A Frenzy Fix?

[djreynolds]

What if like mindless rage, lets you stave off fear and charm while raging...
What if while raging... for that 1 minute you are not exhausted, while frenzy you are not exhausted... but after that 1 minute you levels of exhaustion come back.

So lets say you frenzied the previous battle, you have 1 level of exhaustion, next fight while you rage that level of exhaustion is suspended, and you can still frenzy but at the end of the rage... you now have 2 levels of exhaustion. If you didn't rage, you still have only 1 level of exhaustion

Next fight so on.

This may not fix the first issue of frenzy and the bonus action, but it does help with exhaustion in battle, when you are needed and until the next fight the paladin and fighter will just have to drag you along.

[Deleted]

Just remove exhaustion and the Frenzy is fixed.

If you must have some sort of punishment for using signature class features, have them lose hit dice.

[Specter]

A) Make all exhaustion gained from Frenzy removable after one long rest
B) Make them lose hit points at the end of it instead of gaining exhaustion
C) Make a maximum of exhaustion levels that can be gained through this (like two)

[Lombra]

I have replied to a thread like this in the past, here's my "fixes": (comment copied from that thread)
"Solutions that came to my mind in order of strength:

•While frenzying you gain an extra bonus action with which you can only perform one melee weapon attack. This makes dual wielding and PAM useful to the barbarian, effectively glorifying PAM once again. Why bonus action and not action? To limit the usage of strength checks to only two times a turn.

•Berserkers can heal one level of exhaustion on short or long rests. Or *rage bonus* levels on short or long rests. This makes exhaustion dangerous in controlled doses spread in an adventure day, and gives more utility to the berserker (being able to recover quickly from exhaustion generally allows you to make crazyer stuff)

• Berserkers ignore exhaustion levels while raging (by extent, while frenzying too), no exceptions needed, this balances itself with the never-ending rages and the growing amount of rages that you get while leveling up to unlimited uses.

I think that these are in-line with the general simplistic feel that 5e has and are easy to understand and play."

PS: I actually have no problems on how the rage works as of right now.

[jas61292]

While I don't think this would cause any issues, and might be a good change to do, I ultimately don't think it is needed. Anyone who says exhaustion is too big a penalty, probably has not played a berserker. Its really not that bad, at all.

The bigger issue, by far, is the need of a bonus action to activate it, meaning no second attack until the second round. Again, this is not a huge issue, but if you want to "fix" frenzy, this would do far more to fix it than anything to do with exhaustion.

[Deleted]

While I don't think this would cause any issues, and might be a good change to do, I ultimately don't think it is needed. Anyone who says exhaustion is too big a penalty, probably has not played a berserker. Its really not that bad, at all.

The bigger issue, by far, is the need of a bonus action to activate it, meaning no second attack until the second round. Again, this is not a huge issue, but if you want to "fix" frenzy, this would do far more to fix it than anything to do with exhaustion.

As someone who has played plenty of barbarians with frenzy as is, I can tell you it needs to be fixed.

Exhaustion takes away everything you get as a barbarian.

Disadvantage on ability checks: Counters rage and your primary non-damage dealing ability.

Speed halved: Counters your fast movement. The barbarian is very reliant on movement as all of their features rely on melee attacks.

Disadvantage on attacks and saves: Counters reckless attack and rage. The one thing barbarians have via class features is attacks.

Hit Point Maximum Halved: Counters the very basic premise of the barbarian having the most durability via HP.

Speed Reduced to 0: See speed halved.

Death: Barbarians are supposed to kill others with their rage, not thenselves.

Exhaustion is basically the antithesis of the barbarian in every way from ideology to mechanics.

I would say that it unfairly targets the barbarian. Its almost like they took the barbarian and specifically made exhaustion counter them.

[DanyBallon]

As someone who has played plenty of barbarians with frenzy as is, I can tell you it needs to be fixed.

Exhaustion takes away everything you get as a barbarian.

Disadvantage on ability checks: Counters rage and your primary non-damage dealing ability.

Speed halved: Counters your fast movement. The barbarian is very reliant on movement as all of their features rely on melee attacks.

Disadvantage on attacks and saves: Counters reckless attack and rage. The one thing barbarians have via class features is attacks.

Hit Point Maximum Halved: Counters the very basic premise of the barbarian having the most durability via HP.

Speed Reduced to 0: See speed halved.

Death: Barbarians are supposed to kill others with their rage, not thenselves.

Exhaustion is basically the antithesis of the barbarian in every way from ideology to mechanics.

I would say that it unfairly targets the barbarian. Its almost like they took the barbarian and specifically made exhaustion counter them.

Or you could see it the other way around, and say that because of the barbarian features, they are best suited to lower the negative effects of exhaustion (except for the last two levels). It's only a matter of perspective. :smallbiggrin:

[gfishfunk]

Add a new feature: A barbarian can spend two hit dice during a short rest to get rid of one level of exhaustion. Fixed.

[Deleted]

Or you could see it the other way around, and say that because of the barbarian features, they are best suited to lower the negative effects of exhaustion (except for the last two levels). It's only a matter of perspective. :smallbiggrin:

So, if you want to Frenzy, you have to give up all your Barbarian-ness just because you boosted your damage?

Seems like a direct and deliberate punishment to me. What's worse is that the punishment is because of DPR increase which is the least broken thing in 5e.

[HolyDraconus]

Why is that a fix? What other class has a feature that directly kills you? At least wild sorcerer can level out of threat of death, but a barb will always have that.

[Steampunkette]

On free Frenzy per long rest.

When you try to Frenzy after that, you burn a hit die to enter Frenzy.

If you have no hit dice remaining, you can take 1d12+con damage to enter a frenzy.

[Deleted]

Why is that a fix? What other class has a feature that directly kills you? At least wild sorcerer can level out of threat of death, but a barb will always have that.

You know, my issue with the Chaos Sorcerer isn't even that it can kill itself.

My biggest gripe is that the DM has such a heavy hand in the player using that feature.

But yeah, features that actively kill you shouldn't be part of the game unless the player wants it to be. As it is now, the Barbarian is forced to go magic (Totem) unless they want to not gain a level 3 feature that actively works against them and eventually kills them.

Hell, even the lower level of exhaustion can get you killed.

[Lombra]

Frenzy isn't meant to be used in every combat, you are not going to get more than 2 levels of exhaustion, it's a feature that you can read as: if you are in trouble and the alternative is death, congrats! Your damage per round has increasd by 50%!

[Steampunkette]

Frenzy isn't meant to be used in every combat, you are not going to get more than 2 levels of exhaustion, it's a feature that you can read as: if you are in trouble and the alternative is death, cpngrats! Your damage per round has increased by 50%!

Which is bad design.

All of the Totem Barbarian's abilities are meant to be used every time they rage. The Frenzied Barb essentially gets to use their kit-defining ability once a day and face penalties for the rest of that day because of it.

No other class or kit faces such an egregious penalty for using their defining abilities.

[Puh Laden]

The bigger issue, by far, is the need of a bonus action to activate it, meaning no second attack until the second round. Again, this is not a huge issue, but if you want to "fix" frenzy, this would do far more to fix it than anything to do with exhaustion.

Is there a sage advice or errata that says frenzy requires a bonus action? Because by RAW it doesn't. You can activate frenzy on the same turn you rage to maximize action economy.

[Steampunkette]

The point is on THAT turn you can't do a bonus action attack.

Though for maximum benefit to the Frenzy without making the Totem barb stronger, the benefit should be to allow them to take an attack as part of the bonus action to activate their Rage (regardless of whether they Frenzy or not)

[Lombra]

Which is bad design.

All of the Totem Barbarian's abilities are meant to be used every time they rage. The Frenzied Barb essentially gets to use their kit-defining ability once a day and face penalties for the rest of that day because of it.

No other class or kit faces such an egregious penalty for using their defining abilities.

The berserker is a wonderful mix of flavour and mechanics, it's very far from being bad designed. Plus just because it can kill you it doesn't even mean that you have to kill your character of exhaustion "just because it could", you don't shoot yourself just because you are holding a loaded gun.
It does depend on how your DM handles encounters, but generally the hard ones are towards the end of the day, close to the long rests, so most of the times you are not going to carry the exhaustion level for too long.

[Deleted]

Is there a sage advice or errata that says frenzy requires a bonus action? Because by RAW it doesn't. You can activate frenzy on the same turn you rage to maximize action economy.

Only Rage requires a Bonus Action to activate, however the bonus action attack via Frenzy takes a Bonus Action to use...

Which you already used to enter Rage so you have to wait till your next turn to get your bonus action attack.

Edit===

On design, when you have a feature that kills you, takes away your primary class features, and pushes people to play ANY other option... Yeah it's badly designed.

The rest of the path isn't bad though, just that one feature.

[Steampunkette]

The berserker is a wonderful mix of flavour and mechanics, it's very far from being bad designed. Plus just because it can kill you it doesn't even mean that you have to kill your character of exhaustion "just because it could", you don't shoot yourself just because you are holding a loaded gun.
It does depend on how your DM handles encounters, but generally the hard ones are towards the end of the day, close to the long rests, so most of the times you are not going to carry the exhaustion level for too long.

And if you do two frenzies, it's two days before your penalties disappear. Or Three. Or Five. However many short of 6.

It remains bad design to place one particular character type at massive continuing disadvantage if they use their core ability while all others retain normal function while they continue to use their abilities.

As nice and "Flavorful" as it is, it remains bad mechanical design.

[Deleted]

And if you do two frenzies, it's two days before your penalties disappear. Or Three. Or Five. However many short of 6.

It remains bad design to place one particular character type at massive continuing disadvantage if they use their core ability while all others retain normal function while they continue to use their abilities.

As nice and "Flavorful" as it is, it remains bad mechanical design.

Really, it may be flavorful but it isn't thematic. Barbarians are all about being strong and tough... Yet this feature makes you weaker and weaker and you can't get rid of the effect.

[TripleD]

I really think a true Frenzy fix needs to go right back to the drawing board and not get attached to what is in the PHB. Because the elephant in the room is that Beserkers have to pay a cost (bonus action and rage attempt) for an effect (extra attack) that fighters get for free at level 11, and eventually surpass at level 17.

For a berserker we m need to ask;

What exactly does a 'beserker' do?
What crunch would recreate this fluff?
Does this step on any other classes toes?


What makes you a Beserker?

All barbarians are driven by anger. At least in combat. Berserkers take that to the next level. When I imagine a berserker, I see a frothing-at-the-mouth warrior who has lost the ability to feel fear or form rational thought. Arrows don't slow them down. They hack at opponents with a primal fury over refined technique. Drop them in the middle of a crowd and they will strike at anyone they can as quickly as possible.

How to actually model this?

The class as is does model some of this nicely. Damage reduction from Rage, and the all out assault of Reckless attack, covey a lack of pain and rational thought, respectively. The immunity to mind control effects shows how they cannot be taken away from their single minded purpose.

They extra attack from Frenzy doesn't really feel like "primal Rage" though. It makes them a bit better at dealing with crowds, but nothing that something like the Fighter or Ranger couldn't do as well. There's also nothing that makes them really feel "unstoppable" beyond the extra speed granted to all barbarians.

Proposed Solution

We make it so that berserker damage increases against enemies the more they hit the beserker. It reflects the idea of a character getting madder and madder as they strike back at the one hitting them.

What's more, it gives a mechanical benefit for the the beserker being the one to charge headfirst at the enemy.



While raging, everytime a character damages you, you gain a "rage die" for that creature. Any attacks made against that creature add the rolls of all rage die for that creature to the damage. Rage die go away at the end of your rage.

At level 3 when you gain this feature your rage die are d4. This progresses to d6 at level 6, d8 at level 11, and d10 at level 17.


It adds a bit of bookkeeping, but unless your DM regularly throws 20+ crowds against you it shouldn't be too bad.

As for the "unstoppable killing machine", I'd ditch Intimidating Prescence, and go with a low rent version of "Freedom of Movement" (call it "Fervor over Flesh" or something)




While raging, you automatically succeed on any saving throw to avoid being restrained or grappled.
Difficult terrain has no effect on your speed

[DanyBallon]

Really, it may be flavorful but it isn't thematic.

It's thematic as well. A berserker that goes beyond a normal human can do, only to suffer of severe exhaustion is a typical trope.

[DanyBallon]

I really think a true Frenzy fix needs to go right back to the drawing board and not get attached to what is in the PHB. Because the elephant in the room is that Beserkers have to pay a cost (bonus action and rage attempt) for an effect (extra attack) that fighters get for free at level 11, and eventually surpass at level 17.

For a berserker we m need to ask;

What exactly does a 'beserker' do?
What crunch would recreate this fluff?
Does this step on any other classes toes?


What makes you a Beserker?

All barbarians are driven by anger. At least in combat. Berserkers take that to the next level. When I imagine a berserker, I see a frothing-at-the-mouth warrior who has lost the ability to feel fear or form rational thought. Arrows don't slow them down. They hack at opponents with a primal fury over refined technique. Drop them in the middle of a crowd and they will strike at anyone they can as quickly as possible.

How to actually model this?

The class as is does model some of this nicely. Damage reduction from Rage, and the all out assault of Reckless attack, covey a lack of pain and rational thought, respectively. The immunity to mind control effects shows how they cannot be taken away from their single minded purpose.

They extra attack from Frenzy doesn't really feel like "primal Rage" though. It makes them a bit better at dealing with crowds, but nothing that something like the Fighter or Ranger couldn't do as well. There's also nothing that makes them really feel "unstoppable" beyond the extra speed granted to all barbarians.

Proposed Solution

We make it so that berserker damage increases against enemies the more they hit the beserker. It reflects the idea of a character getting madder and madder as they strike back at the one hitting them.

What's more, it gives a mechanical benefit for the the beserker being the one to charge headfirst at the enemy.



It adds a bit of bookkeeping, but unless your DM regularly throws 20+ crowds against you it shouldn't be too bad.

As for the "unstoppable killing machine", I'd ditch Intimidating Prescence, and go with a low rent version of "Freedom of Movement" (call it "Fervor over Flesh" or something)

When I think of a berserker I see a character that can enter a near mindless frenzy and can push his abilities beyonds what is humanly possible, and either die from doing so, or suffer from extreme exhaustion. As far as I can tell that's pretty much what the archetype is doing.

[Deleted]

It's thematic as well. A berserker that goes beyond a normal human can do, only to suffer of severe exhaustion is a typical trope.

No, sorry, all the "berserkers" I've seen wasn't crippled for days afterwards.

[MeeposFire]

For my berseriers I give them a few enhancements.

1. Frenzy does not gain exhaustion but after the first time starts using up your hit dice that you use to heal. Frenzy is draining and causes you to exhaust your durability. It will not catch you right away but can put you in a bad place. It is also easy to be reckless with it and regret it later but I think that is thematic.

2. When you enter the frenzy you get to make a melee attack as part of the bonus action to enter that rage but only if you choose to frenzy.

3. When not using a frenzy the berserker is still a wild fighter able to make wild attacks with his melee weapon even when not in a frenzy. When not in a frenzy the berserker can make a bonus action attack that deals 1d4 base damage with the fluff that they are hitting with the pommel of their sword or similar idea (this is to make the berserker not feel like it is being screwed over by polearm master.(.

4. Gain proficiency with intimidate when they gain their fear ability. They also get to use that fear ability as part of the bonus action when they enter a frenzied rage.

[DanyBallon]

Something I don't get, people seems to assume that getting into Frenzy cost a bonus action, while in fact it only prevent you from making the bonus attack granted from Frenzy the round you get into Frenzy. I don't see anything that prevent you to use your bonus action for something else, or getting into Frenzy the same round you Rage.

Am I missing something in the text? Or is there an errata that says that getting into Frenzy cost a bonus action?

[TripleD]

When I think of a berserker I see a character that can enter a near mindless frenzy and can push his abilities beyonds what is humanly possible


But that's the problem: he doesn't.

A level 11 beserker with a sword and shield gets three attacks for a minute at +3 bonus damage.

A level 11 champion with a sword and shield gets three attacks for ever, and, with the dueling syle, +2 bonus damage. Heck, with action surge he could get six attacks in a single round. Where's his exhaustion?

Nothing about frenzy as is really screams "pushing beyond what is humanly possible" to me.

[Deleted]

But that's the problem: he doesn't.

A level 11 beserker with a sword and shield gets three attacks for a minute at +3 bonus damage.

A level 11 champion with a sword and shield gets three attacks for ever, and, with the dueling syle, +2 bonus damage. Heck, with action surge he could get six attacks in a single round. Where's his exhaustion?

Nothing about frenzy as is really screams "pushing beyond what is humanly possible" to me.

What more is that a Barbarian can just pick up PAM and boost their damage with their bonus action that way.

[DanyBallon]

But that's the problem: he doesn't.

A level 11 beserker with a sword and shield gets three attacks for a minute at +3 bonus damage.

A level 11 champion with a sword and shield gets three attacks for ever, and, with the dueling syle, +2 bonus damage. Heck, with action surge he could get six attacks in a single round. Where's his exhaustion?

Nothing about frenzy as is really screams "pushing beyond what is humanly possible" to me.

But the berserker, can have advantage to all his attack roll using Reckless Attack, is slightly faster, may roll one more die on critical hit. A given ability from an archetype, should be compared to abilities from other archetypes of the same class. Different classes have different base abilities and fluff.
Frenzy allow a berserker to make more attack than any other kind of barbarians, that's how it represent pushing itself beyond the limit.

[DanyBallon]

What more is that a Barbarian can just pick up PAM and boost their damage with their bonus action that way.

If PAM is your best argument to any discussion, then you should know that PAM is problematic as it's just too good a feat compared to the rest. If there's a fix to be done, it should be to find something more balance to replace PAM.

Remove PAM from the equation, and a lot of combat oriented stuff, peopel find weak, look far more intersting to play

[Deleted]

If PAM is your best argument to any discussion, then you should know that PAM is problematic as it's just too good a feat compared to the rest. If there's a fix to be done, it should be to find something more balance to replace PAM.

Remove PAM from the equation, and a lot of combat oriented stuff, peopel find weak, look far more intersting to play

Yes it is a good feat, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a feat.

And that even with it, you are still behind on damage once your hit level 11...

PAM isn't the problem. The problem is that the designers (and some players) think HP damage is some grand game breaking thing in the hands of martials.

[Steampunkette]

But the berserker, can have advantage to all his attack roll using Reckless Attack, is slightly faster, may roll one more die on critical hit. A given ability from an archetype, should be compared to abilities from other archetypes of the same class. Different classes have different base abilities and fluff.
Frenzy allow a berserker to make more attack than any other kind of barbarians, that's how it represent pushing itself beyond the limit.

It doesn't feel like the limit to have one extra attack per round, is the point. The other barbarian is pushing the limit on resilience where's her exhaustion? The Stormbarion is flinging a 2d6 lightning bolt as a bonus action, where's her exhaustion?

It doesnlt fit, mechanically. And you can fluff and RP your barbarian as exhausted after raging whether there's a mechanical penalty or not.

[Kane0]

Have it cost a Hit Die or two instead. Half your prof bonus in hit die even, if you want it to scale.

[TripleD]

But the berserker, can have advantage to all his attack roll using Reckless Attack, is slightly faster, may roll one more die on critical hit. A given ability from an archetype, should be compared to abilities from other archetypes of the same class. Different classes have different base abilities and fluff.
Frenzy allow a berserker to make more attack than any other kind of barbarians, that's how it represent pushing itself beyond the limit.

I get what you are trying to say, that the extra attack should not be judged in and of itself, but rather as the culmination of all the Barbarian skills up until that point, but there's a problem with that reasoning.

All of those abilities are optional. A barbarian that frenzies yet never engages in reckless attack, moves from their spot, or manages to score a critical hit is punished equally to a beserker who bounces from one end of the map to the other, recklessly attacking into a string of critical hits. Heck, a Barbarian who frenzies, only to have their rage end immediately before actually doing anything, would also gain a level of exhaustion. The penalty doesn't fit with what is actually happening.

In this case I think it is useful to compare between different classes. Look at the Evoker's "Overcharge" ability. It's similar to Frenzy; you push yourself beyond your normal limits and face a penalty. For the evoked though, the penalty is only ever incurred if you actually push yourself beyond normal limits; there's no disconnect between action and effect.

[djreynolds]

Can you make an optimal berserker? Yes.

Is mindless rage great? Yes

Can you just take other feats than PAM, Shield Master, and Dual wielder, GWM? Yes

Is a level of exhaustion too expensive a cost for frenzying? Yes

[DanyBallon]

I get what you are trying to say, that the extra attack should not be judged in and of itself, but rather as the culmination of all the Barbarian skills up until that point, but there's a problem with that reasoning.

All of those abilities are optional. A barbarian that frenzies yet never engages in reckless attack, moves from their spot, or manages to score a critical hit is punished equally to a beserker who bounces from one end of the map to the other, recklessly attacking into a string of critical hits. Heck, a Barbarian who frenzies, only to have their rage end immediately before actually doing anything, would also gain a level of exhaustion. The penalty doesn't fit with what is actually happening.

In this case I think it is useful to compare between different classes. Look at the Evoker's "Overcharge" ability. It's similar to Frenzy; you push yourself beyond your normal limits and face a penalty. For the evoked though, the penalty is only ever incurred if you actually push yourself beyond normal limits; there's no disconnect between action and effect.

The big difference with Overchannel, is that the later is chipping away nearly 10% of the evoker total life force per spell level the second time he use it in a day, and then 15% per spell level if used a third time. As for the berserker, the first use gives him disadvantage to ability checks, the second reduve is movement, and the third gives him disadvantage to attack rolls. It become life threatening only after the 5th time in a day.

As with overchannel, frenzy is a limited ressource that should be used with care. But both allow the user to do exceptionnal deeds if needed.

Also, there's many complains that you can restore only one level of exhaustion after each long rest, but seriously, how often will a party be caught in the heat of combat for more than a few days at the time. Most adventures have travels and downtimes in between their main combat oriented part.

[djreynolds]

Frenzy only gives a bonus action, you might already have.

Its build specific, I'm just whining because exhaustion after 3 levels worth, sucks.

Question? Do you think mindless rage is enough of a compensation?

[DanyBallon]

Frenzy only gives a bonus action, you might already have.

Its build specific, I'm just whining because exhaustion after 3 levels worth, sucks.

Question? Do you think mindless rage is enough of a compensation?

How often a two-handed barbarian will have a bonus action? without feat, not that often. Don't forget that you get a bonus action only if something gives access to one. That additional attack is equivalent to extra attack with a heavy hitter for a minute once or twice a day and this starting at 3rd level, which is better than any other martial class can do. And past level 5 it gives access to a third attack, which no other barbarian can achieve wielding a heavy weapon. It should also be noted, that due to reckless attack, you have advantage to all your attack roll so you may land far more hit than a regular martial character.

As for high exhaustion penalty, it won't happen often as most adventure let you rest plenty, between major fights.

I don't think that if there was just Mindless rage that archetype would have much appeal, but the 14th level Retaliation feature and the fact that Frenzy is a 3rd level feature that can give a situational boost, then the archetype looks just fine to me.

I get that when you read about an ability that gives you an exhaustion level, it may seems a really bad idea, but in actual gameplay, it's not as bad. It's just a matter of managing a limited ressources, while still having the chance to go overboard if an extreme solution call for it. Something spellcasters can't do when they have no more spell slots...

[Deleted]

A Wizard's overchannel is the easiest thing to counter.

1: Cleric, Druid, or Bard healing spells

2: Short rest healing with hit die

3: Healer Feat (1d6+4+#MaxHitDie)

4: Long Rest.

There is no comparison to the Frenzy drawback. Overchannel does HP damage not make you worse at what you do.

If overchannel did something like... Took away prof from your spell casting DC and then did damage... Ok now we are getting close to exhaustion.

But even then, that wouldnt stop a wizard from being effective. They could easily start buffing allies, casting rituals, and usimg their familiar to help... The barbarian can't even work around their limitations. Reckless attack negates disadvantagr BUT it gives advantage on attacks against them, that ain't a 1:1 trade.

[DanyBallon]

A Wizard's overchannel is the easiest thing to counter.

1: Cleric, Druid, or Bard healing spells

2: Short rest healing with hit die

3: Healer Feat (1d6+4+#MaxHitDie)

4: Long Rest.

There is no comparison to the Frenzy drawback. Overchannel does HP damage not make you worse at what you do.

If overchannel did something like... Took away prof from your spell casting DC and then did damage... Ok now we are getting close to exhaustion.

But even then, that wouldnt stop a wizard from being effective. They could easily start buffing allies, casting rituals, and usimg their familiar to help... The barbarian can't even work around their limitations. Reckless attack negates disadvantagr BUT it gives advantage on attacks against them, that ain't a 1:1 trade.

The overchannel feature is something often used in dire situation, not in a white room situation where the party start combat with max HP all your spell slots, etc. So there's a high probability that ressources as potions, healing spells, and HP are already depleted, so casting an overchanneled spell of 5th level cand rip you out of approximately half your total hit point is far more dangerous than the limited restriction you get from Frenzy.

[Deleted]

The overchannel feature is something often used in dire situation, not in a white room situation where the party start combat with max HP all your spell slots, etc. So there's a high probability that ressources as potions, healing spells, and HP are already depleted, so casting an overchanneled spell of 5th level cand rip you out of approximately half your total hit point is far more dangerous than the limited restriction you get from Frenzy.

Right...

Yeah no.

Have you not played 5e? Healing is so dang easy. Like... Unless the DM says "low healing" you don't need to worry about healing.

Going by the book, you will have a drain on your resources, but it won't be enough to totally disregard all prospects of healing lol.

That's hilariously silly.

Sure, level 1 is "gritty" but each level past 1 gets exponentially less gritty.


Edit====


And it doesn't change the fact that Overchannel doesnt make you worse at casting or being a caster. It just does HP damage. It is not an apt comparison for a feature that all arround makes you a worse barbarian.

[DanyBallon]

Right...

Yeah no.

Have you not played 5e? Healing is so dang easy. Like... Unless the DM says "low healing" you don't need to worry about healing.

Going by the book, you will have a drain on your resources, but it won't be enough to totally disregard all prospects of healing lol.

That's hilariously silly.

Sure, level 1 is "gritty" but each level past 1 gets exponentially less gritty.


Edit====


And it doesn't change the fact that Overchannel doesnt make you worse at casting or being a caster. It just does HP damage. It is not an apt comparison for a feature that all arround makes you a worse barbarian.

I'm feeling that you game style is much more different than miine, that I first tought... You seems to see exhaustion as something that is very hard to remove, while, most adventures will let your rest for many day between major fight, unless your going nova every day. A typical adventure consist of traval, a few days eploring a dungeon, with one or two big fight then traveling back, spending a few days of downtime before heading out on another dungeonrun. Very few times, will you have to fight boss level fight days after days that will need you to exhaust yourself to death.

I find that losing HP is much worse than having disadvantage to ability checks, reduce movement, or attack rolls, especially in a class that is designed to offsets these effects. Losing nearly half your HP on a single attack when you have the lowest HP total of the group is like asking to end up dead on round two and that's if your not rolling bad and getting killed outright.

[N810]

Yes I play a frenzy barbarian, and only under dire circumstance should you frenzy more that twice a day.
I find my DM's fix of just removing all exhaustion levels on a long rest a good enough fix.
I also find that using reckless attack with frenzy tends to give me 2 or 3 crits in the big battles,
where I would use frenzy, and since I'm a half-ork this means lots of extra dice for my great ax.
Also retaliatory attack works great with sentinel when you are at the front lines with another melee class.

[Deleted]

I'm feeling that you game style is much more different than miine, that I first tought... You seems to see exhaustion as something that is very hard to remove, while, most adventures will let your rest for many day between major fight, unless your going nova every day. A typical adventure consist of traval, a few days eploring a dungeon, with one or two big fight then traveling back, spending a few days of downtime before heading out on another dungeonrun. Very few times, will you have to fight boss level fight days after days that will need you to exhaust yourself to death.

I find that losing HP is much worse than having disadvantage to ability checks, reduce movement, or attack rolls, especially in a class that is designed to offsets these effects. Losing nearly half your HP on a single attack when you have the lowest HP total of the group is like asking to end up dead on round two and that's if your not rolling bad and getting killed outright.

Its the way the game is designed and expects to be ran.

Deviating from what the game assumes (enough short rests and resources and specific resource expenditure) is on you and not the game.

HP damage just isn't an issue past level 1 or 2.

Unless the DM is deviating and making it an issue, but then they are going away from what the game assumes and we can't possibly take I to account everything a DM **might** do, we have to use the system as presented.

Even with a deviation from the base rules, Overchannel still isn't a good comparison as Overchannel doesnt make you a worse wizard. You get hurt, but you can still cast just as well. Frenzy hobbles your character for days if you use it twice. Overchannel deals 2d12 neurotic damage if you use it twice.

Yeah... Not even close.

[DanyBallon]

Its the way the game is designed and expects to be ran.

Deviating from what the game assumes (enough short rests and resources and specific resource expenditure) is on you and not the game.

HP damage just isn't an issue past level 1 or 2.

Unless the DM is deviating and making it an issue, but then they are going away from what the game assumes and we can't possibly take I to account everything a DM **might** do, we have to use the system as presented.

Even with a deviation from the base rules, Overchannel still isn't a good comparison as Overchannel doesnt make you a worse wizard. You get hurt, but you can still cast just as well. Frenzy hobbles your character for days if you use it twice. Overchannel deals 2d12 neurotic damage if you use it twice.

Yeah... Not even close.

You're right, overchannel doesn't make you a worse wizard, it makes you a dead wizard...

it does 2d12 (12 avg) damage per spell level. And you're not going to use overchannel a second time and losing HP just to maximise damage on a 1st level spell, you'll often use it for a 3rd level or better spell wich means between 36 and 60 avg damage. On a wizard that have somewhere between 60 to 70 hp avg at 14th level, that's a lot of HP to lose in one shot.

Again being worse at ability checks and having your speed reduced, is not as bad as you think, especially since as designed, the game impliesthat you'll have more than one day of rest between adventures...

[Steampunkette]

How often a two-handed barbarian will have a bonus action? without feat, not that often. Don't forget that you get a bonus action only if something gives access to one. That additional attack is equivalent to extra attack with a heavy hitter for a minute once or twice a day and this starting at 3rd level, which is better than any other martial class can do. And past level 5 it gives access to a third attack, which no other barbarian can achieve wielding a heavy weapon. It should also be noted, that due to reckless attack, you have advantage to all your attack roll so you may land far more hit than a regular martial character.

As for high exhaustion penalty, it won't happen often as most adventure let you rest plenty, between major fights.

I don't think that if there was just Mindless rage that archetype would have much appeal, but the 14th level Retaliation feature and the fact that Frenzy is a 3rd level feature that can give a situational boost, then the archetype looks just fine to me.

I get that when you read about an ability that gives you an exhaustion level, it may seems a really bad idea, but in actual gameplay, it's not as bad. It's just a matter of managing a limited ressources, while still having the chance to go overboard if an extreme solution call for it. Something spellcasters can't do when they have no more spell slots...

A Hunter Ranger at level 5 can take 3 attacks with a two-handed weapon without raging.

Or four attacks if she dual-wields.

Or three attacks after casting Hunter's Mark and then four attacks in subsequent rounds.

All day. Every day. No exhaustion. They just need two targets near each other.

No. It's not "Just Resources". It's bad design.

[N810]

Out of sheer curiosity,
am I the only one here who has actually played the class ???
(currently lvl 16)

Ps. I suspect non-answers are admissions of pure theory crafting over experience.

[Steampunkette]

Yes. I have. I felt it was too limiting to expect a Barbarian to use their Level 3 kit-defining ability once per day against the big bad.

And on any days I -didn't- limit myself to a single use, I felt significantly, and exponentially, hampered compared to other characters.

[DanyBallon]

A Hunter Ranger at level 5 can take 3 attacks with a two-handed weapon without raging.

Or four attacks if she dual-wields.

Or three attacks after casting Hunter's Mark and then four attacks in subsequent rounds.

All day. Every day. No exhaustion. They just need two targets near each other.

No. It's not "Just Resources". It's bad design.

A ranger have worst chance to land hit, and Horde Breaker is situationnal as you won't have 2 enemies within 5ft of each other every time. And two weapon fighting doesn't do as much damage as a two-hander. But I give you a point, ou manage to find 1 case where a martial can get more attacks earlier as the Berserker do.

[DanyBallon]

I do, and didn't have any issue with it. But I haven't played past level 8.

[Steampunkette]

A ranger have worst chance to land hit, and Horde Breaker is situationnal as you won't have 2 enemies within 5ft of each other every time. And two weapon fighting doesn't do as much damage as a two-hander. But I give you a point, ou manage to find 1 case where a martial can get more attacks earlier as the Berserker do.

The Ranger can throw Hunter's Mark out and do 2d6+stat with each hand. That's as much as the Barbarian, minus 2 points of Rage bonus and 4 attacks instead of 3.

Or the Ranger can use a Greatsword and deal 2d6+stat + 1d6 Hunter's Mark on each attack (2 on round 1, 3 on subsequent rounds).

They won't have advantage to attack, but also won't grant advantage to hit them.

And yeah. The Ranger isn't gonna have 2 enemies right next to each other -all- the time. Just most of the time. The Berserk won't always have someone standing next to them to drop their bonus action attack on if they drop their main target in two hits. (Four hits, really, since they've gotta spend that first bonus action raging).

But if the Ranger gets immobilized away from combat for 1 turn, charmed, stunned, or otherwise kept from swinging her swords, she won't be exhausted.

Oh, unless it's the Ranger's Favored Enemies. Then the Ranger comes ahead on damage (Revised Ranger is Adventurer's League accepted, after all)

[djreynolds]

I think my fix is fair, while raging... you just don't suffer any exhaustion. It comes back when you are done.

I have played 1 til 8th. Mindless rage is very good. Much better than other barbarian's 6th level perks.

I just maxed out strength. Next was to max out con.

It's on the bottom rung of archetypes.

I can only assume retaliation is nice, never got that far.

[DanyBallon]

I think my fix is fair, while raging... you just don't suffer any exhaustion. It comes back when you are done.

I have played 1 til 8th. Mindless rage is very good. Much better than other barbarian's 6th level perks.

I just maxed out strength. Next was to max out con.

It's on the bottom rung of archetypes.

I can only assume retaliation is nice, never got that far.

Berserker is definately on the bottom rung of all archetypes, but I don't have a problem with this. The archetype is thematic, and to be honnest, if you want a decent bell curve, you need some options that are sub-par and others that are definately better. Otherwise you'll end up with 4e :smalltongue: and on the other hand, if every new products tend toward the better part, you just move the bell curve forward, and it's in part what led to 3.P powercreep. And I don't think it's suitable either :smallsmile:

[LordVonDerp]

Just remove exhaustion and the Frenzy is fixed.
Seconded, even a single level of exhaustion is disastrous for skill checks.




If you must have some sort of punishment for using signature class features, have them lose hit dice.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[LordVonDerp]

The overchannel feature is something often used in dire situation, not in a white room situation where the party start combat with max HP all your spell slots, etc. So there's a high probability that ressources as potions, healing spells, and HP are already depleted, so casting an overchanneled spell of 5th level cand rip you out of approximately half your total hit point is far more dangerous than the limited restriction you get from Frenzy.
What? You lead with overchannel to weaken enemies, and it's free the first time anyway.

[DanyBallon]

What? You lead with overchannel to weaken enemies, and it's free the first time anyway.

So your evoker burn is free overchannel in the first fight of the day?

I don't know about how it goes at your table, but when we get into a boss level fight, we don't have the luxury to rest right before, it often happen in succession to a previous fight.

It may not be everyone playstyle, but we try as much as possible to shy away from the CRPG feel, where you can rest and save prior to open the boss door. There's a versimilitude rules at our table that there should be 3-4 hours between short rest. So you can't rest, get into a fight that use much more ressources than anticipated, rest again, then follow with your day as if nothing happened. If the fight was a too big toll, we then fall back and try to survive our way out until we can reach a safe location to lick our wounds and retry on the next day.

[LordVonDerp]

I think my fix is fair, while raging... you just don't suffer any exhaustion. It comes back when you are done.


The problem is that exhaustion doesn't really affect combat until you have 2 or 3 levels of it, but it makes you useless out of combat with only one.

[Specter]

lol Berserker is not the 'bottom rung' of barbarian archetypes. Even if you only save Frenzy for the last fight, at level 6+ you're on the same page as any Totem barb. Why? Mindless Rage. Any totem barbarian can easily be the enemy caster's plaything, with Resilient (WIS) being the only thing that can protect your group (and if you're taking Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master and all the rest you'll have some trouble taking that). Berserkers can be toned down by mental effects, but not put against the party or made to flee the battle entirely.

Meanwhile, Totem folks get to carry extra weight, look further in the distance or track/sneak faster. And people still complain about Remarkable Athlete.

[MadBear]

So your evoker burn is free overchannel in the first fight of the day?

I don't know about how it goes at your table, but when we get into a boss level fight, we don't have the luxury to rest right before, it often happen in succession to a previous fight.

It may not be everyone playstyle, but we try as much as possible to shy away from the CRPG feel, where you can rest and save prior to open the boss door. There's a versimilitude rules at our table that there should be 3-4 hours between short rest. So you can't rest, get into a fight that use much more ressources than anticipated, rest again, then follow with your day as if nothing happened. If the fight was a too big toll, we then fall back and try to survive our way out until we can reach a safe location to lick our wounds and retry on the next day.

The problem as I see it, is that an evoker could feel safe in using overchannel early in the day, and relying on healing later.

Not every time mind you. But it is at least possible that they could be healed in-between the fights (maybe through spells, potions, or rests).

the beserker's ability results in far more debilitating punishment for its use even once (it doesn't get a free use).

You can't rest it's issue away, you can't heal it away, and you can't potion it away (at least with easily obtained items).

[Lombra]

It's a long and not so great formatted post that digresses from the objective of the OP but since people talk about it I'll throw in my opinion. There probably are typos but I'm exhausted (pun intended) and I'll get a long rest soon so do your best in trying to understand it.

Let's look at the class and the archetype up to level 14, because from level 15 your rage ends only when you want or if you fall unconcious (you are a barbarian... it's not going to happen very often).

Let's say the character is a variant human with great weapon master, a solid choice in my opinion.
If you want to play the berserker it means that you want to be in the face of the enemies and fill them with attacks until they stop breathing.

Level 3:
number of rages/long rest: 3
You get frenzy now;
this means that during a very hard or deadly encounter you can attack two times with a greatsword/greataxe/maul at advantage with (assuming 16 STR) +15 to the damage and a -5 to the hit roll.
Most enemies at that level won't be able to whitstand even a single round of yours, on top of that you can dash and attack in the same round which gives you great mobility.

You have to use frenzy wisely, YOU are NOT the character that you are playing, probably a berserker would play a berserker recklessly, but since your intelligence score is greater than 8 you should tink about things before doing them, you don't have to frenzy all the time to show off your big muscles to the other party members, it's an important resource that should be used if you or an ally are very close to die.

The first exhaustion level isn't even that bad, you are not the skill monkey and probably someone has a crowbar to open that locked door for you.

At 4th level you get an ASI that you are probably going to put in strength, and the same things of above apply.

At 5th level you get extra attack and fast movement: a huge damage boost and a mobility boost to compensate in case you ever reach the second level of exhaustion, again you have to frenzy with moderation, you are still a killing machine even without that bonus attack.

At 6th level you get one more rage/LR and immunity to charm and fear while raging (take that third level of exhaustion!).
At this point enemies start getting tough and more fights are made between rests, it's a bless for the party that you can't turn yourself and punch the caster because some monsters charmed you. (This is going to be permanent from 15th level, think about it)

At 7th level you get advantage on initiative checks and basically half of the alert feat.
Going first is a very good way to start since you can stop the enemies before they come too close to the other party members.

8th: another ASI, more STR? Why not?
Let's remember that by now you are doing 4d6+10 damage per turn (not taking in account magical items which you will probably have), and if you want to go nova you have the option to make 6d6+51 at advantage with -5 penalty to hit.

9th: Brutal Critical and +3 rage bonus damage, both of those features greatly benefit from one extra attack/turn

10th: Intimidating Presence could get you rid of an enemy during the battle and if you frenzy you can still attack while still frightening that guy. It's not great because it scales with charisma, but low-wis creatures are common even at these levels so it's worth a try.

11th: Relentless Rage, not dying when you should is a very nice perk, how does it benefit specifically a berserker? Simple: if you are less in danger of losing your life you can save up more on frenzies, AND you can keep frenzying even if you would fall unconcious, barbarians are all about timing that rage right and berserkers sure like an extra turn or two of axe-swinging.

12th: one more rage/LR; ASI: +CON? a feat? Maybe tough?

Your damage hasn't increased since level 8, but now you are very very likely to have a magic weapon that will increase it, and frenzy benefits from every extra point of damage and accuracy, always.

13th: more Brutal Critical! Works great with frenzy. More attacks = more crit chance.

14th: Retaliation synergizes so well with the whole class that it makes me want to cry of joy, it makes Reckless Attack even cooler!

You are now likely to make 4 attacks/turn while frenzying which is crazy: 8d6 of weapon damage + 40 GWM bonus damage + 20 STR damage + 18 rage bonus damage + whatever magic damage; at advantage; with a (-5 + magic bonus) malus to hit the enemy.

And at 15th level it's basically free!

A couple tips: you shouldn't even reach the 3rd level of exhaustion because of frenzy, if you do make sure that you are taking a long rest after the fight. Levels 1 and two are manageable but you probably want to frenzy just 1/long rest, and the time that you frenzy will be worth the wait.
You can still be useful with 3 levels of exhaustion, but the 4th takes away your core characteristic (HP) which somehow gets help from Relentless Rage, but I wouldn't count on that; and the 5th makes you useless (even if Retaliation can do something about it) unless you are fighting in the middle of a 15×15 feet room. The 6th level is not something that you don't want to experience unless you have a very good cleric in the party.

[djreynolds]

Lombra, that was an excellent defense.

This is a good post, mindless rage is fantastic. No doubt, I have stressed before it's an auto pass versus anything, like a dragon.

But why even have frenzy? Honestly, just make it you get bloodied and you have to frenzy .

My only suggestion is while you rage, your exhaustion is suspended like as if you were charmed... for that 1 minute.

At 14th level, it feels like a class that takes and gives it out.

It's just frenzy sucks, and it's not even the whole 10 rounds, it's 9 rounds actually. I'd rather it was just extra damage. 9 BA for 1 level of exhaustion.

Or at least give me a frickin saving throw to avoid it.
Or you cannot benefit from a short rest like a curse.
Or lessor restoration can fix it.

Welll.... at least... you aren't forced to frenzy.

[Vogonjeltz]

There is no comparison to the Frenzy drawback. Overchannel does HP damage not make you worse at what you do.

Let's not overdramatize the situation, Frenzy makes you much much better at what you do for a mild (and temporary) set back. It even lets you get much much better several times in a day if absolutely necessary, but using it, exactly like Overchannel, requires exercising a modicum of caution.

For later levels typical parties will have access to exhaustion removal mechanics at least once a day, if not more, allowing multiple uses of Frenzy for no net negative.
Imagine, a Hasted, Frenzied Berserker using Reckless Attack gets 4 attacks per round at level 5 all with advantage. That's extremely potent, and they can do it with no feats required at all.


How often a two-handed barbarian will have a bonus action? without feat, not that often. Don't forget that you get a bonus action only if something gives access to one. That additional attack is equivalent to extra attack with a heavy hitter for a minute once or twice a day and this starting at 3rd level, which is better than any other martial class can do. And past level 5 it gives access to a third attack, which no other barbarian can achieve wielding a heavy weapon. It should also be noted, that due to reckless attack, you have advantage to all your attack roll so you may land far more hit than a regular martial character.

Exactly. Bonus actions are very expensive to acquire taking a feat means an opportunity cost of another, better feat, or forgoing the +2 ASI that Barbarians can't really afford to lose if they want to get the most out of their attack (str) and defense (dex+con).

[LordVonDerp]

You're right, overchannel doesn't make you a worse wizard, it makes you a dead wizard...

it does 2d12 (12 avg) damage per spell level. And you're not going to use overchannel a second time and losing HP just to maximise damage on a 1st level spell, you'll often use it for a 3rd level or better spell wich means between 36 and 60 avg damage. On a wizard that have somewhere between 60 to 70 hp avg at 14th level, that's a lot of HP to lose in one shot.
Couple of things
1) one free overchannel per day
2) a typical level 14 wizard has 86-100 HP
3) if you're using overchannel, you should be doing more than 60 damage and you should be doing it to many things.



Again being worse at ability checks and having your speed reduced, is not as bad as you think, especially since as designed, the game impliesthat you'll have more than one day of rest between adventures...
Maybe, but that doesn't fix the problem of having to go from a big combat where you needed frenzy straight into a skill/puzzle area where you have disadvantage on everything.

[Deleted]

Let's not overdramatize the situation, Frenzy makes you much much better at what you do for a mild (and temporary) set back. It even lets you get much much better several times in a day if absolutely necessary, but using it, exactly like Overchannel, requires exercising a modicum of caution.


Didn't you just say you didn't want to be overdramatic? How about not being so dismissive and trying to act like exhaustion isn't a problem.

Bull crap.

Taking away key features that make you what you are for days at a time is not a mild set back.

A long rest removes 1 level of exhaustion.

So you use frenzy twice in one day, that's two days until you are normal. Say you want to use it twice a day each day?

Each day you are reducing the effect by 1 but gaining two levels.

You can't use this feature twice a day or you will die by FRIDAY.

Monday: 2 levels of exhaustion
Tuesday: 1 + 2 Levels of Exhaustion (3)
Wednesday: 3 - 1 + 2 = 4 Levels of Exhaustion
Thursday: 4 - 1 + 2 = 5 Levels of Exhaustion
Friday: 5 - 1 + 2 = 6 Levels of Exhaustion.
Saturday: Viewing
Sunday: Viking Funeral

The only spell that reduces exhaustion is Greater Restoration... Which is a level 5 spell which is 9th level and comes from an entirely different class.


So just using this feature twice a day kills you by friday.

Use overchannel (Which is a level 14 feature btw) once a day and nothing bad happens. Use it twice a day and you take a 2d12 (13 damage).

9 +
You heal that 13 damage at the end of a long rest.

With a +3 Con (simple for level 14) you will have about 93 (93.5) Hit Points. 13 damage is about 14% of your health... For using your feature twice.

Sorry but anyone that says Overchannel is anything close to being as punishing as Frenzy is absolutely off their rocker.

[LordVonDerp]

So your evoker burn is free overchannel in the first fight of the day?
No, which is probably why I said nothing of the sort. You lead with it in a big fight where you can hit lots of enemies.



I don't know about how it goes at your table, but when we get into a boss level fight, we don't have the luxury to rest right before, it often happen in succession to a previous fight.
You have two fights in a row? And one of them is a boss fight?



It may not be everyone playstyle, but we try as much as possible to shy away from the CRPG feel, where you can rest and save prior to open the boss door. if someone is holed up in a room because their base is being attacked, that's not likely to change after a rest. It also greatly limits the boss fight design.



There's a versimilitude rules at our table that there should be 3-4 hours between short rest.
That has nothing to do with verisimilitude.


So you can't rest, get into a fight that use much more ressources than anticipated, rest again, then follow with your day as if nothing happened.
A short rest wouldn't allow for that anyway.



If the fight was a too big toll, we then fall back and try to survive our way out until we can reach a safe location to lick our wounds and retry on the next day.
:thog:

[Kane0]

Frenzy costs half prof bonus (round down) in Hit Die.
If Bear Totem is the tank barbarian, you are the damage barbarian. You sacrifice some of that spare HP to dish out more damage.

Exhaustion bites. A six rank death spiral, recovering one on a long rest and otherwise not treatable until you get up to high level cleric spells. I cant think of any other classes that cops something that nasty, all for a bonus action attack.
Sure it'd be more worth it if feats werent involved, but even then its a hard sell.

[DanyBallon]

You have two fights in a row? And one of them is a boss fight?


Yeah, it happens often. Not every adventure are linear and predictable, with a deadly encounter at the very end of hallway.
That's not the case for everyone else? :smallwink:

As for minimum time between rest, we decide to have it because we've seen, and experienced, too many situation where a group would begin the day, or have a short rest, get in a fight that last about 5-10 minutes in game time, then want to rest all over again. To us it just didn't make sense, so we decide that ther should be a minimum of 3-4 hours between rest. This also changed the mindset and we have fewer player going nova right off the bat. :smallbiggrin:

P.S. I should have said "deadly encounter" as it is more appropriate than "boss fight" :smallbiggrin:

[DanyBallon]

Didn't you just say you didn't want to be overdramatic? How about not being so dismissive and trying to act like exhaustion isn't a problem.

Bull crap.

Taking away key features that make you what you are for days at a time is not a mild set back.

A long rest removes 1 level of exhaustion.

So you use frenzy twice in one day, that's two days until you are normal. Say you want to use it twice a day each day?

Each day you are reducing the effect by 1 but gaining two levels.

You can't use this feature twice a day or you will die by FRIDAY.

Monday: 2 levels of exhaustion
Tuesday: 1 + 2 Levels of Exhaustion (3)
Wednesday: 3 - 1 + 2 = 4 Levels of Exhaustion
Thursday: 4 - 1 + 2 = 5 Levels of Exhaustion
Friday: 5 - 1 + 2 = 6 Levels of Exhaustion.
Saturday: Viewing
Sunday: Viking Funeral

The only spell that reduces exhaustion is Greater Restoration... Which is a level 5 spell which is 9th level and comes from an entirely different class.


So just using this feature twice a day kills you by friday.

Typical adventuring is not 9 to 5 work monday to friday, it's more along those line:

Day 1-2: travel to nearest dungeon, have a few random encounter along the way
Day 3: 6-8 medium encounters, may need to use Frenzy once
Day 4: encounters are getting harder, Frenzy twice
Day 5: Still suffering from 1 exhaustion level, clear the rest of the dungeon, get in the boss fight, need to frenzy three time.
Day 6-7: Travel back to town (on day 6, suffer from 3 level of exhaustion, on day 7; 2 level) Not at his best during the possible random encounter.
Day 8-10: Enjoy some well earned downtime activities and clear out all remaining exhaustion level! You're ready to head back on another adventure :smallbiggrin:


Use overchannel (Which is a level 14 feature btw) once a day and nothing bad happens. Use it twice a day and you take a 2d12 (13 damage).

9 +
You heal that 13 damage at the end of a long rest.

With a +3 Con (simple for level 14) you will have about 93 (93.5) Hit Points. 13 damage is about 14% of your health... For using your feature twice.

Sorry but anyone that says Overchannel is anything close to being as punishing as Frenzy is absolutely off their rocker.

It's 2d12 per spell level, so unless you use overchannel to maximize 1st level spells, you will end up with much more damage.
And remembber that healing needed to heal you, won't be available to heal the tanks in front that are keeping the enemies from reaching you.
And what makes you believe that you will always use overchannel at full HP?


And one last thing, you are comparing the effectiveness of a 14th level feature (Overchannel) to a 3rd level feature (Frenzy).
Frenzy let you break the establish balance of lower level by letting you get more attack before almost everyone else, and also have an incredible synergy with baseline barbarian feature. And by 15th, which is about the same power level of Overchannel, a berserker can frenzy all day long, as long as he don't end his rage, for the mere cost of an exhaustion level!
Which one is the worse then? The one that chip away between 15-75% of your total HP the second time you use it (even more if you use it a thrid time), or the one that get one or two exhaustion level to be able to get 3 attacks (possibly 4 with retaliation) with a two-hander at advantage on its attack roll?

[LordVonDerp]

Meanwhile, Totem folks get to carry extra weight, look further in the distance or track/sneak faster. And people still complain about Remarkable Athlete.

You grossly underestimate the usefulness of a 600 lb carry weight.

[LordVonDerp]

Yeah, it happens often.

Do the fights at least feel drastically different?



Not every adventure are linear and predictable, with a deadly encounter at the very end of hallway.
Exactly, the best way to do this is to avoid having similar feeling encounters close together.



That's not the case for everyone else? :smallwink:





As for minimum time between rest, we decide to have it because we've seen, and experienced, too many situation where a group would begin the day, or have a short rest, get in a fight that last about 5-10 minutes in game time, then want to rest all over again.
That is a really long fight.



To us it just didn't make sense, so we decide that ther should be a minimum of 3-4 hours between rest. This also changed the mindset and we have fewer player going nova right off the bat. :smallbiggrin:
It also means the DM has to design adventuring days that take 8+ hours. Which leads to a lot of weird stuff



P.S. I should have said "deadly encounter" as it is more appropriate than "boss fight" :smallbiggrin:

Still greatly limits what the DM can create.

[DanyBallon]

It also means the DM has to design adventuring days that take 8+ hours. Which leads to a lot of weird stuff


Exploring, puzzle solving, trap finding and disabling takes most of that time.

[Grondar]

I think that main point of this discussion is that as a keystone ability you are telling your Frenzy Barb that they must judiciously use that ability or suffer crippling penalties. This is vastly different from any other keystone ability which can be used every encounter. Just poor design.

[DanyBallon]

I think that main point of this discussion is that as a keystone ability you are telling your Frenzy Barb that they must judiciously use that ability or suffer crippling penalties. This is vastly different from any other keystone ability which can be used every encounter. Just poor design.

Not really, as it is one of the few feature that have the most synergy by with other features from the archetype and base class. It may not be always on, but it's definitely thematic and still is useful even if not always on.

Could it be better? Yes!

Does it mean it's bad/poor desgin? absolutely not!

[N810]

Didn't you just say you didn't want to be overdramatic? How about not being so dismissive and trying to act like exhaustion isn't a problem.

Bull crap.

Taking away key features that make you what you are for days at a time is not a mild set back.

A long rest removes 1 level of exhaustion.

So you use frenzy twice in one day, that's two days until you are normal. Say you want to use it twice a day each day?

Each day you are reducing the effect by 1 but gaining two levels.

You can't use this feature twice a day or you will die by FRIDAY.

Monday: 2 levels of exhaustion
Tuesday: 1 + 2 Levels of Exhaustion (3)
Wednesday: 3 - 1 + 2 = 4 Levels of Exhaustion
Thursday: 4 - 1 + 2 = 5 Levels of Exhaustion
Friday: 5 - 1 + 2 = 6 Levels of Exhaustion.
Saturday: Viewing
Sunday: Viking Funeral

The only spell that reduces exhaustion is Greater Restoration... Which is a level 5 spell which is 9th level and comes from an entirely different class.


So just using this feature twice a day kills you by friday.

Use overchannel (Which is a level 14 feature btw) once a day and nothing bad happens. Use it twice a day and you take a 2d12 (13 damage).

9 +
You heal that 13 damage at the end of a long rest.

With a +3 Con (simple for level 14) you will have about 93 (93.5) Hit Points. 13 damage is about 14% of your health... For using your feature twice.

Sorry but anyone that says Overchannel is anything close to being as punishing as Frenzy is absolutely off their rocker.

and that goes back to my fix of removing all levels of exhaustion on a long rest.

[LordVonDerp]

Exploring, puzzle solving, trap finding and disabling takes most of that time.
Well, sure, but that still requires a massive dungeon and a lot of waiting around. It's just weird to have puzzle encounters take hours.

[DanyBallon]

Well, sure, but that still requires a massive dungeon and a lot of waiting around. It's just weird to have puzzle encounters take hours.

Isn't it even weirder having 6-8 encounters only take a few hours in a day? At this rate, adventurer are either just slakers :smalltongue: or otherwise should be able to face much more challenge, don't you think?

[Steampunkette]

6-8 sword fights in a day is probably more than any person should ever find themself in...

And yes. It -is- poor mechanical design to require one character type to be so beholden to the Fluff that the designers created that a Mechanical Disadvantage limits continued use of a character -defining- ability.

Your Warlock has Asmodeus as his Patron who constantly demands tributes of souls and/or requires you to perform myriad side-quests to further his goals? COOL! My Warlock doesn't have a patron In-Character and is, instead, just a mechanical chassis I use for a Psychic Warrior archetype. The Fluff doesn't matter.

My Frenzy Barbarian and my Totem Barb aren't -actually- barbarians: They're Drug Users. They work with the party's Alchemist to use a Hyde-style formula that turns them into rampaging monsters! They drink the same vial and it interacts with them differently 'cause of their personal demons.

And by the way no matter what the "Faster" Hyde-Transformation winds up exhausted 'cause the mechanics demand it rather than the Fluff being built on it. Now the Fluff -MUST- follow the Mechanics to make sense.

The fact that no other character option has as severe a penalty for using their character-defining ability makes it Bad Design. The fact that it's based on Fluff that significantly limits player refluffing for concept makes it worse.

I feel like the Hit Die trading method is the best. And I'll be using it in all future games so someone who loves the idea but hates the bad design might actually play a Frenzy Barbarian after the last debacle.

[DanyBallon]

6-8 sword fights in a day is probably more than any person should ever find themself in...

And yes. It -is- poor mechanical design to require one character type to be so beholden to the Fluff that the designers created that a Mechanical Disadvantage limits continued use of a character -defining- ability.

Your Warlock has Asmodeus as his Patron who constantly demands tributes of souls and/or requires you to perform myriad side-quests to further his goals? COOL! My Warlock doesn't have a patron In-Character and is, instead, just a mechanical chassis I use for a Psychic Warrior archetype. The Fluff doesn't matter.

My Frenzy Barbarian and my Totem Barb aren't -actually- barbarians: They're Drug Users. They work with the party's Alchemist to use a Hyde-style formula that turns them into rampaging monsters! They drink the same vial and it interacts with them differently 'cause of their personal demons.

And by the way no matter what the "Faster" Hyde-Transformation winds up exhausted 'cause the mechanics demand it rather than the Fluff being built on it. Now the Fluff -MUST- follow the Mechanics to make sense.

The fact that no other character option has as severe a penalty for using their character-defining ability makes it Bad Design. The fact that it's based on Fluff that significantly limits player refluffing for concept makes it worse.

I feel like the Hit Die trading method is the best. And I'll be using it in all future games so someone who loves the idea but hates the bad design might actually play a Frenzy Barbarian after the last debacle.

The exhaustion penalty isn't just for fluff. It fits thematically in addition to a penalty for a feature that allow a character to go beyond what it available to other classes at lower level. Also, I'm repeating myself, Frenzy it's one of the few abilities that ties so much to the other abilities the archetype and the base class provide, most of them attenuating the penalty from exhaustion.

[Steampunkette]

The exhaustion penalty isn't just for fluff. It fits thematically in addition to a penalty for a feature that allow a character to go beyond what it available to other classes at lower level. Also, I'm repeating myself, Frenzy it's one of the few abilities that ties so much to the other abilities the archetype and the base class provide, most of them attenuating the penalty from exhaustion.

Only it ABSOLUTELY ISN'T going beyond anything.

The Hunter Ranger can make 3 attacks at level 3. 4 at level 5. All day, every day.

And yeah. The other class abilities reduce the amount of damage Exhaustion does to the Barbarian's ability to fight by essentially turning her into a character with NO CLASS ABILITIES as you get progressively more exhausted who grants ADVANTAGE to anyone who wants to hit her.

The fact that those abilities mitigate the penalty by decaying does not make it better. It makes it worse. If you want to look at it -that- way you're not gaining exhaustion: You're Losing Access to the rest of your core class abilities as you use your main, path-defining, feature. God forbid you should also wind up in -situations- that grant exhaustion. It's rough for everyone and -crippling- for you.

And it's not like the exhaustion mechanics -weaken- when you're higher level and other classes get access to more and more attacks in a round through spells or class abilities. That penalty sticks with you the whole way.

Meanwhile the Bear totem is, at level 3, resisting half of ALL DAMAGE but Psychic while raging. That's something no other character can do until much, MUCH, higher level. Heck, the Wizard can't even manage B/S/P resistance without spending their action -every turn- until level 7 with a 4th level spell slot and concentration. Where's the Bear Totem's Exhaustion?

Oh. Right. It doesn't get it. Because Thematics. Which no matter how you try to semantically alter it mean the same thing as "Fluff".

[Iamcreative]

Only it ABSOLUTELY ISN'T going beyond anything.

The Hunter Ranger can make 3 attacks at level 3. 4 at level 5. All day, every day.

And yeah. The other class abilities reduce the amount of damage Exhaustion does to the Barbarian's ability to fight by essentially turning her into a character with NO CLASS ABILITIES as you get progressively more exhausted who grants ADVANTAGE to anyone who wants to hit her.

The fact that those abilities mitigate the penalty by decaying does not make it better. It makes it worse. If you want to look at it -that- way you're not gaining exhaustion: You're Losing Access to the rest of your core class abilities as you use your main, path-defining, feature. God forbid you should also wind up in -situations- that grant exhaustion. It's rough for everyone and -crippling- for you.

And it's not like the exhaustion mechanics -weaken- when you're higher level and other classes get access to more and more attacks in a round through spells or class abilities. That penalty sticks with you the whole way.

Meanwhile the Bear totem is, at level 3, resisting half of ALL DAMAGE but Psychic while raging. That's something no other character can do until much, MUCH, higher level. Heck, the Wizard can't even manage B/S/P resistance without spending their action -every turn- until level 7 with a 4th level spell slot and concentration. Where's the Bear Totem's Exhaustion?

Oh. Right. It doesn't get it. Because Thematics. Which no matter how you try to semantically alter it mean the same thing as "Fluff".

Right but the hunter ranger has to make sacrifices to get those 3 attacks. Mainly, they have to be in melee, dual wielding, and attack 2 different things. Which then puts you in between 2 enemies (since you had to split your damage, and didnt do alot theyre probably still alive) and squishier than the barb (no damage reduction, or shield). So its entirly possible that the outcome is either- exhuasted barbarian or dead ranger.
Not to say I wouldnt change frenzy (probably by supressing the exhuastion while raging), but its not an entirly unreasonable penalty.


Edit: also that's the major problem with comparing just straight numbers like that the whole 'whiteroom' effect. And as to your other points I do think while the penalty doesnt weaken, you gain more access to midigate it (like raging for longer) so its still not super crazy.

[Steampunkette]

Right but the hunter ranger has to make sacrifices to get those 3 attacks. Mainly, they have to be in melee, dual wielding, and attack 2 different things. Which then puts you in between 2 enemies (since you had to split your damage, and didnt do alot theyre probably still alive) and squishier than the barb (no damage reduction, or shield). So its entirly possible that the outcome is either- exhuasted barbarian or dead ranger.
Not to say I wouldnt change frenzy (probably by supressing the exhuastion while raging), but its not an entirly unreasonable penalty.

Those aren't sacrifices. They're choices.

The dual wielding hunter ranger who gets in melee with 2 enemies could die. So could the barbarian. But after the fight, and in the next one, the barb will be exhausted while the ranger will not.

I feel it is a very unreasonable penalty because you're not gaining much of anything in exchange for it compared to other classes gaining as much as you are with no penalties at all.

[DanyBallon]

Those aren't sacrifices. They're choices.

The dual wielding hunter ranger who gets in melee with 2 enemies could die. So could the barbarian. But after the fight, and in the next one, the barb will be exhausted while the ranger will not.

I feel it is a very unreasonable penalty because you're not gaining much of anything in exchange for it compared to other classes gaining as much as you are with no penalties at all.

Using Frenzy is also a choice, using it more than once per day is still a choice.

A berserker facing two enemies will do far more damage and may survive the day, while the puny ranger might not just be dead.

And as a matter of fact, at 15th level a berserker can be in Frenzy all day long and would suffer only from a single level of exhaustion.

[Steampunkette]

Edit: also that's the major problem with comparing just straight numbers like that the whole 'whiteroom' effect. And as to your other points I do think while the penalty doesnt weaken, you gain more access to midigate it (like raging for longer) so its still not super crazy.

It's not the White Room effect.

Mitigating the massive penalty by losing access to abilities other barbarians retain is a poor trade for a bonus action attack. Particularly when that bonus action attack is the defining difference between you and other barbarians. Especially when Feats come into play that flat out -give- you bonus action attacks without forcing you to take on Exhaustion.

It's bad design. And it's a bad ability.

[Steampunkette]

Using Frenzy is also a choice, using it more than once per day is still a choice.

A berserker facing two enemies will do far more damage and may survive the day, while the puny ranger might not just be dead.

And as a matter of fact, at 15th level a berserker can be in Frenzy all day long and would suffer only from a single level of exhaustion.

A Berserker facing 2 enemies at level 5 will probably survive. A ranger in the same place will do the same. Because that's how 5e is -designed-. So that the players probably win though there's a chance they'll fail.

The ranger, however, will go onto the next fight without a problem, able to "Choose" to use his defining class features without penalty all the time.

While the Frenzy Barb's defining feature slowly kills her.

Again, you're acting like this is a cool "Once Per Long Rest" thing that people should never use more than once a day. It's not. It's a baseline ability. It's something the Frenzy Barb should -ALWAYS- have Access to in the same way the Totem Barb always has access to all of their Path choices.

And no. Persistent Rage doesn't make you ignore Exhaustion or make your rage permanent until you stop it. It means your rage doesn't end prematurely unless you get KOed or decide to end it. At 15th level you no longer have the penalty that not attacking people kicks you out of Rage.

So if you're a level 3 Frenzy Barb and you spend your bonus action to Frenzy, then get Stunned or Charmed or whatever, you gain NO BENEFIT from Frenzying but all of the Exhaustion. At 15 you can avoid that by not getting dropped out of rage, at least.

So yeah. Frenzy is badly designed and needs an overhaul.

[Iamcreative]

Those aren't sacrifices. They're choices.

The dual wielding hunter ranger who gets in melee with 2 enemies could die. So could the barbarian. But after the fight, and in the next one, the barb will be exhausted while the ranger will not.

I feel it is a very unreasonable penalty because you're not gaining much of anything in exchange for it compared to other classes gaining as much as you are with no penalties at all.

I mean sacrifices are choices. You choose one thing instead of the other. You chose to have that bonus action attack instead of +2 ac or long range or higher -per hit- damage or not being exhausted after the fight (although I do see where youre coming from better after I wrote that, you take a bad thing along with your good thing instead of choosing 1 good thing instead of another 1 good thing)
And yes the barb could die, theyre just less likely too.
I agree that its an unfair exchange, just less unfair then "scrap it entirly"

[Steampunkette]

I mean sacrifices are choices. You choose one thing instead of the other. You chose to have that bonus action attack instead of +2 ac or long range or higher -per hit- damage or not being exhausted after the fight (although I do see where youre coming from better after I wrote that, you take a bad thing along with your good thing instead of choosing 1 good thing instead of another 1 good thing)
And yes the barb could die, theyre just less likely too.
I agree that its an unfair exchange, just less unfair then "scrap it entirly"

Hence the suggestion that I like: Lose a Hit Die. Or the more dangerous: Lose half your Proficiency Mod in hit Dice.

Instead of exhaustion, you give up some recovery. You're still benefiting from having a big hit point pool, Con to armor, and damage reduction while you're Frenzied, but your short rest recovery ability is hampered. Though I wonder if you can Frenzy with no Hit Dice Left under that idea? I would lean towards Yes, with the understanding that you're completely screwed when you need a short rest at that point.

It retains the idea of there being a Thematic or Fluffy penalty enshrined in mechanics without making it a crippling penalty that means you use Frenzy once per day and only when you desperately need it.

[Laurefindel]

I don't mind the fact that it is a cool once-per-long-rest ability, I mind about the fact that using your ability turns your not-much-to-contribute-outside-combat class into a might-as-well-not-bother-outside-combat class.

In survival/exploration games were saves vs exhaustion and skill checks are frequent, frenzy can be debilitating. Gods help you if you play with the gritty realism variant...

[Iamcreative]

Again, you're acting like this is a cool "Once Per Long Rest" thing that people should never use more than once a day. It's not. It's a baseline ability. It's something the Frenzy Barb should -ALWAYS- have Access to in the same way the Totem Barb always has access to all of their Path choices.

And no. Persistent Rage doesn't make you ignore Exhaustion or make your rage permanent until you stop it. It means your rage doesn't end prematurely unless you get KOed or decide to end it. At 15th level you no longer have the penalty that not attacking people kicks you out of Rage.

So if you're a level 3 Frenzy Barb and you spend your bonus action to Frenzy, then get Stunned or Charmed or whatever, you gain NO BENEFIT from Frenzying but all of the Exhaustion. At 15 you can avoid that by not getting dropped out of rage, at least.

So yeah. Frenzy is badly designed and needs an overhaul.

Ah alright, I think its just a differenece on how we percieve archetypes. Having it built around a 'esentially' once per long rest ability doesnt bother me. Since you can still rage and do normal barbian things (like smash stuff?). It doesnt, to me, seem like its something that a character has to always have access to. Its just another resource to management kind of thing.

[DanyBallon]

A Berserker facing 2 enemies at level 5 will probably survive. A ranger in the same place will do the same. Because that's how 5e is -designed-. So that the players probably win though there's a chance they'll fail.

The ranger, however, will go onto the next fight without a problem, able to "Choose" to use his defining class features without penalty all the time.

While the Frenzy Barb's defining feature slowly kills her.

Again, you're acting like this is a cool "Once Per Long Rest" thing that people should never use more than once a day. It's not. It's a baseline ability. It's something the Frenzy Barb should -ALWAYS- have Access to in the same way the Totem Barb always has access to all of their Path choices.

And no. Persistent Rage doesn't make you ignore Exhaustion or make your rage permanent until you stop it. It means your rage doesn't end prematurely unless you get KOed or decide to end it. At 15th level you no longer have the penalty that not attacking people kicks you out of Rage.

So if you're a level 3 Frenzy Barb and you spend your bonus action to Frenzy, then get Stunned or Charmed or whatever, you gain NO BENEFIT from Frenzying but all of the Exhaustion. At 15 you can avoid that by not getting dropped out of rage, at least.

So yeah. Frenzy is badly designed and needs an overhaul.

Frenzy is a 3rd level ability, something that is useful at lower level, and that remain useful later on, with the addition of Mindless rage, Retaliation. A charmed berserker, will effectively lose it's Frenzy, but will only suffer from disadvantage to ability checks until the end of the day, nothing more, unless he choose to go in Frenzy one more time. An archetype is not defined by a single feature, but rather by all the feature he have access to. Some archetype do have more proeminent feature when you select it, but it's not an automatism. In the case of the berserker, Mindless rage and Retaliation are much more defining.

[MadBear]

has anyone looked at Kryx's damage calculator recently. I can't seem to find it, but I'd be curious, how much damage a Beserker Barbaria is doine with and without frenzy compared to other classes.

In order for exhaustion to make sense in my mind it should be:

Scenario 1:

- Beserker Bararian (BB) does roughly equivalent damage to other melee's without frenzy
- BB does significantly more damage with frenzy compared to other

Then exhaustion at least makes sense on paper.


If we have Scenario 2:

- BB does less damage then other melee's on average w/o frenzy
- BB does roughly equivalent damage to other melee's with frenzy

Then exhaustion is a bad design feature


My guess is that we are somewhere in between scenario's 1 & 2, but that seems like a fair metric to judge it.


(And overall I still find it bad design that BB is the only class that doesn't recover on a long rest like every other class in the game)

[Steampunkette]

Frenzy is a 3rd level ability, something that is useful at lower level, and that remain useful later on, with the addition of Mindless rage, Retaliation. A charmed berserker, will effectively lose it's Frenzy, but will only suffer from disadvantage to ability checks until the end of the day, nothing more, unless he choose to go in Frenzy one more time. An archetype is not defined by a single feature, but rather by all the feature he have access to. Some archetype do have more proeminent feature when you select it, but it's not an automatism. In the case of the berserker, Mindless rage and Retaliation are much more defining.

I disagree, vehemently.

The abilities you get at the start of your class progression are meant to define what sort of class it is. The Kits are the same. That's -why- you get so much power when you do a 2-3 level dip in the different classes: They're front-loaded to establish their party role, their themes, and the style with which they do things.

A Champion will crit often. A Battlemaster will tactically deploy benefits. A Totem Barb will endure or dash or or harry opponents on behalf of her friends. A Berserker will Frenzy. It is the core thing that makes them different to start with. The other stuff they get helps further define the differences, but that first taste of "This is what I'm making" is the most important.

If "Mindless Rage" is what you see as their defining feature, then that should be what they get at level 3. Or Retaliation. Or Intimidating Presence. And then the Kit should advance from -that- viewpoint.

Heck, I'd be happy if Frenzy were a once a day higher level ability and Retaliation were their level 3 ability, with or without the tacked on "While Raging" rider.

But I still wouldn't have Frenzy result in Exhaustion because it's bad design.

[DanyBallon]

has anyone looked at Kryx's damage calculator recently. I can't seem to find it, but I'd be curious, how much damage a Beserker Barbaria is doine with and without frenzy compared to other classes.

In order for exhaustion to make sense in my mind it should be:

Scenario 1:

- Beserker Bararian (BB) does roughly equivalent damage to other melee's without frenzy
- BB does significantly more damage with frenzy compared to other

Then exhaustion at least makes sense on paper.


If we have Scenario 2:

- BB does less damage then other melee's on average w/o frenzy
- BB does roughly equivalent damage to other melee's with frenzy

Then exhaustion is a bad design feature


My guess is that we are somewhere in between scenario's 1 & 2, but that seems like a fair metric to judge it.


(And overall I still find it bad design that BB is the only class that doesn't recover on a long rest like every other class in the game)

At first glance:

at 3rd level:

Berserker w/o Frenzy = 2 attack w/advantage (Reckless attack) using a great sword (2d6)
Berserker w/ Frenzy = 3 attack w/ advantage (Reckless attack) using a great sword (2d6)
Totem Barbarian = 2 attack w/ advantage (Reckless attack) using a great sword (2d6)
Fighter (two-hander) = 1 attack + 1 attack from action surge with great sword (2d6)
Fighter (twf w/dueling fs) = 1 attack with a short sword (1d6) + 1 attack with a off-hand short sword (1d6)
Hunter ranger (twf w/dueling fs) = 1 attack with a short sword (1d6) + 1 attack with a off-hand short sword (1d6) AND IF there is another enemy within 5ft +1 attack with a short sword (1d6) --> Hunter's Mark add 1d6 to a maximum of 2 attacks if made against the quarry and if already activated
Hunter ranger (two-hander) = 1 attack with a great sword (2d6) AND IF there is another enemy within 5ft +1 attack with a greatsword (2d6) --> Hunter's mark add 1d6 to the attack against the quarry

This is just an sample with the classes and archetype most often compared to Berserker. Also, I don't know the exact formula Kryx use to calculate the damage based on the probability of landing a hit. But we can tell that by having advantage, barbarian in general have more chance to land hit.

This would need to be done for higher level as well...

[gfishfunk]

Giving retaliation at level 3 and pushing Frenzy back could be a simple and elegant solution.

[JDCGW]

Here is my frenzy fix. It gives the benefit of frenzy on the first turns. It works with two-weapon fighting. And the penalty is less likely to happen.
Frenzy
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you gain an additional action on each of your turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only) action. When your rage ends, make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, you suffer one level of exhaustion. Each time you use this feature after the first, the DC increases by 5. When you finish a short or long rest, the DC resets to 10.

[Dudu]

Typical adventuring is not 9 to 5 work monday to friday, it's more along those line:

Day 1-2: travel to nearest dungeon, have a few random encounter along the way
Day 3: 6-8 medium encounters, may need to use Frenzy once
Day 4: encounters are getting harder, Frenzy twice
Day 5: Still suffering from 1 exhaustion level, clear the rest of the dungeon, get in the boss fight, need to frenzy three time.
Day 6-7: Travel back to town (on day 6, suffer from 3 level of exhaustion, on day 7; 2 level) Not at his best during the possible random encounter.
Day 8-10: Enjoy some well earned downtime activities and clear out all remaining exhaustion level! You're ready to head back on another adventure :smallbiggrin:


Sounds like a huge chunk of sucking-at-your-job to endure 1 to 3 levels of exhaustion during ~80% of the time.

Level 1 makes you pointless out of combat. Forget sneaking around with arfing barbarian. Don't count on him to kick that door too much. If he was the tracker he is probably no more. You now became a guy who can hit things and nothing else, not even shove.
Level 2 gets worse. Halved speed mocks your class feature.
Level 3 is so brutal you shouldn't even consider having it as a barbarian.

Meanwhile, Totem barbarian is paying precisely nothing to resist nearly all kind of damage. The two core archetypes are really only comparable if your campaign doesn't use feats (and I love feats, so that's a campaign I'd probably not play at all). Put feats in the game, such as GWP (or cheaper yet, PAM), and berserkes start to feel sad and forgotten.

So far, reading this thread, the frenzy defenders are assuming two things:

1. You have plenty (PLENTY), of downtime.

- Not too count you won't face 1 or 2 unexpected fights. Makes you wonder what world is that where every fight happens exactly when the players can afford it. In fact, some bad guys (or good guys, if you are playing an evil PC) might wait you to spend your resources to assault, in which case few characters will be weaker than that lvl 3 exhaustion barbarian, even a burned out wizard might be more useful.

2. Feats are not worth considering.

- Why not? Never even found a campaign that bans feats. They are a fun aspect of the game since... dunno, always. And some feats let you do something useful with your bonus action anyway, so there goes all the glory of frenzy. A friend of mine is playing a greataxe berserker. His feat is sentinel. I keep wondering if I built a Totem Barbarian with GWP or PAM, that barbarian wouldn't have a higher damage output, with none of it's costs, and some 24h/day resistence to everything but psychic. Sounds simply strictly stronger*.

*That sentence contains only words starting with "S" somehow!

[Specter]

Sounds like a huge chunk of sucking-at-your-job to endure 1 to 3 levels of exhaustion during ~80% of the time.

Level 1 makes you pointless out of combat. Forget sneaking around with arfing barbarian. Don't count on him to kick that door too much. If he was the tracker he is probably no more. You now became a guy who can hit things and nothing else, not even shove.
Level 2 gets worse. Halved speed mocks your class feature.
Level 3 is so brutal you shouldn't even consider having it as a barbarian.

Meanwhile, Totem barbarian is paying precisely nothing to resist nearly all kind of damage. The two core archetypes are really only comparable if your campaign doesn't use feats (and I love feats, so that's a campaign I'd probably not play at all). Put feats in the game, such as GWP (or cheaper yet, PAM), and berserkes start to feel sad and forgotten.

So far, reading this thread, the frenzy defenders are assuming two things:

1. You have plenty (PLENTY), of downtime.

- Not too count you won't face 1 or 2 unexpected fights. Makes you wonder what world is that where every fight happens exactly when the players can afford it. In fact, some bad guys (or good guys, if you are playing an evil PC) might wait you to spend your resources to assault, in which case few characters will be weaker than that lvl 3 exhaustion barbarian, even a burned out wizard might be more useful.

2. Feats are not worth considering.

- Why not? Never even found a campaign that bans feats. They are a fun aspect of the game since... dunno, always. And some feats let you do something useful with your bonus action anyway, so there goes all the glory of frenzy. A friend of mine is playing a greataxe berserker. His feat is sentinel. I keep wondering if I built a Totem Barbarian with GWP or PAM, that barbarian wouldn't have a higher damage output, with none of it's costs, and some 24h/day resistence to everything but psychic. Sounds simply strictly stronger*.

*That sentence contains only words starting with "S" somehow!

Not sure I speak for everyone, but I'm not defending Frenzy, I'm defending Berserker. Even if you never use Frenzy (which you should if you're out of your league), you are a fully-functional barbarian from level 6 onwards.

About feats... yeah, if you want Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master (apparently the best Barbarian DPR) you can do it, but be ready to enjoy okay strenght and constitution for way too long.

[MadBear]

Ok, I went and found Kryx's DPR calculations. They're pretty in depth, so you can go check them out now if you'd like.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YCA2TO-ZRr5-cVLj4NSLpZZj93TPxKIfeUynhENMAOY/edit#gid=1756287161

With that said, let's look at the Fighter with PAM (FP) , Ranger w/ Hunter archetype (RH), Beserker Barbarian (BB):

I'll put up levels 5, 10, and 14 (since after that it's basically infinite rage):


Level 5

FP w/o action surge:19
FP w/ action surge: 33.1
RH:26.1
BB w/o frenzy: 28
BB w/ frenzy: 33.9


Level 10

FP w/o action surge:24.4
FP w/ action surge: 42.2
RH: 28
BB w/o frenzy:34.1
BB w/ frenzy: 41.3


Level 14

FP w/o action surge: 34.4
FP w/ action surge: 61.6
RH:32
BB w/o frenzy: 39.5
BB w/ frenzy: 47.9

So armed with this information, I'm actually inclined to change my mind and say that Frenzy is fine as is.

A Berserker Barbarian is better at DPS at every single level without frenzy compared to the fighter and ranger unless they use action surge. (and the DPS for ranger includes hunters mark).

When they do use frenzy they're still keeping up with the fighters action surge, but they get to do it for multiple rounds in a row compared to a single round of extra DPS.

So I'm inclined to say that despite initial misgivings if this math holds (which is a big if), then I think exhaustion in exchange for a DPR spike equal to action surge that lasts multiple rounds is probably fair.

[Dudu]

Not sure I speak for everyone, but I'm not defending Frenzy, I'm defending Berserker. Even if you never use Frenzy (which you should if you're out of your league), you are a fully-functional barbarian from level 6 onwards.

About feats... yeah, if you want Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master (apparently the best Barbarian DPR) you can do it, but be ready to enjoy okay strenght and constitution for way too long.
Sounds worth it, though.

I mean, GWP can net you 10 extra damage on your hits. Couples well with reckless attack too. The conditional use of bonus attack isn't that conditional considering you are doing such heavy damage. A +2 in Str doesn't get you nearly as much benefit as this feat alone, or PAM. Not to say you can wave the str increase for latter if you happen to find the gauntlets of ogre power, an uncommon item.

About Berserker, that's precisely the problem. When comparing it with the other archetype, they simply sound worse in most ways. Because if berserker is a fully functioning barbarian at lvl 6 without frenzy, so is the totem, except that one also has a lot of other resistences plus some minor bonus from lvl 6 feature (In my build, I would probably jump after lvl 5 to pursue 3 lvls of fighter for the 19-20 crit you get from Champion, sounds too good to pass.) You can't really defend the archetype based on the barbarian chassis since the other archetype receive those features as well.

[Desamir]

Not sure I speak for everyone, but I'm not defending Frenzy, I'm defending Berserker. Even if you never use Frenzy (which you should if you're out of your league), you are a fully-functional barbarian from level 6 onwards.

"You're still technically a Barbarian!" isn't really a great selling point when you're trying to pick a subclass.

[DanyBallon]

Ok, I went and found Kryx's DPR calculations. They're pretty in depth, so you can go check them out now if you'd like.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YCA2TO-ZRr5-cVLj4NSLpZZj93TPxKIfeUynhENMAOY/edit#gid=1756287161

With that said, let's look at the Fighter with PAM (FP) , Ranger w/ Hunter archetype (RH), Beserker Barbarian (BB):

I'll put up levels 5, 10, and 14 (since after that it's basically infinite rage):


Level 5

FP w/o action surge:19
FP w/ action surge: 33.1
RH:26.1
BB w/o frenzy: 28
BB w/ frenzy: 33.9


Level 10

FP w/o action surge:24.4
FP w/ action surge: 42.2
RH: 28
BB w/o frenzy:34.1
BB w/ frenzy: 41.3


Level 14

FP w/o action surge: 34.4
FP w/ action surge: 61.6
RH:32
BB w/o frenzy: 39.5
BB w/ frenzy: 47.9

So armed with this information, I'm actually inclined to change my mind and say that Frenzy is fine as is.

A Berserker Barbarian is better at DPS at every single level without frenzy compared to the fighter and ranger unless they use action surge. (and the DPS for ranger includes hunters mark).

When they do use frenzy they're still keeping up with the fighters action surge, but they get to do it for multiple rounds in a row compared to a single round of extra DPS.

So I'm inclined to say that despite initial misgivings if this math holds (which is a big if), then I think exhaustion in exchange for a DPR spike equal to action surge that lasts multiple rounds is probably fair.

And what are the numbers if you don't use PAM? The core was designed and balanced without feats. The disparency in DPR in these conditions could justify the use of exhaustion mechanic.

[Specter]

"You're still technically a Barbarian!" isn't really a great selling point when you're trying to pick a subclass.

No, the selling point is you're not running like a girl when you see a dragon, or being the Red Wizard's marionette like the Bearbarian. I won't even mention Retaliation 'cause that's far down the road, but there's that.

[djreynolds]

See the fix I propose, only negates the penalties of exhaustion while raging/frenzying. After they are still present.

[Steampunkette]

No, the selling point is you're not running like a girl when you see a dragon, or being the Red Wizard's marionette like the Bearbarian. I won't even mention Retaliation 'cause that's far down the road, but there's that.

So you're saying Mindless Rage should be at 3rd and Frenzy should come later?

Or are you saying that Frenzy should just be ignored as a "Dead Level" for Berserks and everyone should just focus on their later abilities?

I know you're saying neither, but that's kind of how it comes across. Either Frenzy sucks and should be changed (Which I firmly believe) or it doesn't. Going up into the higher tiers of gameplay to compare features at that point does nothing for a third level barbarian trying to decide whether she wants to be super durable or 6 steps from dead when she uses her kit-defining ability.

[djreynolds]

Frenzy feels like it should be a condition that just happens to you if you become bloodied and are at 1/2 hp or less.

That has flavor to it.

[DanyBallon]

So you're saying Mindless Rage should be at 3rd and Frenzy should come later?

Or are you saying that Frenzy should just be ignored as a "Dead Level" for Berserks and everyone should just focus on their later abilities?

I know you're saying neither, but that's kind of how it comes across. Either Frenzy sucks and should be changed (Which I firmly believe) or it doesn't. Going up into the higher tiers of gameplay to compare features at that point does nothing for a third level barbarian trying to decide whether she wants to be super durable or 6 steps from dead when she uses her kit-defining ability.

Frenzy doesn't sucks and is an appropriate boost for a 3rd level feature. Unlike many other features gained once you pick a subclass (what you call "kit-defining"), frenzy is not an ability to use all day long.

[Steampunkette]

Frenzy doesn't sucks and is an appropriate boost for a 3rd level feature. Unlike many other features gained once you pick a subclass (what you call "kit-defining"), frenzy is not an ability to use all day long.

And therein lies the rub. It should be.

It should be something you use more than once a day when you're as close to certain there will be no more battle to avoid feeling like you've saved up all your rocket launcher ammo for the big boss and killed him without using any of it because you were sure he had another "Final Form".

Even Worse is when some situation occurs that causes you to lose out on the Frenzy (Stun/Charm/Dominate/Etc) before you even get the benefit of the Frenzy itself. That's like someone ripped all the Rocket Launcher ammo out of your inventory and crippled you in the process while you still have the Big Boss and his Final Form to deal with.

If it needs a penalty, the penalty should be one that doesn't completely wreck your character's ability to fulfill their role in the party. One that doesn't take multiple days of long rests to recover from (Or in Gritty Realism, Weeks).

The cost is too high for the thing you're getting out of it.

[Deleted]

And therein lies the rub. It should be.

It should be something you use more than once a day when you're as close to certain there will be no more battle to avoid feeling like you've saved up all your rocket launcher ammo for the big boss and killed him without using any of it because you were sure he had another "Final Form".

Even Worse is when some situation occurs that causes you to lose out on the Frenzy (Stun/Charm/Dominate/Etc) before you even get the benefit of the Frenzy itself. That's like someone ripped all the Rocket Launcher ammo out of your inventory and crippled you in the process while you still have the Big Boss and his Final Form to deal with.

If it needs a penalty, the penalty should be one that doesn't completely wreck your character's ability to fulfill their role in the party. One that doesn't take multiple days of long rests to recover from (Or in Gritty Realism, Weeks).

The cost is too high for the thing you're getting out of it.

Just to remind people, if you use Frenzy twice a day, you die by Friday (assuming your week starts on a Monday).

[Steampunkette]

Just to remind people, if you use Frenzy twice a day, you die by Friday (assuming your week starts on a Monday).

Solomon Grundy, Born on a Monday...

[DanyBallon]

Just to remind people, if you use Frenzy twice a day, you die by Friday (assuming your week starts on a Monday).

Again your are assuming that you're adventuring every day of the week, while most often it's not the case.

[Deleted]

Again your are assuming that you're adventuring every day of the week, while most often it's not the case.

Doesn't matter.

The fact that you can't use a core feature of your character twice a day without death is ridiculous.

Also, there are plenty scenarios where you are adventuring everyday. Perhaps you are trying to escape the abyss? Perhaps you are trying to return a ring for wence it came?

Perhaps a castle town is under siege and you need to defend it from an invading army... I don't see them giving up in a day or two.

There are so many situations where you will be adventuring for more than a day or two at a time that it isnt even funny.

The exhaustion penalty is utter crap, there is no defense for it. Any defense that one might pull out their posterior is "just because" or because they think WotC/5e can't do any wrong.

[MeeposFire]

Doesn't matter.

The fact that you can't use a core feature of your character twice a day without death is ridiculous.

Also, there are plenty scenarios where you are adventuring everyday. Perhaps you are trying to escape the abyss? Perhaps you are trying to return a ring for wence it came?

Perhaps a castle town is under siege and you need to defend it from an invading army... I don't see them giving up in a day or two.

There are so many situations where you will be adventuring for more than a day or two at a time that it isnt even funny.

The exhaustion penalty is utter crap, there is no defense for it. Any defense that one might pull out their posterior is "just because" or because they think WotC/5e can't do any wrong.

I think some like the idea of getting tired from using an ability and the concept is an idea with merit it only fails because of how pervasive exhaustion is and how hard/long it is to get rid of it. If for instance exhaustion from this ability went away 1 level per short rest (and so would fully go away after a long rest) and it would still not be the best but it could be easier to work with and would not require outside assistance, die by Friday, or be stuck trying to recover over the course of a week (or whatever).

[Specter]

So you're saying Mindless Rage should be at 3rd and Frenzy should come later?

Or are you saying that Frenzy should just be ignored as a "Dead Level" for Berserks and everyone should just focus on their later abilities?

I know you're saying neither, but that's kind of how it comes across. Either Frenzy sucks and should be changed (Which I firmly believe) or it doesn't. Going up into the higher tiers of gameplay to compare features at that point does nothing for a third level barbarian trying to decide whether she wants to be super durable or 6 steps from dead when she uses her kit-defining ability.

The 3rd-level ability, Frenzy, needs some fixing if you don't have at least 1 day of downtime after every adventuring day. My favorite is making all frenzy exhaustion levels go away on a long rest (but there are many other good ones on the first page of the thread).

The primal path of the Berserker, in itself, needs no fixing. None of the 6th, 10th or14th level features of Totem compare to those gained by the Berserker in combat. If people are only focusing on the 3rd level ability to say the whole archetype is bad, they are just white-room misguided theorycrafters, and even if they saw a frenzy barbarian on the table (which they didn't), it was at low levels.

[Steampunkette]

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anyone is saying their higher level abilities are bad or not thematic. Just that the exhaustion is too much.

And yeah, I like short rest killing one level, long rest killing all, but I think my favorite fix, thus far, is the Hit Dice expenditure.

[MadBear]

And what are the numbers if you don't use PAM? The core was designed and balanced without feats. The disparency in DPR in these conditions could justify the use of exhaustion mechanic.

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I'm agreeing with you that exhaustion is probably fair given that a BB w/o frenzy is doing more DPS then a fighter who is not using action surge, which means that they don't even need frenzy to be overall DPR kings (not burst dpr, but sustained dpr).

As to your question, I'm not sure, since I don't see that data right off the charts, but I'm sure it's their if you wanted to dig.

[DanyBallon]

If you read what I wrote, you'll see that I'm agreeing with you that exhaustion is probably fair given that a BB w/o frenzy is doing more DPS then a fighter who is not using action surge, which means that they don't even need frenzy to be overall DPR kings (not burst dpr, but sustained dpr).

As to your question, I'm not sure, since I don't see that data right off the charts, but I'm sure it's their if you wanted to dig.

I wasn't saying you didn't agree with me. I was just looking to have the numbers vs no feat fighter, because the numbers provided are close enough that people will continue to argue that using the exhaustion mechanic is not worth it. If on the other hand there's far more difference between berserker and non PAM fighter, as the core rules were designed and balanced without feats, then we may have a solid explanation why frenzy was designed that way.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I agree. I don't think anyone is saying their higher level abilities are bad or not thematic. Just that the exhaustion is too much.

And yeah, I like short rest killing one level, long rest killing all, but I think my favorite fix, thus far, is the Hit Dice expenditure.

I personally don't really have any gripes about the rest of Beserker. Out of all the PHB Barbarian subclasses it actually gains features at a decent pace. I would like to see mindless rage upgrade at a higher level (so that a level 2 spell doesn't gimp the barbarian) but overall the Beserker is pretty good.

I would allow a player to substitute a level 3 totem feature (level 14 for bear as I think that fits better at level 3, but that's a different issue) in place of Frenzy without batting an eye.

Bear and Wolf: Your frenzy is incredible, it unnerves and distracts your enemies.

Eagle: Your frenzy gives you a boost of speed. Your enemies can hardly keep up with your movements.

[LordVonDerp]

Edit: also that's the major problem with comparing just straight numbers like that the whole 'whiteroom' effect.

Yeah, white room analysis certainly makes Frenzy seem way better than it actually is.

[DanyBallon]

Yeah, white room analysis certainly makes Frenzy seem way better than it actually is.

On the contrary, actual play of the berserker, shows you that Frenzy is not as bad as some pretend...

[Deleted]

On the contrary, actual play of the berserker, shows you that Frenzy is not as bad as some pretend...

In a white room maybe. But if you have to spend multiple days resting in order to use it again... That sucks.

I just love the idea that the game will wait for the barbarian to feel better before crap happens.

[DanyBallon]

In a white room maybe. But if you have to spend multiple days resting in order to use it again... That sucks.

I just love the idea that the game will wait for the barbarian to feel better before crap happens.

Downtime are part of the game and expected to happen quite often. Situations where the Berserker party will be engage in figthing days after days after days are few. And when such a situation arise, the berserker can choose to not Frenzy more than once a day. It's not because you get a feature when you choose your subclass that you need to use that feature all day long. This is how you perceive the game, not necessarly how the game was designed.

You're arguing that the ability is crap, but it's only because it doesn't suit your playstyle, which stretch from the expected design.

[MadBear]

Not to mention that the Frenzy Barbarian will be putting out more damage on average then the other martials without using that ability at all. With that being the case, they're not really too hampered by avoiding using that feature unless the scene really calls for it.

So with that being the case, I see no problem. (mind you I was on the other side of the issue until you look at the DPR charts, and see that there isn't actually any problem there).

[Deleted]

Not to mention that the Frenzy Barbarian will be putting out more damage on average then the other martials without using that ability at all. With that being the case, they're not really too hampered by avoiding using that feature unless the scene really calls for it.

So with that being the case, I see no problem. (mind you I was on the other side of the issue until you look at the DPR charts, and see that there isn't actually any problem there).

... Well that's backwards.

Everyone else gets to use core features whenever they want because that is who they are... But the one dude or chick that is all about rage, unleashing the beast, and all that is uncivilized... Has to be an accountant?

Not only is that mechanically unfair to the player but it goes against what a barbarian is.

An accountant barbarian is a fine character, but a horrible class.

I don't care if frenzy gives you a +100 damage boost during rage. It doesn't warrant such a huge penalty.

If high potential equals high punishment then wizards, clerics, and bards should get exhaustion everytime they cast a spell from their highest level spell slot (max 5th) and anytime they cast a 6th - 9th level spell.

Damage is the least of a DM's worries.

Whats more is that so many creatures can or will have resistances to non-magical damage that the Barbarian really isn't doing as much damage as the white room says it is.

[Desamir]

Like Deleted said, I don't think DPR was ever the crux of the issue. It's more the fact that it's a mediocre-feeling ability with a harsh penalty attached to it, and it comes at a time when other subclasses are getting cooler all-upside toys.

Players generally don't like things with major downside unless the upside is huge.

[MeeposFire]

Not to mention that the Frenzy Barbarian will be putting out more damage on average then the other martials without using that ability at all. With that being the case, they're not really too hampered by avoiding using that feature unless the scene really calls for it.

So with that being the case, I see no problem. (mind you I was on the other side of the issue until you look at the DPR charts, and see that there isn't actually any problem there).

One thing I am confused about you are making it sound like you were surprised that it was ahead on the DPR chart but what did you expect exactly? It is the only barbarian type in the PHB that directly improves damage so it should be ahead. Now what you could be saying is that it was farther ahead than you assumed it would be which begs the question exactly how much ahead does it have to be in order to deserve exhaustion and then you have to consider that few here are saying that the ability should have no drawback rather that the current drawback is not ideal and that a different would be more palatable.

[Iamcreative]

Like Deleted said, I don't think DPR was ever the crux of the issue. It's more the fact that it's a mediocre-feeling ability with a harsh penalty attached to it, and it comes at a time when other subclasses are getting cooler all-upside toys.

Players generally don't like things with major downside unless the upside is huge.

Maybe its just me, but it looks like the upside is huge. Over the course of the fight I get to deal twice as much damage (or more) than the fighter after I hit the panic button.

That sounds like a mechanic that has interesting choice and gives reasonable pros and cons. To me thats what I want, I may be useless for any out of combat encounters for the rest of the day but thats ok by me since I just crushed those punks. Let the rest of the party do cool things and Ill hang back and still be a raging barbarian when combat roles around again. Even if I dont frenzy again that day.

[Iamcreative]

One thing I am confused about you are making it sound like you were surprised that it was ahead on the DPR chart but what did you expect exactly? It is the only barbarian type in the PHB that directly improves damage so it should be ahead. Now what you could be saying is that it was farther ahead than you assumed it would be which begs the question exactly how much ahead does it have to be in order to deserve exhaustion and then you have to consider that few here are saying that the ability should have no drawback rather that the current drawback is not ideal and that a different would be more palatable.

Right, thus is all about if frenzy is worth a level of exhuastion. After the math got done the unfrenzied barbarian was doing the most damage out of the martials. With frenzy it wasnt even a contest. So the fact that the benefit is large enough to warrent a penalty is more clear.

[MadBear]

One thing I am confused about you are making it sound like you were surprised that it was ahead on the DPR chart but what did you expect exactly? It is the only barbarian type in the PHB that directly improves damage so it should be ahead. Now what you could be saying is that it was farther ahead than you assumed it would be which begs the question exactly how much ahead does it have to be in order to deserve exhaustion and then you have to consider that few here are saying that the ability should have no drawback rather that the current drawback is not ideal and that a different would be more palatable.

Iamcreative already mostly addressed what I was going to say, but I'll piggy back a bit.

Let me try using a hypothetical scenario to make my point.

Let's say we have person A, B, and C applying for a job.

Person A is so good at the job, that even without trying he's already better then persons B & C.

Person A also can actually try, and when they do, they're significantly better then B & C.


That's the scenario we have with the Barbarian. Without using frenzy, he's already better then other martials. that's also the part I was suprised by.

I originally assumed he'd be in the middle of the pack DPR wise, and only with frenzy could he top out. The fact that he leads the way in DPR prior to frenzy, just makes me realize that frenzy needs a heavy drawback to balance it out.

[MadBear]

Players generally don't like things with major downside unless the upside is huge.

that's what I was trying to show. the upside is huge.

You go from being the biggest baddest martial, to being an even bigger and badder martial, with a downside after the fact.

[Desamir]

that's what I was trying to show. the upside is huge.

You go from being the biggest baddest martial, to being an even bigger and badder martial, with a downside after the fact.

For 1-2 minutes per day (provided you are able to hold onto your rage). That's not a big enough upside to convince people to play this subclass.

[MadBear]

For 1-2 minutes per day (provided you are able to hold onto your rage). That's not a big enough upside to convince people to play this subclass.

for 6-12 rounds in combat, which at the table can be anywhere from 30-120 minutes of time.

I know it sounds good to say 1-2 per day, but in a game like D&D, 1-2 minutes is a lot of in-game time.

If you want to balance frenzy, you'd first need to make the barbarian worse, or not let frenzy add to their DPR since it's already going to be better then others. You can't have a DPR that's better then everyone else most the day, and then give them an ability that lets them be even better then everyone else.

But doing that would require an entire rewrite of the class. As it is right now, it's mechanically fine, balance wise it's fine, but roleplay wise maybe not the most fun for some people. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to fix that without messing other parts of the system up.

[gfishfunk]

for 6-12 rounds in combat, which at the table can be anywhere from 30-120 minutes of time.

I know it sounds good to say 1-2 per day, but in a game like D&D, 1-2 minutes is a lot of in-game time.

If you want to balance frenzy, you'd first need to make the barbarian worse, or not let frenzy add to their DPR since it's already going to be better then others. You can't have a DPR that's better then everyone else most the day, and then give them an ability that lets them be even better then everyone else.

But doing that would require an entire rewrite of the class. As it is right now, it's mechanically fine, balance wise it's fine, but roleplay wise maybe not the most fun for some people. Unfortunately, I don't see a way to fix that without messing other parts of the system up.

A somewhat easy balance: "Your frenzy attack does weapon damage without the modifier bonus. Also, your exhaustion level goes away by expending two hit die on a short rest (I love that mechanic and one day you will, too)." Less damage, less repercussions, better feel.

[Desamir]

for 6-12 rounds in combat, which at the table can be anywhere from 30-120 minutes of time.

Noting that you skip the first round of each combat, and you can lose it early by losing your rage.


I know it sounds good to say 1-2 per day, but in a game like D&D, 1-2 minutes is a lot of in-game time.

If you want to balance frenzy, you'd first need to make the barbarian worse, or not let frenzy add to their DPR since it's already going to be better then others. You can't have a DPR that's better then everyone else most the day, and then give them an ability that lets them be even better then everyone else.

I disagree with this premise. Somebody is always going to be at the top of any given chart, that doesn't necessitate tacking exhaustion on as a downside.

Additionally, I'm a little skeptical of math that says Barbarians are at the top of the DPR charts--unless you mean with Reckless Attack, which requires you to take a serious defensive penalty that needs to be accounted for in the comparison.

I'd wager that an Oathbreaker Paladin with PAM would keep up with or exceed a Barbarian, with no expenditure of resources.

[MadBear]

Noting that you skip the first round of each combat, and you can lose it early by losing your rage.

I agree, it's a tool.




I disagree with this premise. Somebody is always going to be at the top of any given chart, that doesn't necessitate tacking exhaustion on as a downside.

I'm pointing out that they are on the top of the chart without using frenzy. Look at the numbers, without frenzy they're still doing more damage. Feel free to go look at Kryx's chart if you don't believe me.



Additionally, I'm a little skeptical of math that says Barbarians are at the top of the DPR charts--unless you mean with Reckless Attack, which requires you to take a serious defensive penalty that needs to be accounted for in the comparison.

I'd wager that an Oathbreaker Paladin with PAM would keep up with or exceed a Barbarian, with no expenditure of resources.

Feel free to run the numbers. If the numbers are off, that would change my mind.

[MeeposFire]

Noting that you skip the first round of each combat, and you can lose it early by losing your rage.



I disagree with this premise. Somebody is always going to be at the top of any given chart, that doesn't necessitate tacking exhaustion on as a downside.

Additionally, I'm a little skeptical of math that says Barbarians are at the top of the DPR charts--unless you mean with Reckless Attack, which requires you to take a serious defensive penalty that needs to be accounted for in the comparison.

I'd wager that an Oathbreaker Paladin with PAM would keep up with or exceed a Barbarian, with no expenditure of resources.

As I recall in the numbers they were using reckless and using great weapon fighting. The advantage combined with the +10 to damage per attack is where barbarian comes out ahead in this comparison. Without those it drops way back.

Also give the totem barb PAM (which is really common from an OP point of view) and berserker is still ahead but not by much and realize that unless the bererker wants to be weaker than the totem barb then they too will need to take PAM as well.

[Vogonjeltz]

So you use frenzy twice in one day, that's two days until you are normal. Say you want to use it twice a day each day?

Then you don't. This is the most revealing sentence in your post, because you are clearly not following the advice given at the end of the second sentence you quoted.

"using it, exactly like Overchannel, requires exercising a modicum of caution."

Shazam, that's it, just don't use it too much when you have no other means of removing the exhaustion. Moderation should not a difficult concept in a game with so many classes that require resource management to be useful.

And everyone knows the spell comes from a spellcasting class, this is also a team game, not a solo one.


I think that main point of this discussion is that as a keystone ability you are telling your Frenzy Barb that they must judiciously use that ability or suffer crippling penalties. This is vastly different from any other keystone ability which can be used every encounter. Just poor design.

Rage is a keystone ability, and that's not in any way impacted. Frenzy is a archetypal ability, and it's absurdly powerful without this limit. Being afraid to use it more than once a day is more than reasonable.

[quote=DanyBallon]Isn't it even weirder having 6-8 encounters only take a few hours in a day? At this rate, adventurer are either just slakers or otherwise should be able to face much more challenge, don't you think?

Technically most encounters (combat) are going to take less than 20 rounds (2 minutes) each, so probably less than 20 minutes of combat for the whole day.


I would allow a player to substitute a level 3 totem feature (level 14 for bear as I think that fits better at level 3, but that's a different issue) in place of Frenzy without batting an eye.

Neither one of those totems is close to as good as Frenzy. Maybe if you gave all 3 totems, it's almost as good.


In a white room maybe.

He said "actual play", that's not a white room.

[LordVonDerp]

On the contrary, actual play of the berserker, shows you that Frenzy is not as bad as some pretend...
Only in a white room, disadvantage on all skills is too big of a penalty, especially just as you're finishing up a combat heavy encounter.

[DanyBallon]

Only in a white room, disadvantage on all skills is too big of a penalty, especially just as you're finishing up a combat heavy encounter.

Disadvantage on all skills is important if you are in a white room, because white room rarely assume that you are in a party. Actual play shows you that while you are crippled skill wise, the other party members can make up for you. After all you just shined frenzying and save them expenditure of ressources. By frenzying you changed a deadly fight into a hard encounter.

D&D isn't a solo game, many forum users seems to forget that.

[Steampunkette]

See, guys? You're not useless!

You've got a party to do all the work for you!

The fact that you're no longer contributing really doesn't matter!

[DanyBallon]

See, guys? You're not useless!

You've got a party to do all the work for you!

The fact that you're no longer contributing really doesn't matter!

So you're saying that you should shine into every aspect of the game? Why bother forming a party? Unless is that they are only cannon fodders so you can shine even brighter when fighting?

[LordVonDerp]

Shazam, that's it, just don't use it too much when you have no other means of removing the exhaustion.

Well, barbarians don't get methods of removing exhaustion, so that'll be a problem.




Moderation should not a difficult concept in a game with so many classes that require resource management to be useful.

If frenzy was some rare and powerful ability, maybe



And everyone knows the spell comes from a spellcasting class, this is also a team game, not a solo one.

Right, it's a team game and as such it's inappropriate to expect other players to waste level 5 spell slots all so you can use an ability that is worse than Haste, a level 3 spell.



Rage is a keystone ability, and that's not in any way impacted. Frenzy is a archetypal ability, and it's absurdly powerful without this limit. Being afraid to use it more than once a day is more than reasonable.

Using it once is crippling
Also, frenzy only gives about about 3 or 4 extra damage per round.





He said "actual play", that's not a white room.
Depends on the DM.

[LordVonDerp]

So you're saying that you should shine into every aspect of the game?
:thog: thog find strawman

[Steampunkette]

:thog: thog find strawman

QFT!

To answer the ridiculous strawman: Nah. But it'd be nice to be able to contribute with reasonable ability after using a core ability.

[DanyBallon]

QFT!

To answer the ridiculous strawman: Nah. But it'd be nice to be able to contribute with reasonable ability after using a core ability.

And you will contribute most of the time! How often doI need to remind you that's not an obligation to use frenzy more than once in a day. Frenzy is just an ability like all the other archetypes abilities that define your character. There's not such thing as core ability that define what an archetype is. It's an assumption you've made up. While many archetype have a passive ability when then they pick their subclass there ain't any rules or clear design indication that every archetype should behave the same.


And please, can with keep it civil? We may disagree and sometimes our arguments are more agressive than they should be, but it's no reason for insults and namecalling. Thanks

[MadBear]

I'm almost curious if Frenzy would have been better served so that it could only be used once per long rest.

[djreynolds]

Ok, I went and found Kryx's DPR calculations. They're pretty in depth, so you can go check them out now if you'd like.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YCA2TO-ZRr5-cVLj4NSLpZZj93TPxKIfeUynhENMAOY/edit#gid=1756287161

With that said, let's look at the Fighter with PAM (FP) , Ranger w/ Hunter archetype (RH), Beserker Barbarian (BB):

I'll put up levels 5, 10, and 14 (since after that it's basically infinite rage):


Level 5

FP w/o action surge:19
FP w/ action surge: 33.1
RH:26.1
BB w/o frenzy: 28
BB w/ frenzy: 33.9


Level 10

FP w/o action surge:24.4
FP w/ action surge: 42.2
RH: 28
BB w/o frenzy:34.1
BB w/ frenzy: 41.3


Level 14

FP w/o action surge: 34.4
FP w/ action surge: 61.6
RH:32
BB w/o frenzy: 39.5
BB w/ frenzy: 47.9

So armed with this information, I'm actually inclined to change my mind and say that Frenzy is fine as is.

A Berserker Barbarian is better at DPS at every single level without frenzy compared to the fighter and ranger unless they use action surge. (and the DPS for ranger includes hunters mark).

When they do use frenzy they're still keeping up with the fighters action surge, but they get to do it for multiple rounds in a row compared to a single round of extra DPS.

So I'm inclined to say that despite initial misgivings if this math holds (which is a big if), then I think exhaustion in exchange for a DPR spike equal to action surge that lasts multiple rounds is probably fair.

Kryx's math is pretty solid

DPR does seem solid, reckless attack is as always fantastic.

Berserker does do great damage with GWM, but this is because of reckless attack and advantage and the static damage of GWM (+10)

Obviously it is a minor bump with while frenzying with PAM as the BA is now 1d10 instead of 1d4

I think my idea holds weight.

I'm not saying to get rid of exhaustion at all, just suspend it while raging/frenzying, same thing mindless rage does for fear and charm.

[Dudu]

The actual play of berserker in my table wasn't so impressive. Perhaps because the player optimized it poorly.

But here's one thing a lot of frenzy defenders are ignoring.

1. It might end earlier. Now, that might sound highly unlikely, given you'd need to be "forcecaged" (or "mazed") out of combat. But berserkers are significantly more frail than others. Resistance to physical damage helps, but not enough. The barbarian in my party falls a bit too much. I'm the cleric, and I end up spending a good chunk of resources bringing him back... without his rage and now with a lvl of exhaustion.

2. I don't feel the extra damage is that big to be honest. The extra damage isn't bigger than the one granted by Great Weapon Mastery. A solid flat +10 to damage, guys, put that in your equation. Obviously, the berserker can get that feat just as much as a Totem or a Fighter or whatever, but he is discourage to do. My friend, for example, don't like the fact he would need a bonus action to do an extra attack with GWP, since he already does so with his class feature (I still think it's a good feat to his build, though). The fighter of our team did employ GWP, and out-damaged the barbarian by a fat margin.

3. You are comparing berserker with fighters. Ok. But for the purpose of defending the frenzy, a subclass feature, wouldn't it make more sense to compare a berserker with a totem barb? I mean, if the unfrenzied barbarian is so competent at doing damage, and you consider that a good thing, so is the totem. But the totem can eat a cone of cold in his face while a berseker may not.

4. The berserker is specializing heavily in damage dealing. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it really does seem that damage dealing is the easiest role in a party to cover. Basically every class and subclass can find a way to deal acceptable damage, even a lore bard. But you are doing that at the expense of nearly everything else. In fact, depending on the exhaustion level, you might end up sucking at what people expect a barbarian to excell. It seems to me the barbarian is ok with being a hindrance to the party, all at the expense of doing more damage in that one combat of the day. Who might not be the last. And maybe the extra damage was excessive.

My veredict is still the same. Frenzy's cost is too high.

[Steampunkette]

And you will contribute most of the time! How often doI need to remind you that's not an obligation to use frenzy more than once in a day. Frenzy is just an ability like all the other archetypes abilities that define your character. There's not such thing as core ability that define what an archetype is. It's an assumption you've made up. While many archetype have a passive ability when then they pick their subclass there ain't any rules or clear design indication that every archetype should behave the same.


And please, can with keep it civil? We may disagree and sometimes our arguments are more agressive than they should be, but it's no reason for insults and namecalling. Thanks

Nah, dude. It's not an assumption, it's the point of "Thematic abilities" like Frenzy that you get early and form the foundation of the character class. The stuff that defines the major differences. It's why Eldritch Knights get Spellcasting at level 3 instead of "Arcane Charge" or some similar pseudo-mystical ability and spellcasting later in their progression.

It's a basic function of class based design that you place the character defining abilities early in a character's adventuring career in order to create the appropriate "Feel" and fulfill the basic idea of that class in mechanical terms. Otherwise you've got 4 fighters that call themselves Paladin, Ranger, Barbarian, and Fighter with no real differences between them until they "Prestige" out at a later level. Like how Paladins worked in early D&D. You were just a fighter 'til you weren't.

As to namecalling: Strawman refers to a rhetorical fallacy wherein one takes a facet of an opponent's argument, constructs a different argument around it, and argues against -that- argument rather than the one actually being presented. It wasn't an insult but rather a calling out of "That's not what she said".

Sure, you've got a party, but if you're the "Strongman" of the group and you've frenzied, once, the party can no longer expect you to use your strength to overcome obstacles on a reasonable basis. If you've frenzied twice: The party can probably no longer avoid encounters as your stealth is disadvantaged and your ability to escape is severely hampered.

If you're a Barbarian with a Criminal background since the party didn't have a skill-monkey (Danger Sense and big HD help with failed trap-catching) and you've frenzied once: The whole group is SoL when you're trying to disarm traps at disadvantage.

People wanna talk about White Room theorycrafting? How about the idea that you won't -need- to frenzy but once per day, or that you won't -need- to Frenzy until the final fight in a day? There have been times where I've had to drop all of my resources into the first or second fight out of 8 because that's how rough things were going against us, whether misjugement by the DM as to what we could handle, misjudgement on the players on how to handle a fight, or sheer bad rolls.

[Steampunkette]

The actual play of berserker in my table wasn't so impressive. Perhaps because the player optimized it poorly.

But here's one thing a lot of frenzy defenders are ignoring.

1. It might end earlier. Now, that might sound highly unlikely, given you'd need to be "forcecaged" (or "mazed") out of combat. But berserkers are significantly more frail than others. Resistance to physical damage helps, but not enough. The barbarian in my party falls a bit too much. I'm the cleric, and I end up spending a good chunk of resources bringing him back... without his rage and now with a lvl of exhaustion.

2. I don't feel the extra damage is that big to be honest. The extra damage isn't bigger than the one granted by Great Weapon Mastery. A solid flat +10 to damage, guys, put that in your equation. Obviously, the berserker can get that feat just as much as a Totem or a Fighter or whatever, but he is discourage to do. My friend, for example, don't like the fact he would need a bonus action to do an extra attack with GWP, since he already does so with his class feature (I still think it's a good feat to his build, though). The fighter of our team did employ GWP, and out-damaged the barbarian by a fat margin.

3. You are comparing berserker with fighters. Ok. But for the purpose of defending the frenzy, a subclass feature, wouldn't it make more sense to compare a berserker with a totem barb? I mean, if the unfrenzied barbarian is so competent at doing damage, and you consider that a good thing, so is the totem. But the totem can eat a cone of cold in his face while a berseker may not.

4. The berserker is specializing heavily in damage dealing. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it really does seem that damage dealing is the easiest role in a party to cover. Basically every class and subclass can find a way to deal acceptable damage, even a lore bard. But you are doing that at the expense of nearly everything else. In fact, depending on the exhaustion level, you might end up sucking at what people expect a barbarian to excell. It seems to me the barbarian is ok with being a hindrance to the party, all at the expense of doing more damage in that one combat of the day. Who might not be the last. And maybe the extra damage was excessive.

My veredict is still the same. Frenzy's cost is too high.

Very much agree.

On average a Barbarian's AC is going to be moderate but not -high-, thanks to wielding a big weapon (For maximum Brutal Critical), and having to prioritize Strength and Constitution over Dexterity. Assuming decent stats that's probably a starting AC of 16 or less. Unfortunately that's also probably going to -continue- being their AC for the forseeable future.

The ability to take half damage from B/S/P is going to be pretty important, because basically every attack is going to hit the Barbarian once they start Reckless Attacking at 2. But it also grants advantage to everything they -don't- have resistance to, as well. Eldritch Blasts and Scorching Rays will hit the Zerk pretty hard. Even Firebolts and Eldritch Blasts become far more attractive.

Fortunately they've got d12s to give them some more durability, overall, along with a relatively high Con mod. But the difference isn't going to be that big compared to a fighter of similar level who -doesn't- grant advantage.

Depending on how the DM spreads damage across the group (or stacks it onto the crazy one) the Zerk is in a pretty precarious position. And hitting 0 even once during a frenzy ends it, granting exhaustion. So even if you get back up from the bard flinging a Healing Word you're gonna be at disadvantage to ability checks and probably need to burn another Frenzy.

Half-Orcs really do make the best Zerks just for the ability to go "Wait! I'm not QUITE dead! Let me Frenzy some more!"

[Cybren]

For 1-2 minutes per day (provided you are able to hold onto your rage). That's not a big enough upside to convince people to play this subclass.

As it turns out, a bonus action attack with no conditions on your action usage helps you to retain rage.

[DanyBallon]

As to namecalling: Strawman refers to a rhetorical fallacy wherein one takes a facet of an opponent's argument, constructs a different argument around it, and argues against -that- argument rather than the one actually being presented. It wasn't an insult but rather a calling out of "That's not what she said".

I know what a strawman is, and your right my argument was one. But it's quite insulting when it's about an answer to an equally fallaccious comment you posted.



Sure, you've got a party, but if you're the "Strongman" of the group and you've frenzied, once, the party can no longer expect you to use your strength to overcome obstacles on a reasonable basis. If you've frenzied twice: The party can probably no longer avoid encounters as your stealth is disadvantaged and your ability to escape is severely hampered.

You are still the "Strongman" even after frenzying once. You're on par with any other barbarain on that matter (let me remind you that not all totems barbarian are bearbarian, in case you wanted to throw in bearbarian resistance as an argument). Yes you'll suck at stealth check, but the Cleric or Paladin in your party was already hindering you from the beginning.



If you're a Barbarian with a Criminal background since the party didn't have a skill-monkey (Danger Sense and big HD help with failed trap-catching) and you've frenzied once: The whole group is SoL when you're trying to disarm traps at disadvantage.

I agree, your party is screwed. As much as if your tank got charmed and is taken out of combat.
But to get back to criminal background berserker, if incapacitated from exhaustion, nothing prevents an ally to help him out to cancel the disadvantage.


People wanna talk about White Room theorycrafting? How about the idea that you won't -need- to frenzy but once per day, or that you won't -need- to Frenzy until the final fight in a day? There have been times where I've had to drop all of my resources into the first or second fight out of 8 because that's how rough things were going against us, whether misjugement by the DM as to what we could handle, misjudgement on the players on how to handle a fight, or sheer bad rolls.

You're right such situations happens. What about a spell caster that needed to burn through all it's spells? Wizards and Warlock can regain limited spell slots, but cleric won't. And what if instead, you burned through all your potions and med kit? Such a situation is bad for more than just the berserker. Most party will pull out, rest and try to figure out what went wrong. After that it's up to the berserker player and its party to decide if they choose to head back right away or spend more time to better prepare themselves and let the berserker recover more.

[Steampunkette]

I know what a strawman is, and your right my argument was one. But it's insulting when it was answering to an equally fallaccious comment you posted.

You are still the "Strongman" even after frenzying once. You're on par with any other barbarain on that matter (let me remind you that not all totems barbarian are bearbarian, in case you wanted to throw in bearbarian resistance as an argument). Yes you'll suck at stealth check, but the Cleric or Paladin in your party was already hindering you from the beginning.

I agree, your party is screwed. As much as if your tank got charmed and is taken out of combat.
But to get back to criminal background berserker, if incapacitated from exhaustion, nothing prevents an ally to help him out to cancel the disadvantage.

You're right such situations happens. What about a spell caster that needed to burn through all it's spells? Wizards and Warlock can regain limited spell slots, but cleric won't. And what if instead, you burned through all your potions and med kit? Such a situation is bad for more than just the berserker. Most party will pull out, rest and try to figure out what went wrong. After that it's up to the berserker player and its party to decide if they choose to head back right away or spend more time to better prepare themselves and let the berserker recover more.

My comment was sarcastic, not fallacious.

And no. After one frenzy you're not as strong as the Bearbarian or even the Wolfbarian because they, at least, don't have Disadvantage on Strength checks. And a friendly helping them accomplish a task grants Advantage, they don't break even. So you're still not as strong as they are, or as skilled in the Trap-Bypassing example. 'Cause Exhaustion is a flat out penalty that weakens you and (In those situations) weakens the whole team.

Your team can help, but you're giving up a hell of a lot for that extra attack per round for the rest of the day.

And yeah. A Wizard can burn through all their spell slots, early. And still make Skill Checks the rest of the day and move full speed and not have disadvantage on attacks and saves, and so on and so forth. A Wizard who drops all her spells in one fight still has plenty of ability to contribute in non-combat situations and throws Cantrips for combat ones.

The Zerk, on the other hand, grows progressively weaker -beyond- the lowered combat capability. In a way that bleeds into other gameplay systems and mechanics.

[Lombra]

People just can't accept that they have to think in order to play a berserker. Play a blastlock if you want it easy.

[Steampunkette]

People just can't accept that they have to think in order to play a berserker. Play a blastlock if you want it easy.

http://media.istockphoto.com/photos/troll-playground-picture-id471541231?k=6&m=471541231&s=170667a&w=0&h=U4_hhNYxjWZVKIZpQ4xLEEPk74HquFCQOCS07UgegOs=

Your comment adds nothing to the discussion but insult.

[MadBear]

Let me ask then.

If you have a class that is better then the other classes at dealing damage, even without frenzy, how do you balance that against, frenzy when it will make them do even more damage?

My best guess, would be to take away exhaustion, and make it a once per long rest ability. That way a fighter gets a solid round of awesomeness once per short rest, and the barbarian get's a full combat of action once per long rest.

That's the only way I see this being balanced, without toning down the barbarian overall.

[DanyBallon]

Let me ask then.

If you have a class that is better then the other classes at dealing damage, even without frenzy, how do you balance that against, frenzy when it will make them do even more damage?

My best guess, would be to take away exhaustion, and make it a once per long rest ability. That way a fighter gets a solid round of awesomeness once per short rest, and the barbarian get's a full combat of action once per long rest.

That's the only way I see this being balanced, without toning down the barbarian overall.

It would work just fine. You could even add a second use later on. It saddens me though that you lose the flavor of overtaxing your body to push yourself beyond your normal limit.

[Lombra]

http://media.istockphoto.com/photos/troll-playground-picture-id471541231?k=6&m=471541231&s=170667a&w=0&h=U4_hhNYxjWZVKIZpQ4xLEEPk74HquFCQOCS07UgegOs=

Your comment adds nothing to the discussion but insult.

It adds a layer of self-evaluation. Something that lacks everywhere. You got triggered just because I pointed out a different approach to the problem. Ask yourself a question and give yourself an answer.

[N810]

Let me ask then.

If you have a class that is better then the other classes at dealing damage, even without frenzy, how do you balance that against, frenzy when it will make them do even more damage?

My best guess, would be to take away exhaustion, and make it a once per long rest ability. That way a fighter gets a solid round of awesomeness once per short rest, and the barbarian get's a full combat of action once per long rest.

That's the only way I see this being balanced, without toning down the barbarian overall.

Restricting it to once a day is a bit of a nerf...
If the First frenzy of the day was exhaustion free, then it would be a buff.

[Steampunkette]

Level 3 Dual-Wielding Rogue and Frenzy Barbarian.

At level 3 the Rogue is throwing out 1d6+5, 1d6, and 2d6 damage. Average DPR 19 if they hit with both attacks, indefinitely.

At level 3 the Barbarian is throwing out 1d12+5 and 1d12+5 Average DPR 23 if they hit with both attacks for 1 minute.

But wait. That Rogue doesn't have any 3rd level kit abilities on it's attacks, so let's go ahead and give the Rogue the Assassin (It's the most damage-centric kit for Rogues) and add basic poison for another 1d4 damage. 24 average DPR for 1 minute (until the poison dries).

So. The Frenzied Berserker gets 1 less DPR than an Assassin rogue (Outside of the Assassinate ability) during the minute they're using their kit abilities for extended damage. And at the end of it is exhausted.

Barbarians have some things in common with fighters, but they're not fighters and shouldn't be compared, exclusively, to fighters.

Hunter Ranger with 3 attacks at 1d6+5, 1d6+5, and 1d6+5 against a second target. Add in Hunter's Mark and it's 2d6+5, 2d6+5, and 1d6+5. Average DPR 22 over an hour.

Different classes deal with damage mitigation differently. The Rogue skirmishes into and out of the fight to avoid retaliation. The Barbarian takes more damage but flatly reduces it. The Ranger uses self-healing spells.

[Steampunkette]

It adds a layer of self-evaluation. Something that lacks everywhere. You got triggered just because I pointed out a different approach to the problem. Ask yourself a question and give yourself an answer.

I like how you use "Triggered" as an insult, there. It implies I've got PTSD because of something and your mocking statement made me have a violent and painful flashback to your amusement. That's a remarkable level of cruelty!

And no. You didn't address the problem as has been laid out, repeatedly, in the thread. You threw out an ad hominem and framed it in a passive aggressive fashion. The "Self Evaluation" remark is just more of that.

[Shaofoo]

Level 3 Dual-Wielding Rogue and Frenzy Barbarian.

At level 3 the Rogue is throwing out 1d6+5, 1d6, and 2d6 damage. Average DPR 19 if they hit with both attacks, indefinitely.

At level 3 the Barbarian is throwing out 1d12+5 and 1d12+5 Average DPR 23 if they hit with both attacks for 1 minute.

But wait. That Rogue doesn't have any 3rd level kit abilities on it's attacks, so let's go ahead and give the Rogue the Assassin (It's the most damage-centric kit for Rogues) and add basic poison for another 1d4 damage. 24 average DPR for 1 minute (until the poison dries).

So. The Frenzied Berserker gets 1 less DPR than an Assassin rogue (Outside of the Assassinate ability) during the minute they're using their kit abilities for extended damage. And at the end of it is exhausted.

Barbarians have some things in common with fighters, but they're not fighters and shouldn't be compared, exclusively, to fighters.

Hunter Ranger with 3 attacks at 1d6+5, 1d6+5, and 1d6+5 against a second target. Add in Hunter's Mark and it's 2d6+5, 2d6+5, and 1d6+5. Average DPR 22 over an hour.

Different classes deal with damage mitigation differently. The Rogue skirmishes into and out of the fight to avoid retaliation. The Barbarian takes more damage but flatly reduces it. The Ranger uses self-healing spells.

I mean to be fair how is the Rogue getting Sneak Attack damage if he is the only one attacking the enemy?

Also the Barbarian can use poison like the Rogue as well if he wants to, nothing stopping him.

Also by normalizing both chances to hit you are doing a great disservice to the Barbarian and his Reckless Attack which gives him advantage on attack rolls.

[Steampunkette]

I mean to be fair how is the Rogue getting Sneak Attack damage if he is the only one attacking the enemy?

Also the Barbarian can use poison like the Rogue as well if he wants to, nothing stopping him.

Also by normalizing both chances to hit you are doing a great disservice to the Barbarian and his Reckless Attack which gives him advantage on attack rolls.

Because we're not white-rooming and instead assuming that there are other people around to give the Rogue the option of getting sneak attack damage. And while the Barbarian has the option of using poison, the Rogue makes poison for free with the Poisoner's kit. Or, rather, makes poisons without expending gold on it. It's a function of being an Assassin where it's not a function of being a Frenzied Berserker.

That said, apply poison to all of the presented DPRs. The Ranger winds up dealing 29 DPR for 1 minute.

Also, the Zerk is only dealing that much damage for 9 rounds (54 seconds). I keep forgetting they lose the first round's Bonus-Action-Attack to Raging. Silly me! So 29 for 1 minute and 22 for an hour vs 23 for 54 seconds.

You're right about Reckless Attack, though. It's a great way to get more DPR compared to people who can't gain advantage at the drop of a hat... at the cost of taking more damage, yourself.

[Shaofoo]

Because we're not white-rooming and instead assuming that there are other people around to give the Rogue the option of getting sneak attack damage. And while the Barbarian has the option of using poison, the Rogue makes poison for free with the Poisoner's kit. Or, rather, makes poisons without expending gold on it. It's a function of being an Assassin where it's not a function of being a Frenzied Berserker.

That said, apply poison to all of the presented DPRs. The Ranger winds up dealing 29 DPR for 1 minute.

Also, the Zerk is only dealing that much damage for 9 rounds (54 seconds). I keep forgetting they lose the first round's Bonus-Action-Attack to Raging. Silly me! So 29 for 1 minute and 22 for an hour vs 23 for 54 seconds.

You're right about Reckless Attack, though. It's a great way to get more DPR compared to people who can't gain advantage at the drop of a hat... at the cost of taking more damage, yourself.

Nothing about gaining poison for free with the poisoner's kit, just get proficiency bonus when making poison. It is assumed that you will always spend gold or whatever the DM says you make. There is nothing from the Assassin that lets you make poisons by itself as a class ability.

And while it is true that the Barbarian will be taking more damage on average it is still somewhat mitigated by the Rage's resistance and if they are in melee range then they'll be mostly be taking that. Besides you can't really say that it is a disadvantage when it comes to DPR, you might as well say that when you use Hunter's Mark you waste a slot that you can't get back until you have a long rest, it is a double standard that you put attention to the Barbarian's vulnerability and not the Ranger's much more limited resources (also not mentioning that Hunter's Mark is concentration so it can be dispelled at any time you take damage).

[N810]

If the Barbarian is taking damage instead of other party members,
then he is doing his job, if he was hard to hit, then the monsters
would pick another target, you are after all supposed to be the
meat shield of the party after all. that is why you get damage reduction
and all those hit points for.

[gfishfunk]

I now really want to run a frenzy Barbarian to get a better feel for it.

I'm in the fence on some aspects:

1. Some folks don't care about the out of combat experience and will let other players deal with it. That is NOT my style, but some people play that way. Frenzy is less bad for that style.

2. The barbarian is not useless after Frenzy, but is dissuaded from interactions outside of combat. While the cost might be appropriate per damage, the 'fun cost' of being unable to meaningfully contribute makes the cost spike. Meaningful contribution is not a huge sell for me personally though. All of my characters have a huge combat focus precisely because I don't feel like I need help outside of combat- I do tons of RP, and I can think outside the box to solve problems just fine. Failing can be fun RP-wise. So can exhaustion. As far as fun from winning a game versus fun from playing a character, exhaustion is not fun for gaming and fun for playing a character. "THUNK NO WANT WALKIE TIME. THUNK WANT SLEEP. THERE, THUNK HAVE FRIEND UNICORN."

3. Damage calculations should heavily favor Barbarian Frenzy because the class HAS very little alternative non combat utility. Rogue had a lot of non combat utility and still does good damage. Barbarian can take a hit, but should be a high pinnacle of damage output. That is my vote of barbarian.

4. I rarely see more than five encounters per day. That might just be my groups. I even try to provide incentives to do additional encounters. Fewer encounters favor the Frenzy Barbarian, needless to say.

[Shaofoo]

I now really want to run a frenzy Barbarian to get a better feel for it.

I'm in the fence on some aspects:

1. Some folks don't care about the out of combat experience and will let other players deal with it. That is NOT my style, but some people play that way. Frenzy is less bad for that style.

2. The barbarian is not useless after Frenzy, but is dissuaded from interactions outside of combat. While the cost might be appropriate per damage, the 'fun cost' of being unable to meaningfully contribute makes the cost spike. Meaningful contribution is not a huge sell for me personally though. All of my characters have a huge combat focus precisely because I don't feel like I need help outside of combat- I do tons of RP, and I can think outside the box to solve problems just fine. Failing can be fun RP-wise. So can exhaustion. As far as fun from winning a game versus fun from playing a character, exhaustion is not fun for gaming and fun for playing a character. "THUNK NO WANT WALKIE TIME. THUNK WANT SLEEP. THERE, THUNK HAVE FRIEND UNICORN."

3. Damage calculations should heavily favor Barbarian Frenzy because the class HAS very little alternative non combat utility. Rogue had a lot of non combat utility and still does good damage. Barbarian can take a hit, but should be a high pinnacle of damage output. That is my vote of barbarian.

4. I rarely see more than five encounters per day. That might just be my groups. I even try to provide incentives to do additional encounters. Fewer encounters favor the Frenzy Barbarian, needless to say.

The only thing that was guaranteed out of combat is the Barbarian being strong, he will not be the face or do any more nuanced things. That isn't to say that he can't be those things (especially with the background, can totally have a Sage Barbarian that is a scholar). But for what it is worth you when it comes to Strength checks you can use your Rage to deal with the disadvantage of skill checks if you really want to. Heck at later levels they can just put their Strength Score as their skill result. Maybe this is typecasting but I can't think of something skillwise that a Barbarian can do that another class can do better even superficially besides being super strong and maybe quick. You are basically dedicated to Str, Con and Dex so mental stats will take a big hit. (Which is why the fear ability is also likewise useless, even more useless than Frenzy because at least Frenzy does something).

[MadBear]

Because we're not white-rooming and instead assuming that there are other people around to give the Rogue the option of getting sneak attack damage. And while the Barbarian has the option of using poison, the Rogue makes poison for free with the Poisoner's kit. Or, rather, makes poisons without expending gold on it. It's a function of being an Assassin where it's not a function of being a Frenzied Berserker.

That said, apply poison to all of the presented DPRs. The Ranger winds up dealing 29 DPR for 1 minute.

Also, the Zerk is only dealing that much damage for 9 rounds (54 seconds). I keep forgetting they lose the first round's Bonus-Action-Attack to Raging. Silly me! So 29 for 1 minute and 22 for an hour vs 23 for 54 seconds.

You're right about Reckless Attack, though. It's a great way to get more DPR compared to people who can't gain advantage at the drop of a hat... at the cost of taking more damage, yourself.

yes, you take more damage with reckless attack, but if we're comparing DPR, then you need to include the to-hit chance when making these comparisons.

[gfishfunk]

The only thing that was guaranteed out of combat is the Barbarian being strong, he will not be the face or do any more nuanced things. That isn't to say that he can't be those things (especially with the background, can totally have a Sage Barbarian that is a scholar). But for what it is worth you when it comes to Strength checks you can use your Rage to deal with the disadvantage of skill checks if you really want to. Heck at later levels they can just put their Strength Score as their skill result. Maybe this is typecasting but I can't think of something skillwise that a Barbarian can do that another class can do better even superficially besides being super strong and maybe quick. You are basically dedicated to Str, Con and Dex so mental stats will take a big hit. (Which is why the fear ability is also likewise useless, even more useless than Frenzy because at least Frenzy does something).

Nothing is guaranteed, certainly. I don't generally have a party face, though. Everyone can always contribute something, and should.

I tend to run 4e style skill checks where everyone contributes either a pass or a fail. I try to keep them dynamic, so success and approaches have impact and reshape the challenge. Barbarians would hinder this immensely after a Frenzy.

[Shaofoo]

Nothing is guaranteed, certainly. I don't generally have a party face, though. Everyone can always contribute something, and should.

I tend to run 4e style skill checks where everyone contributes either a pass or a fail. I try to keep them dynamic, so success and approaches have impact and reshape the challenge. Barbarians would hinder this immensely after a Frenzy.

I also would do something where everyone is participating even when they don't notice it but also something that a lot of people don't seem to get is that you aren't supposed to use a check for everything unlike other editions. You can talk to someone without making a Diplomacy check or buy something without haggling them over it, you can find stuff in a library without having to roll for Knowledge all the time. If the big strong Barbarian that has murdered three goblins tries to intimidate the last one you should just let him instead of trying to get him to roll (even if you give him circumstantial bonuses).

There should be much less reliance on skill checks as a whole when it comes to just doing things. I don't think that a Barbarian should somehow fail while talking with the nobleman unless you say that part of his exhaustion includes insulting the nobleman to represent his penalty to Diplomacy.

[N810]

found a greatly debated chart over here...
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411237-Alternative-Frenzy-feature-Does-it-balance-better

http://i.imgur.com/Ki93UcR.png

[gfishfunk]

There should be much less reliance on skill checks as a whole when it comes to just doing things. I don't think that a Barbarian should somehow fail while talking with the nobleman unless you say that part of his exhaustion includes insulting the nobleman to represent his penalty to Diplomacy.

Right, which is why I am personally fine with exhaustion in my RP, but less fine with it as a game mechanic for others that rely on levers to deal with out of combat experience which is a totally valid way of playing. When skill checks to accomplish stuff is called for, the Frenzy Barbarian is awful.

[DanyBallon]

Regarding the impact of exhaustion on skill checks, on many time do you actually roll for them in a typical session?

As for personal experience, coming from 3.P, we were used to call skill checks for everything. After playing more and more 5e and rereading the rules about skills a few times, we manage to drop skill checks by about 80% by playing them as suggested in the PHB. Maybe this is one of the reason why I don't see disadvantage as being as crippling as some other.

[gfishfunk]

I try to call for a decent amount of skill checks in a variety of areas over the course of an adventure, but presented with flexibility for player creativity and improvisation.

I want my players to feel well invested when they have a skill check, lacking when they lack something as a group, and set back when they fail so that the checks matter.

[Desamir]

People just can't accept that they have to think in order to play a berserker. Play a blastlock if you want it easy.

Yeah, berserker is a real thinking man's class.


Let me ask then.

If you have a class that is better then the other classes at dealing damage, even without frenzy, how do you balance that against, frenzy when it will make them do even more damage?

I would force them to grant advantage to all attackers to achieve that DPR. Wait a minute...


My best guess, would be to take away exhaustion, and make it a once per long rest ability. That way a fighter gets a solid round of awesomeness once per short rest, and the barbarian get's a full combat of action once per long rest.

That's the only way I see this being balanced, without toning down the barbarian overall.

I would make it once per short rest (but still rage-limited). Compare to Vow of Enmity. That would make it actually competitive with Totem Warrior.

[MadBear]

I would force them to grant advantage to all attackers to achieve that DPR. Wait a minute...

That is what reckless attack gets you. That is not a frenzy thing. You're comparing apples and oranges




I would make it once per short rest (but still rage-limited). Compare to Vow of Enmity. That would make it actually competitive with Totem Warrior.

Vow of emnity gets you advantage against a single enemy once per short rest. That is not nearly as powerful as an additional attack (which also will get advantage) against every enemy that battle.

[Desamir]

That is what reckless attack gets you. That is not a frenzy thing. You're comparing apples and oranges

Your position is that Frenzy is fine as-is, because baseline Barbarians have great DPR already. My response is that in order to get great DPR in the first place, Barbarians have to Reckless Attack, which has a major downside. Until you take that downside into account somehow, your claim doesn't really hold water.


Vow of emnity gets you advantage against a single enemy once per short rest. That is not nearly as powerful as an additional attack (which also will get advantage) against every enemy that battle.

Frenzy is also still rage-limited. I think it's a reasonable compromise. I don't mind giving Berserkers the niche of beating Totem Barbarians in DPR a few combats per day, without downside. They currently do not fill that niche effectively, which is partly why they're so unpopular.

[Steampunkette]

Ultimately, there are three camps.

1. Frenzy is Fine, and exhaustion is the only reasonable penalty.
2. Frenzy has too steep a penalty and it should be reduced or at least a different penalty.
3. Frenzy has too steep a penalty and there should be no penalty.

For my part I fall solidly in camp 2.

I think this discussion has, once again, run it's course and we should just let it go. I hope some people in camps 1 and 3 use what has been put forth, here, and either find a middle ground at their tables or find good reasons upon which to debate further discussion at the table.

I'll be stepping out, here, but I want to thank everyone who discussed this with me, regardless of whether out feelings changed, one way or the other.

:smallsmile:

[Dudu]

Let me ask then.

If you have a class that is better then the other classes at dealing damage, even without frenzy, how do you balance that against, frenzy when it will make them do even more damage?

My best guess, would be to take away exhaustion, and make it a once per long rest ability. That way a fighter gets a solid round of awesomeness once per short rest, and the barbarian get's a full combat of action once per long rest.

That's the only way I see this being balanced, without toning down the barbarian overall.
Could work.

But you know what is my biggest issue with exhaustion? It's not it's effect.

It's the recovery. One long rest to recover one point of exhaustion. That or a 5th lvl cleric spell.
If there was a way to recover exhaustion faster.

Say, just like you can use Lay on Hands to actually heal other stuff, such as diseases, you could heal exhaustion by expending Hit Dies on short rests. That seems reasonable and balanced to me. If a battered adventurer, on death's door, with less than 10% of his total HP, can recover all his hitpoints and half his hit dies in a long rest, what's so spectacular about exhaustion that it would need the same procedure to recover only a single level of it?

[Vogonjeltz]

Well, barbarians don't get methods of removing exhaustion, so that'll be a problem.

Every method that exists is class Agnostic in terms of capacity to access; the Barbarian can pay for spell services (even without a Cleric in the party), purchase/quest for potions, etcetera. As such, I wouldn't worry overly.If frenzy was some rare and powerful ability, maybe


If frenzy was some rare and powerful ability, maybe

Frenzy is a rare and powerful ability.

Bonus action attacks that work with 2h weapons (i.e. Greataxe and Greatsword) and don't require some event to proc them simply don't exist outside Frenzy.


Right, it's a team game and as such it's inappropriate to expect other players to waste level 5 spell slots all so you can use an ability that is worse than Haste, a level 3 spell.

It's not a waste of a slot, it's removing a debuff, which is the entire point of that spell. Haste is ok, but you lose an entire round of attacks when it ends, and it requires at least a 5th level Wizard, and it's limited by spell slot availability, none of which are required for Frenzy. Of course, you can also stack Frenzy and Haste, making Frenzy even more appealing.


Using it once is crippling
Also, frenzy only gives about about 3 or 4 extra damage per round.

Once is disadvantage on ability checks which is not inclusive of attack rolls. Technically the Berserker isn't really in trouble until exhaustion level 4 thanks to Reckless Attack, and even then it's not going to be a problem if they're already down hp since it's just the cap that gets reduced. I wouldn't advise someone to do that except under extreme circumstances where they absolutely needed to keep outputting alot of damage, but it's nice that it's an option.

Emphasis goes on Option.

Also, Frenzy alone is worth 6.4 damage per round against an AC 16 target at level 3 (assuming greataxe, only +3 str mod, no reckless, half orc) and 9.8925 per round with reckless attack on (which is pretty much is guaranteed to be) using the same assumptions.


Depends on the DM.

This doesn't make sense.

He literally said it's an actual game not a hypothetical one...which is what White Room refers to, a hypothetical scenario divorced from real game play.

Can you explain why you think it depends on the DM?


Obviously it is a minor bump with while frenzying with PAM as the BA is now 1d10 instead of 1d4

In terms of opportunity cost, don't get PAM, just take the +2 ASI to str, it increases damage by 1 on all attacks (so, +3) and the Barbarian hits more often than they would have (i.e. additional dpr, and now you can just use a greataxe which nets more damage on critical hits and more damage on all attacks (+1 to each again) and the bonus attack is now a d12 instead of a d4. Which dramatically increases the damage and the crit damage of the bonus attack.

PAM is a trap option for a Barbarian, much more so for a Berserker, because it carries a massive opportunity cost in return for a minor increase to reach that, usually, proves to provide no benefit.


I'm not saying to get rid of exhaustion at all, just suspend it while raging/frenzying, same thing mindless rage does for fear and charm.

Given that attacks aren't affected until exhaustion level 4(!) this seems like it's just a perception management change, rather than anything concrete. Which I'd say is fine, but would mostly serve to demonstrate that anyone swayed by it had an objection with no factual basis.


2. I don't feel the extra damage is that big to be honest. The extra damage isn't bigger than the one granted by Great Weapon Mastery.

GWM: +10 damage per attack, -5 attacks that hit per 20; Crit/kill offers bonus attack)
vs
+2 Str and Frenzy (bonus attack, +1 attacks that hit per 20, all attacks deal +1 damage)

Base damage: (1d12+5 x 9 + 2d12+5 x 1)/20
GWM: (1d12+15 x 4 + 2d12+15) / 20 + (1d12+15x4+2d12+15)x.05
ASI+Frenzy: 2 x ((1d12+6 x 10 + 2d12+6)/20)

Base damage: 6.075
GWM: 5.985
ASI+Frenzy: 14.4

Frenzy and ASI are a little over twice the damage output of GWM against a target with AC 16.

w/reckless (advantage), same target.
.6525 + .0975
Base damage: 9.25875
GWM: 11.0189
ASI+Frenzy: 21.205

Just about twice the damage output. GWM is nice, but it isn't equivalent.

Based on the math involved, the damage is bigger and feelings don't come into it.


Basically every class and subclass can find a way to deal acceptable damage, even a lore bard.

That depends entirely on what you mean by "acceptable". It's not a particularly effective term as what I find acceptable, you might not, and vice versa.

Frenzy demonstrably increases damage output to well beyond what other classes are likely to reach.


If you're a Barbarian with a Criminal background since the party didn't have a skill-monkey (Danger Sense and big HD help with failed trap-catching) and you've frenzied once: The whole group is SoL when you're trying to disarm traps at disadvantage.

A good reason not to be a Criminal Berserker and expect to act as if you're a trained Thief. Not a good reason not to be a Berserker.


At level 3 the Rogue is throwing out 1d6+5, 1d6, and 2d6 damage. Average DPR 19 if they hit with both attacks, indefinitely.

Adjusted for AC (let's say 16, same as above, also adjusting that +5, which is impossible at level 3 as there's no ASI for rogues until 4, to a realistic +3), the Rogue is looking at damage output of: 10.6 DPR (3.425 + 1.925 + 5.25); note: the average 7 damage from sneak attack is adjusted for the turns on which they miss both attacks, which happens 25% of the time against a target they have a 50% hit rate for.

10.6 all the time vs 21.205 for 10 rounds; Seems fair.

You also made an error with the poison, it only works once (DMG 257) . So it costs an action (a round of damage), is worth only 2.5 damage average, and of course this also gets modified by the chance the subject makes their save for no damage at all. Only useful if you can apply it before combat.

Crawford tweet on the poison: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/719942025081040896


I also would do something where everyone is participating even when they don't notice it but also something that a lot of people don't seem to get is that you aren't supposed to use a check for everything unlike other editions. You can talk to someone without making a Diplomacy check or buy something without haggling them over it, you can find stuff in a library without having to roll for Knowledge all the time. If the big strong Barbarian that has murdered three goblins tries to intimidate the last one you should just let him instead of trying to get him to roll (even if you give him circumstantial bonuses).

There should be much less reliance on skill checks as a whole when it comes to just doing things. I don't think that a Barbarian should somehow fail while talking with the nobleman unless you say that part of his exhaustion includes insulting the nobleman to represent his penalty to Diplomacy.

Not to mention that groups checks aren't even appropriate unless the entire group is attempting to participate in it.

Social Interaction specifically depends solely on those who participate, per the DMG rules. If the Bard does all the talking, nobody else rolls.

I understand that with the way gfishfunk runs things exhaustion is problematic, but that's going to happen when you start deviating substantially from the rules, anything connected to those rules is going to be all out of balance as a result.

[Dudu]

GWM: +10 damage per attack, -5 attacks that hit per 20; Crit/kill offers bonus attack)
vs
+2 Str and Frenzy (bonus attack, +1 attacks that hit per 20, all attacks deal +1 damage)

Base damage: (1d12+5 x 9 + 2d12+5 x 1)/20
GWM: (1d12+15 x 4 + 2d12+15) / 20 + (1d12+15x4+2d12+15)x.05
ASI+Frenzy: 2 x ((1d12+6 x 10 + 2d12+6)/20)

Base damage: 6.075
GWM: 5.985
ASI+Frenzy: 14.4

Frenzy and ASI are a little over twice the damage output of GWM against a target with AC 16.

w/reckless (advantage), same target.
.6525 + .0975
Base damage: 9.25875
GWM: 11.0189
ASI+Frenzy: 21.205

Just about twice the damage output. GWM is nice, but it isn't equivalent.

Based on the math involved, the damage is bigger and feelings don't come into it.

You could clarify some aspects of this calc.

First, we are talking about the exactly same character, side by side, except one has frenzy and invest 2 points in Str by lvl 4, while the other does not and acquired GWM instead. I'm assuming this is the case, but I just want to make it clear.

Second, we are assuming 50% base hit chance with that 5% crit chance too. This one I indeed want more clarification, albeit only in the GMW extra atk part. Where did the 0.05 number arrived? Are you counting with crits alone?

Aye, the damage is bigger... for that precious window where the berserker managed to have an extra atk while no other martial class did. In fact, this is exactly what we expect from some guy who can attack twice while the others only attack once. Hell, right when the berserker receive it the frenzy bonus can be huge. Not only because it basically double it's damage output, but because I low level party usually requires more downtime anyways, which will allow the barbarian to rest.

Bravo, but that's about to change very quickly, isn't it? The very next level, the martial guys are receiving a second attack. That's a huge bonus, since now frenzy's damage increase drops from ~100% to ~50%. The exhaustion, however, is hitting just as hard.

And again, white room when is convenient. The party has no way to buff that barbarian. That's actually a very interesting point. A point that bring why I value my "feeling", hailing from experiencing a barbarian frenzying in tabletop, over your calc. Say a sorcerer twinned a haste on both, suddenly that gap closes further. You can put a bless over too. With a martial guy having the team supporting him, and struggling to have conditions favoring him, I'd say he could surpass the damage.

How I know? Because we did it. I was the cleric, and another friend was the sorc. The melee in case wasn't a barbarian, but a fighter. Not as good comparison as a totem barbarian for analysing frenzy, but it will do. That guy managed to hit all his attacks against a wyvern except one. He didn't roll exceptionally high, afaik. Just had good buffs.

We could, theoretically, but 2 lvl 4 barbarians and experiment, and I think we would see what you exposed. The berserker would defeat the totem. Pass that level, and the advantage gets smaller and smaller. Such thing doesn't happen with totem's features.

You picked a very narrow window to support your argument, I hope you realize it. Not just the number of attacks, but also the Str bump. Str is capped at 20 anyway. That +4 str mod the frenzy barbarian got can be simulated with an uncommon item. All those factors that exist in tabletop play that you seem to ignore.
I'll keep my opinion. That frenzy is costly and the benefits aren't huge. You tried to argue that the benefits were, indeed, huge, but by picking 1/10 of the whole character progression won't do.

[Puh Laden]

Frenzy is a rare and powerful ability.

Bonus action attacks that work with 2h weapons (i.e. Greataxe and Greatsword) and don't require some event to proc them simply don't exist outside Frenzy.



While PAM does require you to take the attack action with the polearm to use the bonus action attack, that's what a frenzying barbarian is going to want to be doing most of the time anyway, unless the player specifically has a particular build in mind, like a grappling one.

Assuming variant human at level 4, point-buying max strength, and all attacks hit (which is generous to frenzy)
With GWF and PAM at level 4 (therefore 16 STR), it's 1d10+1d4+30 consistently (with that d4 upgrading to a second d10 on crits with the first attack). Also this barbarian was granting advantage to their allies/keeping their rage by dashing/getting less damage from AoEs, etc. Also they have reach and more opportunity attacks.

vs

with GWF and ASI at level 4 (therefore 18 STR) 2d6+16 consistently, 4d6+32 during frenzy at the cost of exhaustion. Therefore, on average performing worse at strength checks than the 16 STR barbarian after frenzy. EDIT: And even if you switch out that ASI for PAM and decide to switch out your glaive to a greatsword when you frenzy, that still only upgrades from 5.5+2.5+30 = 38 to 14+30 = 44, plus you're taking more damage/not keeping your rage in emergencies/not giving allies advantage.

EDIT: forgot rage damage

[djreynolds]

Vogonjeltz you are 100% correct

This is a good assessment of the power of a BA with a great axe vs a dagger, why war cleric even for 5 times a day is a sweet pick up for its BA with a great weapon

Players will take War cleric for its perk, up to 5 extra BA... with a great weapon

Though I agree 100% with your damage assessment and the power of maxing strength and the static damage modifier, and having a great axe instead of a dagger as your

Rage lasts for 1 minute, 10 rounds and that BA is only for 9 of those max.

So frenzy gives you 9 BA.... and a level of exhaustion, war cleric gives you 5 BA a day.

AC 16, really:smallbiggrin: hobgoblins at 4th level

[Vogonjeltz]

You could clarify some aspects of this calc.

First, we are talking about the exactly same character, side by side, except one has frenzy and invest 2 points in Str by lvl 4, while the other does not and acquired GWM instead. I'm assuming this is the case, but I just want to make it clear.

Second, we are assuming 50% base hit chance with that 5% crit chance too. This one I indeed want more clarification, albeit only in the GMW extra atk part. Where did the 0.05 number arrived? Are you counting with crits alone?

Aye, the damage is bigger... for that precious window where the berserker managed to have an extra atk while no other martial class did. In fact, this is exactly what we expect from some guy who can attack twice while the others only attack once. Hell, right when the berserker receive it the frenzy bonus can be huge. Not only because it basically double it's damage output, but because I low level party usually requires more downtime anyways, which will allow the barbarian to rest.

Bravo, but that's about to change very quickly, isn't it? The very next level, the martial guys are receiving a second attack. That's a huge bonus, since now frenzy's damage increase drops from ~100% to ~50%. The exhaustion, however, is hitting just as hard.

And again, white room when is convenient. The party has no way to buff that barbarian. That's actually a very interesting point. A point that bring why I value my "feeling", hailing from experiencing a barbarian frenzying in tabletop, over your calc. Say a sorcerer twinned a haste on both, suddenly that gap closes further. You can put a bless over too. With a martial guy having the team supporting him, and struggling to have conditions favoring him, I'd say he could surpass the damage.

How I know? Because we did it. I was the cleric, and another friend was the sorc. The melee in case wasn't a barbarian, but a fighter. Not as good comparison as a totem barbarian for analysing frenzy, but it will do. That guy managed to hit all his attacks against a wyvern except one. He didn't roll exceptionally high, afaik. Just had good buffs.

We could, theoretically, but 2 lvl 4 barbarians and experiment, and I think we would see what you exposed. The berserker would defeat the totem. Pass that level, and the advantage gets smaller and smaller. Such thing doesn't happen with totem's features.

You picked a very narrow window to support your argument, I hope you realize it. Not just the number of attacks, but also the Str bump. Str is capped at 20 anyway. That +4 str mod the frenzy barbarian got can be simulated with an uncommon item. All those factors that exist in tabletop play that you seem to ignore.
I'll keep my opinion. That frenzy is costly and the benefits aren't huge. You tried to argue that the benefits were, indeed, huge, but by picking 1/10 of the whole character progression won't do.

The .05 was the probability of having a bonus action from GWM, prior to reckless attack, that goes up to .0975 with advantage. The chance to hit is entirely dependent on the oppositions AC of course, and there is a sweet spot where you want to use GWM, and a dip area in the curve where using it is a net loss.


While PAM does require you to take the attack action with the polearm to use the bonus action attack, that's what a frenzying barbarian is going to want to be doing most of the time anyway, unless the player specifically has a particular build in mind, like a grappling one.

Assuming variant human at level 4, point-buying max strength, and all attacks hit (which is generous to frenzy)
With GWF and PAM at level 4 (therefore 16 STR), it's 1d10+1d4+30 consistently (with that d4 upgrading to a second d10 on crits with the first attack). Also this barbarian was granting advantage to their allies/keeping their rage by dashing/getting less damage from AoEs, etc. Also they have reach and more opportunity attacks.

vs

with GWF and ASI at level 4 (therefore 18 STR) 2d6+16 consistently, 4d6+32 during frenzy at the cost of exhaustion. Therefore, on average performing worse at strength checks than the 16 STR barbarian after frenzy. EDIT: And even if you switch out that ASI for PAM and decide to switch out your glaive to a greatsword when you frenzy, that still only upgrades from 5.5+2.5+30 = 38 to 14+30 = 44, plus you're taking more damage/not keeping your rage in emergencies/not giving allies advantage.

EDIT: forgot rage damage

Bear in mind the Berserker could instead be a Half-Orc (+2 strength, an extra die on Crits), with Savage Attacker for effective advantage on damage, which is most powerful on a high hit die weapon (i.e. A d12) and for a Barbarian off a crit (brutal attacks)


Vogonjeltz you are 100% correct

This is a good assessment of the power of a BA with a great axe vs a dagger, why war cleric even for 5 times a day is a sweet pick up for its BA with a great weapon

Players will take War cleric for its perk, up to 5 extra BA... with a great weapon

Though I agree 100% with your damage assessment and the power of maxing strength and the static damage modifier, and having a great axe instead of a dagger as your

Rage lasts for 1 minute, 10 rounds and that BA is only for 9 of those max.

So frenzy gives you 9 BA.... and a level of exhaustion, war cleric gives you 5 BA a day.

AC 16, really:smallbiggrin: hobgoblins at 4th level

True, although the Cleric only has one attack, and they don't have the option of blowing it out and doing more than 5 rounds, while a Zerk could do two in a day if they really wanted to. (Granted they have to pay it back later, but it wouldn't hamper their combat ability even then.)

[djreynolds]

I think more people need to try it out, in game for a better analysis

Frenzy is so so. Powerful, yes but 9 uses for 10 rounds.

I'm here for mindless rage,

I only went to 8th level and just maxed out strength. I didn't bother with any feats. But sometimes in campaigns you sort of know if that last big battle is coming.

I went for most of the campaign with 1 level of exhaustion.... its why you have a rogue and fighter in the party.... stability

[Puh Laden]

Bear in mind the Berserker could instead be a Half-Orc (+2 strength, an extra die on Crits), with Savage Attacker for effective advantage on damage, which is most powerful on a high hit die weapon (i.e. A d12) and for a Barbarian off a crit (brutal attacks)



The half orc gets the same strength modifier with point buy and savage attacker is not going to be better than GWF+PAM. It's still maximum of nine rounds for a BA Attack vs every round.

[Vogonjeltz]

The half orc gets the same strength modifier with point buy and savage attacker is not going to be better than GWF+PAM. It's still maximum of nine rounds for a BA Attack vs every round.

You can only point buy up to 15, so throwing away an ASI on PAM is a mistake. Do the math, it's a worse outcome.

[Puh Laden]

You can only point buy up to 15, so throwing away an ASI on PAM is a mistake. Do the math, it's a worse outcome.

Both are outside of rage:

Level four Variant human with GWF + PAM and 16 STR

+5 (base to hit) -5 (GWF) ~+4 (reckless) = ~+4 to hit 18.5 on average for the first attack and ~+4 to hit 15.5 on average with the second. Since you used AC 16 I will too.
That's 8/20 for both attacks. By my friend's calculations (because I'm on my phone) that's about a 69.5% chance to hit one or both attacks.

Level four half orc with 18 STR

Outside of frenzy the half-orc has ~+10 (again using reckless) to hit 10.5 on average (with that great axe). That's about a ~75% chance to hit. That's a decently sized increase chance to hit about a +1 overall but at the cost of anywhere from 5 to 8 (or even that rarer 23) damage.

But the play style doesn't sound very appealing either: you don't make any decisions except "do I reckless Attack? Do I go in a rage and maybe frenzy?" and that last one only when not exhausted. While the human has "do I reckless attack? Do I rage? Do I use GWF? On one or both attacks?" They also on average will have more choices of whom to attack because they have reach.

Edit did second calc wrong fix in a moment; fixed

[djreynolds]

The math on frenzy is solid, but you cannot use it every battle, and it used for 9 rounds out of 10.

I'm here for mindless rage, I used frenzy 1 day in the campaign, I never took a feat and just maxed strength to 20

[Cybren]

But the play style doesn't sound very appealing either: you don't make any decisions except "do I reckless Attack? Do I go in a rage and maybe frenzy?" and that last one only when not exhausted. While the human has "do I reckless attack? Do I rage? Do I use GWF? On one or both attacks?" They also on average will have more choices of whom to attack because they have reach.

So what you're saying is, this is not a class you are interested in playing, but that's not really an indictment of the class in and of itself. Lots of options and decisions appeal to some people, a smaller set of decisions you have to carefully ration appeal to other people, and having as few as possible appeal to others. That the classes are spread across that range is a strength of 5E and not a weakness.

[djreynolds]

So what you're saying is, this is not a class you are interested in playing, but that's not really an indictment of the class in and of itself. Lots of options and decisions appeal to some people, a smaller set of decisions you have to carefully ration appeal to other people, and having as few as possible appeal to others. That the classes are spread across that range is a strength of 5E and not a weakness.

IMO, very humbly, I think mindless rage makes up for frenzy, It saved my bacon is CoS, and later versus a dragon.

Bear totem can take damage yes, but fear/charm may take you out of rage and out of the fight

[suplee215]

Not reading the entire thing but if you want to fix Frenzy just let them be a battle rager with the spikes from Spiked armor on their skin for some reason (or ignoring the rules that wearing armor reduces your AC). May also require ruling the spikes as a heavy weapon (using your body weight to increase damage for GWM).

[Puh Laden]

So what you're saying is, this is not a class you are interested in playing, but that's not really an indictment of the class in and of itself. Lots of options and decisions appeal to some people, a smaller set of decisions you have to carefully ration appeal to other people, and having as few as possible appeal to others. That the classes are spread across that range is a strength of 5E and not a weakness.

True. 'Cept if you do want to just boil down to one routine you do every time, GWF+PAM with one of the totems let's you do that even better because you don't have to worry about long term risk-vs-reward as much as the berserker. Just always reckless Attack, always use GWF if you're hurting stop reckless attacking for the encounter, if you're missing stop using GWF for the encounter, if you're not missing don't stop.

[djreynolds]

True. 'Cept if you do want to just boil down to one routine you do every time, GWF+PAM with one of the totems let's you do that even better because you don't have to worry about long term risk-vs-reward as much as the berserker. Just always reckless Attack, always use GWF if you're hurting stop reckless attacking for the encounter, if you're missing stop using GWF for the encounter, if you're not missing don't stop.

We fought Grazzt, in a 20th level one fight, I was a bear totem barbarian 20th level... I spent half the fight running away

But I agree with your assessment on damage output, GWM+PAM on any totem barbarian is down right nasty

[Specter]

I love how everyone presumes that Totem is better than Berserker because Totem can take GWM+PAM. (?)

1) That requires a game that allows feats;

2) That only comes online without multiclassing at level 8 (or 4 if you are a Variant Human, another roadblock in terms of DM allowance);

3) You actually have to hit with your -5 attacks, and even with advantage a high-AC enemy will still block many of your attacks. This is where most of the theorycrafters go wrong (assuming it 'just hits');

4) Both Berserker and PAM Totem miss out on GWM's secondary crit/kill ability, because both of them already have bonus action attacks. But Berserker actually makes the most out of it, because they're not always on a Frenzy.

5) While Totem spent two ASI's on that, the Berserker could have spent it on better stuff (yes, there's better stuff than that!). You take GWM+PAM, I'll take Tough and Lucky. Let's see who survives the most (both in a duel and in general adventuring).

Don't believe the hype.

[Desamir]

I love how everyone presumes that Totem is better than Berserker because Totem can take GWM+PAM. (?)

1) That requires a game that allows feats;

This is a reasonable assumption to make, since it's allowed in AL. "Berserker is an attractive pick when feats aren't involved" is an argument based on a niche case. It's not going to convince people to start playing it (which is the primary problem).


2) That only comes online without multiclassing at level 8 (or 4 if you are a Variant Human, another roadblock in terms of DM allowance);

There are certainly levels when the Frenzy Barbarian will have a damage advantage for one combat per day. Is that worth exhaustion and losing out on totems? Most players say no.


3) You actually have to hit with your -5 attacks, and even with advantage a high-AC enemy will still block many of your attacks. This is where most of the theorycrafters go wrong (assuming it 'just hits');

The math shows that GWM provides a significant DPR boost with advantage.


4) Both Berserker and PAM Totem miss out on GWM's secondary crit/kill ability, because both of them already have bonus action attacks. But Berserker actually makes the most out of it, because they're not always on a Frenzy.

Not really. When you have GWM+PAM, on crits/kills you simply forgo the 1d4 attack and use the full damage attack instead.


5) While Totem spent two ASI's on that, the Berserker could have spent it on better stuff (yes, there's better stuff than that!). You take GWM+PAM, I'll take Tough and Lucky. Let's see who survives the most (both in a duel and in general adventuring).

With those feat combinations, the Totem Barbarian is doing significantly more damage, consistently, and without exhaustion. Bear Totem easily makes up for Tough when adventuring, particularly at higher levels when many monsters add magical damage to their attacks. I'd put all my money on the Bear Totem in that scenario.

[Specter]

This is a reasonable assumption to make, since it's allowed in AL. "Berserker is an attractive pick when feats aren't involved" is an argument based on a niche case. It's not going to convince people to start playing it (which is the primary problem).

There are certainly levels when the Frenzy Barbarian will have a damage advantage for one combat per day. Is that worth exhaustion and losing out on totems? Most players say no.

The math shows that GWM provides a significant DPR boost with advantage.

Not really. When you have GWM+PAM, on crits/kills you simply forgo the 1d4 attack and use the full damage attack instead.

With those feat combinations, the Totem Barbarian is doing significantly more damage, consistently, and without exhaustion. Bear Totem easily makes up for Tough when adventuring, particularly at higher levels when many monsters add magical damage to their attacks. I'd put all my money on the Bear Totem in that scenario.

I'm assuming Berserker is not even using Frenzy unless it's a boss fight, in cases where exhaustion won't matter afterwards. The other Berserker abilities are much better than Totem's.

After level 8 (if Totem grabbed both feats), Totem will have a DPR advantage (based on the premise below). Shame it only lasts until level 14, when Retaliation comes online for Berserker. No point in even trying to compare at 14 level Totem ability to that.

That DPR increase is assuming advantage (Reckless Attack). Any self-respecting Barbarian won't use that every round, especially not when ganged up on or low at hp.

A crit/kill with PAM will add +4 to average damage, while Berserker gets a whole new attack. I'll let you do the math.

Bear Totem might make up for Tough, if you face enemies with those energy types. And still, if Tough can potentially make up for Bear's main thing, like people claim GWM+PAM can do for Frenzy, then we're good to go.

And yet, the only claim you didn't dispute is probably the most factual: on a straight-up duel, Berserker would smash Totem silly. Gives you a hint at what they're good at (unlike Totem's party effects).

[DanyBallon]

This is a reasonable assumption to make, since it's allowed in AL. "Berserker is an attractive pick when feats aren't involved" is an argument based on a niche case. It's not going to convince people to start playing it (which is the primary problem).


While this is true, the game is still designed to be played without feat. Like all other classes the berserker was designed and balanced in a featless game.

Using feat in a game, even if it's the most popular option, is accepting that feat will unbalance some aspects of the game and may make some options less appealing. None the less, someone recently provided math that shows that berserker remain efficient and above the average DPRwise even in a game with feat.

[Dudu]

I love how everyone presumes that Totem is better than Berserker because Totem can take GWM+PAM. (?)

1) That requires a game that allows feats;

So, a fun game?

And really, both GWM and PAM? Doesn't sound like an optimized build to me.


2) That only comes online without multiclassing at level 8 (or 4 if you are a Variant Human, another roadblock in terms of DM allowance);
May I remind you that multiclass is as optional as feats.


3) You actually have to hit with your -5 attacks, and even with advantage a high-AC enemy will still block many of your attacks. This is where most of the theorycrafters go wrong (assuming it 'just hits');
"Most of the theorycrafters" I saw discussing the frenzy issue included the "to hit" ratio in their calc.

And only a fool would hit a high AC enemy with GWM on and no advantage. But if you want to bring the chance to miss, even with advantage, well, such is the risk. It's a more welcome tradeoff to have slight chance to miss than surely get one level of "suck" after the rage sets.
The biggest advantage GMW's tradeoff has over Frenzy's tradeoff, imo, is that you can decide on the fly. You're hitting a paladin in full plate? No GMW, just hit him. The soft wizard? Pump that damage, hard.


4) Both Berserker and PAM Totem miss out on GWM's secondary crit/kill ability, because both of them already have bonus action attacks. But Berserker actually makes the most out of it, because they're not always on a Frenzy.
No, the berserker would hesitate about even picking one of those wonderful feats thanks to their floppish class feature.

My own calculations included GWM alone. In my view, you put one or another. I can see how many people would try to pick both, but I'd rather pick one or another and then one other feat or +2 Str.


5) While Totem spent two ASI's on that, the Berserker could have spent it on better stuff (yes, there's better stuff than that!). You take GWM+PAM, I'll take Tough and Lucky. Let's see who survives the most (both in a duel and in general adventuring).
Pssst, you know what's nasty? GWM + Lucky. So, if you stop trying to build the totem barbarian so poorly, wasting your precious ASI on two non synergistic feats, he will start rocking.

You think the Berserker with Tough will survive more than the Totem? Yeah, perhaps in a duel. But in no way that guy is surviving more than the Totem on a normal adventurer day. Resist to all forms of damages is too much of a big deal. Resist a spell, a trap, a dragon breath, a natural fire. Tough is nice, but isn't making your barbarian survive more than the totem. And we all know which situation, duel or adventure day, occurs much more often at the table.

Again, back to the frenzy subject.

Frenzy is something that will have noticeable consequence the rest of the day. And if you dare use it more than once, those consequence might spill to the rest of week as well.

Meanwhile, you have options to use that bonus action. Feats were mentioned. But I would also point at spells. Haste can make a big, although underrated, difference. Sorcerers are good at that. However, haste isn't so used.

To compare with a more popular spell, I'd say Bless plays a big role at making GWM tradeoff much more manageable. Same for bardic inspiration.

The multiple ways to get bonuses to to-hit or extra attacks per turn avaible in this game favors the GWM totem (or PAM totem, if you insist) more than berserker.

[Specter]

So, a fun game?

And really, both GWM and PAM? Doesn't sound like an optimized build to me.

May I remind you that multiclass is as optional as feats.

"Most of the theorycrafters" I saw discussing the frenzy issue included the "to hit" ratio in their calc.

And only a fool would hit a high AC enemy with GWM on and no advantage. But if you want to bring the chance to miss, even with advantage, well, such is the risk. It's a more welcome tradeoff to have slight chance to miss than surely get one level of "suck" after the rage sets.
The biggest advantage GMW's tradeoff has over Frenzy's tradeoff, imo, is that you can decide on the fly. You're hitting a paladin in full plate? No GMW, just hit him. The soft wizard? Pump that damage, hard.

No, the berserker would hesitate about even picking one of those wonderful feats thanks to their floppish class feature.

My own calculations included GWM alone. In my view, you put one or another. I can see how many people would try to pick both, but I'd rather pick one or another and then one other feat or +2 Str.

Pssst, you know what's nasty? GWM + Lucky. So, if you stop trying to build the totem barbarian so poorly, wasting your precious ASI on two non synergistic feats, he will start rocking.

You think the Berserker with Tough will survive more than the Totem? Yeah, perhaps in a duel. But in no way that guy is surviving more than the Totem on a normal adventurer day. Resist to all forms of damages is too much of a big deal. Resist a spell, a trap, a dragon breath, a natural fire. Tough is nice, but isn't making your barbarian survive more than the totem. And we all know which situation, duel or adventure day, occurs much more often at the table.

Again, back to the frenzy subject.

Frenzy is something that will have noticeable consequence the rest of the day. And if you dare use it more than once, those consequence might spill to the rest of week as well.

Meanwhile, you have options to use that bonus action. Feats were mentioned. But I would also point at spells. Haste can make a big, although underrated, difference. Sorcerers are good at that. However, haste isn't so used.

To compare with a more popular spell, I'd say Bless plays a big role at making GWM tradeoff much more manageable. Same for bardic inspiration.

The multiple ways to get bonuses to to-hit or extra attacks per turn avaible in this game favors the GWM totem (or PAM totem, if you insist) more than berserker.

I don't care about optional rules; I allow all of them. But if you're preaching what's right or wrong, you have to understand the community doesn't always think like you.

The reason they bring up PAM is because it gives you a bonus action attack. Without that, there's really no comparison if you only have a brain to think about DPR.

And it seems you're assuming GWM is under copyright of Totem. Not really. The same benefits apply, except no barbarian is obligated to take it.

You're not resisting all kinds of damage, just combat damage. You're not using your rage to walk into a trap, even if you see it there. And forgetting that, as I said, Tough is guaranteed to be effective every day, all day. Bear Totem is situational. And anyway, the totem guy is not taking a dragon's breath to the face. He's running scared, far behind. You thought you'd make it with that 10-12WIS? Good one. Better hope the paladin can take that on his own.

What does Haste have to do with a bonus action? Sorcerers??? Have you even read the spell? And it's not 'perhaps' in a duel, it's 'absolutely' in a duel. Fixed that for you.

You don't want to involve spells and party members in the mix. Otherwise, I'll give all the platinum pieces I got in the dragon's lair to the cleric so he can give me that sweet Greater Restoration and use this stuff more than once a day, wrecking your whole math expertise.

I hardly care about Frenzy, which is a bad class feature, but you people seem to venerate Bear's situational goodness so much (which is also worse than Eagle and Wolf) that it makes me question if most people post here drunk or delusional.

[djreynolds]

For me, IMO, so very humbly.

It is between bear totem's 3rd ability and berserker's mindless rage.

That is what it comes down to.

For bear totem

Resilient wisdom is sweet, but most players are looking at +7 to +9 on wisdom saves. And hanging around with a paladin all day.... that could lead to you dying

You can throw GWM on top of that bonus action of PAM, cheesy but legal

When you are taking half damage from everything but psyche... you may not need toughness or more than a 16 con.

For Berserker

I may not take PAM, but I will take GWM... have to.

May not need resilient wisdom for fear or charm, but there is still hypnotic wave and hold person out there

You do not have to hang out with a suicidal paladin

I like all the archetypes, I just think exhaustion is bit much for 9BA in 10 rounds... even if they allowed it that while frenzying you would temporarily lose the exhaustion... I would go for that.

I'm just saying while raging your exhaustion is temporarily off. You are good for battle.

[Dudu]

I don't care about optional rules; I allow all of them. But if you're preaching what's right or wrong, you have to understand the community doesn't always think like you.
Expressing my opinion now is preaching, amusing. I have the impression your tone is more emphatic than my own, by the way.


The reason they bring up PAM is because it gives you a bonus action attack. Without that, there's really no comparison if you only have a brain to think about DPR.
Then again, read GWM. You are not doing that bonus without condition, that's the caveat. But that's when a good, tactical player trumps, try to profit the most from your features.

Plus, makes you think, how exactly conditional is that bonus action. Critical hits, sure, but killing? That's basically your job. Of course, that bonus action from GMW isn't fit for a duel, but for dispatching multiple enemies. And of course, you can give yourself a little boost and multiclass some champion, but I would only invest in fighter once I got 5 levels of bard.

In the one precious battle, frenzy will be a more noticeable increase in DPR than GWM, in a white room, of course. Pump the to hit chance and that difference decreases (again, bless comes to mind). Add the important fact that GWM option is always avaible, the only cost being the to-hit, which is manageable.


And it seems you're assuming GWM is under copyright of Totem. Not really. The same benefits apply, except no barbarian is obligated to take it.
Funny, it doesn't really seems I'm assuming anything.

I feel the berserker is discouraged to pick that feat, opposed to totem.


You're not resisting all kinds of damage, just combat damage. You're not using your rage to walk into a trap, even if you see it there.
Are we really having this conversation?

"Like, oh, look, a trap. Good thing I do have resitance to it's damage so I can get angry and then step on it."

Forgive me, I though it was without saying that this resitance would come in handy those times you don't see the trap. Like, in the heat of the battle against some thieves in their hideout and they have some poison darts or something. Not hard to imagine, really.


And forgetting that, as I said, Tough is guaranteed to be effective every day, all day.
Remember when you said one feat wasn't under copyright of a particular subclass?
Yeah, reread what you said and see if it applies to it.


Bear Totem is situational.
The Gem of your whole argument.

How on earth is resistence to all damage except psychic situational? Are you just trolling around? Because it seems you are trolling around. That or you don't even know what "situational" means.


And anyway, the totem guy is not taking a dragon's breath to the face. He's running scared, far behind. You thought you'd make it with that 10-12WIS? Good one. Better hope the paladin can take that on his own.
Who is saying about passing the save? Dude, take the ancient Red Dragon. He does 91 fire damage on his breath.
Yeah, the berserker might consider running. The totem can take 46 though, maybe even less if he pass in the save.
The difference between a bonafide melee and your beloved berserker.


What does Haste have to do with a bonus action? Sorcerers??? Have you even read the spell? And it's not 'perhaps' in a duel, it's 'absolutely' in a duel. Fixed that for you.
Reread my previous calc.

That extra attack you get from frenzy has diminished returns the more attacks you get to do per turn. Right when you get it, it's hot stuff. You attack twice on your turn while everyone else attacks once. That's about 100% more damage.
But as soon as every dedicated melee is attacking twice, the bonus drops to a less impressive 50%. And other means of increasing attacks per turn only narrows that gap.

And sorcerers, yes, is due to the fact they can twin haste. Are you new to this edition or what? It's one of the best uses of Twin Spell.

The duel part, I will repeat, I couldn't care less. Hardly comes at play anyway. Only a rookie would decide which build is stronger in a duel when the game involves huge ammounts of cooperation between PCs.
But if I want another teamplayer, a melee, I'd rather have someone who can endure the punishment and stay in melee than someone who is daydreaming about that extra attack he gets to do when he is extra pissed off, only to call it a day afterwards.


You don't want to involve spells and party members in the mix. Otherwise, I'll give all the platinum pieces I got in the dragon's lair to the cleric so he can give me that sweet Greater Restoration and use this stuff more than once a day, wrecking your whole math expertise.
Oh yeah, I wish.

Cleric player here. We keep doing the heavy lifting while you heavy hitters are dreaming with your DPR and getting smacked, draining our resources, when you could be less of a burden with some investment on defense. I would gladly take some platinum coins, yes. But I'd rather be followed by a competent melee instead. I mean, using our precious level 5 slots to fix your messed up class feature isn't my idea of fun. I can make a dragon a leper with one those slots (the dragon who is probably perplexed right now, after seeing the totem barbarian resist his breath). Or pump my Spirit Guardians to do a whooping 5d8 per turn, which averages more than your bonus attack from frenzy. Except I do it in an area, and I don't get exhausted from doing so (also, I slow the baddies).


I hardly care about Frenzy, which is a bad class feature, but you people seem to venerate Bear's situational goodness so much (which is also worse than Eagle and Wolf) that it makes me question if most people post here drunk or delusional.
Well, I guess that if you went strawman fallacy you wouldn't shy away from using ad hominem as well. Anyway, for the sake of the debate, I'll ignore this.

On to Bear's """""""situational""""""" feature, I gotta say: many times I wished my barbarian friend had that resistence. All those fights he would stay longer. The sad truth is... he has a harder time surviving than our GWM fighter. Even our monk is better at tanking than him (that bonus action dodge helps). To add insult to injury, the same fighter has a bigger DPR. And doesn't get exhausted by using his class features.

And the whole point of the thread is discuss the weakness of Frenzy. It seems we are on the same page there, at least in that subject.
But your arguments against Totem, however, are on the weak side.

[Specter]

Expressing my opinion now is preaching, amusing. I have the impression your tone is more emphatic than my own, by the way.

Then again, read GWM. You are not doing that bonus without condition, that's the caveat. But that's when a good, tactical player trumps, try to profit the most from your features.

Plus, makes you think, how exactly conditional is that bonus action. Critical hits, sure, but killing? That's basically your job. Of course, that bonus action from GMW isn't fit for a duel, but for dispatching multiple enemies. And of course, you can give yourself a little boost and multiclass some champion, but I would only invest in fighter once I got 5 levels of bard.

In the one precious battle, frenzy will be a more noticeable increase in DPR than GWM, in a white room, of course. Pump the to hit chance and that difference decreases (again, bless comes to mind). Add the important fact that GWM option is always avaible, the only cost being the to-hit, which is manageable.

Funny, it doesn't really seems I'm assuming anything.

I feel the berserker is discouraged to pick that feat, opposed to totem.

Are we really having this conversation?

"Like, oh, look, a trap. Good thing I do have resitance to it's damage so I can get angry and then step on it."

Forgive me, I though it was without saying that this resitance would come in handy those times you don't see the trap. Like, in the heat of the battle against some thieves in their hideout and they have some poison darts or something. Not hard to imagine, really.

Remember when you said one feat wasn't under copyright of a particular subclass?
Yeah, reread what you said and see if it applies to it.

The Gem of your whole argument.

How on earth is resistence to all damage except psychic situational? Are you just trolling around? Because it seems you are trolling around. That or you don't even know what "situational" means.

Who is saying about passing the save? Dude, take the ancient Red Dragon. He does 91 fire damage on his breath.
Yeah, the berserker might consider running. The totem can take 46 though, maybe even less if he pass in the save.
The difference between a bonafide melee and your beloved berserker.

Reread my previous calc.

That extra attack you get from frenzy has diminished returns the more attacks you get to do per turn. Right when you get it, it's hot stuff. You attack twice on your turn while everyone else attacks once. That's about 100% more damage.
But as soon as every dedicated melee is attacking twice, the bonus drops to a less impressive 50%. And other means of increasing attacks per turn only narrows that gap.

And sorcerers, yes, is due to the fact they can twin haste. Are you new to this edition or what? It's one of the best uses of Twin Spell.

The duel part, I will repeat, I couldn't care less. Hardly comes at play anyway. Only a rookie would decide which build is stronger in a duel when the game involves huge ammounts of cooperation between PCs.
But if I want another teamplayer, a melee, I'd rather have someone who can endure the punishment and stay in melee than someone who is daydreaming about that extra attack he gets to do when he is extra pissed off, only to call it a day afterwards.

Oh yeah, I wish.

Cleric player here. We keep doing the heavy lifting while you heavy hitters are dreaming with your DPR and getting smacked, draining our resources, when you could be less of a burden with some investment on defense. I would gladly take some platinum coins, yes. But I'd rather be followed by a competent melee instead. I mean, using our precious level 5 slots to fix your messed up class feature isn't my idea of fun. I can make a dragon a leper with one those slots (the dragon who is probably perplexed right now, after seeing the totem barbarian resist his breath). Or pump my Spirit Guardians to do a whooping 5d8 per turn, which averages more than your bonus attack from frenzy. Except I do it in an area, and I don't get exhausted from doing so (also, I slow the baddies).

Well, I guess that if you went strawman fallacy you wouldn't shy away from using ad hominem as well. Anyway, for the sake of the debate, I'll ignore this.

On to Bear's """""""situational""""""" feature, I gotta say: many times I wished my barbarian friend had that resistence. All those fights he would stay longer. The sad truth is... he has a harder time surviving than our GWM fighter. Even our monk is better at tanking than him (that bonus action dodge helps). To add insult to injury, the same fighter has a bigger DPR. And doesn't get exhausted by using his class features.

And the whole point of the thread is discuss the weakness of Frenzy. It seems we are on the same page there, at least in that subject.
But your arguments against Totem, however, are on the weak side.

There's this prolonged talk about DPR, DPR, DPR. Ok. So what are your ideas about Bear coming close to Berserker at 14th-level, when Retaliation comes online and you're basically attacking four times a turn? Because it's easy to crap on Berserker's worst class feature (that according to myself, SHOULDN'T EVEN BE USED UNTIL THE LAST FIGHT).

A duel is not a white-room scenario. Most of the time you're in melee with an enemy, you are locking him down and vice-versa, because nobody wants to take opportunity attacks. In those situations, Berserker is better. Or are those guys throwing acid at you instead? We seem to play very different games.

Now you're assuming that after you kill someone, you will find his buddy standing right next to him. Crits with advantage will be more common than that, I imagine.

Tough is far from Berserker's copyright. But if you take that instead of those two damaging feats, you're guaranteed to not do as much damage. My first post was about that. Of couse you could take GWM and PAM and Tough and Sentinel and Lucky, but nobody respects a 16STR Barbarian.

Twin spells have nothing to do with bonus actions, son. That's what I called you on.

"You heavy hitters"? Don't pretend to know me. I rarely play melee strikers, but that doesn't change the fact that the community overrates some things to no end and I end up dragged in argumenrs. My bad, won't post again.

From level 10+, it gets progressively more common to not use all your 5th-level slots in a day. When that happens the least a good 'cleric player' (?) will do is remove your 2nd level of exhaustion, if it even exists.

Bear's 3rd-level feature IS situational. Not just because it won't come into play on most combats, but because you can't assume you'll be the target of those other attack types. The enemy sees you all buffed up and the tiny Wizard, who do you think he'll cast his Blight on? Will you always be around to halve those fireballs, when they happen? And so on, I can keep going all day but I have to believe you understand. Eagle and Wolf give you strategy and synergy options, so whenever you're in battle, you can use them if you want. But instead they're mostly ignored because resisting the occasional elemental damage is apparently the greatest thing a Barbarian can do. Sigh.

I'm not against Totem, don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is
1) Bear is just as good or worse than Eagle and Wolf
2) Their high-level features totally disappoint compared to Berserker.

[Dudu]

There's this prolonged talk about DPR, DPR, DPR. Ok. So what are your ideas about Bear coming close to Berserker at 14th-level, when Retaliation comes online and you're basically attacking four times a turn? Because it's easy to crap on Berserker's worst class feature (that according to myself, SHOULDN'T EVEN BE USED UNTIL THE LAST FIGHT).
That reaction he got, all the way up in the 14th level, is good. But again, easily copied by a feat, and a good one at that, Sentinel. In fact, I think that this feat suits a more optimized build than, say, GWM. And remember PAM? Well, that reaction from PAM is even easier to achieve than your 14th level feature.

About frenzy, we focus on it because it's the subject of the thread. Some even argue that berserker IS strong, just that frenzy needs some rework.


A duel is not a white-room scenario. Most of the time you're in melee with an enemy, you are locking him down and vice-versa, because nobody wants to take opportunity attacks. In those situations, Berserker is better. Or are those guys throwing acid at you instead? We seem to play very different games.
It is a whiteroom, what is the rest of the party doing? Cheering? What about the other enemies? Just whatching?

I mean, no warlock blasting, or a cleric with Spirit Guardians on, or a artificer, and we are talking only about humanoid foes here. Take the whole monster manual spectrum and those sort of damage gets even more common.


Now you're assuming that after you kill someone, you will find his buddy standing right next to him. Crits with advantage will be more common than that, I imagine.
And why not? Not rare at all. Why would enemies bother locking thenselves in silly 1x1 duels when they can gang up on you?


Tough is far from Berserker's copyright. But if you take that instead of those two damaging feats, you're guaranteed to not do as much damage. My first post was about that. Of couse you could take GWM and PAM and Tough and Sentinel and Lucky, but nobody respects a 16STR Barbarian.
Yeah, but that's because berserker is more geared in doing damage. I say that's a lack of versality, but he fill his role and does well. The totem barbarian has a lot more to work with.


Twin spells have nothing to do with bonus actions, son. That's what I called you on.
:smallbiggrin:

It seems you are struggling hard to understand my point.

I discussed how the higher number of attacks decreases the influence of an extra attack before. Doing it again would be tiresome.

The sorcerer enter because he is efficient at hasting due to twin spell, nothing more. And nothing to do with bonus actions. That's all.


"You heavy hitters"? Don't pretend to know me. I rarely play melee strikers, but that doesn't change the fact that the community overrates some things to no end and I end up dragged in argumenrs. My bad, won't post again.
I apologize. But some heavy hitters do assume we, clerics and bards should babysit them.


From level 10+, it gets progressively more common to not use all your 5th-level slots in a day. When that happens the least a good 'cleric player' (?) will do is remove your 2nd level of exhaustion, if it even exists.
Indeed. But that's 100gp price tag. Both the spell slot as well as the gp is probably very accessible at this point. But still, what a bore. And really, after the lvl 10 is that you are finally dealing with that exhaustion? What for? For that extra attack? Because you know what's happening after lvl 10? The fighter is getting his 3rd attack, free of charge, all day long.


Bear's 3rd-level feature IS situational. Not just because it won't come into play on most combats, but because you can't assume you'll be the target of those other attack types. The enemy sees you all buffed up and the tiny Wizard, who do you think he'll cast his Blight on? Will you always be around to halve those fireballs, when they happen? And so on, I can keep going all day but I have to believe you understand. Eagle and Wolf give you strategy and synergy options, so whenever you're in battle, you can use them if you want. But instead they're mostly ignored because resisting the occasional elemental damage is apparently the greatest thing a Barbarian can do. Sigh.
Oh, the other options are gorgeous. But they have some issues. Eagle is wonderful for hit and run, or beeline for the special target. But I think barbarians really excell at tanking and taking some mass punishing while returning said punishing in kind.

Wolf is gorgeous... if there are other melees in party. And even if there are, if the DM uses flanking rule, which some friends of mine like using, it drops in utility. The bear is the one I think brings a lot of staying power without too much condition or rearranging barbarian's role.


I'm not against Totem, don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is
1) Bear is just as good or worse than Eagle and Wolf
2) Their high-level features totally disappoint compared to Berserker.
Errrrrr...

You talk about retaliation like it's a gamechanging thing, yet attacking with reaction is something you can get from some feats. PAM, adds some insult that it replicates both features. It's bonus action attack is inferior in damage, by a large margin, but free from consequences. The reaction might be better.

Now, let's take a look totem's features.
Bear is beautiful. Disadvantage to anyone in 5ft from you to attack anyone other than you. That's a solid way to lock them down. You, the 100+ HP resist everything killing machine.
Wolf gets the ability to knock down. Meh. I mean, it's good, but battlemasters were doing that much earlier.
Eagle gets flight. Whoa. Not that relevant if your DM allow races that fly, since this feature is a bit worse. But for someone with increased speed, the short bursts might not be enough of a hindrance. AL says no to flying races, as well as my usual DMs, so I rate this A+ feature.

I say berserkers features are a bit lackluster, except for Mindless Rage, which is definitely solid. It doesn't come as often, but when it comes, it's encounter defining. It might be the only thing a totem barbarian might look greedily at the berserker, the rest of the feature either being ignored or being replicated with feats.

[KingdomCody]

I read this Thread and see valid points on both ends, however everyone is making the wrong comparisons, Bearbarian is a tank, Berserker is DPS, they're going to behave differently, a fighter and a Ranger aren't a barbarian, so I decided to look through the Barbarian subclasses to see what all was there, and boy did I find what i was looking for.

Frenzy
:At 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. When the rage ends you gain one level of exhaustion.

Who is this contender I found in the Barbarian Subclass? I bring to you the Way of the Zealot:

Divine Fury
:At 3rd level, while you're raging, the first creature you hit on each of your turns with a weapon attack takes extra damage equal to 1d6 + half your barbarian level. The extra damage is necrotic or radiant; you choose the type of damage when you gain this feature.

I got curious, so I did some math. I did this with a few different scenarios, no bonuses just class features and levels, with magical items, with Feats and magical items, and the results will shock you.

With nothing
Level 3: Rage damage is 2 per hit.
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+4= 6,16,28
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+1d6+1(2,4,7)+2=5,12,21
Level 4: Rage damage is 2 per hit
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+4=6,16,28
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+2= 6,13,22
Level 5: Rage damage is 2 per hit, Extra attack (If you make the attack action, you attack twice)
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+6= 9,24,42
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+4(6,10,18)+4=12,26,46
Level 8: Rage Damage is still 2 per hit
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+6= 9,24,42
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+8(10,14,20)+4=16,30,48
Level 20: Rage damage is now 4 per hit
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+12=15,30,48
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=32,46,64

By level 5 the Zealot out damages the Berserker, but what about with some magical items... Like a belt of Storm Giant strength?
With Magical Items: Belt of Storm Giant Strength(sets Strength to 29(+9), +3 weapon.

Level 3: 2 rage, +9 str, +3 weapon.
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18+6+4= 30,40,52
Zealot: 1d12+9+3(13,18,24)+1d6+1(2,4,7)+2=17,24,33
Level 4:
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18+6+4= 30,40,52
Zealot: 1d12+9+3(13,18,24)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+2=18,25,34
Level 5:
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27+9+6=45,57,69
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+4(6,10,16)+4=36,50,68
Level 8:
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27+9+6=45,57,69
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+8(10,14,20)+4=40,54,72
Level 20:
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27+9+12=51,66,84
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=56,70,88

By level 8 the damage changes back to be in the Zealot's favor, and at level 20 it's just a four point difference! Now let's throw feats into the equation

Level 3: No feat
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+4(rage)=30,40,52
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+9(str)+3(axe)+1d6+1(2,4,7)+2(rage)=17 ,24,33
Level 4: Great Weapon Master
Berserker: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+20(GWM)+4(rage)= 50,60,72
Zealot: 1d12(1,6,12)+9(Str)+3(axe)+10(GWM)+1d6+2(3,5,8)+2( rage)= 28,35,44
Level 5: Extra Attack+Great Weapon Master
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+6(rage)= 75,90,108
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+18(str)+6(axe)+20(GWM)+2d6+4(6,10,16 )+4(rage)=56,70,88
Level 8: Great Weapon Master+Extra Attack+Polearm Master(bonus action attack at 1d4)
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+6(rage)= 75,90,108
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+3d 6+12(15,21,30)+6= 84,99,126
Level 20: GMW, EA, PAM
Berserker: 3d12(3,18,36)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+12(rage)= 81,96,114
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+3d 6+30(33,39,48)+12(rage)= 114,129,150

Because of PAM the Zealot massively overtakes the Berserker in damage, just the minimum does as much as the Berserker's max damage (If my math is off please let me know) Both sides can crit fish, and if the Berserker crits with all three attacks his base weapon damage jumps from 36 to 108(36+36+36) if you roll max damage, however this is crit fishing against a class that can also crit fish, and while it's lower than the Berserkers is, you probably aren't going to crit that often in ten turns in comparison to the times that the Zealot will crit by being a Zealot. I have a fix and did the math for it.
My Proposal is to let Extra attack proc off of the Frenzy attack and merge retaliation with Frenzy, and then make a separate level 14 ability for them to use, because Berserker doesn't have scaling, Zealot does... Here's the math of just one turn of Frenzy against Zealot with my proposed fix (at just level 20 as at this point it's getting obscene)

Level 20: (no bonuses)
Berserker: 4d12(4,24,48)+16=20,40,62
Zealot: 2d12(2,12,24)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=32,46,64
Level 20: (Belt of Storm Giant Strength, +3 weapon)
Berserker: 4d12(4,24,48)+36+12+16=68,88,112
Zealot: 2d12+18+6(26,36,48)+2d6+20(22,26,32)+8=56,70,88
Level 20: GMW, EA, PAM, Belt of Storm Giant Strength, +3 weapon.
Berserker: 4d12(4,24,48)+36(str)+12(axe)+40(GWM)+16(rage)=108 ,128,152
Zealot: 2d10(2,10,20)+1d4(1,2,4)+27(str)+9(axe)+30(GWM)+3d 6+30(33,39,48)+12(rage)= 114,129,150

The max damage is 2 up from the Zealot's max, and everything else is lower still (but much closer) Granted this is at level 20 so I don't know where the change period is, but keep in mind that not everybody is going to get a Belt of Giant Strength, without it that +9 becomes a +7, which is a 6 point shift for both sides and we end up with similar numbers, unless it's my proposed fix then the Berserker loses out on 2 damage overall(losing 8 damage while the Zealot loses 6) putting the Berserker's max (with my fix) on par of the max damage of the Way of the Zealot Barbarian's max. And the Zealot barbarian doesn't get exhaustion when they use their feature because it's an onhit effect that scales with barbarian level. Again if the Berserker crits with any of these that number changes but I'm not counting crits as both can fish for them, the Zerker just has more attacks to fish with. So, is my fix considered to strong or to weak? or maybe it's just enough as it merges Retaliation with Frenzy, another way I can see working is to double rage damage while in frenzy and at 14 have it be tripled?

Edit: I'm noticing the time this thread was made (I need to be smarter :/) And that Zealot is Xanathar's guide, so maybe when this was made Xanathar's wasn't out yet... my bad and sorry to the mods now looking at this, can this stay as it's not only on topic but has math involved? I have the math saved elsewhere if I need to make a new topic for this

[Man_Over_Game]

That's an impressive amount of work, and I applaud you for that, but please don't resurrect old threads. Make a new one and refer to the old one (to spark new discussions) if you must, but please leave the dead sleep.

[Roland St. Jude]

...Edit: I'm noticing the time this thread was made (I need to be smarter :/) And that Zealot is Xanathar's guide, so maybe when this was made Xanathar's wasn't out yet... my bad and sorry to the mods now looking at this, can this stay as it's not only on topic but has math involved? I have the math saved elsewhere if I need to make a new topic for this

Sheriff: You can create a new thread and link back to this one, if you want.