Hidden Blades (Assassin's Creed-esque)

[Arkhios]

I was wondering how would you create a set of (semi-magical) weapons for a rogue to use (essentially something that would be only usable and require attunement by a rogue), that wouldn't necessarily be considered as magical nor bestow any bonuses to hit and damage (though I'm not exactly against it either).

Note: I'm not interested in just re-fluffing existing weapons; the hidden blades would deal piercing damage equal to that of a dagger or a shortsword (maybe deal damage as daggers while in normal combat, and as shortswords/rapier when the target is surprised?), and maybe allow wielder to add ability modifier to damage rolls with the off-hand blade - effectively granting Two-Weapon Fighting Style's benefits for the blades only.

They should be able to deal great amount of damage when attacking a surprised target, and preferably enable a "double kill" in the same vein as in the game series. Something like doing a sneak attack twice on your turn. (Maybe allow splitting sneak attack dice between two attacks?)

Any ideas?

[DracoKnight]

I have hidden blades statted out in the "weapon expansion" link in my signature! :smallbiggrin:

[Fishyninja]

I have hidden blades statted out in the "weapon expansion" link in my signature! :smallbiggrin:
What is a Da Lannan sword?

[Arkhios]

I have hidden blades statted out in the "weapon expansion" link in my signature! :smallbiggrin:
That certainly looks nice. Though I'd add something to explain how quickly you can draw and sheath them. (For the purpose in question, preferably really fast).

[DracoKnight]

What is a Da Lannan sword?

Super long link to a Dà Lannan (https://www.amazon.com/Fantasy-Master-Convertible-Short-Overall/dp/B01FXA6942/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_14?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=5CG5VCJFH53BABS4H8TG)


That certainly looks nice. Though I'd add something to explain how quickly you can draw and sheath them. (For the purpose in question, preferably really fast).

It's the same speed as drawing a weapon. I didn't think to clarify it because I thought it would be intuitive :smalltongue: I guess I should do that :smalltongue:

[Fishyninja]

Super long link to a Dà Lannan (https://www.amazon.com/Fantasy-Master-Convertible-Short-Overall/dp/B01FXA6942/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_img_14?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=5CG5VCJFH53BABS4H8TG)

The more you know.

[DracoKnight]

The more you know.

One of my players wields one! :smallbiggrin: She brought it to me and i went: "What the hell? I've never seen one before, and it looks cool enough. Heck, it can be a monk weapon for you!"

[Fishyninja]

One of my players wields one! :smallbiggrin: She brought it to me and i went: "What the hell? I've never seen one before, and it looks cool enough. Heck, it can be a monk weapon for you!"
Well

It isn't out of the realms of possibility. I have never seen a historic one. But now means I get to look!

[DracoKnight]

Well

It isn't out of the realms of possibility. I have never seen a historic one. But now means I get to look!

I justify it by thinking about how Darth Maul fights; classwise, I figure him to be a Monk/Warlock who utilizes the acrobatic fighting style of the monk. I figured the dà lannan wouldn't be too different in practice from a double-ended lightsaber. It's close enough in my mind to justify it being a monk weapon.

[Fishyninja]

Monk/Warlock
I think you'll find the correct term is intergalatic space wizard.

[DracoKnight]

I think you'll find the correct term is intergalatic space wizard.

Ah, but of course :smalltongue:

[Thrudd]

I was wondering how would you create a set of (semi-magical) weapons for a rogue to use (essentially something that would be only usable and require attunement by a rogue), that wouldn't necessarily be considered as magical nor bestow any bonuses to hit and damage (though I'm not exactly against it either).

Note: I'm not interested in just re-fluffing existing weapons; the hidden blades would deal piercing damage equal to that of a dagger or a shortsword (maybe deal damage as daggers while in normal combat, and as shortswords/rapier when the target is surprised?), and maybe allow wielder to add ability modifier to damage rolls with the off-hand blade - effectively granting Two-Weapon Fighting Style's benefits for the blades only.

They should be able to deal great amount of damage when attacking a surprised target, and preferably enable a "double kill" in the same vein as in the game series. Something like doing a sneak attack twice on your turn. (Maybe allow splitting sneak attack dice between two attacks?)

Any ideas?
I think you're trying to make it too complicated, too many things being modified in little ways that they'll need to keep track of. Saying something like "always grants ability modifier to damage, even when used in off-hand" is something easy to forget when it's attached to a specific weapon.

What you're basically describing in the last paragraph is the sneak attack ability, and specifically the assassin sub-class ability to deal automatic critical hits on surprised opponents. The power of the hidden blade isn't in the blade, it's in the assassin that knows how to use it. The only magical thing about the blade is how it is invisible until you attack with it.

You could make a house rule that if there are two unaware/surprised enemies within arm's reach of an assassin, and they have two attacks and a finesse weapon in each hand, they can make a sneak attack against both. This would be a fairly rare situation, I'd think. I don't think it is appropriate to make this an effect granted by the item. It's an ability that someone has or doesn't have regardless of what weapon is in their hands.

For the item, How about this:

Magic Item:
Bracer of the Assassin -
Often found in pairs, this item looks like a normal leather bracer. Whenever the wearer desires, a thin dagger blade will emerge from the bracer. Making the dagger appear and disappear are both free actions and can be performed during an attack action.

If you want an additional more powerful effect, have it double the number of sneak attack dice when attacking a surprised opponent. This can get you the one-hit kills/assassinations like you see in the game more consistently.


I think also making the weapon more useful in normal combat, like giving bonuses to using it in the off-hand, is unnecessary and not really in keeping with the spirit of what the hidden dagger is for. It's an assassination weapon, actually fighting with it isn't usually a good idea (unless it's the only weapon you have).

[DragonSorcererX]

I have hidden blades statted out in the "weapon expansion" link in my signature! :smallbiggrin:

What exactly is a Falchion? I thought that a Falchion was that "longsword sized knife thingy" that used the Scimitar moveset in Dark Souls...

http://i.imgur.com/ylxGcIT.jpg

Also, I love how the Katana is a d6 Versatile Finesse Weapon, it makes sense, because for the pop culture Samurai, it doesn't matter how much damage a mundane katana does by itself, what matters is how much damage the man wielding it can deal (Divine Smite).

[Arkhios]

I think you're trying to make it too complicated, too many things being modified in little ways that they'll need to keep track of. Saying something like "always grants ability modifier to damage, even when used in off-hand" is something easy to forget when it's attached to a specific weapon.

What you're basically describing in the last paragraph is the sneak attack ability, and specifically the assassin sub-class ability to deal automatic critical hits on surprised opponents. The power of the hidden blade isn't in the blade, it's in the assassin that knows how to use it. The only magical thing about the blade is how it is invisible until you attack with it.

You could make a house rule that if there are two unaware/surprised enemies within arm's reach of an assassin, and they have two attacks and a finesse weapon in each hand, they can make a sneak attack against both. This would be a fairly rare situation, I'd think. I don't think it is appropriate to make this an effect granted by the item. It's an ability that someone has or doesn't have regardless of what weapon is in their hands.

For the item, How about this:

Magic Item:
Bracer of the Assassin -
Often found in pairs, this item looks like a normal leather bracer. Whenever the wearer desires, a thin dagger blade will emerge from the bracer. Making the dagger appear and disappear are both free actions and can be performed during an attack action.

If you want an additional more powerful effect, have it double the number of sneak attack dice when attacking a surprised opponent. This can get you the one-hit kills/assassinations like you see in the game more consistently.


I think also making the weapon more useful in normal combat, like giving bonuses to using it in the off-hand, is unnecessary and not really in keeping with the spirit of what the hidden dagger is for. It's an assassination weapon, actually fighting with it isn't usually a good idea (unless it's the only weapon you have).

I know the general idea of the first post was a bit convoluted (which is why I posted it, to simplify the text with the hive mind of Giants :smalltongue:)

Also, I think you're right about the normal combat. Hidden Blade might also have a bit too fragile mechanism to be used regularly in a fight. Could be done, buy not necessarily most ideal.

Doubling Sneak Attack damage for surprised targets is close to what I had in mind. Maybe a double assassination isn't very realistic, but I was thinking how to make it so that a rogue with these blades/bracers could essentially deal sneak attack to two targets at once without breaking balance too much.

Would it work if you could split the normal sneak attack dice between two attacks, only on your first turn, and only if both targets are surprised against you?

Like, normally an Assassin (rogue archetype) would be able to deal +2d6 extra damage with one attack, but with the blades you could deal +1d6 with each, both of which would benefit from Assassination. Maybe allow ability modifier for both attacks only for this purpose.

In comparison:
Bracers: Two dagger sneak attack critical hits for 2d4+2d6 + 2d4+2d6 = avg. 12 damage for each target (before ability modifiers).

No bracers: Dagger sneak attack critical hit for 2d4+4d6 plus dagger critical hit for 2d4 = avg. 19 damage for other target and avg. 5 damage for another.

Total damage would be equal with either (24) so personally I think it would be ok if you could split it. But what do you guys think?


What exactly is a Falchion? I thought that a Falchion was that "longsword sized knife thingy" that used the Scimitar moveset in Dark Souls...

I think you might be confusing falchion with with machete. (Though similar in shape, falchion is more like a big scimitar)

[Crusher]

I know the general idea of the first post was a bit convoluted (which is why I posted it, to simplify the text with the hive mind of Giants :smalltongue:)

Also, I think you're right about the normal combat. Hidden Blade might also have a bit too fragile mechanism to be used regularly in a fight. Could be done, buy not necessarily most ideal.

Doubling Sneak Attack damage for surprised targets is close to what I had in mind. Maybe a double assassination isn't very realistic, but I was thinking how to make it so that a rogue with these blades/bracers could essentially deal sneak attack to two targets at once without breaking balance too much.

Would it work if you could split the normal sneak attack dice between two attacks, only on your first turn, and only if both targets are surprised against you?

Like, normally an Assassin (rogue archetype) would be able to deal +2d6 extra damage with one attack, but with the blades you could deal +1d6 with each, both of which would benefit from Assassination. Maybe allow ability modifier for both attacks only for this purpose.

In comparison:
Bracers: Two dagger sneak attack critical hits for 2d4+2d6 + 2d4+2d6 = avg. 12 damage for each target (before ability modifiers).

No bracers: Dagger sneak attack critical hit for 2d4+4d6 plus dagger critical hit for 2d4 = avg. 19 damage for other target and avg. 5 damage for another.

Total damage would be equal with either (24) so personally I think it would be ok if you could split it. But what do you guys think?



I think you might be confusing falchion with with machete. (Though similar in shape, falchion is more like a big scimitar)

I think splitting the sneak attack damage is great idea. Doubling the sneak attacking damage strikes me as gigantically powerful though very difficult to pull off.

[Arkhios]

I think splitting the sneak attack damage is great idea. Doubling the sneak attacking damage strikes me as gigantically powerful though very difficult to pull off.

Yeah. Even if/when your sneak attack dice pool is uneven, I think it would be better over double sneak attack damage which would be insanely good for an Assassin (effectively dealing quadruple sneak attack with Assassination's auto-crit).


It's the same speed as drawing a weapon. I didn't think to clarify it because I thought it would be intuitive :smalltongue: I guess I should do that :smalltongue:

Yeah, I figured you might say that. What I meant was that normally you can only interact once per turn with a weapon in order to draw or sheathe it (twice, if you have Dual Wielder feat and only either draw or sheathe, not both). But, since hidden blades are rather quick weapons to use I thought it would make sense you'd be able to draw and sheathe them quicker than usual. Thus maybe allowing them to be drawn as part of making an attack roll with them, and sheathed immediately afterwards.

[DragonSorcererX]

I think you might be confusing falchion with with machete. (Though similar in shape, falchion is more like a big scimitar)

Oh right... well, I normally don't associate a Machete with whatever level of technology D&D is...

[DracoKnight]

Yeah, I figured you might say that. What I meant was that normally you can only interact once per turn with a weapon in order to draw or sheathe it (twice, if you have Dual Wielder feat and only either draw or sheathe, not both). But, since hidden blades are rather quick weapons to use I thought it would make sense you'd be able to draw and sheathe them quicker than usual. Thus maybe allowing them to be drawn as part of making an attack roll with them, and sheathed immediately afterwards.

Wait. Dang it. I forgot my group changed the "Drawing A Weapon" rules after someone wanted to play a samurai and Iaido on every attack.

Yes, you can draw the blade on an attack and sheathe it immediately after, with no cost to your action economy :smalltongue:

[Fishyninja]

What exactly is a Falchion? I thought that a Falchion was that "longsword sized knife thingy" that used the Scimitar moveset in Dark Souls...

http://i.imgur.com/ylxGcIT.jpg

A Falchion is a one handed blade of European Origin which had taken some elements from the east in their design. The blade is single edged but the blade profile and design can differ a huge amount.
If I recall Falchions are not full tang blades (I.e. the blade does not propgate trhough the hand guard). The weapon you show could be a Flachion, or a Messer (which looks similar but is full tang), also Messer's generally come in two handed varieties too but are not considered heavy, maybe 2lbs at max.

https://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-kriegsmesser-knecht.htm

[DragonSorcererX]

A Falchion is a one handed blade of European Origin which had taken some elements from the east in their design. The blade is single edged but the blade profile and design can differ a huge amount.
If I recall Falchions are not full tang blades (I.e. the blade does not propgate trhough the hand guard). The weapon you show could be a Flachion, or a Messer (which looks similar but is full tang), also Messer's generally come in two handed varieties too but are not considered heavy, maybe 2lbs at max.

https://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-kriegsmesser-knecht.htm

So, as I thought, the Falchion is basically an European Scimitar? :smallsigh:

(I think I need to listen again to the GM Word of the Week episode about Scimitars)

[Fishyninja]

What exactly is a Falchion? I thought that a Falchion was that "longsword sized knife thingy" that used the Scimitar moveset in Dark Souls...

http://i.imgur.com/ylxGcIT.jpg

Also, I love how the Katana is a d6 Versatile Finesse Weapon, it makes sense, because for the pop culture Samurai, it doesn't matter how much damage a mundane katana does by itself, what matters is how much damage the man wielding it can deal (Divine Smite).


So, as I thought, the Falchion is basically an European Scimitar? :smallsigh:

Yes and no. You are right in the 'classic' blade design, but essentially what defines a Falchion is a mainland European one handed single sword/large kniffe that is not full tang and has at least a curve somewhere on the balde.

The problem is historians cannot decide on what denotes a Flachion

Let me draw your attention to the top left of this image:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/30/56/fc/3056fc0078601467652abc8b42b800ee.jpg

All of these can be Falchion's or Messers, if one handed it jsut depends on how they are made which defines the term.

[Arkhios]

Wait. Dang it. I forgot my group changed the "Drawing A Weapon" rules after someone wanted to play a samurai and Iaido on every attack.

Yes, you can draw the blade on an attack and sheathe it immediately after, with no cost to your action economy :smalltongue:

Awesome, thank you for clarifying it. I decided to allow all of those weapons (and materials) in the post-apocalyptic campaign where one of my players has made a character much like the assassins from the game series, complete with a similar organization.

I've already had him find a wrist pistol xP

[DracoKnight]

Awesome, thank you for clarifying it. I decided to allow all of those weapons (and materials) in the post-apocalyptic campaign where one of my players has made a character much like the assassins from the game series, complete with a similar organization.

Oh, cool! My group's had a lot of fun with them, and I hope that yours does too! :smallbiggrin:


I've already had him find a wrist pistol xP

Ezio, anyone? :smallcool:

[Fishyninja]

Oh, cool! My group's had a lot of fun with them, and I hope that yours does too! :smallbiggrin:



Ezio, anyone? :smallcool:

Or the OSS from World war two.

http://www.nww2m.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/glovegun-0062-1024x682.jpg

[Arkhios]

Oh, cool! My group's had a lot of fun with them, and I hope that yours does too! :smallbiggrin:

Ezio, anyone? :smallcool:

Noooo! :smallcool:


Or the OSS from World war two.

http://www.nww2m.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/glovegun-0062-1024x682.jpg

Seriously though, I envisioned it as something between Ezio's and Sedgley OSS .38 (thank you for the name and picture, I knew those existed, just didn't know the name)