O-Chul Theory (Spoilers?)

[Adoniis]

I don't know if this would count as a spoiler, but I'll say it is anyways.

OK I have a theory about where Giant may be heading with O-Chul. Rich seems to like to toss twists out there.

Everyone was talking about Miko going Blackguard for the longest time. Well, that is obviously very wrong. My theory is O-Chul is going to go Blackguard! Now correct me if I'm wrong, but he seems to have already met a few of the requirements. All he has to do now is fall right? I mean seriously, after all he's just been through just to be tossed aside like that by Belkar.... I see a new threat coming.

So, how right/wrong am I?

[Oberon]

Wrong. But that's my opinion.

It's more likely for O'chul to be killed then raised by team evil than it is for him to fall. I'm not saying that that's likely either, I'm just saying MORE likely.

I do think Xykon will have some choice woprds for him when he finds MitD though.

:xykon: "Hey! its that guy I froze! How you been doin' pal?(insert some pun along the lines of the "that raise you wanted" joke, cept about paralyzing. I'm not clever enough to think of one just now tho')."

[factotum]

So where has O-Chul had "peaceful contact with an evil outsider"? Even if the MitD is an outsider, it hardly counts as peaceful contact if you're paralysed and unable to act for the entire duration!

[the_tick_rules]

well said factotum.

[jamroar]

So where has O-Chul had "peaceful contact with an evil outsider"? Even if the MitD is an outsider, it hardly counts as peaceful contact if you're paralysed and unable to act for the entire duration!

Well, if O-Chul gets forcibly deathknightified or turned into some kind of free-willed undead, he automatically falls for being an evil creature, in addition to getting a twisted new perspective on the world. Redcloak can then summon the required outsider to invest him any time he feels like trading in those ex-paladin levels. However, I think Team Xykon has far too many members already at this point. They might just interrogate him, kill him, or torture him by leaving him paralyzed at the hands of the MitD.

Nale could also be a candidate for blackguard, seeing how the prestige classes are starting to appear. He likely already meets the requirements, and it fits his idiom perfectly as a evil sneaky rat-bastard fighter. Furthermore, it also keeps with his evil opposite theme ("My brother took levels in some weird homebrewed prestige class, so I'll take levels in a published 100% official DMG one!")

[Winterwind]

Since the latest comic (477) I see a distinct possibility that, at some point, O-Chul is going to work against the Order of the Stick. Reason: for all purposes, he was betrayed and abandoned by Belkar, and might well come to consider the entire OotS as traitors by extension.

If this should happen, there would be two ways to realise this: either O-Chul remains Good, but believes the OotS to be Evil (sort of a repetition of what we had with Miko), therefore comes in at some point (after escaping somehow from Team Evil) and persuades some group the OotS might encounter and which is unsure of the OotS alignment to turn against the OotS; or he wishes for vengeance and turns to the evil side.

[Holammer]

I don't know if anyone can become a fallen paladin/death knight against his/her own will or how the mechanics would work there. But I considered the possibility that something like that might happen to O-Chul for awhile. Belkar tossing him back kinda confirmed it.
Either way, when TMitD introduces "Mr. Stiffly" to Redcloak and Xykon, the results will be epic whatever happens.

[basilisk 89]

I hate Belkar for what he did to O-Chul because paladins are awesom

EDIT: And I can't see O-Chul becoming evil short of being rezzed by Tsukiko.

[Lady_Orc]

I hate Belkar for what he did to O-Chul because paladins are awesom

EDIT: And I can't see O-Chul becoming evil short of being rezzed by Tsukiko.


I love Belkar for what he did to O-Chul because paladins annoy me. However, I don't think he'll turn evil. Perhaps he could end up as Xykon's coffee table instead?

[Joracy]

Well he may turn evil because he really enjoyed his time with MITD...Or maybe he will fall for unnatural acts of wizardy...Hmmmm :smallconfused: I do see where the OP is going though, It would be a kick in the face after miko "almost" got turned into undead for the straight pally to go blackguard :P

[Adoniis]

Well he may turn evil because he really enjoyed his time with MITD...Or maybe he will fall for unnatural acts of wizardy...Hmmmm :smallconfused: I do see where the OP is going though, It would be a kick in the face after miko "almost" got turned into undead for the straight pally to go blackguard :P

Glad you get it. :smallcool:

I'm not saying it's going to happen, just saying it's pointing in that direction to me. As for where he had friendly contact. MitD has been FAR nicer to him then almost everyone else, and after Belkars stunt.... come on, it's not a far stretch to assume O-Chul may have had enough.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Well, I've personally thought Hinjo would make a great Blackguard. I think it could work for three reasons.

1. It would be ironic with him being the "good" paladin. He's a little too "squeaky clean" right now.
2. We haven't had a Blackguard in the comic yet.
3. It would open the door for Lien to have a bigger role.

I know many people will disagree with me, but it's just my personal opinion.

[Callista]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really hoping O-Chul pulls through this without turning evil. I nearly cried when Miko fell--and that doesn't happen to me often, even with the saddest works of fiction. I don't want to see it happen to another paladin.

O-Chul seems to accept the constant indignities he seems to be cursed with. He's more flexible than most paladins in that way--it seems they, especially in this pseudo-Eastern setting, care even more about honor than Western-style paladins might. Whether that acceptance is enough to get him through this, as well as whatever Xykon's got planned, is another question... but I hope so. I'd like to see O-Chul keep his stoicism.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Yeah, I think O-Chul should come out ok. The poor guy deserves it. :smallfrown: I hope this isn't the last we see of him.

[basilisk 89]

Well, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm really hoping O-Chul pulls through this without turning evil. I nearly cried when Miko fell--and that doesn't happen to me often, even with the saddest works of fiction. I don't want to see it happen to another paladin.

O-Chul seems to accept the constant indignities he seems to be cursed with. He's more flexible than most paladins in that way--it seems they, especially in this pseudo-Eastern setting, care even more about honor than Western-style paladins might. Whether that acceptance is enough to get him through this, as well as whatever Xykon's got planned, is another question... but I hope so. I'd like to see O-Chul keep his stoicism.

I agree 100% with everything you just said, except I cried a roar of rage, not a tear of sadness, when Miko fell. Namely because she killed the wacky old dude with the cat.

[Chronos]

May I remind everyone that Blackguard requires ranks in Hide? It's an odd requirement for a class geared towards fallen paladins, but it's right there in the book. Miko could plausibly have met the requirement, thanks to her monk levels, but for a pure paladin, it would be a very suboptimal skill choice. It's cross-class, the heavy armor typical of a paladin puts a hefty penalty on it, and sneaking around doesn't fit most paladins' style of honor. Paladins don't get enough skill points to waste them on things like that. So even in the unlikely event that O-Chul or Hinjo falls (but really, we've been there, done that), don't expect either of them to be eligible for Blackguard.

Belkar or Nale might go blackguard, if the Giant wants to introduce the class somewhere (and Nale of all characters has definitely had friendly contact with an evil outsider). They just wouldn't get any of the extra special abilities for being fallen paladins.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

May I remind everyone that Blackguard requires ranks in Hide?

I didn't know that. I thought any fallen paladin who made a deal with some kind of demon could become Blackguard.




Belkar or Nale might go blackguard, if the Giant wants to introduce the class somewhere (and Nale of all characters has definitely had friendly contact with an evil outsider). They just wouldn't get any of the extra special abilities for being fallen paladins.

But I thought only a fallen paladin could become Blackguard. And I don't think either Nale or Belkar are paladin material, even temporarily.

Oh well, I guess we won't be seeing any Blackguards in the comic, then. But I still think Hinjo is too squeaky clean. He hasn't even done anything Neutral.

[MaxKaladin]

May I remind everyone that Blackguard requires ranks in Hide? It's an odd requirement for a class geared towards fallen paladins, but it's right there in the book. Miko could plausibly have met the requirement, thanks to her monk levels, but for a pure paladin, it would be a very suboptimal skill choice. It's cross-class, the heavy armor typical of a paladin puts a hefty penalty on it, and sneaking around doesn't fit most paladins' style of honor. Paladins don't get enough skill points to waste them on things like that. So even in the unlikely event that O-Chul or Hinjo falls (but really, we've been there, done that), don't expect either of them to be eligible for Blackguard.We really don't know anything about O-Chul's background though. For all we know, he grew up on the streets and has a couple of levels of rogue complete with ranks in hide.

[Voidhawk]

O-Chul probably won't go fully evil, but he will definatly have a large grudge against OotS in general and Belkar in particular.
This to me points to him joining the Linear Guild if he does go evil-ish, which i think would be fantastic!

[factotum]

O-Chul probably won't go fully evil, but he will definatly have a large grudge against OotS in general and Belkar in particular.


Firstly, why would he have a grudge against OotS in general? What have they ever done to hurt him? Belkar, yes, he might have a grudge against him, but I don't see the connection with the rest of them.

Secondly, if he goes even PARTLY evil, he Falls, and I think one Fallen paladin is quite enough to be going along with.

[Chronos]

But I thought only a fallen paladin could become Blackguard.Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm). A blackguard needs to be evil, he needs a certain base attack bonus, a couple of skills, a few feats, and the "evil outsider" thing. Anyone who meets those requirements can become a blackguard, and it's likely (or at least plausible) that Belkar and Nale both do. All blackguards get certain abilities, but if a blackguard also happens to be a fallen paladin, he or she gets a bunch more abilities, depending levels in ex-paladin.

[fangthane]

O-Chul's fate is to become Xykon's cloak rack. :smallbiggrin:

I wonder just how far Rich is going to take the "permanent paralysis" angle in terms of real-world biological requirements, to be honest. He might die of thirst in a few days, or of hunger in a couple of weeks. He might go insane due to an inability to sleep in about 3-4 days. He might soil himself or experience toxic effects as a result of being unable to do so. All things considered, there are a number of potentially funny aspects of lich-caused paralysis if they're addressed the right way.

[PaladinFreak]

Oh God! I don't even want to think about the constipation O'Chul is going to have if this keeps up.

[David Argall]

My guess is that O-Chul can survive 'forever' while paralyzed. He can be killed very easily at any time, but most of his systems just shut down and require very little to come back on track. There has to be some point at which he would die, but in the comic at least, he can survive without problem as long as the jokes about him being paralyzed continue to be funny. Only then will he recover some way, probably with a good deal of complaints and jokes about those complaints ["Thank the gods you released me. Now quick, where's the bathroom?"], but nothing in the way of permanent damage.

[Oberon]

Since the latest comic (477) I see a distinct possibility that, at some point, O-Chul is going to work against the Order of the Stick. Reason: for all purposes, he was betrayed and abandoned by Belkar, and might well come to consider the entire OotS as traitors by extension.


In all fairness, the OOTs WERE trying to save him at that point, and Belkar only abandoned him when things started to get ugly. He'll probably get mad at Belkar for leaving him behind and for the things he said, but the fact that they were trying to rescue him in the first place should be enough for him to realize that they meant him no (direct) harm. Thus, I conclude that he will probably not work against the OOTS unless some other strange new development comes along.

[draca]

I love Belkar for what he did to O-Chul because paladins annoy me. However, I don't think he'll turn evil. Perhaps he could end up as Xykon's coffee table instead?

Redcloak needs to shoot a spare heal at Xykon's new coffee table soon. He's starting to look more red then tan.

EDIT: oh, and I can’t see O-Chul turning against the OoTS as long as Hinjo is on their side. Not that he can’t think for himself, but he’s displayed much more aptitude for listening to reason then Miko, and Hinjo would certainly intervene.

[teratorn]

EDIT: oh, and I can’t see O-Chul turning against the OoTS as long as Hinjo is on their side. Not that he can’t think for himself, but he’s displayed much more aptitude for listening to reason then Miko, and Hinjo would certainly intervene.

Miko accepted the crown explanation, and even the "evil twin did it". She was a reasonable listener. She had her faults, but it was Belkar who drove her crazy. O-Chul now knows that Belkar ranks high in the evilometer and will start making his own crazy theories.

But good days approach for the Belkster. Belkar will be inside a boat, hence outside the city. Goodbye MoJ, hello slaughtering.

[mostlyharmful]

May I run through Belkars thought process at the moment he dropped O-Chul "It's you or It's me AND you on account of I can't carry both of us out of this and you sure aren't running on your own, in fact I'm not even sure I can get out of this, crap I can't say that it'd ruin my rep, Ok, what can I say that'd still make me look Hardass while still getting across to O-Chul that I don't really want to do this thing that I must do in this situation to salvage the best that can be" ........ here's voting for closet tactical sense in the worlds anriest shortman:smallwink:

[Nero24200]

May I remind everyone that Blackguard requires ranks in Hide? It's an odd requirement for a class geared towards fallen paladins

They're not. Fallen Paladins make the -best- blackguards, but you don't have to be one. It even says in the entry that most blackguards are usally fighters or rogues.

I can see O-chul becomming a Death Knight though, since they automaticcly gain the fallen paladin bonus's listed in the Blackguard entry, and it won't require O-Chul's consent.

[jamroar]

They're not. Fallen Paladins make the -best- blackguards,

Only in a fluff sense for the evil outsider concerned. The "signing perks" for keeping otherwise worthless ex-paladin levels around and/or instantly trading them in one-to-one for Blackguard levels is to keep the class balanced in power with other characters of its level. It allows ex-paladins to do hair-trigger "Darth Vader" conversions without becoming a weak fighter-without-bonus-feats x/Blackguard 1.

[Gez]

All blackguards get certain abilities, but if a blackguard also happens to be a fallen paladin, he or she gets a bunch more abilities, depending levels in ex-paladin.

And that's only to compensate for the abilities they lost when they became ex-paladins, which is the mechanical reason why these features are restricted to fallen paladins.

That said, I think in 2e, before there were actual prestige classes, blackguards were for paladins only.

[Aquillion]

Wasn't it Anti-Paladin or something back then? Not as catchy a name.

[Nightgaunt]

What I'm really bummed about is O-Chul is the only person who knows what a Tool Miko really was, and how Xykon could have been destroyed if she hadn't done what she did. O-Chul is the only good guy who knows what happened... I was waiting for what would happen when he finally met up with Team Good again.:smallfrown:

He'll be a coat-rack forever now...

:Edit:After second anti-paladin reference:

There was no anti-paladin or blackguard in 2ndEdition. In fact the Complete Paladins Handbooks (one of the finest books for the 2nd edition line and it should be required reading for anyone who wants to play a paladin in any edition) states



Though DMs may experiment with any type of character they like, we discourage the use of anti-paladins. Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of evil have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.

[jamroar]

What I'm really bummed about is O-Chul is the only person who knows what a Tool Miko really was, and how Xykon could have been destroyed if she hadn't done what she did. O-Chul is the only good guy who knows what happened... I was waiting for what would happen when he finally met up with Team Good again.:smallfrown:

He'll be a coat-rack forever now...

More importantly, he's the only living being on the side of Good who knows what Xykon's phylactery is, having overheard the exchange between Xykon and Soon. Miko was there, but she was too absorbed in her own little world to pay attention to Soon, plus she's dead now. Aside from a revelation from Soon via Eugene or Roy from beyond, or Redcloak telling the heroes about it himself, it may be difficult for the OOTS to find this piece of info out now.

[Aquillion]

There was no anti-paladin or blackguard in 2ndEdition. In fact the Complete Paladins Handbooks (one of the finest books for the 2nd edition line and it should be required reading for anyone who wants to play a paladin in any edition) states
Though DMs may experiment with any type of character they like, we discourage the use of anti-paladins. Good and evil are not merely mirror images of each other. Just as the forces of evil have their unique champions, the paladin is intended as a unique champion of good. The paladin originates from a tradition of dynamic balance, in which the forces of good are few and elite and in which forces of evil are numerous and of lesser quality. Allowing anti-paladins blurs this basic relationship.That makes a lot of sense to me (I never liked the different-alignment paladins--who the heck would be a Paladin of Tyranny?), but I never saw anti-paladins as being the morally evil equivalents of Paladins in that sense. Rather, I see them as twisted mockeries of paladins created by the forces of evil... sort of like Death Knights, they exist as a 'response' to paladins, not as an equivalent. (For that reason, I'd also assume there are many, many fewer anti-paladins than paladins, since anti-paladins don't really exist as a structure in their own right.)