Seeking input: weighing unusual combat styles for a bard - commonplace guns

[Minwaabi]

Hey Playground,

I'm going to be playing a bard in an upcoming campaign, and I've come up with some ideas for how I want him to play out, but I'm wondering about the general effectiveness of these ideas and and tips and tricks to make them work better. First off, it will be a homebrew nautically themed campaign starting at level 4 and ending somewhere around level 15. We have been told to expect humans and humanoids to make up a fair percentage of combatants over the entire duration of the campaign. We are using ship combat from Skulls and Shackles. We have a cleric, a rogue, a hunter, and a swashbuckler,and me. We are also using the commonplace guns rules.

I'm the only arcane caster, I want to be the party face, and I want to focus on being a very charismatic, agile buffer, debuffer. I'm thinking between a kitsune (if its allowed), or a cat folk with these stats: 12, 16, 12, 12, 10, 18. Otherwise I might go human with these stats: 11, 16, 12, 12, 8, 18. But I'd rather not play a human (since I always do that), and those stats are decidedly worse (but maybe there's a really good reason to do so).

The character would be mostly driven by an insatiable curiosity and a desire to collect and share stories, and songs, and random bits of lore etc as he travels from port to port.

Combat ideas (My character will focus on spells, buffs, debuffs (maybe dazzling display?), and talking his way out of problems, but sometimes that doesn't work):

Archer Bard - I know this is probably the strongest mechanically speaking, but I played a ranger last campaign and I want something different. I'm only listing this option so folks know I've already ruled it out.

Rapier Bard - Specifically focused on crit fishing. But I don't even get these feats until 11th level right? I've never played a melee character and I've never played a crit fisher so this could be interesting. However how effective would this be really? How dangerous would this be (ie survivability for my character)?

Gunslinger Bard - I would dip a level of Gunslinger(Mysterious stranger). Or take the two feats: gunsmith/exotic weapon prof:firearms. I like the idea of a bard who would prefer to stay out of combat, but when things go bad he just pulls out his pistol and shoots the bad guys. "I said I didn't want to fight. Why didn't you listen?"

The Pacifist - Use nets and/or a whip whenever fighting humanoids (which should be about half our enemies). He might even be opposed to the taking of humanoid life. (Just think of all the great stories and knowledge lost!) As such, he'd try to inflict only non-lethal damage by using his whip/nets/dazzling display/words to try to get his enemies to surrender or back down by tripping, disarming, entangling, or intimidating them. When fighting monsters I'd fall back on either a light crossbow or one of the other two options above. But would this strategy even work at all? CMD seems hard to beat. "Why don't you just stay down, before one of my more violent friends puts you down ... permanently ..."

Any thoughts on these three combat styles? How well would they work? How could they be made better? Any combinations that could work well?

[EvulOne]

As the only arcane spellcaster, you need to live. I'd suggest staying away from melee combat. The archer build while may be similar to your previous Ranger, it can survive better playing that tactic. I do like the idea of your passive build. Nets and tripping with whips can go hand in hand with 'debuff' spell support for the melee types of your party. Plus RPwise it's pretty cool.

It would also depend on how your DM runs things. Is he/she willing to allow your negotiations and bluffs to work in combat?

[Geddy2112]

Between starting a bardic performance and casting a buff spell, your 1st and 2nd(before level 7) turns will not involve any form of martial combat. Once you can start performing as a move action at level 7, your opener will be perform+spell. Even once you can start a performance as a swift action, you will still be casting on your first turn as well, just giving you a move action. Particularly at higher levels, your 2nd and possibly 3rd turn of the combat will be spellslinging.

So, what to do with the rest?

I think you should not go the gunslinger route-you won't deal all that much damage and your party has plenty of damage dealing already. It also means a dip and less spells/performance, which is your main shtick.

There is no reason NOT to have a ranged weapon, although I agree you don't need to be an archer bard. With a positive strength modifier, you can carry a compound shortbow. Before level 8, you can use a light crossbow as well, but once you get 2 or more attacks from a full round attack swap to the short bow. There is also no reason you can't carry a rapier either; you want some melee weapon just in case and you might as well carry one of the best you are proficient with. I would not spend any serious coin on these-masterwork or +1 enchanted at the very most. At higher levels, just scavenge anything you are proficient in that the group does not want. A +1 longsword, flaming shortbow, or whatever you can use and nobody needs or wants is just fine. Don't invest your gold here, or even bother with combat feats, but keep weapons on you for the off chance you need them.

I like the whip trip/disarm option-keep in mind almost every enemy you go against will be in armor and won't take any damage from the whip, so don't use it for that. Dazzling display is good, but you can just take the spell blistering invective and do dazzling display plus fire damage. Much better IMO.

[Minwaabi]

What about using wands? How viable would that be? (For filling in the times when I'm not casting spells, starting performances). What would be good wands? Is that even a good idea?

[Kurald Galain]

Between starting a bardic performance and casting a buff spell, your 1st and 2nd(before level 7) turns will not involve any form of martial combat. Once you can start performing as a move action at level 7, your opener will be perform+spell.

Yes, however a good combo with this is wielding a reach weapon and using your opportunity attacks to trip incoming enemies.

[Albertus Magus]

I suggest a Duettist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/duettist-bard-archetype/) Sound Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/sound-striker/) Bard.

At level 5, take Improved Familiar to get an Small Aether Elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-aether/aether-elemental-small/), which is an EXCELLENT combat ally - it can telekinetically grapple spellcasters, it can fling enemies and allies across the battlefield, it benefits from constant improved invisibility, so its survival chances are high...

..oh, and it can also use Wordstrike/Weird Words to attack.

[weckar]

Remind me; can a PF bard maintain a performance while casting a (V) spell? I know the 3.5 can't by default.

[Minwaabi]

Remind me; can a PF bard maintain a performance while casting a (V) spell? I know the 3.5 can't by default.

Yes they can.


I suggest a Duettist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/duettist-bard-archetype/) Sound Striker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/sound-striker/) Bard.

At level 5, take Improved Familiar to get an Small Aether Elemental (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/elemental/elemental-aether/aether-elemental-small/), which is an EXCELLENT combat ally - it can telekinetically grapple spellcasters, it can fling enemies and allies across the battlefield, it benefits from constant improved invisibility, so its survival chances are high...

..oh, and it can also use Wordstrike/Weird Words to attack.

This is a very interesting idea. I may have to think about it a bit. However, it seems like it detracts somewhat from the buffer/debuffer style I was shooting for. I have to stop my (performance based) buffs/debuffs to attack (at least until lvl 14 when we'll be almost done).


Yes, however a good combo with this is wielding a reach weapon and using your opportunity attacks to trip incoming enemies.

Are you referring to the whip idea or using something else? I don't think whips threaten AoO.



I think you should not go the gunslinger route-you won't deal all that much damage and your party has plenty of damage dealing already. It also means a dip and less spells/performance, which is your main shtick.

There is no reason NOT to have a ranged weapon, although I agree you don't need to be an archer bard. With a positive strength modifier, you can carry a compound shortbow. Before level 8, you can use a light crossbow as well, but once you get 2 or more attacks from a full round attack swap to the short bow. There is also no reason you can't carry a rapier either; you want some melee weapon just in case and you might as well carry one of the best you are proficient with. I would not spend any serious coin on these-masterwork or +1 enchanted at the very most. At higher levels, just scavenge anything you are proficient in that the group does not want. A +1 longsword, flaming shortbow, or whatever you can use and nobody needs or wants is just fine. Don't invest your gold here, or even bother with combat feats, but keep weapons on you for the off chance you need them.

I like the whip trip/disarm option-keep in mind almost every enemy you go against will be in armor and won't take any damage from the whip, so don't use it for that. Dazzling display is good, but you can just take the spell blistering invective and do dazzling display plus fire damage. Much better IMO.

Thanks, that all seems like great advice. I was thinking the same thing on the gunslinger idea, but I wanted to check my math. What would be good ideas for feat choices here?


As the only arcane spellcaster, you need to live. I'd suggest staying away from melee combat. The archer build while may be similar to your previous Ranger, it can survive better playing that tactic. I do like the idea of your passive build. Nets and tripping with whips can go hand in hand with 'debuff' spell support for the melee types of your party. Plus RPwise it's pretty cool.


+@Geddy2112 & @Kurald Galain: I really like the whip/tripping build idea, too. How can I make that better or do I just hope for the best?

[Kurald Galain]

Are you referring to the whip idea or using something else? I don't think whips threaten AoO.
As you say, whips don't threaten (except with a heavy feat investment) so I suggest using any reach weapon that's not a whip - for example, a longspear. A nice perk of reach weapons is that you will automatically not provoke when tripping normal-sized enemies (due to being out of reach).

An interesting dip is one level of cleric, with anything that has the plant domain (so you can enlarge yourself as a swift action, a couple rounds per day). This gives a huge bonus to reach.

[Geddy2112]

I second Kurald's suggestion of a longspear/combat reflexes build. If you go this route, you want to take the flagbearer feat and put it on your spear. You eventually will want the banner of ancient kings for this build.

Even without improved trip or disarm, you won't provoke doing so from a distance with a whip. As a bard, you won't be great at either(3/4th BAB, and not super high strength) but it is something you can do. Improved and greater trip require combat expertise and 13 int(boo) but you can take the dirty fighting feat, which is much better and counts as combat expertise and 13 int for feat prerequisites.

One of the best feats you can take as a bard is lingering performance. It effectively turns every round of bardic performance into three, and once you hit level 7 and can start performing as a move action, it makes performance cycling very effective. Once you can do it as a swift action it is bonkers good, but even as a standard you can start it 1st round, and then end it as a free action and get 2 free rounds, then start your performance again on the 4th round of combat. Never take extra performance;with lingering you should never run out of performance a day.

If you want to boost the ability of a whip build, and have a rapier as a backup, consider weapon finesse. You can use your dex over strength for trip and disarm rolls with the whip, as well as attacks with the rapier. Not the best feat, but it makes your backup combat options viable.

As the only arcane caster, and with your performance boosting the party, going first is important. Improved initiative is never a bad feat, but very important for you.

Although not as good as lingering performance, your campaign will likely put you inside taverns/ships/etc, and if you are going to use performances with DC's(suggestion, fascinate) consider harmonic sage to increase the DC by 1. Requires 5 ranks in knowledge:engineering which kind of sucks.

As you mentioned, you can always go the dazzling display route, including some of the higher up feats in that tree.

As far as wands, you don't really want to use them in combat, at least not for spells that have a DC because it will probably be too low. A wand of cure light wounds is better than knowing the spell for you. A wand of faerie fire is incredibly good for negating invisible enemies/concealment(no save) but it is a druid only spell so needs a UMD check. You can take glitterdust as a 2nd level spell if you want a mass negate invisibility. Pick other utility 1st and 2nd level spells for wands like unseen servant, comp. languages, etc. Your best wand spells are generally out of combat spells, but if you nab wands from other lists you might find something useful.

[Minwaabi]

I second Kurald's suggestion of a longspear/combat reflexes build. If you go this route, you want to take the flagbearer feat and put it on your spear. You eventually will want the banner of ancient kings for this build.


Longspear is not a trip weapon right? So I can still fail by 10 or more and knock myself down, right? How concerned should I be about that? I can probably manage a +5 at level 4 for attack using str (and a masterwork item), but that flagbearer/banner of the kings stuff looks nice too.

[Geddy2112]

Longspear is not a trip weapon right? So I can still fail by 10 or more and knock myself down, right? How concerned should I be about that? I can probably manage a +5 at level 4 for attack using str (and a masterwork item), but that flagbearer/banner of the kings stuff looks nice too.

If you go the longspear route, you won't be tripping so much as just making attacks of opportunity and attacks from the safety of reach if need be. You can always carry the spear in your offhand and draw the whip if you want to make trip attacks.

Against anything that is not a humanoid(particularly with a lot of legs) failing a trip by more than 10 is a real possibility.

[Kurald Galain]

Longspear is not a trip weapon right? So I can still fail by 10 or more and knock myself down, right? How concerned should I be about that?

Not very concerned.

You can boost your tripping with traits and items, and depending on your race there may be other weapons available to you that do have the trip property. Otherwise, just avoid tripping quadrupeds and spiders and you'll be good.

[Minwaabi]

We have a week before we start our first session and I found out we are in a setting with "commonplace guns". How would having the campaign be set in a world with commonplace guns affect folks advice? Does that change anything?


Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

How much should this change how I think about defenses?

[Geddy2112]

For commonplace guns, not every single enemy will have them so armor will still matter somewhat. You have a decent dex so you are not a total sitting duck. Overall you will still be performing and casting in the opening rounds. If nobody is near you, you can drop prone for a +4 to AC. If you are really worried, you can learn the spell bullet ward as a 2nd level spell.

Guns don't take a penalty from being prone so tripping won't help as much, unless your melee characters are near the tripped gunfighter in which case tripping is a very good idea.

[Psyren]

If guns are commonplace and you're looking for something fresh, I'd consider being a Juggler Bard who dual-wields pistols. Juggler gives you additional virtual "hands" by tossing your weapons around that allow you to keep reloading them with your hands full (letting you full-attack) and even perform somatic components for your spells.