Paladin building advice.

[Athear]

I am looking to play a paladin but I am also trying too avoid the charger build.
as that would steal the thunder of an other player.
we are a 12th level party full wealth, Dragon magazine is not allowed, Book of exalted deeds and book of vile darkness is grey listed so best stay away from them.
I wan to hit hard and be the sturdy hero. I've played on game with her but as it was only like half an hour I can still completely rebuild her so the first step was too lose the mount. I choose to take Divine spirit instead, as the CW ACF is garbage. My DM may change up the spirits to better suit his gods and the gods he created.

Now I was thinking of also kicking my spell casting since the paladin spell list is sub par at best and so limited
I was looking at the complete champion variant.
I'd like thoughts and advice maybe even a list of good spells if there is no way to make dropping spells potent.

[Dagroth]

I am looking to play a paladin but I am also trying too avoid the charger build.
as that would steal the thunder of an other player.
we are a 12th level party full wealth, Dragon magazine is not allowed, Book of exalted deeds and book of vile darkness is grey listed so best stay away from them.
I wan to hit hard and be the sturdy hero. I've played on game with her but as it was only like half an hour I can still completely rebuild her so the first step was too lose the mount. I choose to take Divine spirit instead, as the CW ACF is garbage. My DM may change up the spirits to better suit his gods and the gods he created.

Now I was thinking of also kicking my spell casting since the paladin spell list is sub par at best and so limited
I was looking at the complete champion variant.
I'd like thoughts and advice maybe even a list of good spells if there is no way to make dropping spells potent.

There are two wonderful feats to consider.

Battle Blessing, which makes all your Paladin Spells swift actions to cast.
Sword of the Arcane Order, which allows you to memorize Wizard spells with your Paladin spell slots.

There is a great deal of debate on if said Wizard spells would be Paladin spells (since they're in Paladin Spell slots), but it is generally accepted that they would not be (thus, not affected by Battle Blessing).

[Venger]

are you familiar with the a-game paladin? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin) it does a lot toward improving pally's spell list

[Athear]

are you familiar with the a-game paladin? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin) it does a lot toward improving pally's spell list

I was looking more towards kicking it out entirely as I personaly am not a fan of Spell casting and only am really good at clerics how ever we have a cleric all ready a charger monk who surprisingly well built actualy too a scary degree. we have two gishes ( one a tank and the other I'm not sure) but I'll take a look.

so what are your thoughts on just losing the spell casting?

also should mention I'm human chosen as it is a investigative story so i need ALL the skill points i can pull out my butt. hell even my rogue didn't have enough because god damn forbidden lore...

[Deeds]

Do you want to build a paladin for its mechanics or for the role playing experience? Either choice is fine. Just know that mechanically the 3.5 paladin is already considered a weak choice and to boot you wish to drop its best tools.

If you want to be a paladin for the role playing then I suggest you play another class. Crusaders, fighters, and knights could fill the paladin shtick.

[Dagroth]

I was looking more towards kicking it out entirely as I personaly am not a fan of Spell casting and only am really good at clerics how ever we have a cleric all ready a charger monk who surprisingly well built actualy too a scary degree. we have two gishes ( one a tank and the other I'm not sure) but I'll take a look.

so what are your thoughts on just losing the spell casting?

also should mention I'm human chosen as it is a investigative story so i need ALL the skill points i can pull out my butt. hell even my rogue didn't have enough because god damn forbidden lore...

If you're going to lose spell casting, play a Crusader.

[lord_khaine]

Perhaps some sort of Paladin2/Bard/Ranger build could do the trick?

If the Op mainly want the flavor of being a paladin. And also wants a lot of skillpoints for investigating things.

Or maybe Paladin/rogue if he insists on not having any spellcasting? Can we find any viable build of that sort? Maybe something with a few levels of Factotum?

[Firechanter]

If you're going to lose spell casting, play a Crusader.

This.
I'm not aware of any _worthwhile_ replacements for Spellcasting.

I have once made a slightly toned-down version of the A-Game Paladin, which avoids the nasty Illumian race and functions just fine for Humans, as long as you have at least 32 point buy.

Crusader is fine out of the box, though. Mix in a few levels of Bard and take Song of White Raven, works like a charm.

[weckar]

If you're going to lose spell casting, play a Crusader.
Which, if you're a poor spellcaster or don't enjoy playing one, won't help much at all. Mechanically they are too similar.

[Firechanter]

Which, if you're a poor spellcaster or don't enjoy playing one, won't help much at all. Mechanically they are too similar.

Depends on what one doesn't like about spellcasting. I also used to dislike it, but for me the problem was that of limited resources -- i.e. "is now the right time to cast spell X? Then I won't have it anymore for the rest of the day. What if I need it later?". I'd often finish adventuring days with the majority of my spells uncast. That changed only over time and with much practice.
Or maybe they are just overwhelmed with the plethora of options. It's hard to pick if you have 200 spells to choose from and only have a handful of slots.

All that is not an issue with an Initiator like the Crusader. There is only a very limited set of Maneuvers you need to choose from. And any maneuvers you use aren't gone -- they will refresh in a few rounds. The Crusader in particular can _never_ run out no matter how many maneuvers she spams.

[weckar]

Perhaps. Decision fatigue is certainly a factor. A more common complaint I've seen though is having to know so many more options, and in what situations they will work for you. Having to know a ton of mechanics (and every maneuver adds to that) is not fun for everyone.

[Dagroth]

Perhaps. Decision fatigue is certainly a factor. A more common complaint I've seen though is having to know so many more options, and in what situations they will work for you. Having to know a ton of mechanics (and every maneuver adds to that) is not fun for everyone.

That's the other thing about Crusaders. Even if you know a bunch of maneuvers, you don't get to pick which ones you have ready at the beginning of the combat, or which ones you get when you use the ones you start with.

It's "Well, I've got 5 maneuvers, but I'm starting combat with A, C & D. I could really use maneuver E. I hope I get it after I use maneuver D."

[weckar]

That doesn't take away that you still need to know what they do. Although at that point I suppose you may as well have them on a deck of cards you're drawing from...

[Dagroth]

That doesn't take away that you still need to know what they do. Although at that point I suppose you may as well have them on a deck of cards you're drawing from...

Which is actually the recommended player mechanic for the class.

[Faily]

I look forward to the day when I read threads about "Help with my class" that it won't have answers that are "play another class instead". :smalltongue:

Back on topic: Have you asked your GM to consider porting in some Pathfinder? Warrior of the Holy Light (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/warrior-of-the-holy-light/) is an arctype that sacrifices spellcasting and instead makes you into that shining beacon of hope, literally.

It would need some changes to work with the mechanics of Lay on Hands in 3.5, but I'd suggest the following for a quick and easy change to 3.5 mechanics. Not perfect, but a suggestion:


At 4th level, the warrior of the holy light's Charisma score count as 1 point higher than it normally is for determining how much she heals with Lay on Hands. This increases for every four levels she attains beyond 4th. She can use 10 points of her lay on hands ability to call upon the power of her faith as a standard action. This causes a nimbus of light to emanate from the warrior of the holy light in a 30-foot radius. All allies in this area (including the warrior of the holy light) receive a +1 morale bonus to AC and on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear as long as they remain in the area of light. This power lasts for 1 minute.


At 14th level, a warrior of the holy light can unleash a 30-foot burst of pure, white light as a standard action by spending either 1 use of her Turn Undead ability or 20 points from her Lay on Hands ability . Evil creatures within this burst take 1d6 points of damage for every two paladin levels and are blinded for 1 round. Evil dragons, evil outsiders, and evil undead are blinded for 1d4 rounds on a failed save. A Reflex save halves this damage and negates the blindness. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the warrior of the holy light’s level + the warrior of the holy light’s Charisma modifier. good creatures within this burst are healed 1d6 points of damage per two paladin levels and receive a +2 sacred bonus on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks for 1 round.

[Athear]

So my issue is the paladin spells are okay but not spectaculur at epic levels I still only have 12 spell and a lot of the good ones where circumstantial and I have a feeling would never come up.
but if there is no way to decently get rid of spell casting what are some recommended spells assuming I don't just prestige out.

[Dagroth]

So my issue is the paladin spells are okay but not spectaculur at epic levels I still only have 12 spell and a lot of the good ones where circumstantial and I have a feeling would never come up.
but if there is no way to decently get rid of spell casting what are some recommended spells assuming I don't just prestige out.

Oh... Epic levels.

Sorry, can't really help you there a lot. Epic Level Spellcasting is only for the Big Three (Cleric, Druid & Wizard/Sorcerer) and not even for Druid so much.

Decent Spells for a Paladin...
Spell Compendium:
Fell the Greatest Foe
Holy/Lawful Weapon.
Rhino's Rush.
Knight's Move (Poor Man's Teleport)
Zeal.

[Athear]

Oh... Epic levels.

Sorry, can't really help you there a lot. Epic Level Spellcasting is only for the Big Three (Cleric, Druid & Wizard/Sorcerer) and not even for Druid so much.

Decent Spells for a Paladin...
Spell Compendium:
Fell the Greatest Foe
Holy/Lawful Weapon.
Rhino's Rush.
Knight's Move (Poor Man's Teleport)
Zeal.

cool thanks we aren't epic yet but we are nearing that point.

[Athear]

So I was also looking into the Knight of the chalice as a PRC looks good judging by what we are fighting I think feind slaying would work as It states evil outsiders so I am thinking that would include Cathulian horrors. but is it as impressive as it looks?
i will also bring up something with my dM because depending on his ruling it may make the PRC to situational to be useful.

[Dagroth]

So I was also looking into the Knight of the chalice as a PRC looks good judging by what we are fighting I think feind slaying would work as It states evil outsiders so I am thinking that would include Cathulian horrors. but is it as impressive as it looks?
i will also bring up something with my dM because depending on his ruling it may make the PRC to situational to be useful.

Cthulhian Horrors are Outsiders, and they're Evil... so yeah, it would work.

[Athear]

Cthulhian Horrors are Outsiders, and they're Evil... so yeah, it would work.

by RAW and RAI but maybe not in my DM's mind he likes to make **** up and toss rules out and hates any thing optimized.

[Dagroth]

by RAW and RAI but maybe not in my DM's mind he likes to make **** up and toss rules out and hates any thing optimized.

Heh. Knight of the Chalice is certainly not optimized. Especially since they have their own spell list rather than improving an existing class.

[Firechanter]

Cthulhian Horrors are Outsiders, and they're Evil... so yeah, it would work.

I reckon they are the prototype of Aberrations. I mean, look at Mind Flayers, tentacle faces and everything.

[Dagroth]

I reckon they are the prototype of Aberrations. I mean, look at Mind Flayers, tentacle faces and everything.

Well, you could always get Topaz Guardian (from Lords of Madness) then.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How about an Intimidate/fear anti-spellcaster who's still good at melee? This build is at level 20, but you can scale it back. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5)

[Athear]

welp I'm thinking about a few PRCs now: Ordained champion though that may not work since none of the DM's war gods are with in my alignment, but i think it may still work regardless.
If not Pious templar looks good too.
or as suggested Topaz guardian, or if my DM allows it the anointed champion from Exalted cheese.
Occult slayer also seems interesting though with one the house rules makes it dangerous.
his little beasties dominate your mind if you roll high on your will save.

[Dagroth]

welp I'm thinking about a few PRCs now: Ordained champion though that may not work since none of the DM's war gods are with in my alignment, but i think it may still work regardless.
If not Pious templar looks good too.
or as suggested Topaz guardian, or if my DM allows it the anointed champion from Exalted cheese.
Occult slayer also seems interesting though with one the house rules makes it dangerous.
his little beasties dominate your mind if you roll high on your will save.

Wait....

If you succeed really well on your will save, you get dominated?

What? :smallconfused:

[Athear]

yup exactly

[etrpgb]

Who else is in your party? If the power level is high (Wizards, Archivists...) I suggest to do not play the normal Paladin, play a Cleric/Prestige Paladin 3. You have the powers that make a Paladin a Paladin (Aura of courage, Divine health, and Divine grace) and for the rest the Cleric spellcasting is simply better.

I speak by experience, and in a group with a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard my Paladin was often dead weight. Even the Rogue (unless fighting immune enemies) was more useful.

So, once you are Cleric/Prestige Paladin 3 look for prestige class that allows you to hit hard: Ordained Champion, Knight of the Raven, Seeker of the Misty Isle*, Ruby Knight Vindicator (but then it's simpler play a Crusader) and Bone Knight comes to mind. There are many nice classes that usually are frowned upon because they lose spellcasting, but since you want to play a hard hitting Paladin it might not matter if you cannot cast Miracle.


Since the mount is important, you have two easy choices: Spider domain (irk...) to get Phantom Steed or Bone Knight/2. So at level 14 I'd go with: Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3/Bone Knight 5. You can simply continue up to level 19 with the Bone Knight and for the last level... Cleric 7? it gives BAB...

Edit: my bad. The prestige paladin gives the special mount at level 2! So no big deal!


*You have to be an (half)Elf and by RAW it's a 10/10 spellcasting class. The table skips two levels, though. Ask your DM what he thinks, I honestly think it's a bit unfair skipping two levels.

[BobsYourUncle!]

Battle Casting is amazing:) but if you don't take spell casting you need some other schtick, Crusader is great out of the box. Maybe some kind of battle control like spiked chain and trip however that is better done with a fighter or other class. For nice damage output you could go ranger/paladin and I think its Devoted Hunter? leading into Cavalier..close to the charging thing though with ride by attacks and lance strikes but good damage output overall.

[Athear]

Okay tomb of battle is a banned book so no I will not be playing a crusader.
We have two gishies, a monk (a very potent monk), the most ineffectual cleric ever and a druid NPC

[etrpgb]

Druid, Cleric, Gishes (Duskblade or similar?)... I suggest again the Prestige Paladin.

Here is list of Paladin feats you might want to check:

Bane of Decay (DR337 p98)
Detoxifying Touch (DR337 p98)
Exalted Smite (BoED p42)
Extra Remove Disease (DR337 p98)
Extra Smiting (CWar p98)
Gift of Grace (BoED p43)
Hands of the Healer (BoED p43)
Improved Smiting (CDiv p82)
Ranged Smite Evil (BoED p45)
Silver Smite (Eb p60)
Smite Carrier (DR337 p98)
Smite Carrier (DR337 p98)
Strengthen Resilience (DR337 p98)
Touch of Silver (FoE p148)
Wholesome Fare (DR337 p98)

Edit, wait. Let me get it straight. In your party are a Cleric, a Druid, Gishes and the Tome of Battle is banned? It sounds the DM is from the school that Fighters cannot have shiny things. It is the case?

[Athear]

Yes also I previously stated that for the most part Wanted to stay away from BOED as it is a grey listed book boardering on banned as well, nor is any thing from dragon magazine allowed

[GrayDeath]

I can sympathize with banning DragMag and BoED (first for balance, second for bad taste AND bad balance), but banning ToB in Games where regular T1 and 2 Classes run around is ...weird.
Although depending on what exactly the Gishes are it MIGHT be to prevent them from being totally outclassed. ^^

Anyhow, since he already shows 2 red flags for me (banning ToB without general nerf of many arcane things or boosting regular Martials in other ways) and being strange with some rules9 why not play in another game? Sounds like this is way more hassle than its worth, plus playing a Paladin is hard with GOOD GM`s. Is he likely to be one of the almost typical "Paladins MUST FALL!!!" Guys?

[Soranar]

It's going to be hard without the mount: a paladin's mount gets pretty potent at higher levels and you don't get much from trading it away.

Race: the two best choices in your case are dragonborn warforged (due to the substitution levels + immunities) or killoren (the killoren smite works against nearly everything)

First, I would recommend the feat :from smite to song (champion of valor fear) which turns your smite evil into inspire courage

The only decent trade for a paladin's mount is a divine spirit (spirit of war is ok at level 10+)

You can use the bonus feats from complete champion to get : power attack, extra smite, blindfight

since you're not a spellcaster I would recommend the mage slayer feats, wield a reach weapon and go for an AoO build

combine with travel devotion to move around the battlefield

[etrpgb]

I can sympathize with banning DragMag and BoED (first for balance, second for bad taste AND bad balance)

I cannot sympathize instead, if Wizards and Druids are allowed to ban completely the Dragon Magazines makes little sense to me, even less sense if the argument is "balance." Some of the most unbalanced things are already in Core (eg, Polymorph, Shapechange...) or in the PHB2 (eg, Celerity line, Abrupt Jaunt).
Yet, apparently so many Master decide to blanket ban the Dragon Magazines because once in a while something is overpowering (eg, Half-Minotaur) or somewhat ridiculous (eg, Secret of Firebrand Feat).

[Venger]

I cannot sympathize instead, if Wizards and Druids are allowed to ban completely the Dragon Magazines makes little sense to me, even less sense if the argument is "balance." Some of the most unbalanced things are already in Core (eg, Polymorph, Shapechange...) or in the PHB2 (eg, Celerity line, Abrupt Jaunt).
Yet, apparently so many Master decide to blanket ban the Dragon Magazines because once in a while something is overpowering (eg, Half-Minotaur) or somewhat ridiculous (eg, Secret of Firebrand Feat).

people usually ban dragon magazine because the content is poorly edited and balanced, yes, but the larger issue is one of access. it's a real pain to look through all those random issues of dragon compared to looking through the first party books, and they're comparatively more difficult to lay hands on.

[Metahuman1]

Banned tome of battle, hates "anything optimized", prone to throwing out the rules and making stuff up like changing creature types so you won't get your bonuses huh?




Give up. Between that and other remarks made so far, I'm forced to conclude that the DM really doesn't know what there doing, and worse, while they don't know what there doing, really, really thinks they do.


Such DM's have a tendency to not be that much fun to deal with in my experience.

[Athear]

Banned tome of battle, hates "anything optimized", prone to throwing out the rules and making stuff up like changing creature types so you won't get your bonuses huh?




Give up. Between that and other remarks made so far, I'm forced to conclude that the DM really doesn't know what there doing, and worse, while they don't know what there doing, really, really thinks they do.


Such DM's have a tendency to not be that much fun to deal with in my experience.

Though all that was said is true. I find immense pleasure in wiggling through his rules, optimizing the **** out of things especially under powered things.
also he really is good at telling a compelling story. it's just hard to optimize with him which make it all the more fun when you do and he's like HOW!? lol
How ever I really do want to continue in his game as I said he is an AMAZING narrator. and I really do want to play this paladin Reguardless just need a little help from more veteran players.

[etrpgb]

What was wrong with Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3/Bone Knight X?

about "hard to optimize", it's not your DM. Just be a Druid it's in core and it's easy to optimize (no prc, one less feat than normal because level 6 is natural spell...)

Honestly I became a bit bitter with "no, you cannot do that' Masters. Usually I just answer: "is Archivist fine? No? Druid then."

[Firechanter]

Though the A-Game Paladin has already been mentioned, I'd like to direct your attention specifically towards From Smite To Song. That alone makes the Paladin class about twice as good, even without the other shenanigans like Wizard Spellcasting or Dragonfire Inspiration. Of course you'll want to spice that up with extra uses and an optmized bonus, plus ideally a Harmonizing Weapon.
Of course you'll also take Divine Spirit, it costs nothing and gives a lot.

So in short, instead of adding something like +5 to Attack and +10 to damage for a _single attack_, you and everyone else in the party - including the Charger who will love you for it - adds something like +5 to Attack and Damage to _every single attack for the whole encounter_. Did I say twice as good? That's _exponentially_ better! Even without the Words of Creation from Book of Exalted Cheese, which of course would double your character power again.

[etrpgb]

From Smite to Song is indeed a nice feat, too bad when I played my Paladin I did not own Champions of Valor.

But how can double it with Dragonfire Inspiration? Via Virtuoso or Heartfire Fanner? It sounds difficult.

Yet, I guess that using Flaws you can arrive to something like this.

(Factotum/Rogue is to open access to skills, mainly "Perform")
Factorum or Rogue 1/Cleric 7/Prestige Paladin 3/Heartfire Fanner 4/Ordained Champion 5

If you can slot all the Feats you need:
Able Learner to use skill freely,
Smite to Song to get inspire courage bardic music,
Dragontouched*/Dragonfire Inspiration to get the good bonus to damage,
Negotiator, Skill Focus (Perform) to join the Heartfire Fanner.

It might work nicely!

*or just be a Silverbrow Human

[Firechanter]

You don't need Virtuoso or HFF, just stick to Paladin all the way. As long as you switch out almost every single core class feature for an ACF, it is a really awesome class. :smallbiggrin:
(Well, maybe you _can_ use these PrCs, never looked at the combo.)

Concerning DFI, I'm not really a fan. Granted, it's pretty good for Sword&Boarders, but that's a low bar to jump. THFers gain almost nothing -- equivalent to 0.5dmg per attack, great ROI for two feats investment. :smalltongue:

If you need to see the math for that:

Inspire Courage is +n/+n to attack and dmg.
DFI adds n d6 = 3.5 in energy damage.
With Power Attack you can (as THFer ofc) swap n attack for 2n dmg
So if you convert all your Inspire Courage Attack bonus to dmg, you get a total of 3n dmg.
Difference: 0.5n dmg.
Even Weapon Focus offers a better ROI at this point.


That changes if you have access to multiple performers, up to five. Then DFI becomes awesome. One can IC, and each additional one can DFI in a different colour. Great for powering up entire armies (think Perform:Alphorn) into unstoppable steamrollers. But if that's your shtick -- why go Paladin? Be a Bard and be done with it.

I just dug out my build for the Human version of the A-Game Paladin -- complete with Words of Creation, and doesn't even need Flaws to function - what you do need is a stat generation method equivalent to PB32 or better.
However, it has one problem, the same as the original Illumian A-Game Pal: it assumes you can join _two_ Orders, Harmonious and Mystic Fire Knights. So basically you need to refluff it or ignore the associated fluff entirely. If that's off the table, I'd drop Mystic Fire Knight in a pinch, and instead of SotAO pick a feat that makes use of your Turn Undead attempts.
Anyway, here goes:

Stats (32 Point Buy):
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 14*, Wis 14, Cha 14*
*: Boosts at levels 4 and 8. Further boosts wherever you like them, for instance Wis for bonus spells.

Race: Human
R: Feat: Spellcasting Prodigy
1: Feat: Power Attack
3: Feat: From Smite to Song
4: ACF Mystic Fire Knight (lose Turn Undead)
5: ACF Divine Spirit (lose Special Mount)
6: Feat: Sword of the Arcane Order
6: ACF Harmonious Knight (Inspire Competence) (lose Remove Disease)
9: Feat: Song of the Heart
9: ACF Harmonious Knight (Inspire Greatness) (lose Remove Disease)
11: ACF Divine Spirit (Combat)
12: Feat: Battle Blessing
15: Feat: Words of Creation
16: Divine Spirit (Heroism)
18: Feat: Practised Spellcaster
18: [Inspire Greatness 4]
20: [Inspire Courage +5]

Further optimization potential:
As with pretty much each and every non-fullcaster build in the world: start out with a single level of Cloistered Cleric, _then_ switch to Paladin. Need I explain why? Damn, that's the most stupid-overpowered, frontloaded class in the entirety of 3.5. You even qualify for Words of Creation 3 levels sooner.

Toning it down:
I'm aware that you prolly won't be allowed to take WoC anyway, just wanted to post my build. Without WoC, the only reason to take such a high Int score would be SotAO -- so again, you can dump that, pick something else, and pump another stat.

[etrpgb]

To anyone curious, here is where the Harmonious Knight come from (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (inside the .zip file).

While I wouln't call the Paladin with those ACF "really awesome" ("really awesome" means capable as the Druid class), it's definitely a good improvement to the original and it can easily adapted to the Prestige Paladin too, just replace levels with 1, 4, and 8. This ACF replaces useless features with meaningful ones.


Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin Harmonious Knight 8/Cleric 6
is then another great combo.

[Dagroth]

One little nit-pick on saying Inspire Courage is better...

You can't convert the bonus from Inspire Courage to "Moar Power Attack!!".

If you're already Power Attacking for full, Inspire Courage gives you the same thing it gives you when you're not Power Attacking at all.

Yes, it opens up more of your BAB to be used for Power Attack, but most damage comparisons assume Power Attacking for full every time.

[Firechanter]

most damage comparisons assume Power Attacking for full every time.

Whut? What kind of enemy do you have to be fighting to get an optimal result at Max Power Attack, that doesn't get better by further improving your To Hit? oÔ

Basically what you're saying is everybody assumes that every enemy, ever, will automatically be hit on anything but a Natural 1.
In my experience, the only case where this is even remotely true is for Charger Builds with Shock Trooper. _When_ they get to charge.

[Athear]

Okay so so far I have Fighter 2, Paladin 5 and Soul-Gaurdian 5.
I don't yet have any feats save for Iron will. which is needed for Soul-Guardian.
for spells I prepped Exorcism, and moment of clarity for level one.
awaken sin, and bull strength for lvl 2
and rightious fury for lvl 3