tiny creatures occupying another creatures square

[rel]

Let's say you are a medium character fighting a large number of tiny creatures and four of them enter your square to attack you.

Do you suffer any penalty from having your square occupied by 4 tiny creatures?

Do they suffer any penalty from having their square occupied by 1 medium creature and 3 tiny creatures?

[Venger]

When they enter your square, they provoke AoOs. After that, neither you nor they suffer any penalties.

[rel]

another question concerning the same basic situation.

If a tiny creature attempts to enter the square of a large creature does it provoke an attack of opportunity?

[frogglesmash]

Yes. Any time any creature enters another creatures space they provoke an AoO.

[Crake]

Yes. Any time any creature enters another creatures space they provoke an AoO.

Unless they have something like underfoot combat, or make a DC25 tumble check.

[rel]

The reason I ask is that the srd has the following rule:


Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller

Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

No mention of attacks of opportunity

[Venger]

The reason I ask is that the srd has the following rule:



No mention of attacks of opportunity

Literally right above that:


Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

[CharonsHelper]

Unless they have something like underfoot combat, or make a DC25 tumble check.

Yeah - but that's Pathfinder being mostly an exception based system. There are core rules - but there are plenty of ways to break/bend them.

[Venger]

Yeah - but that's Pathfinder being mostly an exception based system. There are core rules - but there are plenty of ways to break/bend them.

underfoot combat is from races of the wild

[Psyren]

Yeah - but that's Pathfinder being mostly an exception based system. There are core rules - but there are plenty of ways to break/bend them.

Pathfinder has no Tumble skill anymore so he was probably quoting 3.5.

[rel]

Literally right above that:

does that then mean a medium creature can walk through a gargantuan creatures space without provoking attacks of opportunity?

Also, this rule in squeezing:


A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

Do people think there are any restrictions sized based or otherwise on when this rule can apply?

[Venger]

does that then mean a medium creature can walk through a gargantuan creatures space without provoking attacks of opportunity?

No.

It means a medium creature can move through a gargantuan creature's square. He still provokes AoOs.


Also, this rule in squeezing:

Do people think there are any restrictions sized based or otherwise on when this rule can apply?

What exactly are you asking here? Do you mean when can you activate squeezing rules? You can only do it when moving through a tight space of the kind described. If you're, for example, out in the middle of a field, you can't just say you're squeezing to occupy less space to take up fewer squares unless there's some kind of reason you need to.

[daremetoidareyo]

If you're, for example, out in the middle of a field, you can't just say you're squeezing to occupy less space to take up fewer squares unless there's some kind of reason you need to.

It is kinda hilarious to imagine though.

[rel]

No.

It means a medium creature can move through a gargantuan creature's square. He still provokes AoOs.



would that be an AOO from leaving a threatened square because I'm not seeing a specific generic rule about provoking for entering someones square.

I'll get back to the squeezing question in a moment.

[Venger]

would that be an AOO from leaving a threatened square because I'm not seeing a specific generic rule about provoking for entering someones square.

I'll get back to the squeezing question in a moment.

Yes. Gargantuan creatures have a lot of reach, so before you as a medium character would be moving through the squares they actually occupy, you'd be leaving some of their threatened squares.

Again:



Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

This is the specific rule about provoking aoos for entering someone's square.

Note that it doesn't say small and larger creatures. Outside of a grapple, you cannot enter an enemy creature's square even if they are larger than you. You can only move through their square.


It is kinda hilarious to imagine though.

Oh absolutely

[rel]

so let me try and reveal some of my concerns with an example.

A cat and a dwarf need to get past a troll blocking a corridor. The troll has combat reflexes and enough dex to hit any number of times.

The dwarf double moves up to the troll squeezes through it's squares and keeps going. He provokes one attack of opportunity since moving out of one or more threatened squares only counts as one opportunity.

Next the cat double moves up just like the dwarf. However the cat provokes one attack of opportunity when it leaves the first threatened square. Then it provokes an attack when it enters the first square of the trolls space and another attack when it enters the second square of the trolls space for a total of 3 attacks.

[CharonsHelper]

Pathfinder has no Tumble skill anymore so he was probably quoting 3.5.

Oh - I agree with him. But just because there are exceptions to a rule in 3.x/Pathfinder - doesn't mean that the rule still isn't generally true. (Actually - it proves that it's generally true - since there wouldn't otherwise be an exception to it. Exception that proves the rule and all that.) In 3.x/Pathfinder - there is an exception to virtually every rule, so unless someone is specifically asking how to avoid something, you don't generally have to bring them up.

[Dagroth]

Oh - I agree with him. But just because there are exceptions to a rule in 3.x/Pathfinder - doesn't mean that the rule still isn't generally true. (Actually - it proves that it's generally true - since there wouldn't otherwise be an exception to it. Exception that proves the rule and all that.) In 3.x/Pathfinder - there is an exception to virtually every rule, so unless someone is specifically asking how to avoid something, you don't generally have to bring them up.

PHB1 p. 147 (on Moving Through Occupied Squares): "Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless (dead, unconscious, paralyzed, bound, or the like)."

"Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

"Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is. A gnome (Small), for example, can run between the legs of a cloud giant (Huge). A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. A cloud giant, for example, can step over a gnome."

"Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC."

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

Thus, entering an opponent's square (unless you're three size catagories different) provokes an attack of opportunity.

PHB1 pg 149 on Big and Little Creatures in Combat: "Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent." (emphasis mine).

And there you have it. Entering an opponent's square provokes an attack of opportunity and can only be done by Tiny and smaller creatures normally. (Obviously, Tumble & some Feats allow a character to do this.)

[rel]

What about the rule in squeezing that seems to contradict the rule you quoted. From the SRD:

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

[Psyren]

What about the rule in squeezing that seems to contradict the rule you quoted. From the SRD:

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square."

Rules Compendium 95 clarifies this line:

"If you’re Small or larger, you usually can’t end your movement in a square occupied by another Small or larger creature, effectively sharing a space with that creature."
...
"Tiny and smaller creatures can freely share space with other creatures."

[rel]

That doesn't address the fact that the squeezing rules seem to imply that you can move through other creatures by squeezing as long as you don't end your move sharing a square with them.

[Psyren]

That doesn't address the fact that the squeezing rules seem to imply that you can move through other creatures by squeezing as long as you don't end your move sharing a square with them.

My point was that it specifically lets Tiny creatures share space with other creatures. It is a more specific citation ("Tiny or smaller creatures" instead of just "creatures") and thus it trumps by RAW.

[Dagroth]

That doesn't address the fact that the squeezing rules seem to imply that you can move through other creatures by squeezing as long as you don't end your move sharing a square with them.

Actually, if you go to the pages in the Player's Handbook and look at the pictures illustrating the examples you'll see that you can't squeeze through an occupied square.

If there is a 10' wide corridor and Fighter-Dude-Bro is standing in it... A Goblin can move past him (it provokes an attack of opportunity, but he can do it). On the other hand, an Ogre must squeeze past him. For 2 squares of movement, the Ogre is only 5' wide because he's squeezing past Fighter-Dude-Bro. Those 2 squares of movement cost the Ogre double.

If the Ogre wants to go down a 5' wide corridor, he's got to squeeze the entire time. If Paladin-Bro-Dude is in the corridor, the Ogre cannot go past without a DC 25 Tumble check... or killing Paladin-Bro-Dude, which he'll have a hard time doing at -4 to attack rolls and -4 AC because he's squeezed.