Warlock spells for dipping?

[Sans.]

Theorycrafting a Warlock(Archfey) 2/Wizard(Abjuration) X. What would be the best spells to get from Warlock that would stay useful for most levels?

[Naanomi]

Theorycrafting a Warlock(Archfey) 2/Wizard(Abjuration) X. What would be the best spells to get from Warlock that would stay useful for most levels?
I assume you are leaving your Charisma in the lower range? So avoid saving throws and to-hit rolls... Comprehend Languages, Hex, Expeditious Retreat, Unseen Servant, Protection from Evil and Good?

[Sans.]

I assume you are leaving your Charisma in the lower range? So avoid saving throws and to-hit rolls... Comprehend Languages, Hex, Expeditious Retreat, Unseen Servant, Protection from Evil and Good?

Comprehend Languages and Unseen Servant are situational plus I could just put them in my spellbook and as a Wizard I'll have better things to concentrate on than Hex or Protection from Evil and Good. Expeditious Retreat seems nice as a contingency spell though. Any other options?

[Citan]

Theorycrafting a Warlock(Archfey) 2/Wizard(Abjuration) X. What would be the best spells to get from Warlock that would stay useful for most levels?
Well, I'd say spells that are exclusive to Warlock and are useful even with "low" CHA.
By order, Hex, Armor of Agathys, Faerie Fire (requires CHA), Sleep, Hellish Rebuke (requires CHA)...

[honeybunch]

By order, Hex, Armor of Agathys, Faerie Fire (requires CHA), Sleep, Hellish Rebuke (requires CHA)...

Sleep can be learned by wizards. None of the others can, though.

[Asmotherion]

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast is the key to building an amazing Wizlock. Then, one other of your choice. Since you're going abjuration you can melee safelly, so Green-Flame or Booming Blade are good secondary choices. Or, you may take Mage Hand if you intend to take it anyway, to tax your Wizard Cantrip list less. Friends can synergise well with Mask of Many Faces.

Invocations: Repelling Blast works wonders with the Wizard's persistant AoEs. Then, if you Intend to go Cha>Int Wizlock (which is a more than Viable Choice, and one of my favorite Characters used that array) take Agonising Blast too, it has great Scaling Damage. If you can't afford Agonising Blast (Cha bonus < +3), Mask of Many Faces is incredibelly fun to role-play with and gives you a way to negate Friends' most anoying side-effect. Well, you'll be able to do this anyway by Level 18, but if you can't wait, it's still a very good choice.

Lv1 Spells: Hex is a good alternative to your persistant AoE Wall Spells and flaming sphere, for when you are Low on spell slots, and scales very nicely too. Has an amazing duration and it's always good to have. Armor of Agathys is the bread-and-butter of the Wizlock Abjurer, as, not only does it give you Temp HP that synergise with you Ward, it also can recharge your Ward as it is an Abjuration Spell. Cast it using your Second Highest Spell Slot. Finally, with the amound of spell slots you have, Hellish Rebuke is the perfect reaction spell to punish someone for hitting you; Jugle between it and Shield as you see fit.

[Citan]

Cantrips: Eldritch Blast is the key to building an amazing Wizlock. Then, one other of your choice. Since you're going abjuration you can melee safelly, so Green-Flame or Booming Blade are good secondary choices. Or, you may take Mage Hand if you intend to take it anyway, to tax your Wizard Cantrip list less. Friends can synergise well with Mask of Many Faces.

Invocations: Repelling Blast works wonders with the Wizard's persistant AoEs. Then, if you Intend to go Cha>Int Wizlock (which is a more than Viable Choice, and one of my favorite Characters used that array) take Agonising Blast too, it has great Scaling Damage. If you can't afford Agonising Blast (Cha bonus < +3), Mask of Many Faces is incredibelly fun to role-play with and gives you a way to negate Friends' most anoying side-effect. Well, you'll be able to do this anyway by Level 18, but if you can't wait, it's still a very good choice.

Lv1 Spells: Hex is a good alternative to your persistant AoE Wall Spells and flaming sphere, for when you are Low on spell slots, and scales very nicely too. Has an amazing duration and it's always good to have. Armor of Agathys is the bread-and-butter of the Wizlock Abjurer, as, not only does it give you Temp HP that synergise with you Ward, it also can recharge your Ward as it is an Abjuration Spell. Cast it using your Second Highest Spell Slot. Finally, with the amound of spell slots you have, Hellish Rebuke is the perfect reaction spell to punish someone for hitting you; Jugle between it and Shield as you see fit.
The problem with your advice about Eldricht Blast and related invocations is that it supposes a high CHA to be really useful.
BUT, OP specifically says he is only dipping Warlock. Considering also that any Wizard needs max INT (obviously), as high DEX as possible (at least 18), and as good Constitution as possible (at least 16), except good rolled stats there is little chance OP can have anything more than 13-14 at start, and ever fewer chances OP want to spend any ASI on CHA.

So, unless OP tells us he has at least 18 CHA, this is just bad advice. ;)
Same with weapon cantrips: Wizard also has them, so it's counter-productive to take them as Warlock cantrips unless high CHA.
Same with Hellish Rebuke, good chance of just wasting a spell slot.

That's why OP should better focus on utility: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion are in most cases non-ability dependent.
Hex, Armor of Agathys and maybe Sleep or Faerie Fire (situationally useful with low CHA) are the best choices.

Of course, again, if OP has 18+ CHA then I concur with your suggestions.

[rooneg]

Even with lower CHA, Eldritch Blast compares well with wizard cantrips. You gain the ability to split the damage among enemies, it uses a less commonly resisted damage type, and you are less likely to totally miss because you are rolling for each ray. Plus, you can pick invocations that make it cool, like repelling.

Even without Agonizing Blast you can still make a real case for taking the cantrips.

[Citan]

Even with lower CHA, Eldritch Blast compares well with wizard cantrips. You gain the ability to split the damage among enemies, it uses a less commonly resisted damage type, and you are less likely to totally miss because you are rolling for each ray. Plus, you can pick invocations that make it cool, like repelling.

Even without Agonizing Blast you can still make a real case for taking the cantrips.
I really don't agree with you, but without OP stats, no point trying to compare cantrip efficiency with hard numbers I guess.
Just notice that Eldricht Blast with low CHA is whatever happens strictly inferior to Wizard cantrips until you get at least 3rd ray, because precisely of lower chance to hit.

On a side note, if OP has low CHA but knows he can have third-party help (Bless, Faerie Fire, Entangle, Stunning Strike etc) to hit, then it can still be a good choice paired with Repelling Blast. Otherwise, really, don't bother.

True that having several rays makes it so that you are pretty sure to deal minimal damage against at least one enemy, but if it's not enough to seriously dent him, it's still probably a waste of action compared to what you could do otherwise...

Before 5th level, it's just strictly inferior to any Wizard cantrip because of lower accuracy and only one ray.
Before 11th level, it's still strictly inferior for single target damage because of lower accuracy and lack of rider compared to Shocking Grasp / Ray of Frost / Frostbite etc. And, for multi-target probably just on-par to just dual-wielding throwing daggers (barring the range), unless Wizard kept DEX 16 for whatever reason.
Only at 11th level does it begin to shine for multitarget, because it's at range (you could argue that an Abjurer can risk a Thunderclap though).
And at 17th level, when you really gets value for your investment, you are just one level away from free Magic Missile, Flaming Sphere or Scorching Ray.

That is why it is probably not a good idea.

[Sans.]

Stats: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 12 and Cha 14. I was thinking of taking 2 ASIs in Int, 2 in Dex and Resilient Con, but I'm open to other ideas. The main point of my dip is interesting fluff I thought up and to use Armour of Shadows to spam Mage Armour and refresh my Arcane Ward after every encounter, so that's one invocation tied up. I'll be starting Warlock, I think. Anything else you guys would need to know?

[gfishfunk]

Just Hex, Armor of Agathys, and a third spell not relying on Cha, such as sleep of comprehend languages.

[Sans.]

Cantrips? Eldritch Blast vs Firebolt or Frostbite?

[Asmotherion]

The problem with your advice about Eldricht Blast and related invocations is that it supposes a high CHA to be really useful.
BUT, OP specifically says he is only dipping Warlock. Considering also that any Wizard needs max INT (obviously), as high DEX as possible (at least 18), and as good Constitution as possible (at least 16), except good rolled stats there is little chance OP can have anything more than 13-14 at start, and ever fewer chances OP want to spend any ASI on CHA.

So, unless OP tells us he has at least 18 CHA, this is just bad advice. ;)
Same with weapon cantrips: Wizard also has them, so it's counter-productive to take them as Warlock cantrips unless high CHA.
Same with Hellish Rebuke, good chance of just wasting a spell slot.

That's why OP should better focus on utility: Mage Hand, Prestidigitation and Minor Illusion are in most cases non-ability dependent.
Hex, Armor of Agathys and maybe Sleep or Faerie Fire (situationally useful with low CHA) are the best choices.

Of course, again, if OP has 18+ CHA then I concur with your suggestions.

As I state quite clearly in the text you quoted, and you probably missed, is that it's quite possible to play the Wizlock with a Cha>Int build, even if your main class is Wizard. The Wizard's Versality, and overall ability to use spells does not need to depend on Save or Suck/Spell attacks necesseraly, and it can be used very effectivelly even with a 16 INT (end game). What I am suggesting is playtested. Also, as an Abjurer Wizard (wich is the Build I suggest), he can keep a relativelly low Con, and substitute for it with the Tough feat in favor of 2 good casting stats. With a Cha>Int build, it also makes sence to get a Scag Cantrip as a Warlock, if he is going that path. Finally, Repelling Blast is the best ranged at-will Control ability in the whole game, and synergises perfectly with AOEs, in order to throw opponents in a Wall spell for example. Even with a 16 Cha it is reliable enough to hit.

My advice is good, you just fail to realise it. :)

[Vaz]

Mage Armor at will Invocation is hilarious with an Abjurer Wizard.

[Sans.]

Mage Armor at will Invocation is hilarious with an Abjurer Wizard.
Well yeah, that's the main point of the dip.

[Citan]

As I state quite clearly in the text you quoted, and you probably missed, is that it's quite possible to play the Wizlock with a Cha>Int build, even if your main class is Wizard. The Wizard's Versality, and overall ability to use spells does not need to depend on Save or Suck/Spell attacks necesseraly, and it can be used very effectivelly even with a 16 INT (end game). What I am suggesting is playtested. Also, as an Abjurer Wizard (wich is the Build I suggest), he can keep a relativelly low Con, and substitute for it with the Tough feat in favor of 2 good casting stats. With a Cha>Int build, it also makes sence to get a Scag Cantrip as a Warlock, if he is going that path. Finally, Repelling Blast is the best ranged at-will Control ability in the whole game, and synergises perfectly with AOEs, in order to throw opponents in a Wall spell for example. Even with a 16 Cha it is reliable enough to hit.

My advice is good, you just fail to realise it. :)
So you are actually suggesting to self-handicap on a class which has the highest variety of spells, the most interesting high level spells, just for the sake of having a slightly better basic attack? And you call this "good advice"?
Impressive.
Again, this is just stupid for most people. Only if the whole character concept is based on being a charismatic Wizard with powerful blast is it worth.

Confer my previous posts for details but...
- Eldricht Blast is really worth the dip between 11 and 18 level. Before, it's not that good compared to other cantrips or plain daggers attack, except for range. After, you get 1st and 2nd level spell at will (sure-hit? Magic Missile. Versatility? Scorching Ray/Flaming Sphere. Vulnerability? Chromatic Orb. AOE? Thunderwave/Ice Knife/Burning Hands).
- At high level, 16 is not enough to hit reliably, unless you have help. And if you
have help, you can very well drop to 14 because at this high level, help is usually advantage. I love Repelling Blast, no mistake: but if you don't hit it's useless.
- At high level, your Abjurer Ward will hold for the few first attacks, after that you have to rely on usual: Mage Armor + Shield. Having a low Constitution is usually not a good idea.
I'm glad it worked for you, because you made your whole concept around it, including spell selection, and probably had a strong party to go with. Still, it is the nichest concept you could find and a very bad "generic advice" to tell to someone whose you don't know anything about character objective, playstyle or party (what if he's the only Wizard in the group? Do you really think they would like him to forego half the greatness of wizard because "hey look, I got a repelling laser beam").

So, again, IF OP has external way to help with to hit, Eldricht Blast may be worth it with Repelling Blast. Otherwise, it's really not the best choice, at most only a situational ability which is taking the place of other useful cantrips and invocations. Of course, if OP is only interested in Mage Armor invocation, he may take this one over others if he want, it's not the worst either, but it's mechanically not the best benefit. You are overselling it far too much.

[Sans.]

Crap. Just realised I should have done this with a Deep Gnome Abjurer instead. Nvm.

[Asmotherion]

So you are actually suggesting to self-handicap on a class which has the highest variety of spells, the most interesting high level spells, just for the sake of having a slightly better basic attack? And you call this "good advice"?
Impressive.
Again, this is just stupid for most people. Only if the whole character concept is based on being a charismatic Wizard with powerful blast is it worth.

Confer my previous posts for details but...
- Eldricht Blast is really worth the dip between 11 and 18 level. Before, it's not that good compared to other cantrips or plain daggers attack, except for range. After, you get 1st and 2nd level spell at will (sure-hit? Magic Missile. Versatility? Scorching Ray/Flaming Sphere. Vulnerability? Chromatic Orb. AOE? Thunderwave/Ice Knife/Burning Hands).
- At high level, 16 is not enough to hit reliably, unless you have help. And if you
have help, you can very well drop to 14 because at this high level, help is usually advantage. I love Repelling Blast, no mistake: but if you don't hit it's useless.
- At high level, your Abjurer Ward will hold for the few first attacks, after that you have to rely on usual: Mage Armor + Shield. Having a low Constitution is usually not a good idea.
I'm glad it worked for you, because you made your whole concept around it, including spell selection, and probably had a strong party to go with. Still, it is the nichest concept you could find and a very bad "generic advice" to tell to someone whose you don't know anything about character objective, playstyle or party (what if he's the only Wizard in the group? Do you really think they would like him to forego half the greatness of wizard because "hey look, I got a repelling laser beam").

So, again, IF OP has external way to help with to hit, Eldricht Blast may be worth it with Repelling Blast. Otherwise, it's really not the best choice, at most only a situational ability which is taking the place of other useful cantrips and invocations. Of course, if OP is only interested in Mage Armor invocation, he may take this one over others if he want, it's not the worst either, but it's mechanically not the best benefit. You are overselling it far too much.

Once again you prove your ignorance. When someone Dips Warlock, he does so for EB most of the time. And to put Cha into his EB. It is a perfectly viable option, and exactly because the Wizard has such versality, it can be done.

Either way, repelling blast is a + as it is a wonderous control ability on the best controler class that is the wizard.

Either way, it's not the first thread I have to talk to you about Eldritch Blast and Hex, and I really don't feel like talking to you at all. Your arguements are purelly based on the fact you don't like Eldritch Blast, and you're basically hating on a spell, which is just sad.

[Naanomi]

Once again you prove your ignorance. When someone Dips Warlock, he does so for EB most of the time. And to put Cha into his EB. It is a perfectly viable option, and exactly because the Wizard has such versality, it can be done.

Either way, repelling blast is a + as it is a wonderous control ability on the best controler class that is the wizard.

Either way, it's not the first thread I have to talk to you about Eldritch Blast and Hex, and I really don't feel like talking to you at all. Your arguements are purelly based on the fact you don't like Eldritch Blast, and you're basically hating on a spell, which is just sad.
Abjurers tend to be dipping warlock for unlimited Mage Armor to fill up Abjuration Shield endlessly and easily.

[NNescio]

Abjurers tend to be dipping warlock for unlimited Mage Armor to fill up Abjuration Shield endlessly and easily.

Not worth being two levels behind in spells (and ASI/feats) and being forced to have a minimum of Cha 13.

Just fill it up with Ritual'ed Alarm instead, between combats. For more hectic campaigns without the luxury of doing so, go Svirfneblin Abjurer and take the racial feat for at-will Nondetection.


Once again you prove your ignorance. When someone Dips Warlock, he does so for EB most of the time. And to put Cha into his EB. It is a perfectly viable option, and exactly because the Wizard has such versality, it can be done.

Either way, repelling blast is a + as it is a wonderous control ability on the best controler class that is the wizard.

Wizard. Intelligence caster. Your EBs are going to have poor damage and miss often.

Leave the 'Lock dips to Sorcerers, Bards and Paladins.


As I state quite clearly in the text you quoted, and you probably missed, is that it's quite possible to play the Wizlock with a Cha>Int build, even if your main class is Wizard. The Wizard's Versality, and overall ability to use spells does not need to depend on Save or Suck/Spell attacks necesseraly, and it can be used very effectivelly even with a 16 INT (end game). What I am suggesting is playtested.

Alright, with what spells then? Most of your control/BFC options (the ones that you would just love to Repelling Blast an enemy into) offer saves, while your damage ones either offer saves or rely on an attack roll. The ones that don't tend to only hamper movement and visibility (which are great, mind you, especially against things like Beholders, but you still need reliable BFC or Save or Sucks against other enemies).

Low INT also cripples your number of prepared spells. Your Dispels and Counterspells are also going to suck. Abjurer, remember? That's part of your shtick.

Also your Dex and Con are going to suffer if you're aiming for 16 INT and an even higher Cha.


Also, as an Abjurer Wizard (wich is the Build I suggest), he can keep a relativelly low Con, and substitute for it with the Tough feat in favor of 2 good casting stats.

You're MAD between CHA and INT, two levels behind in ASI/feats, and you still want to blow another feat on something that isn't Resilient (Con)/Lucky/Alert/War Caster?


With a Cha>Int buildit also makes sence to get a Scag Cantrip as a Warlock, if he is going that path.

You're already MAD, and you want to go DEX on top of that? A normal Wizard can do that better with just INT/DEX/CON.


Finally, Repelling Blast is the best ranged at-will Control ability in the whole game, and synergises perfectly with AOEs, in order to throw opponents in a Wall spell for example. Even with a 16 Cha it is reliable enough to hit.

This one I agree, but this pretty much pigeon-holes your character into Cloud of Daggers/Wall of Fire. You're not putting your Wizard spell repertoire to good use. Oh sure, it can be effective, especially if you have Clerics with Spirit Guardians and Druids with Moonbeam around, but hey, the Sorlock can do this better since he has Quicken (BFC + Repelling EB on the same turn), and he ain't MAD, so his Spell DCs are actually DECENT. He can throw a BFC or Save or Suck if he needs to.

Or heck, just go Bardlock and pick Wall of Fire with your Magical Secrets feature.

Wizlock get Ritual Casting? If you need to take Toughness anyway, those guys (not that the Bard would need to) can also take Ritual Caster (Wizard). Sorcs don't even need to take Resilient (Con), so they have another feat to spare. Heck, with Flexible Casting, Sorlocks can also convert Warlock spell slots into Sorc points or extra non-Warlock spell slots. This can get downright abusive if the Sorc has a chance to take multiple Short Rests in a row (since there is no limit to how many extra spell slots you can stock this way; they only go away after you take a Long Rest).


My advice is good, you just fail to realise it. :)

No, it's not. Anything your Wizlock is supposed to be good at, Sorlocks and Bardlocks can do better.

[Naanomi]

Not worth being two levels behind in spells (and ASI/feats) and being forced to have a minimum of Cha 13.

Just fill it up with Ritual'ed Alarm instead, between combats. For more hectic campaigns without the luxury of doing so, go Svirfneblin Abjurer and take the racial feat for at-will Nondetection.
I don't disagree really (I think it is workable but not optimized), this is generally the direction people are going with this idea

[Citan]

Once again you prove your ignorance. When someone Dips Warlock, he does so for EB most of the time. And to put Cha into his EB. It is a perfectly viable option, and exactly because the Wizard has such versality, it can be done.

Either way, repelling blast is a + as it is a wonderous control ability on the best controler class that is the wizard.

Either way, it's not the first thread I have to talk to you about Eldritch Blast and Hex, and I really don't feel like talking to you at all. Your arguements are purelly based on the fact you don't like Eldritch Blast, and you're basically hating on a spell, which is just sad.
This post just made me laugh. I love Repelling Blast, and I tend to dip in Warlock more often than not on some characters. But I do it intelligently, aka not crippling my character potential, unless it is actually my goal.

Also, there are plenty other reasons to dip Warlock depending on the main class: Shadow Monk or Rogue (Mage Armor, Devil Sight), Bard / Cleric (weapon cantrip + short rest Healing Words/Bless/Hex), any class (free Magic, extra proficiencies), Eldricht Knight (Hex), etc.

You are the (only) one putting Eldricht Blast on such a pedestal that you blind yourself to all important considerations about building a character, including the fact that you get only so many ASI and you want 1) to survive first and foremost 2) to be efficient in any action you take because you have only one per round and encounters go fast usually.
And between a 15th+ level Abjuration Wizard that can reliably hit enemies with powerful damage AOE spells, cleaning up groups of enemies with a single action, and a wanabee Warlock that will have to spend time trying to repel enemies towards a Wall of X or such inamovible "environmental" spell, which do you think will be the greater help to the party?

Your tactic is nice for a true gish who doesn't care about high level spells and want to rely on a particular trick and instead rack up ASI to bump his stats and proficiencies to help with survivability, for example Warlock 2 / Abjurer Wizard 6 / Eldricht Knight 12 (better chance to land spells after attacking, bonus action weapon attack then Eldricht Blast, 4 ASI) or Warlock 5 / Abjurer Wizard 6 / Arcane Trickster 9 (so you get both Agonizing and Repelling Blast, good defense abilities, better chance to hit when hidden, 3 ASI).

But, sorry, again, unless the character concept is to play a half-Wizard, your advice for a full caster is as bad as it gets.

EDIT: As a reminder, for the sake of clarity, what I consider bad advice is not saying "take Eldricht Blast", nor "take Repelling Blast", it's saying "it's the best choice of cantrip + Invocation whatever happens for your Wizard (beyond free Mage Armor obviously)" and, worst of all, saying "it's worth keeping starting INT and instead bumping CHA". When it's truthfully just a decent choice of occasional control, when you have someone helping you buff your chance to hit (Bless/Entangle/Stunning Strike/Lucky/etc), but not more than that. For a character whose CHA will usually be just enough for multiclass because heavy needs in INT, DEX and CON, Devil's Sight, Beast Speech, Beguiling Influence, Fiendish Vigor, Mask of Many Faces or Misty Visions are easily as good or better choices, depending on player taste, character concept and probable roles to fill in the party.