Intelligent item, constructs and CR

[Keral]

Hi!

The players in my campaign took longer to overcome the latest things I had prepared, enough that I now have enough advance content to last for a few sessions. As such, I wanted to invest this free time designing something a bit different.

By [S]stealing taking inspiration from a post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21748340&postcount=8) I read yesterday, I wanted to make an intelligent contruct caster, but I'm a bit lost.

Now, I'm not a great fan of the permanency spell, so the only other way I found to make an intelligent construct is to start with an intelligent item.

The rules says that they can be considered creatures and to treat them as constructs. But then, how do I calculate its base CR? (it's going to advance by class levels so that'll be easier)

The only thing I could find that might be related is the animated objects' CR, but they have their own stats...


I'd really really like to avoid chapter 5 of MM, so I'd really appreciate if someone had any insight to share.


I'm aiming at something medium. Since the base is an intelligent item, it has no Con, Str and Dex scores, I think. But surely, by using the intelligent items rules its base CR should change depending on whether I choose the lowest mental scores rather than the highest, or whether I give it lots of special powers or not, right?

[Coidzor]

Awaken Construct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken-construct/). Instantaneous duration so it can't be dispelled. I believe it has no effect on the construct's CR until you start adding class levels to it.

Rudimentary Intelligence (Dragon 327) from a high-CL creator would also allow for an intelligent construct that could theoretically take class levels. Increases the CR by 1 if it's between 12 and 23 racial HD or increases the CR by 2 if it has 24 or more RHD. 11 or fewer RHD don't have any change to the CR.

These are both methods that last for as long as the construct exists and don't use the Permanency spell.

Those both require you to have a base construct and make it intelligent, though, rather than trying to make an intelligent Item into a construct.

[Flickerdart]

Intelligent items do not have CR, because they should never be encountered without a wielder. When they are encountered with a wielder, they contribute to his WBL as an item, not directly to his CR as an encounter.

If you wanted to assign the item a CR, you'd have to do so for each specific combination of abilities. But intelligent items have almost no attacks.

Lesser powers:
None

Greater powers:
Cause fear
Dismissal
Wall of fire (only when wielded)
Slow
Fear

Only dedicated powers can be used to attack, and there are pretty significant restrictions on when these can be used. And even dedicated powers are just 4th or 5th level spells - these do not make a monster.

On top of that, intelligent items have no more HP/hardness than a typical item - they would be incredibly fragile and easy to destroy. There is no correct CR that can be assigned.

[Keral]

If you wanted to assign the item a CR, you'd have to do so for each specific combination of abilities. But intelligent items have almost no attacks.



On top of that, intelligent items have no more HP/hardness than a typical item - they would be incredibly fragile and easy to destroy. There is no correct CR that can be assigned.

Well, taking a spellcasting class would have taken care of the attack part, but I hadn't considered hp/hardness. So that's definitely out.


Awaken Construct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/awaken-construct/). Instantaneous duration so it can't be dispelled. I believe it has no effect on the construct's CR until you start adding class levels to it.

Rudimentary Intelligence (Dragon 327) from a high-CL creator would also allow for an intelligent construct that could theoretically take class levels. Increases the CR by 1 if it's between 12 and 23 racial HD or increases the CR by 2 if it has 24 or more RHD. 11 or fewer RHD don't have any change to the CR.

These are both methods that last for as long as the construct exists and don't use the Permanency spell.

Those both require you to have a base construct and make it intelligent, though, rather than trying to make an intelligent Item into a construct.

I had initially discarded awaken construct as a viable idea because of the humanoid shaped caveat. Although thinking about it now it seemed a bit silly since I could just make up a copy without it. I should know better than to start plotting late at night. The last time I did it a whole city disappeared :smalltongue:

I looked up Rudimentary Intelligence but it's not entirely what I was looking for. The bit about the CR adjustment based on HD is awesome, but the intelligence score it gives is a bit low if I intend for the construct to be a spellcaster.

So actually, I think I'll just merge the two, using the latter by giving int as the former does.


Thanks a bunch!

[Uncle Pine]

Intelligent items don't have a CR, but the Eberron Campaign Setting has a monster called Living Breastplate. It's not a construct (instead being an aberration), but as a symbiont it can be worn by a host and either passively grant him various bonuses or take control of him thanks to its ego score, which is calculated similarly to that of an intelligent item (more info in ECS 298-300).

As a creature, you can use a living breastplate as a standalone CR 1 opponent or with a host, whose CR would be increased by +1. Alternatively, you can stack templates on it or even give it class levels (it has an Int score of 10).

[Flickerdart]

Intelligent items don't have a CR, but the Eberron Campaign Setting has a monster called Living Breastplate. It's not a construct (instead being an aberration), but as a symbiont it can be worn by a host and either passively grant him various bonuses or take control of him thanks to its ego score, which is calculated similarly to that of an intelligent item (more info in ECS 298-300).

As a creature, you can use a living breastplate as a standalone CR 1 opponent or with a host, whose CR would be increased by +1. Alternatively, you can stack templates on it or even give it class levels (it has an Int score of 10).

Aren't living breastplates considered minor artifacts? Dispensing them as CR1 creatures is giving your party free powerful gear.

[Vizzerdrix]

Could minor servitor be cast on it somehow?

[Uncle Pine]

Aren't living breastplates considered minor artifacts? Dispensing them as CR1 creatures is giving your party free powerful gear.

I don't think I've ever seen the definition of minor artifacts applied to them. The fact that it's stated they're considered holy relics by the Cults of the Dragons Below doesn't make them more minor artifact-like than other symbionts from the Eberron Campaign Setting or the Fiend Folio.

You're right saying they're pretty darn good when handed to PCs that can get along with their LE alignment, their goals and/or their reasonably low ego score (9 isn't that much). However, the OP seemed to want to use an enchanted armor as an opponent rather than loot, so the living breastplate will most likely not be willing to cooperate with the party. Should they defeat it and try to force it to do their bidding, they'll probably realize that donning a hostile creature with spellcasting/manifesting capabilities and/or SLAs is as dangerous as it sounds.

[Segev]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514794-Craft-Construct-requires-CL-5-is-it-useful-at-that-level) and ... well, crud, I can't find the thread that lists constructs by CR and HD and gives HD/GP ratios.

Anyway, the linked thread has a lot of discussion of animated objects as constructs you can build using Craft Construct rather than needing a permanency spell on animate objects.

As magic items, Constructs are valid targets for the intelligent item rules.

Make an Animated suit of armor as a Medium Animated Object construct, and then apply the Intelligent Item rules to it (just increases its costs). As a monster, you can start assigning class levels to it, and calculate the adjusted CR appropriately.

[Coidzor]

3.5 Constructs by gp/HD and gp/CR. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514789-3-5-PC-accessible-Constructs-and-their-GP-HD-and-GP-CR-ratios&p=21732729&viewfull=1#post21732729)

If, for some reason, price is relevant to you as the DM, this thread has several price ratios.

Probably should have included attack bonus and gp/attack bonus, too.

[Keral]

Thank you!

As usual you guys are wonderful! :smallbiggrin:

[Zombimode]

I don't think I've ever seen the definition of minor artifacts applied to them. The fact that it's stated they're considered holy relics by the Cults of the Dragons Below doesn't make them more minor artifact-like than other symbionts from the Eberron Campaign Setting or the Fiend Folio.

I'm away from books right now, but they are definately designated as minor artifacts in Magic of Eberron.
Also, are you sure about the "CR +1" thing?

[Uncle Pine]

I'm away from books right now, but they are definately designated as minor artifacts in Magic of Eberron.
Also, are you sure about the "CR +1" thing?
"Challenge Rating: 1 (singly) or host+1 (when worn)".