Optimize this feat #22 Pain Mastery from Savage Species

[daremetoidareyo]

I Love Feats. They are little alterations to the rules and they interface with class features in some really fun and strange ways. Sometimes their utility is circumspect and sometimes they just stink. I'm looking at you Battle Dance. However, there is just something really satisfying about the interplay of feats and rules to produce illogical and unintended effects.

What is this?
So this is the "Optimize this feat" discussion, wherein we work together to plumb the clever and amazing uses for feats in ways the designers could have only dreamt of. Arbitrary credit seems to be important to sway people's incentives, so I have devised the following system to award credit to people who help explore the possibilities of how to use a feat. I'm developing this pseudo-contest on the fly, so rules are subject to change.


All participants in the optimization endeavor post directly into the thread. They may post as many times as they want, just like any thread where you volunteer your ideas. After a week or so, the thread will be evaluated and participants will be assigned a score. That score represents how helpful or novel the poster was in their analysis of a feat's uses, abuses, interactions, and limitations. The rubric by which points are assigned to posters is developed below. The poster's who are most helpful will be announced after a week, and have their name highlighted in bold and in a font color other than black! The guest judge will try to remain interactive in the process, because the contest element to me is secondary to extracting the maximum amount of versatility and power out of the feat resource.

Point Allocation Rubric
The following list is not exhaustive of how points will be allocated, as I imagine that there will be weird end cases.

Suggestion of a non-overtly obvious class feature, spell, feat, skill trick, psi-power, magic/psionic item, or monster that interplays with the feat to produce an exaggerated result.

Overt Obviousness will be judged by me, but I will generally allocate points generously, What I am trying to avoid is people suggesting feat interplays that are non-exceptional and thus cluttering the thread with lame and uninteresting things. 1 pt

If the suggestion is particularly powerful or clever, an additional point may be allocated to reward the optimizerly thinking. This decision is mine, although I will be swayed by what seems like genuine "co-signing," where other posters in the thread really glom onto the idea and develop it further.

A small build stub, between 5-12 levels, that includes a small write up of how the feat interplays with a few class features, racial features, spells, powers and feats to produce an effect that is far beyond the scope of what the feat of the week is capable of providing on its own. 5 points. +/- 1 point.

A rather undeveloped stub may only receive 4 points if it is a slightly modified rehash of a previous stub. A rather ingenious stub can earn an extra point. In some cases, you may actually do both! All of these are judgement calls as adjudicated by myself.

A fully functional optimization of the feat that ramps it up to its maximum power level where there is no way to possibly make it more amazing, including a 20 level build that follows the same format as iron chef dishes, but with minimal write up, is worthy of 10-12 points.

As the Chair, I will remain interactive throughout the thread, even suggesting a few builds. Commenting on these is fine and all of the rubric points apply to those as well. This means that the thread is not a totally objective competition.

A display of relevant rules expertise that shapes the discussion is worthy of 0 or 1 point. This is the "squishiest" criteria, and will only be allocated when it corrects part of the conversation that is going too far off the rails. Particularly nasty interchanges about RAW may lead to abdication of this point. Being incorrect isn't an immoral offense, so I want an atmosphere where suggestions are flying but staying generally within the real bounds of dnd play. RAW discussions tend to get a little too personal, and hopefully this arbitrary point system can circumvent that. Plus, seeing as how extensive the rules system is, it is easy for me to get excited about how to make an idea work and get lost about the details.

BIAS
I am not a perfect judge. I prefer mundane to magical. I prefer Tier 3 and below to Tier 2 and up. But I do love me some dysfunction. So optimization that requires a lot of high level spells or powers (anything level 4 or up) will be less impressive to me. Go ahead and make your suggestion, I will try to police these biases in myself, but understand that these are factors that are in play.

Other information
All of that said, I have an exhibited tendency to be more forgiving/rules lax, whereas some of you are far more RAW heavy. I really do appreciate ya'll, so don't be afraid to reign in some of the theory and ground it in what is explicitly allowed. Different tables play the game differently. And this forum tends to highlight super polarized ends of this permissiveness spectrum that spans from "RAW to a fault" - "So ridiculously theoretically unbalanced beyond any DM's willingness to allow". Most play tends to be in the middle, if not a little skewed towards RAW: but not all play. With that in mind, if requested, if you are asked to assume that the theoretical DM handwaves your criticism as a special exception, please update your approach and proceed from there if you would like to continue to parse the possibilities that a feat offers. In this way, we can develop the full spectrum of what a feat can do.

This week's Feat is Pain Mastery from Savage Species p.37

This endeavor concludes at 11:59PM Eastern Standard Time on March 7th, 2017

Optimize this Feat 1:Wanderer's Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472308-Optimize-This-Feat-1-Wanderer-s-Diplomacy): VAZ
Optimize this Feat 2: Conductivity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473047-Optimize-this-Feat-2-Conductivity-from-Unearthed-Arcana&highlight=Conductivity): ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 3: Swim-by Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?474225-Optimize-this-feat-3-Swim-by-attack-from-Stormwrack): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 4: Contagious Paralysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?476019-Optimize-this-Feat-4-Contagious-Paralysis-from-Libris-Mortis) WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 5: Hammer and Piton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477681-Optimize-this-Feat-5-Hammer-and-Piton-From-Dungeonscape) Zetapup
Optimize this Feat 6: Residual Rebound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479041-Optimize-this-Feat-6-Residual-Rebound-from-Unearthed-Arcana&p=20493024#post20493024) ben-zayb
Optimize this Feat 7: Mark of Phlegethos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480323-Optimize-this-Feat-7-Mark-of-Phlegethos-from-Fiendish-Codex-2-Tot9H): Darrin
Optimize this Feat 8: Seelie Court Noble Kelir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492298-Optimize-this-Feat-8-Seelie-Court-Noble-Kelir-(web)): Jowgen
Optimize this Feat 9: Animal Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493792-Optimize-this-Feat-9-Races-of-Faerun-s-Animal-friends-p-161): Troacctid
Optimize this Feat 10A: Primary Contact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round&p=21075488#post21075488): Jormengand & WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat 10B lightning round: Einhander from PHB2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?495860-Optimize-this-feat-10-Primary-Contact-plus-Einhander-lightning-round): Zaq

Optimize this Feat 11: Supremely Confident from Dragon #335 p.88 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496731-Optimize-this-feat-11-Supremely-Confident-from-Dragon-335-p-88&p=21076906): To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat 12: Spirit Sense (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498138-Optimize-this-feat-12-Spirit-Sense-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-124) from Heroes of Horror p.124: Jormengand
Optimize this Feat #13: Cards Over Swords (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement&p=21301495#post21301495) from the Three Dragon Ante Web: Darrin & Morcleon
Optimize this Feat #14: Dual Planes Summons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503445-Optimize-this-Feat-14-Dual-Plane-Summons-from-Dragon-313) from Dragon Magazine #313: To Be Determined
Optimize this Feat #15: Formation Expert (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?505193-Optimize-This-Feat-15-Formation-Expert-from-Complete-Warrior-p-110) from Complete Warrior: Darrin
Optimize this feat #16: Bloodspiked Charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?506408-Optimize-this-Feat-16-Bloodspiked-Charger-from-PHB2): WhamBamSam
Optimize this Feat #17: Betrayal of the Spirit linked from Dragon Magazine #336 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?509597-Optimize-This-Feat-17-Betrayal-of-the-spirit-linked-from-dragon-magazine-336): Menzath
Optimize this Feat #18: Truebond from DMG2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510434-Optimize-this-Feat-18-Truebond-from-DMG2&p=21574324): unseenmage
Optimize this feat #19: Eldritch Corruption from Heroes of Horror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?511910-Optimize-this-Feat-19-Eldritch-Corruption-from-Heroes-of-Horror-p-122#post21592555): Darrin.
Optimize this Feat #20: Imbued Healing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512996-Optimize-this-Feat-20-Imbued-Healing-from-Complete-Champion-p-60&p=21632245) from Complete Champion: Lateral & Troacctid
Optimize this Feat #21: Create Spectral Spawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514470-Optimize-this-Feat-21-Create-Spectral-Spawn-from-Dragons-of-Faerun-Web-Supplement) from Dragons of Faerun Web Enhancement: WhamBamSam
Upcoming Schedule:[/B]

Don't post your ideas for these on the wrong competition. Save em. Unleash your brilliance on us.
Optimize this feat #23: Wingstorm from savage species p.40
Optimize this feat #24: Ragewild Fighting from Races of Eberron p.118
Optimize this feat #25: Mastery of the Dead from Player's Guide to Eberron p.

Other feats in the pool: detach from Savage Species, Elder Giant magic, stamp, battleshifter training, Multi-tasking, Tainted Druid (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a<br /><br />http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a), Spell Mantle (LEoF p.112),

[daremetoidareyo]

Here is the feat text

Pain Mastery
Injuries send you into a fury, increasing your physical power.
Prerequisite Toughness, CON 20,
Benefit You take damage normally, but every 50 points of damage you take (if you survive the attack) automatically increases your Strength by +2. This bonus lasts until the end of the encounter, after which you are exhausted.

This one is gonna get real weird.

Edit: We are assuming that these +2 bonuses stack with each other, so if you can take 20,000 damage, you can get +400 str.

[MisterKaws]

Shadow Sun Ninja, then touch yourself?

Twenty rounds later, and I come up with a way to use the same damned joke...

[Zaq]

Technically, doing this more than once gives multiple bonuses from the same source. Are we assuming that they stack (likely based on the use of the term "every")?

Also, are we assuming that you have to take all 50 points of damage in one package?

[Thurbane]

Combine it with the Masochism spell and put it on a Lashemoi or Turlemoi. Maybe with Barbarian levels and the Berserker Strength ACF. Have it wear Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain* for fun and giggles.


*I can't even type that wihtout laughing at the sheer silliness of the name.

[Zaq]

I feel like the "too easy, no points" option for getting enough HP to use this over and over is Shambling Mound cheese, but if you're already invoking Shambling Mound cheese, getting some extra STR isn't going to fundamentally change what problems you're capable of solving.

[BaronDoctor]

A nice helping of Persistent Delay Death and Persistent Lesser Vigor will help you survive your masochistic tendencies. Sandals of the Vagabond decreases the exhaustion to fatigue, and remove fatigue would let you go again immediately if need be. Untyped bonus with language that suggests it stacks with itself sounds prime for some form of shenanigans. Maybe make friends with a d2 crusader or find a way to take the maneuver yourself? Wait. RKV is a cleric / crusader blend. You just need diehard. Wait a tick, doesn't Ordained Champion get that?

Cleric 3 / Ordained Champion 3 / Crusader 4 / RKV 10.

Weapon Focus (favored weapon), (1) Extend, (3) Persist (6), DMM Persist (9), Toughness (12), Pain Mastery (15), open feat.

Consider being Illumian for the Aeshkrau sigil. Human will get your primary trick online quicker. Some convenient means of getting Regeneration will make this all much more convenient (and hilarious should everything ever be dispelled: rather than not existing, you simply collapse from being hilariously overtired)

Leaving aside the deity / alignment issues, you need a deity with luck and war domains. Conveniently, Kurtulmak and Haela Brightaxe exist; doubly convenient: Haela Brightaxe is a chaotic-aligned deity and you could probably reflavor Ordained Champion for her. Alternatively you could follow some kind of luck/war ideal. At any rate, you get a 9th level maneuver (getting to IL 17 at level 20) and 7th level cleric casting (CL 13).

Starting your day with Delay Death, Lesser Vigor, and Diehard means that you don't stop just because you take a little bit of damage. Or a lot of damage.

You're in aura of chaos stance. Once you hit an encounter (even an encounter with the sun), you either cast faith healing on yourself or take out your spell-storing (Cure Light Wounds) Small Shuriken and jab yourself with it. Either way, imbued healing goes off. You take infinite damage (and, through the feat, gain an infinite but lesser bonus to your strength score). You're still able to act normally. Do whatever you want to do with infinite strength, which provides you infinite bonus spells. At some point, remove the shuriken and continue to act normally. Heal yourself afterward with your infinite bonus spells if you want.

...I think I just accidentally ended up in TO.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

does it work with the Crusader HP pool from Steely Resolve (Ex)?

[Dagroth]

does it work with the Crusader HP pool from Steely Resolve (Ex)?

I couldn't imagine it wouldn't. You're still taking the damage, just delaying the wound.

Seems like an awesome feat for a Troll. The feat doesn't say it can't be Non-Lethal damage.

[animewatcha]

Is there a way to change how the rage/frenzy lasting Con-based rounds can be changed to lasting Strength-based rounds?

[MisterKaws]

Is there a way to change how the rage/frenzy lasting Con-based rounds can be changed to lasting Strength-based rounds?

No, but Pun-Pun's infinite ability scores are achieved by transferring Strength to other values, so you can do just that.

[animewatcha]

When you move through something like a blade barrier along the line of the spell ( like through every square it occupies ), do you take take only once or for each square you move through?

[Zancloufer]

When it says "take damage" I assume doing something silly like Trolls that are immune to non-lethal damage doesn't work?

Even better: Psionic gish with [hostile] empathetic transfer. Just off the damage onto someone else as you take it and you gain free strength in the process. Also the spell is Will half with an option to AoE, so if you have at least two targets you always unload at least 50 damage off on to them. It also bypasses EVERYTHING you make a touch attack against unless they are immune to mind effecting attacks.

It's a Telepath/Psychic Warrior 3 spell, which means Psion [Telepath] 5 or Psion/Psychic warrior 7. Since we are going into gish territory (+2 str is useless on a non-gish caster unless you somehow roll something like Rage Mage in) Psychic Warrior 7+ is the build that would probably work best. At level 11+ we can AoE with our Hostile Empathetic Transfer, guaranteeing that we can off-load enough damage with a single casting to keep up with the damage we take. Now you just need a way to deal with being Exhausted after combat. Or things that are immune to mind effecting abilities. Maybe a bag of tricks to summon disposable animals to fire it off on?

[Thurbane]

When it says "take damage" I assume doing something silly like Trolls that are immune to non-lethal damage doesn't work?

Trolls still take damage, but it's non-lethal damage.

You could probably achieve a similar effect by having an ally wail on you with a sap or truncheon. :smalltongue:

[Zancloufer]

Trolls still take damage, but it's non-lethal damage.

You could probably achieve a similar effect by having an ally wail on you with a sap or truncheon. :smalltongue:

I mean gaining regeneration + immunity to non-lethal damage. Pretty much putting some sort of silly inherited template on a troll that doesn't negate their CON but grants immunity to non-lethal damage.

[Thurbane]

Crimson Scourge 8: you become immune to non-lethal damage.

Build stub: Human Warblade 5/Crimson Scourge 8/X 7

H Toughness
1 Troll Blooded
3 Urban Tracking
W5 *
6 *
9 *
12 Pain Mastery

Warblade isn't strictly necessary, but it's one of my favorite martial classes. Barbarian or Crusader are also good.

This is all assuming that being immune to damage (other than acid or fire) still counts as "taking damage" for Pain Mastery.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm skeptical of the notion that taking nonlethal damage to which you are immune works for this, but if it does, you can also get Regeneration by playing around with a Shriver (FC II), and thus avoid Dragon Magazine material.

The usual tanking suspects (Iron Guard's Glare/Thicket of Blades, Devoted Defender) should be useful to ensure that damage from your enemies goes to you and not your friends.

There are several ways besides gaining Str to punish your enemies for attacking you. Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike would be the classic option, but there's also the Empathic Feedback power, and on the weirder side, transforming into a Jovoc with Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer.

Azure Toughness is pretty much always a better way of meeting Toughness prereqs, and that's especially true here, as Incarnum is generally a good way to get yourself buckets of HP with which to soak up damage.

[ATHATH]

May I submit Abyss-Bound Soul as a candidate for being analyzed? Of note is one of the effects (that you choose between):
"Demogorgon: Once per day, you can automatically summon a tanar'ri with a CR equal to or less than one-half your character level. The summoned demon follows your commands and remains at your side for up to 1 hour. This ability is the equivalent of a spell cast at a level equal to your character level."

How about Magic of the Land?

When in a natural setting, you can draw on the power of the land to imbue your spells with healing power. For the purpose of this feat, a natural setting is defined as any location not within a community and not a constructed area. "Natural setting" includes unworked caverns, but not crafted dungeons and the like. To use the feat, you must succeed on a Knowledge (nature) check (DC 15 + spell level), made as a free action while casting a spell. You can't take 10 on this check. If you succeed, each target of your spell is healed of 2 points of damage per spell level, in addition to the spell's normal effects. If the spell doesn't have a target entry, this feat has no effect. This healing power is positive energy, so an undead creature instead takes 2 points of damage per spell level. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save (at the spell's normal save DC) to negate this effect. If the skill check fails, the prepared spell or spell slot is lost. You cannot use this feat on any spell with an alignment descriptor, nor with any necromancy spell. The natural world favors balance in all things, and thus does not support specific alignment-based magic, nor can its life-giving power be used to enhance the magic of death.

Harvester of Souls?

"Whenever you use the coup de grace action to kill a creature, that creature cannot be restored to life by any means short of a miracle or wish spell until you are slain. You gain 2 temporary hit points per Hit Die of the slain creature. These temporary hit points last for up to 1 hour."

[Thurbane]

It would also be useful to combo this feat with a constantly renewable source of temporary hit points: Stone Power comes to mind, but there are probably better sources out there.

Build stub update: Human Warblade 5/Crimson Scourge 8/X 7

H Toughness
1 Troll Blooded
3 Urban Tracking
W5 Stone Power
6 *
9 *
12 Pain Mastery

[WhamBamSam]

It would also be useful to combo this feat with a constantly renewable source of temporary hit points: Stone Power comes to mind, but there are probably better sources out there.

Build stub update: Human Warblade 5/Crimson Scourge 8/X 7

H Toughness
1 Troll Blooded
3 Urban Tracking
W5 Stone Power
6 *
9 *
12 Pain MasteryDrop Pain Mastery to 9th level, and make the remaining feats Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit to take more hits and get more out of taking hits. In particular being able to swing back the very moment your Str goes up (and before they have the chance to finish killing you if they have a way around your regeneration) seems valuable to me.

[daremetoidareyo]

We are assuming that the +2 stacks with subsequent bouts of 50 damage. The 2nd post has been updated to reflect this.

Any way to abuse those human racial feats from races of destiny?

or how about that maho blood magic use?

[daremetoidareyo]

demonbinder with a crazy high charisma can bind a balor for 45 temporary hp. But those damnation points only reset after 5 minutes of rest whereas the +2 to strength only lasts until the end of the encounter. Maybe it's a dead end.

[Menzath]

Okay time for some cheesey cheese.
Illumian artificer
As far as feats, extend spell, sculpt spell, leadership, might makes right, and reserves of strength, and of course Pain mastery, and persistent spell.
Most likely you'll need to be lvl 17+ for this.
Step 1. Craft a thought bottle.
Step 2. Craft staves of greater consumptive field and power leech, body outside body(maybe like 10 of these, though more is better). And then metamagic rods of chainx10 spell and widen spell, a staff or three of time stop, and finally a staff/wand of healing. Cause you'll be taking lots of damage.

Step 3. The only follower that we need that really gets this going is a bard with metamagic song that can persist extend the spell protege on us. Have bard cast this on us whenever and then do bard-ly things.

Step 4.When you get Into combat cast time stop, followed by alot of body outside body, followed by more time stops. We are going to be chewing through charges on the staves of BoB because of persisting it(need those clones to last long enough, so the more staves the better. Then the usual extended persisted greater consumptive field. (For safety you may want a scroll of delay death).

At this point we are ready for the fun. We'll cast a chained extended power leech to affect some of our other selves. Now sadly it's an enchantment bonus that only stacks with that casting, but getting a +200 enchantment bonus(average) to every stat never hurt, and the bump to con let's us go to town.

Now once we get a strength score into the something thousands we'll create a few(hundred) of our selves, who will then inspire greatness on us. At this point finish? Or not the encounter, as long as we can get a day too pass with our still chanting other selves. Once the day passes even if we lose the pain mastery STR bonus, which we don't want, so finding a way to stay on combat would be nice we would still have enough HD and STR, that with leadership and might makes right that the whole world would become our followers.
At this point, you win. Win it all.

Side note-my solution to everything is body outside body.

Edit2- oh yeah, clones have to die, I guess they'll just stab themselves or something else mundane.

[Menzath]

Also, what happens if you have more followers than creatures on the planet?

[Cerefel]

Minor Shapeshift is a pretty consistent source of temporary HP. I could see it working well when combined with Stone Power and similar.

[Thurbane]

Minor Shapeshift is a pretty consistent source of temporary HP. I could see it working well when combined with Stone Power and similar.

If you're looking at a caster, spells like Aspect of the Platinum Dragon and Dragonshape are a fairly good source of temp hit points.

Maybe I could modify the stub above into a Gish of some sort?

[Menzath]

I guess a slightly more "normal" method would be a human cleric 7/ knight 6/ binder 1/ hellreaver 6
Cleric domain of transformation for alter self.

Feats would be extend spell, divine metamagic, persistent spell, power attack, pain mastery, heighten spell, and chain spell and minor shapeshift.

We start the day with a chained shield other on our party, and a persisted mass lesser vigor. And set alter self as a heightened spell to 4th level.

In combat have your squish stand behind/next to you at all times so you can shield ally them once a turn as an immediate,
And if you see an enemy caster try and have a redirect spell up on an ally.

And then you can use your swift to either get temp HP from minor shapeshift, heal for 20 from Divine succor (using holy fury) , or take 2 con damage to recharge your holy fury.
That con damage will heal in 2 turns thanks to binding naberius.

All in all it should actually work in combat, still 16 BaB, alright saves and mettle, and even if you dont shield ally, shield other still directs half the parties damage to you.
And of course taking that much damage you may need better burst heals on yourself, hopefully someone else can help with that.

The only way to make this better is possibly being a dvati. We would need a god that has transformation and planning as domains to get that feat in. Not sure how likely that is.
Although if flaws are allowed it becomes way easier.

Edit- is there an easy way to get another at will heal/temp HP buff as a standard action? That would really utilize that dvati action economy.

[weckar]

With all this talk of nonlethal damage... Can I jump in and say Ability damage should count too? :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

Ok, I have some ideas on how to trigger the damage... but I'm stuck on a couple things:

1) Need a list of methods to rack up temporary HPs. So far all I've got is Stone Power and hanging out on the positive energy plane (acorn of far travel?).

2) Need a method to mitigate the Massive Damage Save. Also... does taking 50+ nonlethal damage trigger this save?

[weckar]

Hmm, you'd want high HP, low AC (you want to get hit!) and either no DR, or DR so specific that you can control the damage that way... Fast Healing of a high caliber would also be rather useful.

[daremetoidareyo]

With all this talk of nonlethal damage... Can I jump in and say Ability damage should count too? :smallbiggrin:

Drunkenmaster + chained power leech + a ton of beer

[Menzath]

Well if ability damage counts then a group of binder drunken brawlers followed by a caster with chained power leech would be devastating. Lol have the caster be the healer class (you know what I'm talking about😉)

[Thurbane]

How about hooking up with a Glimmerkin (MM2, p.114)? Effectively fast healing 5 / 5 temporary hit points round.

It would help if you can reliable hit a DC 19 Fort save each round. The Steadfast Determination feat would probably help with this.

[VisitingDaGulag]

when they say damage they do not include ability damage or nonlethal damage. It defaults to hp damage. FAQ / glossary.

Otherwise everything that said "damage" would suddenly allow/work on ability damage, which breaks the game more than whatever you can do directly with this feat

[Menzath]

I saw nothing in FAQ/glossary to support that. Can you give a citation?

[WhamBamSam]

I saw nothing in FAQ/glossary to support that. Can you give a citation?The searchable online glossary would appear to support the opposite.


A decrease in hit points, an ability score, or other aspects of a character caused by an injury, illness, or magical effect. The three main categories of damage are lethal damage, nonlethal damage, and ability damage. In addition, wherever it is relevant, the type of damage an attack deals is specified, since natural abilities, magic items, or spell effects may grant immunity to certain types of damage. Damage types include weapon damage (subdivided into bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing) and energy damage (positive, negative, acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic). Modifiers to melee damage rolls apply to both subcategories of weapon damage (melee and unarmed). Some modifiers apply to both weapon and spell damage, but only if so stated. Damage points are deducted from whatever character attribute has been harmed -- lethal and nonlethal damage from current hit points, and ability damage from the relevant ability score). Damage heals naturally over time, but can also be negated wholly or partially by curative magic.

Source: PHB

Also, here's a build I've been meaning to post here.

CE Otherworldly Human Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Pouncebarian 1/Factotum +2/Thrall of Juiblex 4/Factotum +5 dedicated to some Elder Evil
1. Otherworldly, Toughness, Thrall to Demon
2. Dodge
3. Mobility, Roofwalker
5. Willing Deformity
6. Roof Jumper
9. Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics
10. Deformity (Obese)
12. Assume Supernatural Ability (Jovoc's Aura of Retribution)
15. Pain Mastery, Deformity (Teeth)

We qualify for Otherworldly using the Celestial-Attended Birth option in Champions of Valor. Angels arrived at his birth to herald the arrival of a destined hero. But even angels roll poorly from time to time, and so this hero got dropped on his head. Now he instinctively associates the feeling of falling and the pain of landing with the peace and contentment of the heavens, and just wants to share that with the world.

Alter Self into a Jovoc, gaining its Aura of Retribution through Assume Supernatural Ability. Dive Bomb your target with Roof Jumper, getting a full attack with some bonus damage, then take some damage from the landing. Every non-tanar'ri within 30 ft takes your falling damage too from your Aura of Retribution, with a Fort save for half. If you took enough damage, you get a Str boost from Pain Mastery. You can make standard action charges with a damage bonus equal to the fall damage you just took with Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics along with the extra Str from Pain Mastery, so go ahead and Cunning Surge a few of those up as appropriate.

[daremetoidareyo]

Wrathful Healing from Enemies and Allies (Danger, 3.0 material) is a +3 weapon enhancement that heals the user for 1/2 of the damage dealt on all melee attacks. If you power attack for enough, you'll always get the HP you lose back and then some.

This seemed relevant too.


Any cursed items help with the mission to take lots of damage?

[Menzath]

Let's see, there is a flesh ring of scorn, it auto confirms a critical, but you take damage based on your critical multiplier. With a body feeder weapon or the one you mentioned(or both) that's alot of temp HP and healing.

Let's see, I found a sword of venomous loyalty in ravenloft DM guide. Pg. 226.
If your not the swords master and you pick it up, the two snake guards animate and attack you. Forever. Also it says they score automatic hits and the poison save the player makes is at -4.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'll wrap this up on Sunday.

[Anthrowhale]

If you use Magic Jar on a Mountain Giant (Will +10) you acquire its 525 hp with a fort save bonus of +13 from Con 37. So if you are a wizard 9 you can possess a mountain giant (CR 26? Eh?), place your body in a mountain giant backpack and use your Pain Mastery to become an absurdly powerful bruiser who can also cast spells (class & level abilities are dependent on the possessor. Your strength is already 43, but surely some way can be found to hit yourself for ~450hp leaving you with a very reasonable 75hp at level 9 and an effective strength of 61, which can be further enhanced with spells. If you happen to lose a massive damage fortitude save (5% of the time), then your spirit just goes back to the magic jar.

[daremetoidareyo]

Shadow Sun Ninja, then touch yourself?

Twenty rounds later, and I come up with a way to use the same damned joke...

This technique, paired with a number of huge HD animals can make you quite formidable as a 20 round prebuff...

2 points


Technically, doing this more than once gives multiple bonuses from the same source. Are we assuming that they stack (likely based on the use of the term "every")?

Also, are we assuming that you have to take all 50 points of damage in one package?

2 good rules questions: 2 points


Combine it with the Masochism spell and put it on a Lashemoi or Turlemoi. Maybe with Barbarian levels and the Berserker Strength ACF. Have it wear Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain* for fun and giggles.


*I can't even type that without laughing at the sheer silliness of the name.

3 points: masochism + weird races + nippleclamps


I feel like the "too easy, no points" option for getting enough HP to use this over and over is Shambling Mound cheese, but if you're already invoking Shambling Mound cheese, getting some extra STR isn't going to fundamentally change what problems you're capable of solving.

1 point


A nice helping of Persistent Delay Death and Persistent Lesser Vigor will help you survive your masochistic tendencies. Sandals of the Vagabond decreases the exhaustion to fatigue, and remove fatigue would let you go again immediately if need be. Untyped bonus with language that suggests it stacks with itself sounds prime for some form of shenanigans. Maybe make friends with a d2 crusader or find a way to take the maneuver yourself? Wait. RKV is a cleric / crusader blend. You just need diehard. Wait a tick, doesn't Ordained Champion get that?

Cleric 3 / Ordained Champion 3 / Crusader 4 / RKV 10.

Weapon Focus (favored weapon), (1) Extend, (3) Persist (6), DMM Persist (9), Toughness (12), Pain Mastery (15), open feat.

Consider being Illumian for the Aeshkrau sigil. Human will get your primary trick online quicker. Some convenient means of getting Regeneration will make this all much more convenient (and hilarious should everything ever be dispelled: rather than not existing, you simply collapse from being hilariously overtired)

Leaving aside the deity / alignment issues, you need a deity with luck and war domains. Conveniently, Kurtulmak and Haela Brightaxe exist; doubly convenient: Haela Brightaxe is a chaotic-aligned deity and you could probably reflavor Ordained Champion for her. Alternatively you could follow some kind of luck/war ideal. At any rate, you get a 9th level maneuver (getting to IL 17 at level 20) and 7th level cleric casting (CL 13).

Starting your day with Delay Death, Lesser Vigor, and Diehard means that you don't stop just because you take a little bit of damage. Or a lot of damage.

You're in aura of chaos stance. Once you hit an encounter (even an encounter with the sun), you either cast faith healing on yourself or take out your spell-storing (Cure Light Wounds) Small Shuriken and jab yourself with it. Either way, imbued healing goes off. You take infinite damage (and, through the feat, gain an infinite but lesser bonus to your strength score). You're still able to act normally. Do whatever you want to do with infinite strength, which provides you infinite bonus spells. At some point, remove the shuriken and continue to act normally. Heal yourself afterward with your infinite bonus spells if you want.

...I think I just accidentally ended up in TO.

12 points nice build


does it work with the Crusader HP pool from Steely Resolve (Ex)?

good question. I think that you need hp damage to occur in order for it to work. But for asking the tough questions: 1 point


I couldn't imagine it wouldn't. You're still taking the damage, just delaying the wound.

Seems like an awesome feat for a Troll. The feat doesn't say it can't be Non-Lethal damage.

agreed on 1. Troll: 2 points


Is there a way to change how the rage/frenzy lasting Con-based rounds can be changed to lasting Strength-based rounds?

not that i know of...


No, but Pun-Pun's infinite ability scores are achieved by transferring Strength to other values, so you can do just that.

pun pun is terrible. 1 point


When you move through something like a blade barrier along the line of the spell ( like through every square it occupies ), do you take take only once or for each square you move through?

I think maybe? 1 point


When it says "take damage" I assume doing something silly like Trolls that are immune to non-lethal damage doesn't work?

Even better: Psionic gish with [hostile] empathetic transfer. Just off the damage onto someone else as you take it and you gain free strength in the process. Also the spell is Will half with an option to AoE, so if you have at least two targets you always unload at least 50 damage off on to them. It also bypasses EVERYTHING you make a touch attack against unless they are immune to mind effecting attacks.

It's a Telepath/Psychic Warrior 3 spell, which means Psion [Telepath] 5 or Psion/Psychic warrior 7. Since we are going into gish territory (+2 str is useless on a non-gish caster unless you somehow roll something like Rage Mage in) Psychic Warrior 7+ is the build that would probably work best. At level 11+ we can AoE with our Hostile Empathetic Transfer, guaranteeing that we can off-load enough damage with a single casting to keep up with the damage we take. Now you just need a way to deal with being Exhausted after combat. Or things that are immune to mind effecting abilities. Maybe a bag of tricks to summon disposable animals to fire it off on?

I think trolls probably do work by raw. 5 points for baby stubs and good idea


Trolls still take damage, but it's non-lethal damage.

You could probably achieve a similar effect by having an ally wail on you with a sap or truncheon. :smalltongue:

cheesy ally tactics: 1 point


I mean gaining regeneration + immunity to non-lethal damage. Pretty much putting some sort of silly inherited template on a troll that doesn't negate their CON but grants immunity to non-lethal damage.

yeah. it might work. 1 point


Crimson Scourge 8: you become immune to non-lethal damage.

Build stub: Human Warblade 5/Crimson Scourge 8/X 7

H Toughness
1 Troll Blooded
3 Urban Tracking
W5 *
6 *
9 *
12 Pain Mastery

Warblade isn't strictly necessary, but it's one of my favorite martial classes. Barbarian or Crusader are also good.

This is all assuming that being immune to damage (other than acid or fire) still counts as "taking damage" for Pain Mastery.

5 points for stub.


I'm skeptical of the notion that taking nonlethal damage to which you are immune works for this, but if it does, you can also get Regeneration by playing around with a Shriver (FC II), and thus avoid Dragon Magazine material.

The usual tanking suspects (Iron Guard's Glare/Thicket of Blades, Devoted Defender) should be useful to ensure that damage from your enemies goes to you and not your friends.

There are several ways besides gaining Str to punish your enemies for attacking you. Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike would be the classic option, but there's also the Empathic Feedback power, and on the weirder side, transforming into a Jovoc with Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer.

Azure Toughness is pretty much always a better way of meeting Toughness prereqs, and that's especially true here, as Incarnum is generally a good way to get yourself buckets of HP with which to soak up damage.

shriver: 2 points, tanking 2 points., jovoc: 1 point, azure toughness 1 point


May I submit Abyss-Bound Soul as a candidate for being analyzed? Of note is one of the effects (that you choose between):
"Demogorgon: Once per day, you can automatically summon a tanar'ri with a CR equal to or less than one-half your character level. The summoned demon follows your commands and remains at your side for up to 1 hour. This ability is the equivalent of a spell cast at a level equal to your character level."

How about Magic of the Land?

When in a natural setting, you can draw on the power of the land to imbue your spells with healing power. For the purpose of this feat, a natural setting is defined as any location not within a community and not a constructed area. "Natural setting" includes unworked caverns, but not crafted dungeons and the like. To use the feat, you must succeed on a Knowledge (nature) check (DC 15 + spell level), made as a free action while casting a spell. You can't take 10 on this check. If you succeed, each target of your spell is healed of 2 points of damage per spell level, in addition to the spell's normal effects. If the spell doesn't have a target entry, this feat has no effect. This healing power is positive energy, so an undead creature instead takes 2 points of damage per spell level. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save (at the spell's normal save DC) to negate this effect. If the skill check fails, the prepared spell or spell slot is lost. You cannot use this feat on any spell with an alignment descriptor, nor with any necromancy spell. The natural world favors balance in all things, and thus does not support specific alignment-based magic, nor can its life-giving power be used to enhance the magic of death.

Harvester of Souls?

"Whenever you use the coup de grace action to kill a creature, that creature cannot be restored to life by any means short of a miracle or wish spell until you are slain. You gain 2 temporary hit points per Hit Die of the slain creature. These temporary hit points last for up to 1 hour."

abyss bound soul 1 point. harvester of souls is awesome 1 point. magic of the land 1 point, but im not seeing an easy way to do it.


It would also be useful to combo this feat with a constantly renewable source of temporary hit points: Stone Power comes to mind, but there are probably better sources out there.

Build stub update: Human Warblade 5/Crimson Scourge 8/X 7

H Toughness
1 Troll Blooded
3 Urban Tracking
W5 Stone Power
6 *
9 *
12 Pain Mastery

Nice. Stone power + shadow sun ninja seems pretty legit also. 1 point


Drop Pain Mastery to 9th level, and make the remaining feats Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit to take more hits and get more out of taking hits. In particular being able to swing back the very moment your Str goes up (and before they have the chance to finish killing you if they have a way around your regeneration) seems valuable to me.

1 point for being so darn helpful


Okay time for some cheesey cheese.
Illumian artificer
As far as feats, extend spell, sculpt spell, leadership, might makes right, and reserves of strength, and of course Pain mastery, and persistent spell.
Most likely you'll need to be lvl 17+ for this.
Step 1. Craft a thought bottle.
Step 2. Craft staves of greater consumptive field and power leech, body outside body(maybe like 10 of these, though more is better). And then metamagic rods of chainx10 spell and widen spell, a staff or three of time stop, and finally a staff/wand of healing. Cause you'll be taking lots of damage.

Step 3. The only follower that we need that really gets this going is a bard with metamagic song that can persist extend the spell protege on us. Have bard cast this on us whenever and then do bard-ly things.

Step 4.When you get Into combat cast time stop, followed by alot of body outside body, followed by more time stops. We are going to be chewing through charges on the staves of BoB because of persisting it(need those clones to last long enough, so the more staves the better. Then the usual extended persisted greater consumptive field. (For safety you may want a scroll of delay death).

At this point we are ready for the fun. We'll cast a chained extended power leech to affect some of our other selves. Now sadly it's an enchantment bonus that only stacks with that casting, but getting a +200 enchantment bonus(average) to every stat never hurt, and the bump to con let's us go to town.

Now once we get a strength score into the something thousands we'll create a few(hundred) of our selves, who will then inspire greatness on us. At this point finish? Or not the encounter, as long as we can get a day too pass with our still chanting other selves. Once the day passes even if we lose the pain mastery STR bonus, which we don't want, so finding a way to stay on combat would be nice we would still have enough HD and STR, that with leadership and might makes right that the whole world would become our followers.
At this point, you win. Win it all.

Side note-my solution to everything is body outside body.

Edit2- oh yeah, clones have to die, I guess they'll just stab themselves or something else mundane.

TO craziness: 4 points


Also, what happens if you have more followers than creatures on the planet?

I think you start a religion...1 point


Minor Shapeshift is a pretty consistent source of temporary HP. I could see it working well when combined with Stone Power and similar.

nice. 1 point


If you're looking at a caster, spells like Aspect of the Platinum Dragon and Dragonshape are a fairly good source of temp hit points.

Maybe I could modify the stub above into a Gish of some sort?

1 point for additional spell healing


I guess a slightly more "normal" method would be a human cleric 7/ knight 6/ binder 1/ hellreaver 6
Cleric domain of transformation for alter self.

Feats would be extend spell, divine metamagic, persistent spell, power attack, pain mastery, heighten spell, and chain spell and minor shapeshift.

We start the day with a chained shield other on our party, and a persisted mass lesser vigor. And set alter self as a heightened spell to 4th level.

In combat have your squish stand behind/next to you at all times so you can shield ally them once a turn as an immediate,
And if you see an enemy caster try and have a redirect spell up on an ally.

And then you can use your swift to either get temp HP from minor shapeshift, heal for 20 from Divine succor (using holy fury) , or take 2 con damage to recharge your holy fury.
That con damage will heal in 2 turns thanks to binding naberius.

All in all it should actually work in combat, still 16 BaB, alright saves and mettle, and even if you dont shield ally, shield other still directs half the parties damage to you.
And of course taking that much damage you may need better burst heals on yourself, hopefully someone else can help with that.

The only way to make this better is possibly being a dvati. We would need a god that has transformation and planning as domains to get that feat in. Not sure how likely that is.
Although if flaws are allowed it becomes way easier.

Edit- is there an easy way to get another at will heal/temp HP buff as a standard action? That would really utilize that dvati action economy.

build: 10 points


With all this talk of nonlethal damage... Can I jump in and say Ability damage should count too? :smallbiggrin:

yes you can. 1 point


Ok, I have some ideas on how to trigger the damage... but I'm stuck on a couple things:

1) Need a list of methods to rack up temporary HPs. So far all I've got is Stone Power and hanging out on the positive energy plane (acorn of far travel?).

2) Need a method to mitigate the Massive Damage Save. Also... does taking 50+ nonlethal damage trigger this save?

I think 50+ nonlethal may trigger the save. 1 point for that
you said hanging out in positive energy plane so how about a...planar shepherd? 2 points for cleverness


Hmm, you'd want high HP, low AC (you want to get hit!) and either no DR, or DR so specific that you can control the damage that way... Fast Healing of a high caliber would also be rather useful.

specs: 1 point


Well if ability damage counts then a group of binder drunken brawlers followed by a caster with chained power leech would be devastating. Lol have the caster be the healer class (you know what I'm talking about😉)

1 point.


How about hooking up with a Glimmerkin (MM2, p.114)? Effectively fast healing 5 / 5 temporary hit points round.

It would help if you can reliable hit a DC 19 Fort save each round. The Steadfast Determination feat would probably help with this.

insightful. 2 points


when they say damage they do not include ability damage or nonlethal damage. It defaults to hp damage. FAQ / glossary.

Otherwise everything that said "damage" would suddenly allow/work on ability damage, which breaks the game more than whatever you can do directly with this feat

I don't know if that's correct


The searchable online glossary would appear to support the opposite.



Also, here's a build I've been meaning to post here.

CE Otherworldly Human Factotum 1/Fighter 2/Pouncebarian 1/Factotum +2/Thrall of Juiblex 4/Factotum +5 dedicated to some Elder Evil
1. Otherworldly, Toughness, Thrall to Demon
2. Dodge
3. Mobility, Roofwalker
5. Willing Deformity
6. Roof Jumper
9. Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics
10. Deformity (Obese)
12. Assume Supernatural Ability (Jovoc's Aura of Retribution)
15. Pain Mastery, Deformity (Teeth)

We qualify for Otherworldly using the Celestial-Attended Birth option in Champions of Valor. Angels arrived at his birth to herald the arrival of a destined hero. But even angels roll poorly from time to time, and so this hero got dropped on his head. Now he instinctively associates the feeling of falling and the pain of landing with the peace and contentment of the heavens, and just wants to share that with the world.

Alter Self into a Jovoc, gaining its Aura of Retribution through Assume Supernatural Ability. Dive Bomb your target with Roof Jumper, getting a full attack with some bonus damage, then take some damage from the landing. Every non-tanar'ri within 30 ft takes your falling damage too from your Aura of Retribution, with a Fort save for half. If you took enough damage, you get a Str boost from Pain Mastery. You can make standard action charges with a damage bonus equal to the fall damage you just took with Gnome Tunnel Acrobatics along with the extra Str from Pain Mastery, so go ahead and Cunning Surge a few of those up as appropriate.

12 points for your pain yoyo build


Let's see, there is a flesh ring of scorn, it auto confirms a critical, but you take damage based on your critical multiplier. With a body feeder weapon or the one you mentioned(or both) that's alot of temp HP and healing.

Let's see, I found a sword of venomous loyalty in ravenloft DM guide. Pg. 226.
If your not the swords master and you pick it up, the two snake guards animate and attack you. Forever. Also it says they score automatic hits and the poison save the player makes is at -4.

3 points for being so helpful. How does that sword work with trouserfang? (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471110-The-Trouserfang-Dwarf)


If you use Magic Jar on a Mountain Giant (Will +10) you acquire its 525 hp with a fort save bonus of +13 from Con 37. So if you are a wizard 9 you can possess a mountain giant (CR 26? Eh?), place your body in a mountain giant backpack and use your Pain Mastery to become an absurdly powerful bruiser who can also cast spells (class & level abilities are dependent on the possessor. Your strength is already 43, but surely some way can be found to hit yourself for ~450hp leaving you with a very reasonable 75hp at level 9 and an effective strength of 61, which can be further enhanced with spells. If you happen to lose a massive damage fortitude save (5% of the time), then your spirit just goes back to the magic jar.


Nice moves: 3 points

[daremetoidareyo]

MisterKaws: 3
Zaq: 3
Thurbane: 13
BaronDoctor: 12
BloodSnake'sCha: 1
Dagroth: 2
animewatcha: 1
Zancloufer: 6
WhamBamSam: 19
ATHATH: 3
Menzath: 19
Cerefel: 1
Weckar: 2
Darrin: 3
Anthrowhale:3

What a number of new contributors! Thanks guys, I hope you submit builds and suggestions in the contests to come.

It looks like we have another tie. As is customary, we split the reward benefit halfway. WhamBath or MenzamSam...

For pain Mastery we use the most painful font, comic sans, and render it in the color most symbolic of pain, Danger Red, and we strike through it to represent the pain of physical danger. Demonstrating the strength growth is the changing font size. So here it is to our two co-champs of Optimize this feat #22: Pain Mastery

WhamBamSam and Menzath


The new gauntlet has been thrown: Come help us figure out how Wingstorm from Savage Species (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?519656-Optimize-this-Feat-23-Wingstorm-from-Savage-Species-p-40&p=21856545) can be used to maximum efficacy.