Animate dead + vile death

[Aurosman]

So I just got access to the spell vile death and wondering what exactly does it do to my animated dead. I understand it gains the fiendish template, but since it gains an int of 3 what would that do to an undead.

1. Would I still contoll it due to me animateing it, or do I need to rebuke it? (Yes I understand it says its independent of me, just don't lknow if animating changes that)

2. Does it gain any of its old abilities if it had any since its intelligent now?

3. Would it be able to speak now? Or is its intelligence too low still?

4. Any other info you can think of would help.

[Eldariel]

The spell you're looking for is Vile Death, not Undeath - its latest version is in Spell Compendium. I'm thus going by that.

1. It's independent so you have no control unless you have other means of controlling it (Control Undead, Rebuke, etc.)

2. Old abilities? Generally not, but it does gain feats and skills.

3. Creatures with Int 3 or higher (that is, e.g. Fiendish creatures) know a language. Whether they can speak depends on the physiology of the creature though.

[Aurosman]

My mistake on the name, vile death was correct and I fixed it.

Since it gains skills and feats does it regain what it had, or does it gain new ones depending on its HD?

[Flickerdart]

My mistake on the name, vile death was correct and I fixed it.

Since it gains skills and feats does it regain what it had, or does it gain new ones depending on its HD?

New ones - the intellect inhabiting the undead is that of a fiend, not its mortal soul.

[Eldariel]

My mistake on the name, vile death was correct and I fixed it.

Since it gains skills and feats does it regain what it had, or does it gain new ones depending on its HD?

Vile Death has no language about the creature regaining anything and since its sentience comes from a fiend spirit (and it doesn't have any previous class levels or such anyways), I think the only reasonable answer is gaining new ones on the spot, based on its HD. Something like Zombie or Skeleton loses all its class levels in the transformation anyways and the more advanced Undead have none to start with. If it were like a Dread Warrior [Unapproachable East], that'd be a different story, but those are not valid targets and they retain those abilities anyways.

Awaken Undead [Spell Compendium] on the other hand at least allows e.g. Zombies to regain their proficiencies they had in life as well as extraordinary racial abilities, but the feats are still gained from the Undead HD of the Zombie.

[Segev]

From a fluff perspective, if you like the notion that skeletons and zombies are inherently evil, the "fiendish" template being applied could simply be a form of advancement. That is, the evil energies animating them grew stronger until they developed a true sentience of their own.

[OldTrees1]

1. Would I still contoll it due to me animateing it, or do I need to rebuke it? (Yes I understand it says its independent of me, just don't lknow if animating changes that)

2. Does it gain any of its old abilities if it had any since its intelligent now?

3. Would it be able to speak now? Or is its intelligence too low still?

4. Any other info you can think of would help.

1) No. The Vile Death spell has the effect of making it independent (fluff: you just replaced your controlled undead spirit with an independent fiend spirit). This is one of those Specific trumps General things.

2) No. It gains feats and skills as an intelligent undead. It will never regain the abilities that the skeleton/zombie template removed.

3) 3 Int can speak, but the languages it knows are undefined. I would rule Common + 50/50 chance of Infernal or Abyssal.

4) Don't do it! A Fiendish Skeleton cannot be controlled like other Skeletons and is not useful enough to take up space in your Rebuke Undead pool.

If you want an intelligent minor undead: Animate Dead can control Awakened Undead and Animate Dead can be used to create a few kinds of intelligent undead (Necrosis Carnex is in MM IV has 4HD and 3 Int)

[Segev]

Yeah, I never understood why a necromancer would cast a spell to marginally increase the power of his minions and simultaneously lose his control over them.

[Zaq]

Yeah, I never understood why a necromancer would cast a spell to marginally increase the power of his minions and simultaneously lose his control over them.

I don't think there's anything preventing you from spending resources to subsequently reestablish control (whether through getting a high enough Rebuke check or by casting Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) or something similar). Or maybe the necromancer in question is sufficiently convinced of their own persuasiveness that they believe that an intelligent and Evil-aligned undead thing with a starting attitude of Indifferent can be convinced to go along with whatever plan the necromancer has in mind, and they view the boost to intelligence as being worth the tradeoff? This isn't likely to be true, but villains tend to be full of hubris, and this spell is pretty clearly designed for villains. (Even Evil PCs aren't likely to want to spend the resources to cast the spell and maintain control, and PCs don't generally benefit from making their minions smarter.)

Still a headache that makes the spell less than amazing, but I can see weird edge cases for it being used as a plot spell. Though I can't ever see why a PC would use it.

[OldTrees1]

I don't think there's anything preventing you from spending resources to subsequently reestablish control (whether through getting a high enough Rebuke check or by casting Command Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) or something similar).

Not Command Undead because the creature is no longer mindless and the resulting undead is not worth a place in the Rebuke Pool.

[Segev]

Not Command Undead because the creature is no longer mindless and the resulting undead is not worth a place in the Rebuke Pool.

While I agree that it probably isn't worthwhile, it is worth noting that command undead still works...it just doesn't grant perfect control. It merely raises the "indifferent" attitude to "friendly." As per charm person, save that (obviously) it works on undead and is not [Mind-Affecting].

[OldTrees1]

While I agree that it probably isn't worthwhile, it is worth noting that command undead still works...it just doesn't grant perfect control. It merely raises the "indifferent" attitude to "friendly." As per charm person, save that (obviously) it works on undead and is not [Mind-Affecting].

True, but I personally only call it "control" if it interacts with the multiple controllers rules.

[DrMotives]

Seems more like a world-building spell, much like Awaken Undead. Both of these allow a creature to be build up with class levels, but the whole thing has a "loose sweater thread" that can be pulled by anyone with enough power to dispel the original enchantment.

[Segev]

True, but I personally only call it "control" if it interacts with the multiple controllers rules.

Technically, I think it does. You have to roll an opposed Cha check to get the 'charmed' minion to do what you say if it wouldn't normally do so. If another guy also 'charms' your minion, you'd roll opposed Cha checks with him to see which guy the minion 'chose' to obey.

The opposed controller rules are opposed Cha checks, as well. So it amounts to the same thing.

It's just that going from "absolute control with no save" to "allows a save and is only a Charm effect" is a huge nerf, for a minion who isn't THAT much better than before, and who COST you something to make less controllable.

[Eldariel]

Well, depends on the Zombie. E.g. Zombie Hydra getting feats can be a huge improvement particularly if you have the means to determine said feats (I suppose you could mind control it and Reformation it to pick 'em if DM doesn't allow selecting through casting the spell). And moving away from your Animate control pool isn't necessarily a bad thing since that frees up space for new stuff; Command Undead has a nigh' unlimited pool so while the control isn't as absolute, it still expands what your horde rather significantly.

EDIT: The one real advantage Vile Death has over Awaken Undead is that it can grant 3 Int to animal intelligence creatures (such as Hydras) humanoid intelligence with all that entails. The other minor benefits are pretty whatever, but that means it can e.g. be commanded verbally while an animal intelligence creature has some restrictions on how you can go about that.

[Aurosman]

The reason I don't use awaken undead is because I don't have access to it yet. The main reason i was thinking about it was my party is lacking in ranged and I got a couple of archers that could benefit from some feats. The int would also help so I don't have to always give them orders and they could react by themselves.

I'm not too worried about my rebuking pool, I have 64 HD worth of space.

[OldTrees1]

Well, depends on the Zombie. E.g. Zombie Hydra getting feats can be a huge improvement particularly if you have the means to determine said feats (I suppose you could mind control it and Reformation it to pick 'em if DM doesn't allow selecting through casting the spell). And moving away from your Animate control pool isn't necessarily a bad thing since that frees up space for new stuff; Command Undead has a nigh' unlimited pool so while the control isn't as absolute, it still expands what your horde rather significantly.

I see a disconnect:
1) You could have awakened the hydra and kept it under full control Animate Dead
2) You could rebuke the Vile Death hydra OR you could rebuke a better kind of undead
3) You could charm the Vile Death hydra OR you could Command a skeletal/zombie hydra OR you could charm a better kind of undead.

In none of these cases does the Vile Death Hydra come out on top.


The reason I don't use awaken undead is because I don't have access to it yet. The main reason i was thinking about it was my party is lacking in ranged and I got a couple of archers that could benefit from some feats. The int would also help so I don't have to always give them orders and they could react by themselves.

I'm not too worried about my rebuking pool, I have 64 HD worth of space.

If you have space in your Rebuke Undead pool, perhaps invest in Ghoul/Wight/Wraith archers rather than Fiendish Skeleton Archers?

Sidenote: What tools are you using to improve your Rebuke Undead pool to 64HD? I must admit I have not yet cataloged the boosts to that pool.

[Zaq]

Also, Awaken Undead is a level 7 spell, while Vile Death is a level 9 spell (both on the Sor/Wiz list), so that's a thing. It's rather difficult to have access to Vile Death without having access to Awaken Undead.

I suppose a Cleric without access to the Deathbound domain has access to Vile Death but doesn't have access to Awaken Undead, but that's still kind of an edge case, and a Cleric capable of casting Vile Death is also capable of casting Miracle to mimic Awaken Undead, so that's not much of an issue.

Maybe we could focus on the duration? Normally it's better for a duration to be Instantaneous (as is the case with Awaken Undead) than Permanent (as is the case with Vile Death), but if you have some weird reason for wanting an undead critter to be intelligent in a manner that you can take away, then I guess Vile Death offers that option?

It's pretty darn hard to come up for an argument for using Vile Death instead of Awaken Undead, honestly. As I said, it seems to mostly be a plot spell.

[Eldariel]

I see a disconnect:
1) You could have awakened the hydra and kept it under full control Animate Dead

The only real advantage Vile Death has is granting the Hydra humanoid intelligence and some minor benefits. But it's still an advantage; while generally too expensive to bother with, it's worth keeping in mind for if it might have a payoff in any given niche situation. But it's hard to produce other types of good undead under your control; Zombies and Skeletons of creatures that make good Zombies or Skeletons (Dragons, Hydras, few bruiser-types) tend to be worth the effort though and sometimes it's convenient to grant them sentience.

[Flickerdart]

If you can't get an Int 3 creature to go along with your plans, you don't deserve to call yourself Evil.

[Zaq]

Now that I reread Awaken Undead, the spell seems to imply that you gain some measure of control over the mindless undead you awakened, even if you didn't have it already. The spells says that the undead in question will "don armor and take up weapons while obeying your commands," and it doesn't say that they would already need to be ready to obey your commands.

If anything, this is likely just a bit of a dysfunctional curiosity, but I do think that it's kind of funny that a caster can theoretically wrench an enemy necromancer's beloved zombies and skeletons away from them by making them smart (and yet those smart undead are still willing to follow your commands). I can totally see a cheeky Bard pulling that off with a scroll. (Getting even stupider with this, the spell wouldn't necessarily break the control that the original necromancer had over the undead, but even if you aren't able to become their sole master, you can still definitely interfere with whatever their original master wanted them to do.)

Well, actually, now that I think about it, if we do accept this interpretation, this can still be useful for primary necromancers. Just make more undead than you can normally control (through your Animate Dead limit, your rebuke limit, or whatever), but then make those uncontrolled undead willing to obey your commands with Awaken Undead.

Are there any spells (or class features) that directly break a given character's control over an undead servant (specifically one that's controlled through Animate Dead or through a rebuke-based command pool)? No, just killing the original master isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that specifically has the primary function of saying "those undead are no longer actually yours."

[OldTrees1]

Now that I reread Awaken Undead, the spell seems to imply that you gain some measure of control over the mindless undead you awakened, even if you didn't have it already. The spells says that the undead in question will "don armor and take up weapons while obeying your commands," and it doesn't say that they would already need to be ready to obey your commands.

I read that as "Will do X & Y while condition Z is true". The "is true" is often not explicitly stated, "while running" means while the condition running = true.

So I do not see Awaken Undead as granting control, merely detailing some of the new commands the undead will accept now while under your control.

[Segev]

I read that as "Will do X & Y while condition Z is true".

So I do not see Awaken Undead as granting control, merely detailing some of the new commands the undead will accept now while under your control.

I concur with this reading; it looks like a conditional, rather than additional, clause.

[Aurosman]

I'm a dread necromancer, so as of right now I have a 80 HD pool for animated, and 64 HD rebuke pool. So we get vile death not awaken undead, seems pretty stupid to me, that's why I don't have access to it yet. And as for better undead, I can't get better undead yet... I think.....

[OldTrees1]

I'm a dread necromancer, so as of right now I have a 80 HD pool for animated, and 64 HD rebuke pool. So we get vile death not awaken undead, seems pretty stupid to me, that's why I don't have access to it yet. And as for better undead, I can't get better undead yet... I think.....

Some quick questions:
1)What level are you? 80HD Animate Dead pool sounds suspiciously low.
80=2*2*2*2*5 and after 8th level Dread Necromancer Animate Dead pool is (Class level * (4 + Cha mod)). So you could be 8th level with 22 Cha(too low level to cast Vile Death), or 10th/16th level with 18 Cha/12 Cha(too low of level and cha to cast Vile Death).

2)What are you boosting your Rebuke Undead pool with. Undead Mastery only applies to your Animate Dead pool, but there are plenty of other boosts you might be using. What are they?

3)Can you cast Vile Death? If you are high enough to cast Vile Death(18th level for Dread Necromancers) then you are high enough level to cast Animate Dread Warrior or to create some better undead via Create Undead / Greater Create Undead.

[Aurosman]

I'm level 8, charisma is 22 so a 6 modifier ((4+6))x8 =80. Versatile spellcasting is how I can cast it. I have to blow all my spellf to cast it, but we have a month in game between campaigns.

As of rebuke pool I was wrong, it was the command undead pool I was thinking of. My bad.

[OldTrees1]

I'm level 8, charisma is 22 so a 6 modifier ((4+6))x8 =80. Versatile spellcasting is how I can cast it. I have to blow all my spellf to cast it, but we have a month in game between campaigns.

As of rebuke pool I was wrong, it was the command undead pool I was thinking of. My bad.

Aw. I was hoping for some neat buffs to my Rebuke Undead pool. :(
Good news is that the command pool from the Command Undead spell is not HD capped.

Versatile Spellcaster is not recursive. You cannot spend 4 slots to cast a spell 2 levels higher. It requires spell slots as input but does not grant spell slots as an output(it casts the spell).

Well based on where you are right now (8th level), you might want to create a Wight (people slain by negative levels such as by Enervation arise as Wights*). Although I would reach an understanding with your DM that you will not use the Wight to control other Wights (that is too powerful). In 3 levels you will be able to create Necrosis Carnexs with Animate Dead and in 4 levels you will be able to cast Awaken Undead.

*Although whether they are the Monster Manuel Wights or the Savage Species Wight Template is up to your DM.

[Aurosman]

Well my DM is ruling that I can use versatile spellcaster cause it does state I know all my spells at level 1. So I'm just following that.(even if he is wrong)

As far as I can tell animate dead only let's you make skeletons or zombies. Create undead at my level only let's me create ghouls. So how would I be able to create a wight?

[Segev]

Well my DM is ruling that I can use versatile spellcaster cause it does state I know all my spells at level 1. So I'm just following that.(even if he is wrong)

As far as I can tell animate dead only let's you make skeletons or zombies. Create undead at my level only let's me create ghouls. So how would I be able to create a wight?

Do you have any means of inflicting negative levels? If so, you create wights by killing things with negative levels.

You then control them by command undead to 'charm' them, or you flat-out rebuke/command them.

[OldTrees1]

Well my DM is ruling that I can use versatile spellcaster cause it does state I know all my spells at level 1. So I'm just following that.(even if he is wrong)

Wow. So your DM is ruling you can cast 9th level spells at 8th class level? Better run that by them again to double check by explicitly asking if they meant you can cast 9th level spells now that you are 8th level.

If so:
Forget Animate Dead, you are now casting Plague of Undead(max hp undead) for all your animating needs.
Planar Binding can help find some outsiders to slay and turn into Corpse/Bone Creatures via Create Undead(no minimum caster level specified).

However sticking with Wights might be more balanced.


As far as I can tell animate dead only let's you make skeletons or zombies. Create undead at my level only let's me create ghouls. So how would I be able to create a wight?


Do you have any means of inflicting negative levels? If so, you create wights by killing things with negative levels.

Enervation is Dread Necromancer 4. So all Dread Necromancers can gain access to Wights fairly early.