/teammates instead of hitting enemies with spells directly

[D&DPrinceTandem]

So the group I play with is starting a new game and I have decided on a Dread Necromancer (This is going to be 3.5 but under DM discretion we can use some pathfinder feats/abilities/spells) but the campaign is going to take place in the underdark. My original plan was to make an Enervation specialist that utilized enervation to it's maximum but given that everyone and their mother has spell resistance I started worrying that it might be a concern especially at higher levels.

So point buy is going to be 32 and my race is definitely going to be Drow but we do have access to two flaws. I also don't want to be too minion focused mostly because I don't want to bog the rounds down with an army of undead. If I do focus around undead it would be a few big scary and powerful undead rather than an army of canon fodder. Dragon Magazine is on the table under DM discretion and I plan to stick with Dread Necromancer levels all the way through even if it's not the most optimal path.

So what I'm asking for is.. possible build advice on how to build a Dread Necromancer around a few big scary undead as opposed to an army or finding a way to get around spell resistance as a Dread Necromancer. Oh, LA isn't a problem because I'm going to go with the savage Drow variant. So I'm not worried on that either.
Well first i would like to refer you here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)

Now for my quick and easy build

Now i don't know about savage drow but i didn't put anything down

Race: Necropolitan(LM) Drow
Class: Dread necromancer 1-10/ Pale master 1-10
Stat distribute/prority: Cha-Int-Dex-Wis-Str-Con


Point:32 total

Ability

Score

Modifer

Level bonus

Magic items bonus



0 (start 8)

Str
8

-1





3(start 11)

Dex

11

0





0(start 8)

Con
-

-

undead



10(start 16)

Int
22

3


Headband of int +6



2(start 10)

Wis

10

0





16(start 18)

Cha
34

12

5

Cloak of cha +6+5 tome



Magic items every Dn needs:
Headband of int+6
Cloak of cha+6
Rod of undead mastery
Night stickes (as many as possible)
Main undead control:
Slaymate
Wights
Wraiths
Skeleton Pixie (2d6 dmg for something that has 12 hp)
So now lets start with feat



Feat name

Feat ability in summary



Flaw

Faerie Mysteries Initiate

When taken trade using con for Hp to Int for hp



Flaw

Corpescrafter

Undead you create get +4 str and +2 hp per HD



1)

Fell animate

When enemy dies to the augmented spell they come back as zombies under your control



3)

Profane life leech

use rebuke attemp to drain health (max rain to 0) of those around an then heal said damage dealt



6)

Destructive Retribution

Undead explode when dead dealing 1d6 + 1d6/2hd negitive damage (heals you and you minions)



9)

Skill focus (knowledge Rel)
bonus to said skill (prereq for Pale master)


12)

Lord of uttercold
cold spells only



15)

Death frost spell

spells gain cold discriptor +2d6 col damage



18)

Undead leaadership

Leadership that is 10x better





Will finish in a little but i am posting now because I am work filled.

[Deophaun]

I do like everyone that missed the whole "I'm going DN20 even though it's not the most optimal." It's a fine choice, though. But don't skip over undead entirely; just because you don't want to use them in combat doesn't mean there isn't a use for a bar-lgua corpse creature.

SR is a concern, but there are ways around it.

You are an arcane caster, which means you can use eternal wands. Pick up one or two of true casting.

For your Advanced Learning at level 4, take Kilgore's gravemist and couple it with Fell Drain; it doesn't matter if you don't overcome SR, gravemist still deals its damage which triggers Fell Drain.

Similarly, there's doom scarabs at level 8, which is unique for you as it's really your only blasting spell.

Ask if knowstones or drake helms are allowed. If they are, feel free to trash your Wisdom score and don't bother with arcane disciple. You can use these to pick up assay spell resistance. Also, check out the bloodline feats in the Dragon Magazine compendium.

[OldTrees1]

My original plan was to make an Enervation specialist that utilized enervation to it's maximum but given that everyone and their mother has spell resistance I started worrying that it might be a concern especially at higher levels.

So what I'm asking for is.. possible build advice on how to build a Dread Necromancer around a few big scary undead as opposed to an army or finding a way to get around spell resistance as a Dread Necromancer. Oh, LA isn't a problem because I'm going to go with the savage Drow variant. So I'm not worried on that either.

The Chain Spell metamagic feat will help you with your enervation specialization.

A higher caster level will help vs SR. Personally I am fond of using Circle Magic but you might have your own preference.

Remember your familiar can deliver touch spells too.

Eventually you will want Animate Dread Warrior so you can start using your leveled enemies as strong undead.


a bar-lgua corpse creature.

Obviously you meant this to be controlled via Rebuke Undead so I am wondering:
1)What does a bar-lgua bring? (this is the smallest control pool & the most versatile control pool so it is tough competition)
2)Why Corpse creature rather than another template? Perhaps Wight or Wraith from Savage Species?

[Kayblis]

If you have a feat to spare, Arcane Mastery allows you to take 10 on caster level checks. Couple it with a few CL boosters and you'll beat almost any SR automatically. Also, you can use no-SR spells to great effect with metamagic, like the already mentioned Kelgore's Gravemist.

I suggest you use your enormous control pool to make and sustain a base with lesser undead, like a smaller version of Leadership. At level 10 you'll probably have a control pool of over 100HD, that's enough to have an undead bodyguard with double your HD and still fill a small castle with 1HD skeletons. Also remember that undead you no longer control are not instantly destroyed, so you can have a security system that uses uncontrolled undead that attack on sight.

[Deophaun]

1)What does a bar-lgua bring? (this is the smallest control pool & the most versatile control pool so it is tough competition)
Greater teleport + abduction.

2)Why Corpse creature rather than another template? Perhaps Wight or Wraith from Savage Species?

“Wight” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid (hereafter called the base creature)

“Wraith” is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid.

Bar-lgura
Always CE Medium outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanar’ri)

“Corpse” is a template that can be added to any nonundead, nonconstruct, nonplant corporeal creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature)

[Rhyltran]

Thank you all so much! I am surprised at the sheer number of responses that were provided to me and I gained quite a bit of insight from all of the posts. I do have a question with the uttercold feat. In the build that was provided it doesn't have energy substitution cold, am I missing something? Also I definitely won't be ignoring undead. I just don't want to bog things down. :) Undead are definitely a big part of the class and I most definitely want to make use of them. I also appreciate the advice of bypassing/circumventing/dealing with spell resistance. :)

[OldTrees1]

Greater teleport + abduction.

Neat. Pretty cheap for 6HD.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Versatile Spellcaster in Races of the Dragon, it allows you to spend two spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, and may even give you early access to the next higher level of spells. Combine it with Heighten Spell and it definitely gives you early access to the next higher level of Dread Necromancer spells. This also allows your Advanced Learning spells to be one level higher, and makes reserve feats available earlier and their effect stronger.

See if you can use Eclectic Learning (Warmage entry in PH2) to get Magic Circle Against [Alignment], since DN gets Planar Binding but no way to actually use it.

Take Arcane Disciple in Complete Divine for the Evil domain, which gets you Desecrate, among others. Also pick up Fell Energy Spell in Dragon Compendium, which makes a spell's numerical bonuses granted to undead increased by +2, so Fell Energy Desecrate gives +3 hp per HD, and if there's an evil altar present it doubles to +6. Alternatively, get a Ring of Desecration (https://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) if you can't use Fell Energy Spell.

Consider the Corpsecrafter line of feats in Libris Mortis if you plan on making lots of undead. Keep in mind that at 8th level the number of undead you can control becomes dependent on your class level instead of your caster level, so multiclassing or taking prestige classes will not continue advancing this.

Consider Fell Drain and/or Fell Frighten, and check out the Fear Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809). Kelgore's Grave Mist is a decent spell to use with one or both of those feats.


Get the Ghostly Visage familiar, it's by far one of the best class features that exists in the game. The ghostly visage can always possess your character, giving you immunity to mind-affecting effects like an undead creature, with no drawbacks. In combat it can manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze attack (which can affect party members, so be careful). The ghostly visage can spend its action to focus its gaze attack on an opponent to affect them with it again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks), even if they've already made the save that round. Its gaze DC is always 13 + 1/2 your character level, unless it increases is Cha bonus, but see if you can swap its Iron Will feat for Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm).


Once you get 7th level spells you should get a Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell to use with Destruction. Since the spell deals hp damage, the secondary targets don't get a reduced saving throw DC.

[Deophaun]

The ghostly visage can spend its action to focus its gaze attack on an opponent to affect them with it again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks), even if they've already made the save that round. Its gaze DC is always 13 + 1/2 your character level, unless it increases is Cha bonus, but see if you can swap its Iron Will feat for Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) Lifesense (LM, pg 28).
When you have the opportunity to gain a sense that tells Darkstalker to go sit in the corner, you take it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

When you have the opportunity to gain a sense that tells Darkstalker to go sit in the corner, you take it.

Good point - usually DN build advice includes Necropolitan, so you can take that feat yourself. Definitely go this route if you can say your creator was also a DN 8+ with one level of Wizard for Enhanced Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants), the Corpsecrafter line of feats, and a Fell Energy Desecrate with an evil altar so you'll get +12 hp/level, +4 Str and Dex, +4 initiative, +10 ft. movement, +2 natural armor, +4 turn resistance, and +1d6 cold damage on natural weapon attacks.

[ATHATH]

Check out the Mother Cyst and Cerebrosis feats; they both add spells to your list (and you can gain Cerebrosis without spending a feat slot if you sacrifice 3,000 or so GP and a point of CON).

If you don't want to use your rebuke attempts to control undead, consider using them to power devotion feats and/or Divine Metamagic (if you can get at least one divine spell (even as an SLA), you can take Alternative Source spell to let you cast your arcane spells as divine spells).

Take the Necropolitan template.

If you're not married to the idea of taking Dread Necromancer all the way to level 20, a 1-level dip (or a two-level one, if you want to delay your Advanced Learning feature) into Sandshaper (to get a TON of extra spells (seriously, take a look at the list)) might be nice. Fiendblooded is also pretty nice.

If you take the Arcane Preparation feat (and are Neutral), you can prepare and cast Sanctified and Corrupt spells. Mmm, Lahm's Finger Darts and Create Lantern Archon...

Say, don't you want Magic Circle Against Evil to expand your Planar Binding options?

"Magic Circle against Evil (Su): A magic circle against evil effect always surrounds an archon (caster level equals the archon’s Hit Dice). (The defensive benefits from the circle are not included in an archon’s statistics block.)"

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Because I'm thinking about ripping out the pure and Good parts of your soul and sacrificing them to summon and bind fiends.

[Bonzai]

I was playing a Necromancer in my last campaign. Sadly it ended too soon. My build focused on meta magic reducers mostly. One fun trick I was working towards was getting a Flame Skull as a minion. They have the ability to regenerate within hours of being destroyed. I wanted to abuse this by spell stitching it with the Death throws and Un-living weapon spells. Combined with the destruction retrobution feat you get a kamakazi unit that will blow up for 4d6 negative energy, reflex for half, 2d6 untyped damage, and 4d8 untyped damage. Plus the skulls normal spell like abilities and whatever else you stick into it.

[Rhyltran]

So I took a little bit of everyone's advice. I really liked the Pale Master idea and I like the fluff for my character so I think I'm going to go with that. Plus while I don't want an army of undead I do like the idea of having several large HD of undead. Not to mention the suggestion of having my own little "base of operations" or since I'm playing a Drow my own temple guarded by my extra undead. Reading the necromancer guide it also suggested getting an undead bard cohort which would be ideal since leadership and undead leadership aren't allowed. That being said.. this is what I have now.

For feats I've decided to use:

Feats:
Flaw - Tomb Tainted Soul
Flaw - Corpsecrafter
Fell Animate
Fell Drain
Destructive Retribution
Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion)
Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy)
Mother Cyst
Arcane Mastery

The whole turning my undead into explosive bombs when they die is nice. Provides more use out of them and I like the idea of combining certain spells to synergize even more with this if I desire. I also took to heart your suggestions about fell drain and fell animate alongside Kelgore's Grave Mist. Skill focus to get into Pale Master and the meta magic focus because when combined with slaymate I can reduce the metamagic cost of my spells even more.

I LOVE Mother Cyst! This blew me away. The amount of things this feat gets me is absolutely incredible. So thank you ATHATH for this suggestion. I went with Arcane Mastery as per Max's suggestion in order to get a take 10 against SR. In a campaign with Drow which have 11 SR + Their class level I found this very useful. I know there's ways around SR but this opens up a lot more options imo. I decided to go with Tomb Tainted Soul because Necropolitan early on won't be an option. Not to mention being true undead could be a huge detriment to me given the setting. This still provides me with the healing I want. I unfortunately won't be getting nimble bones as I just don't have enough room for it. Plus I think I can manage without the extra initiative to my undead or the 10 foot movement speed.

Other toys I plan to get are via suggestions:

Road of Undead Mastery
Greater Metamagic Rod of Chain Spell
Slaymate
Nightsticks
Ghostly Visage Familiar

Key Spells I want to look at:

Spectral Hand and Unliving Weapon.

Am I missing anything? I unfortunately if going Dread Necromancer 10/Palemaster 10 will not be able to get Animate Dread Warrior :( but I think that's okay if I can create my own Undead Cohort.

So far in my own opinion this character is turning out quite nicely. What I am at a loss about is ability scores. What should my stats be? I'm thinking an array of..

8
10
12
16
8
18

How does that look?

[Deophaun]

I unfortunately if going Dread Necromancer 10/Palemaster 10 will not be able to get Animate Dread Warrior
Technically, you can still use the spell research rules to expand your spell list. Advanced Learning even states that you are getting those spells because of research you're doing on the side, which really means that your class feature is just page 198 in the DMG, pre-paid and pre-approved. If you want more, you have to go through the regular channels, but you are not precluded from doing so.

[Rhyltran]

Technically, you can still use the spell research rules to expand your spell list. Advanced Learning even states that you are getting those spells because of research you're doing on the side, which really means that your class feature is just page 198 in the DMG, pre-paid and pre-approved. If you want more, you have to go through the regular channels, but you are not precluded from doing so.

Alright, that's cool. :) My DM will take no issue with that so that works excellently.

[OldTrees1]

Am I missing anything? I unfortunately if going Dread Necromancer 10/Palemaster 10 will not be able to get Animate Dread Warrior :( but I think that's okay if I can create my own Undead Cohort.


Dread Necromancer 7 / Palemaster 5 / Dread Necromancer +1 / Palemaster +5 gives you your final Advanced Learning at spellcasting level 12 which is high enoguh to pick Animate Dread Warrior.

Although Dread Necromancer 6 / Palemaster 5 / Dread Necromancer +2 / Palemaster +5 would get you to Animate Dead 1/day sooner.

[ATHATH]

Any particular reason that you didn't sacrifice a point of CON (and a small amount of GP) for Cerebrosis?

And you're welcome, I'm glad to have been of help to you.

[Rhyltran]

Any particular reason that you didn't sacrifice a point of CON (and a small amount of GP) for Cerebrosis?

And you're welcome, I'm glad to have been of help to you.

Oh, right. I meant to ask about that. Googling it online I can't find a spell list for Cerebrosis. Do you know of a place where I can find it? I found the write up for it but it didn't contain a spell list.

[ATHATH]

Oh, right. I meant to ask about that. Googling it online I can't find a spell list for Cerebrosis. Do you know of a place where I can find it? I found the write up for it but it didn't contain a spell list.
It's in Dragon Magazine #330.

[Rhyltran]

It's in Dragon Magazine #330.

Amazing! I love it. Thank you. :)