Redesigning the D&D economy

[Rusvul]

D&D's economy has always bothered me a little, and since I'll be running a game with an emphasis on business and politics in the not-too-distant future, I thought I'd set about fixing it. I identified a few things I'd like in a redesigned economy.


Everything should make logical sense and be internally consistent. (Historical accuracy is not required.)
PCs shouldn't have access to almost all mundane gear immediately - high-quality armor and weapons should be expensive enough so as to be out of reach of most commoners, but PCs should have whatever weapons and armor they need by level three (most items) or five (heavy armor). Essentially, I want mediocre weapons and those crappy armors that never show up in games to actually see a little use at low levels. (To provide a sense of moving up in the world in the early game.)
PCs can, using the money obtained adventuring, do things such as run businesses, build strongholds, trade goods from one place to another, and live more expensive lifestyles. All of these things should be sensibly priced and should provide tangible rewards.
PCs should be able to become landed nobility without breaking the system. Doing so should provide tangible rewards.
Wealth should not equal combat power directly, like in some earlier editions, however some correlation by way of alchemical items, poisons, and minor magical items is desireable.
Wages for different jobs should make sense. Peasants should make enough to sustain (but not advance) themselves. Craftsmen should make enough to advance a little if successful. Working a job should be a viable downtime activity, and should have more detail than "covers your living costs."


The problem is... I have no idea how to do this. 5e gives DMs very little advice on how to give out wealth - all of its sage wisdom essentially amounts to "give the PCs however much money you feel like they should have." The rules on running businesses and organizations are also very light.

One thought I had was to start with lifestyle costs and work outwards from there. "Peasants make this much, and can thus afford these things." I rapidly ran into problems when assigning values to items - I don't know how much a cow or 300lbs of salt should cost, but the PHB says they're equivalent in value and that seems absurd.

I'm... not sure where to go from here. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

[ad_hoc]

Have you played 5e yet?

I ask because your plan about levels 1-3 seems off. Levels 1 and 2 typically last a session each (or less!).

It might be best to run a normal game first. You may even find that in play it is closer to what you want than it at first reads.

[Knaight]

Take the 5e equipment section, scrap it entirely, and replace it with the one from ACKS. Done.

[ZZTRaider]

You can't purchase magical items by default. Outside of early levels when heavy armor users want to upgrade to full plate, I can't really think of a time that more money really equals more power.

Is there a particular case you have in mind that's a problem?

[LudicSavant]

Essentially, I want mediocre weapons and those crappy armors that never show up in games to actually see a little use at low levels. (To provide a sense of moving up in the world in the early game.)

One of the frustrating things is that the "mediocre" and "crappy" weapons and armors weren't actually all that crappy in real life. Cloth armor, for example, is actually really good (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODS7ksbBRuE). But in 5e it's, bafflingly, a noisier, worse version of studded leather whose only advantage is that it's slightly cheaper. And that's pretty silly.

Likewise, there's no reason that, for instance, a mace is strictly inferior to a quarterstaff, or that a trident is exactly the same as a spear except that it requires martial weapon proficiency, or that light hammers just plain do less damage than handaxes or javelins. That's not really an economic issue, it's just a basic balance and design issue.

[Hrugner]

5th ed isn't really designed for this level of specificity in mind. Most of the day to day costs are handwaved away through the lifestyle system; by bundling your societal role and your lifestyle together into one package, they can escape the problem of micromanaging an economy. It could be useful to know the value of a person's assets based on their lifestyle, but you rarely get to liquidate someone on that level, so it shouldn't come up much.

For determining income, look at the daily cost of the lifestyle a particular downtime activity says you can maintain. For people trying to get ahead in life, assume that either they live below their means in order to generate savings, or they work more than the normal amount and generate a second income keeping the difference. For determining how much liquid wealth someone has on them, assume they can get their hands on two weeks worth of income. If you sell everything in their home, assume you can get 1 month of their income per lifestyle level they maintain. wretched 0, squalid 6gp, poor 18gp, modest 120gp, comfortable 300gp, wealthy 720gp, noble 2100gp minimum (hopefully my sleepy math is fine).

For players who want to expand their economic reach, let them determine how many people they can afford to support and begin hiring people with their excess income. For example, an entertainer who chooses to live a modest lifestyle rather than a comfortable one, can afford to support 5 craftsmen with the excess funds.

[Contrast]

Everything should make logical sense and be internally consistent. (Historical accuracy is not required.)

So when you've got a good start on that a couple of decades from now you can move on to your other bullet points...

If adventuring allows you to get rich quick, why isn't the king sending his guards to get whatever this massive source of wealth is? If you're not adventuring what are your PCs doing that Joe Schmuck the commoner couldn't also be doing?

As others have said, its not clear if you have much experience with 5e. For instance, once you've bought plate mail, there really isn't a lot else you can buy in 5e to boost your power levels. At that point its all just vanity cash to be spent on fun stuff (unless the DM chooses to introduce other things).

I'm not quite sure what you're expecting the tanglible beneifts of being landed gentry as being other than easier access to certain echelons of soceity, a reasonable standing income and standard of living and the occasional plot hook. Don't need a system for that, you just need to account for it as a DM. If you meant being more of a regional power with a small army at your disposal - just make sure what doesn't happen until they're an appropriate level and make the threats of a kind which need the PCs to handle.

[Unoriginal]

Everything should make logical sense and be internally consistent. (Historical accuracy is not required.)

5e's economy is already like this, mostly. It has its flaws, but they're not that bad.



PCs shouldn't have access to almost all mundane gear immediately - high-quality armor and weapons should be expensive enough so as to be out of reach of most commoners, but PCs should have whatever weapons and armor they need by level three (most items) or five (heavy armor). Essentially, I want mediocre weapons and those crappy armors that never show up in games to actually see a little use at low levels. (To provide a sense of moving up in the world in the early game.)

Err... yes, that's already what the system do?



PCs can, using the money obtained adventuring, do things such as run businesses, build strongholds, trade goods from one place to another, and live more expensive lifestyles. All of these things should be sensibly priced and should provide tangible rewards.

That's already things the books allow



PCs should be able to become landed nobility without breaking the system. Doing so should provide tangible rewards.

Becoming landed nobility is not an economical thing, but in any case the books do talk about that.




Wealth should not equal combat power directly, like in some earlier editions, however some correlation by way of alchemical items, poisons, and minor magical items is desireable.

Are you talking about starting wealth per level? Because otherwise wealth does not equal combat power in 5e.



Wages for different jobs should make sense. Peasants should make enough to sustain (but not advance) themselves. Craftsmen should make enough to advance a little if successful. Working a job should be a viable downtime activity, and should have more detail than "covers your living costs."

Yes, it's already what is happening, as per the rules.

5e is definitively more "handwave and estimate" than precise economical calculations, but still.



One thought I had was to start with lifestyle costs and work outwards from there. "Peasants make this much, and can thus afford these things." I rapidly ran into problems when assigning values to items - I don't know how much a cow or 300lbs of salt should cost, but the PHB says they're equivalent in value and that seems absurd.

What's so absurd about it?


One of the frustrating things is that the "mediocre" and "crappy" weapons and armors weren't actually all that crappy in real life. Cloth armor, for example, is actually really good (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODS7ksbBRuE). But in 5e it's, bafflingly, a noisier, worse version of studded leather whose only advantage is that it's slightly cheaper. And that's pretty silly.

D&D is basically making it out of tradition, at this point. Maybe I should use the leather armor stats for the gambeson.

[Cespenar]

A cheating way would be:

Assign a RL monetary value to a gold, silver and copper, something like 1 silver = 2 USD. You can do this via the meal costs in inns as a rule of thumb.

Then ballpark everything else via their RL equivalents. Let's say founding a small business would take 50k in IRL (don't quote me). Convert it by your rate and tell them 2500 gp.

Of course the differences between RL and pseudo-feudal age fantasy realms should be blatant, but at least this can prove some consistency that you could then edit however you want.

[MrStabby]

I think the first thing to consider might be to change the XP thresholds.

As it is it is relatively easy to level up to the stage where you can cast fabrication spells that break a lot of standard economic assumptions. If you double the XP required for each level up each time a player would level up (i.e. 1-2 is normal, 2-3 takes twice as much xp, 3-4 takes 4 times, 4-5 takes 8 times as much XP...) then high level abilities will be pretty rare. It will be easier to train more soldiers, better equip and feed soldiers than it will be to find high level adventurers.

This will mean the the way to have more combat power is through more money; something that will help reinforce the economic and political aspects of your world.

[SilverStud]

Hello friend! I am not here to belittle your idea, or to throw shade on your experience with 5e. If you haven't had much experience yet, though, you can rejoice that it isn't nearly as bonkers as previous editions. The economy is mostly workable, with only a few "huh??" moments.

Here's my advice. If your campaign is set in the Forgotten Realms, it really isn't worth it to overhaul the economics system. HOWEVER, if you are homebrewing a campaign and world, I believe it is worth it!

A while back I had a very similar question, and from time to time other like-minded people ask as well. When I asked, I too got a thread full of people just trying to dissuade me from thinking economically. But I also had a person who gave me a link to an incredibly useful PDF. Some people out there basically made a "RPG economics for dummies" document. It is 80 pages of easy-to-understand explanation about economics in a typical low technology setting.

Grains into Gold (https://archive.4plebs.org/dl/tg/image/1367/58/1367589904931.pdf)

So if you wanna go through the effort of making a more believable economy (in what world does a loaf of bread cost the same as a chicken!?!) and have your more nuanced socio-political game, then do it. You'll have a ton of fun!

EDIT: Disclaimer: not everyone on this thread is being a naysayer. I particularly like Mr. Stabby's suggestion.

[Haldir]

D&D's economy has always bothered me a little, and since I'll be running a game with an emphasis on business and politics in the not-too-distant future, I thought I'd set about fixing it. I identified a few things I'd like in a redesigned economy.


Everything should make logical sense and be internally consistent. (Historical accuracy is not required.)
PCs shouldn't have access to almost all mundane gear immediately - high-quality armor and weapons should be expensive enough so as to be out of reach of most commoners, but PCs should have whatever weapons and armor they need by level three (most items) or five (heavy armor). Essentially, I want mediocre weapons and those crappy armors that never show up in games to actually see a little use at low levels. (To provide a sense of moving up in the world in the early game.)
PCs can, using the money obtained adventuring, do things such as run businesses, build strongholds, trade goods from one place to another, and live more expensive lifestyles. All of these things should be sensibly priced and should provide tangible rewards.
PCs should be able to become landed nobility without breaking the system. Doing so should provide tangible rewards.
Wealth should not equal combat power directly, like in some earlier editions, however some correlation by way of alchemical items, poisons, and minor magical items is desireable.
Wages for different jobs should make sense. Peasants should make enough to sustain (but not advance) themselves. Craftsmen should make enough to advance a little if successful. Working a job should be a viable downtime activity, and should have more detail than "covers your living costs."


The problem is... I have no idea how to do this. 5e gives DMs very little advice on how to give out wealth - all of its sage wisdom essentially amounts to "give the PCs however much money you feel like they should have." The rules on running businesses and organizations are also very light.

One thought I had was to start with lifestyle costs and work outwards from there. "Peasants make this much, and can thus afford these things." I rapidly ran into problems when assigning values to items - I don't know how much a cow or 300lbs of salt should cost, but the PHB says they're equivalent in value and that seems absurd.

I'm... not sure where to go from here. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

Have you read the 5e DMG? There is a pretty decent section devoted to all this stuff, of which the only thing you mentioned that I think really needs a rework is the mechanics for running a business, as the rolls required to be profitable are actually pretty unlikely to hit.


If you really need a consistent economy, I'd base your financial system on the rarity of diamonds or other expensive jeweled spell components, a sort of Spell-Component Standard, if you will.

[Dr. Cliché]

I know it was for 3.5, but didn't Emperor Tippy invent some sort of currency that couldn't be created or replicated by magic (other than Wish)?

[Spookykid]

it would also be more realistic to use the listed prices as silver instead of gold and make 1 gp = 100 sp

[Unoriginal]

I know it was for 3.5, but didn't Emperor Tippy invent some sort of currency that couldn't be created or replicated by magic (other than Wish)?

You mean gold coins?

I mean, the only thing that can create gold other than Wish are minor artifacts.

[Knaight]

Hello friend! I am not here to belittle your idea, or to throw shade on your experience with 5e. If you haven't had much experience yet, though, you can rejoice that it isn't nearly as bonkers as previous editions. The economy is mostly workable, with only a few "huh??" moments.

There are a lot of holes, and while some are much more egregious than others (elephants), it's generally pretty iffy.

[Tanarii]

D&D's economy has always bothered me a little, and since I'll be running a game with an emphasis on business and politics in the not-too-distant future, I thought I'd set about fixing it. I identified a few things I'd like in a redesigned economy.Not to put too fine a point on it, but if that's the kind of game you want to run you're better off not using the D&D system at all. Choose a game system that will support the game emphasis you want, not require a ton of adjustments at all levels to make it work. D&D is a game of resource management and depletion. D&D in general, is also designed for exploration & combat, and in some (mostly earlier) editions moving on to domain-level management & combat. Social interactions are important, but mostly in the process of those other things (especially in a combat-as-war game or games that reach domain-level). None of that works effectively for a game with an emphasis on business and politics. Unless what you're actually going to run is a game with an emphasis on heist/espionage.

[Rusvul]

Firstly, thanks for all the replies. Hearing people's thoughts is always appreciated.

On my experience with 5e: I know the mechanics of the game quite well. I have played a lot at low levels, though games I'm in tend to die before 6th or 7th rolls around. The campaign I've spent the most time with is Out of the Abyss, which... doesn't have much in the way of gold or places to spend it. I don't know how to "run a normal game first" - there seems to be no standard for what "normal" is.

On buying power: I failed to provide context in this regard. (Apologies.) I also plan to build a system wherein magical items can be crafted using components found adventuring. This is, functionally, not much different than placing magic swords and the like in the dragon's hoard - but it's (IMO) thematically cooler and provides more freedom for the players if, instead of finding a magic sword, they are able to craft one using the power contained within the dragon's heart. (This requires some more commonplace magical components and a proper working place, hence the gold expenditure.) For less powerful components, it also gives the PCs some say in what magic consumables they acquire. This wouldn't found magic items entirely, rather, the idea is to supplement them. Of course, more magic items results in more powerful PCs, which I'm prepared to balance for.

I plan to implement a similar system with poisons and alchemy, with more powerful substances becoming more difficult to find and more expensive to buy. The goal here is that power can't be readily bought, but if the players go looking to turn their gold into adventuring prowess, they can do so (to a limited extent).

On acquisition of mundane equipment: In 5e, PCs start with most of the mundane gear they need. A first-level 5e Fighter won't upgrade their weapon ever, until and unless they find a magic one. Their armor has a little more room for change, with Splint being 200gp and Plate 1,500gp, but even then it seems a little odd that things like ring mail and hide even exist. I intend to re-price the armor and weapons so that wearing chain and carrying a halberd is something to be achieved, not an assumed baseline for a first level character. (That's not to say it should take long to achieve - a few levels, perhaps, but no more than that.)

On "the books already do these things": Without a baseline of how much a gold coin is worth and how many of them the PCs ought to have, the (extremely light) rules on stronghold building are not very helpful. The rules for running a business are pretty much entirely nonfunctional, and the benefits of maintaining a wealthier lifestyle are extremely nebulous and poorly-defined. I can find at most two paragraphs on PCs as landowners, and neither of them are particularly helpful. There is a little bit written in the books geared towards doing what I'm trying to, but... it's not very helpful.

On "other systems would be better": You're absolutely right. Other games do "business and politics" much better than D&D. However, "business and politics" - despite being my description - is honestly a pretty poor description of the game I want to run. "Dungeon delving and combat with opportunities for economic and political advancement using gains obtained adventuring" would be a better description. Resource management and adventuring will of course remain the heart of the game, I just want to provide more reason for the players to want gold than the books do. Apologies on the confusion.

@SilverStud: Thank you, I've only skimmed so far but this looks superbly useful. I'll read more of it when I get the chance.

[Unoriginal]

On buying power: I failed to provide context in this regard. (Apologies.) I also plan to build a system wherein magical items can be crafted using components found adventuring. This is, functionally, not much different than placing magic swords and the like in the dragon's hoard - but it's (IMO) thematically cooler and provides more freedom for the players if, instead of finding a magic sword, they are able to craft one using the power contained within the dragon's heart. (This requires some more commonplace magical components and a proper working place, hence the gold expenditure.) For less powerful components, it also gives the PCs some say in what magic consumables they acquire. This wouldn't found magic items entirely, rather, the idea is to supplement them. Of course, more magic items results in more powerful PCs, which I'm prepared to balance for.

This edition is not really designed for "buy your magic items", even if it's just using ressources they find.




On acquisition of mundane equipment: In 5e, PCs start with most of the mundane gear they need. A first-level 5e Fighter won't upgrade their weapon ever, until and unless they find a magic one. Their armor has a little more room for change, with Splint being 200gp and Plate 1,500gp, but even then it seems a little odd that things like ring mail and hide even exist. I intend to re-price the armor and weapons so that wearing chain and carrying a halberd is something to be achieved, not an assumed baseline for a first level character. (That's not to say it should take long to achieve - a few levels, perhaps, but no more than that.)

Why do you think the PCs should struggle to have the equipment of a basic city guard, when they're equal or superior to this NPC from level one (or at least, before they hit level 3)?

If you really want to make people change weapons and armors, make it so that they get worn down and damaged through adventuring and fighting, and that they needs to be replaced periodically.

[Tanarii]

On "other systems would be better": You're absolutely right. Other games do "business and politics" much better than D&D. However, "business and politics" - despite being my description - is honestly a pretty poor description of the game I want to run. "Dungeon delving and combat with opportunities for economic and political advancement using gains obtained adventuring" would be a better description. Resource management and adventuring will of course remain the heart of the game, I just want to provide more reason for the players to want gold than the books do. Apologies on the confusion.Ah yeah, that's a totally different thing. My college-era campaign where the first party of (mostly Evil) PCs decided to have a Green Dragon (which they had befriended instead of killing) cast Plant Growth on the fields of weed they had planted. Did I mention this was in college? :smallbiggrin: Anyway, they then proceeded to set up and run a criminal business empire based on their "Dragon Bud" trade, spanned a large part of the FR Western Heartlands by the time I left college and the campaign rolled to a close.

Point being, besides my rambling nostalgia, that yeah business and politics being the driving reason for standard D&D type adventures in an urban settings works pretty well. Especially the aforementioned Heist/Espionage (and other roguish activities) style of games. But IMO it works just as well to wing the actual economics of the situation to make sense as they happen. You don't need to build a fully-functioning economic base model to do it. Especially since market forces can make prices vary fairly wildly.

[War_lord]

Actually, I felt 5e did give you a good idea of how much a Gold coin is worth, a Gold coin is worth one goat. To your average farmer, that's quite a sum

You have to remember that Medieval societies didn't have Fiat money. Most people used a barter system for goods and services. Only those who needed mobile wealth (nobles, merchants, mercenaries and so on) made frequent use of coinage, and typically those coins derived value from their actual precious metal content (which was why why coin clipping was such an issue for most of the history of coinage).

[FabulousFizban]

But what do your players want?

Unless you are an economics student or enthusiast, i wouldnt advise messing w/ game economy too much.

The first step is deciding what kind of economy your world operates on: capitalist (fuedal), communist (agrarian), post-money, pre-money, etc.

[Tanarii]

You have to remember that Medieval societies didn't have Fiat money. Most people used a barter system for goods and services.IIRC even local merchants & guild members didn't use coinage. They used their own personally issued script & and/or tracked who they owed and who owed them in their ledgers. So you could barter debts owed locally, in the form of script or informing the person owed/owing that the debt had been transferred to someone else so the ledgers could be adjusted. But it wouldn't transfer outside of (or into) the local economy very well.

Neil Stephenson had a wonderful accounting of exactly such an attempt to do long-distance business would work (or fail to work) in such an environment in one of his Baroque Cycle books.

[War_lord]

capitalist (fuedal), communist (agrarian)

What on earth is that meant to mean?

There's nothing Communist about an Agrarian society, most of Feudal Society was Agrarian, and the Feudal system wasn't capitalist.


IIRC even local merchants & guild members didn't use coinage. They used their own personally issued script & and/or tracked who they owed and who owed them in their ledgers. So you could barter debts owed locally, in the form of script or informing the person owed/owing that the debt had been transferred to someone else so the ledgers could be adjusted. But it wouldn't transfer outside of (or into) the local economy very well.

Neil Stephenson had a wonderful accounting of exactly such an attempt to do long-distance business would work (or fail to work) in such an environment in one of his Baroque Cycle books.

Ah, thank you for correcting me, always good to learn something new. Only thing is, that wouldn't translate well to D&D.

[Tanarii]

Ah, thank you for correcting me, always good to learn something new. Only thing is, that wouldn't translate well to D&D.I learned it through osmosis of third-hand psuedo-historical fiction, not actual historical studies. So take it with a grain of salt. (ie disclaimer apparently needed if it's being thought of as a correction. :smallbiggrin: )

However, for some really fun fantasy economic implications of real world economics applied to D&D, see critical-hits Dungeonomics:
http://www.critical-hits.com/blog/category/critical-hits/columns/dungeonomics/

[Grondar]

You may be looking at the forest and not seeing the tree. Your players may be interested in a particular profession, such as tavernkeeper, blacksmith or landed gentry (not sure if that is a profession) but the point is you may only need to figure out the economics surrounding one business and not all businesses.

[Vogonjeltz]

D&D's economy has always bothered me a little, and since I'll be running a game with an emphasis on business and politics in the not-too-distant future, I thought I'd set about fixing it. I identified a few things I'd like in a redesigned economy.

•Everything should make logical sense and be internally consistent. (Historical accuracy is not required.)
•PCs shouldn't have access to almost all mundane gear immediately - high-quality armor and weapons should be expensive enough so as to be out of reach of most commoners, but PCs should have whatever weapons and armor they need by level three (most items) or five (heavy armor). Essentially, I want mediocre weapons and those crappy armors that never show up in games to actually see a little use at low levels. (To provide a sense of moving up in the world in the early game.)
•PCs can, using the money obtained adventuring, do things such as run businesses, build strongholds, trade goods from one place to another, and live more expensive lifestyles. All of these things should be sensibly priced and should provide tangible rewards.
•PCs should be able to become landed nobility without breaking the system. Doing so should provide tangible rewards.
•Wealth should not equal combat power directly, like in some earlier editions, however some correlation by way of alchemical items, poisons, and minor magical items is desireable.
•Wages for different jobs should make sense. Peasants should make enough to sustain (but not advance) themselves. Craftsmen should make enough to advance a little if successful. Working a job should be a viable downtime activity, and should have more detail than "covers your living costs."


The problem is... I have no idea how to do this. 5e gives DMs very little advice on how to give out wealth - all of its sage wisdom essentially amounts to "give the PCs however much money you feel like they should have." The rules on running businesses and organizations are also very light.

One thought I had was to start with lifestyle costs and work outwards from there. "Peasants make this much, and can thus afford these things." I rapidly ran into problems when assigning values to items - I don't know how much a cow or 300lbs of salt should cost, but the PHB says they're equivalent in value and that seems absurd.

I'm... not sure where to go from here. Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated.

Literally all of these things are tackled in the PHB and DMG combined.

1) PCs don't have access to all gear immediately, they typically only have about 10gp to spare, sometimes none.

2) Running businesses is a downtime activity (DMG 129), so is building a stronghold (DMG 128), trading goods (PHB 133, PHB 157), and live different lifestyles (PHB 157, PHB 187).

3) PCs can become nobility, it's one of the listed possible rewards. (DMG 230)

4) Wealth should not equal combat power (5th bullet) contravenes your prior statement (2nd bullet) that higher quality arms and armor should be expensive enough to be out of reach early on. Both notions can not co-exist.

5) Wages for different jobs do make sense. (PHB 187) (Professions provide a modest lifestyle, membership in organizations a comfortable one, proficiency with performance enough for a wealthy lifestyle, and some backgrounds guarantee certain accomodations in various circumstances, for example Entertainers can expect to get free lodgings and food on their travels.

Chapter 7 of the DMG is entirely devoted to treasure, and other rewards.


For the Diablo-style creation of magic items, if you remain intent on it, I'd recommend just taking the approximate value of the end item and then dividing that amongst the number of components and saying when they've acquired X components the item is finished.