Factotum's Cunning Strike Question

[Tr0users]

I'm curious; is a level 4 Factotum considered to possess the sneak attack prerequisite required for numerous feats (such as Deft Strike), or is Cunning Strike just a weak, pale, insufficient imitation?

[Venger]

I'm curious; is a level 4 Factotum considered to possess the sneak attack prerequisite required for numerous feats (such as Deft Strike), or is Cunning Strike just a weak, pale, insufficient imitation?

No, he is not. That said, precision damage is considered fungible for feats, so if you had sneak attack or sudden strike, you could qualify for a feat requiring either. And if you needed say, 3 SA dice but had a mix of SA and SS, you would qualify.

[Stealth Marmot]

No it doesn't count as qualifying as sneak attack no.

I don't find Cunning Strike to be very useful, and yet I also find it to be broken. I'll explain. At level 4 you can have your character hit for Weapon Damage +10d6 ONCE per encounter.

If you take 3 feats of Font of Inspiration (providing you have a 16 or higher INT and are human) you have a total of 10 points of inspiration. Cunning Strike allows you to use as many points of inspiration as you have on a single strike, so you can dump all 10 into one hit and hit for over 40 damage easily at level 4.

Problem is, you have zero feats otherwise and use basically all of your ability in one hit. Translating inspiration points into 1d6 damage is not very powerful. To be honest I think it needs to scale with level, like later on at level 7 or 8 it becomes d8s and eventually d10s or d12s.

Edit: Also I would limit the number of dice you can add to a strike to your INT modifier.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Welcome to the sack of confusion that is the Factotum's RAW. Ask your DM; it will be a clearer and more relevant answer than anything we can give you here.

Stealth Marmot is correct, for the reference: it's a piss-poor use of IP, even if you do load up on FoI (a generally bad idea, IMO) and are allowed to stack it indefinitely (rules/RAI unclear; I'd say no).

[Tr0users]

Cheers mateys! I have another similar question about Cunning Strike.

Supposing I have a DM who allows me to spam as much Cunning Strike damage into one hit as I like, can those additional dice be exchanged for charisma damage with Maiming Strike, or are my dreams of one-shotting the deadliest enemies with uglifying damage destined to remain but a dream?

[etrpgb]

By RAW, seems so. But to quality for the feat you need few levels as Rogue.

[Stealth Marmot]

Cheers mateys! I have another similar question about Cunning Strike.

Supposing I have a DM who allows me to spam as much Cunning Strike damage into one hit as I like, can those additional dice be exchanged for charisma damage with Maiming Strike, or are my dreams of one-shotting the deadliest enemies with uglifying damage destined to remain but a dream?

You would have to be evil AND have 2d6 natural sneak attack from sources besides the Factotum (3 levels in rogue, or 1 in rogue 1 in spellthief for example) but Cunning Strike lists the extra damage as, specifically, Sneak attack damage.

But to be honest, 2d6 damage verse 1 charisma, the damage could be more devastating than the charisma loss, even to a sorcerer.

[Venger]

You would have to be evil AND have 2d6 natural sneak attack from sources besides the Factotum (3 levels in rogue, or 1 in rogue 1 in spellthief for example) but Cunning Strike lists the extra damage as, specifically, Sneak attack damage.

But to be honest, 2d6 damage verse 1 charisma, the damage could be more devastating than the charisma loss, even to a sorcerer.

Yeah that's exactly how it would work.

The threat of maiming strike is targeting opponents who have low charisma, not casters. when you reach 0, you go unconscious, which takes you out of combat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Are there really that many low-Cha monsters, though? It's not like Int where there are a bunch of things in the 1-3 range.

[Venger]

Are there really that many low-Cha monsters, though? It's not like Int where there are a bunch of things in the 1-3 range.

Yeah. It's about as common as low-int monsters. Like with ray of stupidity, it's got niche use, but within that sphere (when you have a lot of dice to sacrifice and can hit hard/multiple times) it's solid.

[Soranar]

it's great in certain circumstances, especially with a wand that grants you a touch attack ray spell

otherwise I used it well with sniper's shot at ridiculous range to kill an NPC

[Stealth Marmot]

I actually can't recall very many creatures that have that low charisma. Looking through the MM right now

...

Let's go ahead and assume the character is A. human, B. Takes the feat, and C. Has 18 INT, and D. Uses 4 feats for Font of Inspiration.

Minimum level is 9, with at least 2 levels in classes that are not Factotum. That is level 7 Factotum, with 4 inspiration points base and 10 from feats. Thats 14, total, using all on sneak attack would add to the 2 levels for 16d6 Sneak attack total. That is enough to do 8 charisma damage.

Now, taking into account the average damage of 2d6 sneak attack, we hit 7. So in order to be a better idea that just sneak attacking the thing, the creature would have to have:

1) Charisma 8 or lower.

2) More than 7 times their charisma in hit points (over 56 really to actually be worthwhile). This of course discounts the fact that you would be doing weapon damage on top of it, so we'll just let it be even and say over 56 hit points.

3) Subject to sneak attacks.

Looking through the Monster Manual, out of the entire manual I found:

Athach (CR 8)
Bulette (CR 7)
Chuul (CR 7)
Dinosaur - Triceratops (CR 9)
Displacer Beast Pack Lord (Advanced Displacer Beast) (CR 12)
Dragon - White - Young/Juvenile (CR 4 or 6)
Hill Giant (CR 7), also Hill Giant Wereboar.
Girallon (CR 6 Note: Only has 58 hit points so would probably die to weapon damage addition)
Gray Render (CR 8)
Griffon (CR 4 Note: Also barely qualifies at 59 hit points)
Hell Hound - Nessian Warhound (Advanced Hellhound) (CR 9)
Ogre - 4th level barbarian (CR 7)
Purple Worm (CR 12)
Troll (CR 5)
Polar Bear (CR 4)
Elephant (CR 7)
Rhino (CR 4)
Shark (Huge) (CR 4)
Squid, Giant (CR 9)
Whales (CR 5-7)
Several Monstrous Vermin CR (6-11)

Overall, a very scant list except for the monstrous vermin. Taking off anything that is CR 7 or lower (which at level 9 isn't that impressive to one shot considering what you sink into it), and creatures that either have templates or advancement (Which the DM will more than likely be a little more careful than to build it knowing you can one shot it), you get the following:

Athach (CR 8)
Dinosaur - Triceratops (CR 9)
Gray Render (CR 8)
Purple Worm (CR 12)
Squid, Giant (CR 9)
Several Monstrous Vermin CR (6-11)

Excluding the vermin, you only have this effective ability against 5 useful creatures, and considering I don't play TOO many D&D games with dinosaurs and DMs will usually pass over Giant Squids for the goddamn Kraken, It's really 3. The athach and grey render are nice to disable, and the Purple Worm is freaking amazing to one shot, but let's be honest, the real fun is the ability to somehow scar up Collossal Scorpions in a way that scars their faces into a coma.

When all is said and done though, the real good mark is hitting and lobotomizing a 17th level Ogre Barbarian. in one shot. The combo really works best against advanced creatures with added hit die or character levels since those rarely actually increase charisma.

[Tr0users]

I'm looking at something along the lines of Factotum 4/Rogue 5/Swordsage 1/Assassin 10. With the Swordsage's Assassin's Stance, I believe that adds up to 10d6 sneak attack + however much Cunning Strike I pump into it. So, as a point of pedantry, with the stance I can deal 18d6, or 9 charisma damage at level 9.

Yes, I'm given to believe that Maiming Strike becomes more relevant at later levels, when many enemies have heaps of hit points, but not necessarily especially high Charisma scores. Which leads me to ask... are there any methods for dealing sneak attack damage to enemies who are normally immune to it?

[etrpgb]

Which leads me to ask... are there any methods for dealing sneak attack damage to enemies who are normally immune to it?

There are some magical items: Greater Truedeath Crystal for undead and Greater Demolition Crystal for constructs (Magic Item Compendium).

Otherwise you can get the special ability Saboteur from Dragon Magazine 326 for Constructs.
You can also get 2 levels from the Skullclan Hunter (Miniature Handbook) class to be able to sneak attack undeads.

There is also Penetrating Strike alternate class feature in Dungeonscape that allows to always do halved sneak attack when flanking giving up to Trapsense.

The special ability is quite difficult to get as you need 10 levels as Rogue, but definitely you should take the Dungeonscape alternate class feature and if you can two levels as Skullclan Hunter. This class might be problematic as it requires the ability of turn undead as pre-requisite; a (Cloistered)Cleric dip is usually good for everyone, though.

[Tr0users]

There are some magical items: Greater Truedeath Crystal for undead and Greater Demolition Crystal for constructs (Magic Item Compendium).

Otherwise you can get the special ability Saboteur from Dragon Magazine 326 for Constructs.
You can also get 2 levels from the Skullclan Hunter (Miniature Handbook) class to be able to sneak attack undeads.

There is also Penetrating Strike alternate class feature in Dungeonscape that allows to always do halved sneak attack when flanking giving up to Trapsense.

The special ability is quite difficult to get as you need 10 levels as Rogue, but definitely you should take the Dungeonscape alternate class feature and if you can two levels as Skullclan Hunter. This class might be problematic as it requires the ability of turn undead as pre-requisite; a (Cloistered)Cleric dip is usually good for everyone, though.

Penetrating Strike looks like a good call, to me, but unfortunately Skullclan Hunter is incompatible with Maiming Strike and the Assassin class, as it requires good alignment. The two crystals go directly onto the shopping list.

[Venger]

Penetrating Strike looks like a good call, to me, but unfortunately Skullclan Hunter is incompatible with Maiming Strike and the Assassin class, as it requires good alignment. The two crystals go directly onto the shopping list.

you can always ask your gm if he can waive alignment reqs, since they are dumb, and a precision damage user needs all the help he can get.

[etrpgb]

I agree with Venger, even with all the fluff I don't really get why you need to be "Good" to hate undead. Nowadays they become just an other creature, but traditionally they are just monsters and many DM still considers them like that. I guess you should ask what he think about it in the settings.

Ask if you can change the requirements with:

Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Special: Able to turn or rebuke undead; sneak attack +2d6.

[Venger]

I agree with Venger, even with all the fluff I don't really get why you need to be "Good" to hate undead. Nowadays they become just an other creature, but traditionally they are just monsters and many DM still considers them like that. I guess you should ask what he think about it in the settings.

Ask if you can change the requirements with:

Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks.
Special: Able to turn or rebuke undead; sneak attack +2d6.
Glad you agree. Especially since not all undead are evil.

Or if you'd like to be good, ditch the alignment reqs for maiming strike (nothing inherently evil about stabbing people in the face) or assassin (nothing wrong with killing people for money, it's what literally every adventurer does)

[etrpgb]

Usually in my settings Undead are all evil. I know nowadays Undead are just another race (overall after the Necropolitan template), but doing so makes the settings a bit weird.
Why not all kings are necropolitan? Why not everyone that is a bit rich does not make the ritual of Crucumigration? Do people like to die so much? Making the undead "just another creature" opens more questions than solving.
What's the point of bothering with menial jobs if you can simply use skeletons? etc etc...


And the point is that, that undead are so evil that pretty much everyone hates them. Even in the classic "black/white" scenario where the left kingdom is controlled by a lawful good fairy and the right kingdom is controlled by a evil manipulator devil, if some undead appears they'll simply attack together.

Still, of course it depends on the settings and what the DM thinks about it.

[Venger]

Usually in my settings Undead are all evil. I know nowadays Undead are just another race (overall after the Necropolitan template), but doing so makes the settings a bit weird.
Why not all kings are necropolitan? Why not everyone that is a bit rich does not make the ritual of Crucumigration? Do people like to die so much? Making the undead "just another creature" opens more questions than solving.
What's the point of bothering with menial jobs if you can simply use skeletons? etc etc...


And the point is that, that undead are so evil that pretty much everyone hates them. Even in the classic "black/white" scenario where the left kingdom is controlled by a lawful good fairy and the right kingdom is controlled by a evil manipulator devil, if some undead appears they'll simply attack together.

Still, of course it depends on the settings and what the DM thinks about it.
Okay, that's your perogative. Do necropolitans not exist in your setting, or does the ritual flip your alignment to evil, like being turned into a vampire?

Kings aren't all necropolitan because of prejudice against undead from their subjects. An example of this is Kaius ir'Wynarn III of Karrnath. He is in actuality still Kaius I, but is a vampire masquerading as his own grandson because his subjects are afraid of undead.

For monarchs who couldn't pull off such a conspiracy, they probably figure it's not worth the trouble.

There is no point in bothering with menial jobs if you can get skeletons and zombies to do it for you without having to pay them money like you do with living day laborers. This was the driving thrust behind the industrial revolution in our world. in dnd, people use unseen servant to get past the ick factor if they hate and/or fear undead.

for a watsonian explanation, some people might enjoy the intangibles (read: things that have no mechanical effect) such as eating food, smoking tobacco, or other leisure activities associated with being alive. for a doylist one, necropolitan isn't good on every character class since it messes up your hit points.

aside from that both in and out of universe, you have to write a letter to the necropolitans and ask nicely for them to do the ritual to you. if they say no, then you're out of luck. this is another reason everyone who wants to be necropolitan isn't already, aside from it costing 3000gp, something only adventurers and the very wealthy can afford.

yeah, it's definitely setting-dependent. if all you're after is some bodies for your pcs to kill, undead are a popular enough choice to fill the niche.