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View Full Version : How to deal with extreme railroading and other minor proble s?



Saint Jimmy
2017-02-27, 01:41 PM
First off, I wanna say that this is a NEW DM so I'm just trying to figure out ways to talk to him about these issues in his game that kinda bother me. Other then the issues presented he's actually a good DM, I'm just not sure how to talk with him about these things. I'm also not quite sure if he even is in the wrong on some of these, so I'm asking for your opinions on that.

So I have been gaming with this guy forever, he is a good player, and somewhat recently I was invited to join his new group, which had already played a few sessions. I roll up a character, and join. A few sessions in, we get this talk about how he made "something awesome". It was a maze, we spent 20 rather frustrating minutes getting lost with the DM just telling us that we need to "just think, it's not that hard!" I was getting kinda frustrated and asked if we could just skip the maze, it seemed like no one was having fun. (I don't know if the others were or not, but it did not appear that they were at all to me, but that could be bias.) The response went something along the lines of "well I like it and I made it, so you are going to do it." Now I get that kind of reasoning, it's only his first time DMing, and people want to do what they like, but it's still frustrating. Other things like this have happened multiple times, but this is the example I remember the best.Any clue how to talk to him about that without being a jerk? (I'm not really an emotional or socially aware person and I tend to accidentally make those who are mad by being completely oblivious until it's too late, and he can get kinda defensive/emotional about this kina stuff).

Secondly, the issue of home brewing extra powers for monsters that don't affect their levels but let them regain what appeared to be a quarter or so of their health. (This one a simple rules-oriented discussion about why that shouldn't happen as it screws up balance should work, but if anyone has better ideas about it I'm defenitely open to hearing them.

Third, the issue that is easily defined by this statement. (Some of this was discussed earlier in this post but the rest of it is down here)
"If didn't plan what you are trying to do, you can't do it. If I don't like it, you can't to it. If it goes off the main storyline, you can't do it."
This was tolerable when it was things like "no you can't go check and see if the city guards are hurting innocents, I get that your character is super protective about the common people, but I didn't plan for anything like this and don't know how to plan for the possible fallout of that." Again, he's new, no one can plan for everything. For stuff like that I just say Ok and move on. However, last session it got waay worse. I dragged my brother along, who hasn't played in awhile, because they were missing a player. When he was given the missing players sheet, he was told that if he died or something it wouldn't affect the actually player. However, the DM had a huge problem with him not being the exact same alignment as the missing player, and it took the rest of the group awhile to convince him to just let it slide so we could play. After we started, my brother started doing crazy stuff like tying a sunrod to his arm and running ahead singing "this little light of mine" or "the battle hymn of the republic". NOW, this was probably a little out of hand, but it was entertaining so no one really cared, until he started running ahead into dangerous territory. Everyone else joked IC that how wounded he was when he retreated would tell us how ready we needed to be, but the DM didn't want to go off his plan, so he just said that my brother couldn't go ahead of the party by defaulting to "invisible barrier that blocks you if you are not traveling with the entire party".

Again, I know he's new, but as the most experienced player there I wanna help him with that stuff. However, I don't wanna be a nitpicking jerk, so I figured that I would ask all you guys for your opinions. If I should talk to him about these things, what are some good ways I can go about that? (Re,ember I'm not the most socially aware and the DM can get defensive and argumentative about this stuff.

Also the normal player will be back next session so we don't have to worry about that, buy I'm concerned that the railroading shown while my brother was there could continue to grow.

Finally, sorry for the awful formatting and general ramblyness, I was intending for this to be a short post, but it kinda just kept developing into more and more words.

Narmoth
2017-02-27, 03:54 PM
While I get all this "he's a new dm" I don't really see how I could play with someone that railroading. And I'm not thinking on what your brother was denied. That could actually ruin the atmosphere, and as a DM, I might ask such a player to tune it down or cut it out all together. However, the attitude of
"If didn't plan what you are trying to do, you can't do it. If I don't like it, you can't to it. If it goes off the main storyline, you can't do it." is so bad that I don't think you can find an easy fix

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-27, 05:43 PM
Yeah, I agree that my brother was out of hand, and he eventually cut back on that stuff. It was funny from a player perspective, but as a so,ewhakt expericanced GM I would have made him cut it back. Of course I also would have thrown the entire encounter I had planned down the hallway at him if he went ahead by himself, but I think doing something like that was what the DM was trying to do. It was just that event that made me take a look at past events again. Also I'm the DMs friend, and it would defenitely cause problems if I left, so trying to help him with it seems to be the best option. He just gets really attached to his plans, and if I can convince him to realize that a game is often better if you just use them as guidelines and don't stick to them completely I'll be happy. I gues part of it as well is him being kind of resistant to player plans he hasn't thought about, but I think that will change in time.

DixieDevil
2017-02-27, 10:02 PM
It doesn't sound like your friend's really cut out for DMing. Unless he's willing to completely change the way he's doing things, I would drop out of the game.

icefractal
2017-02-27, 10:41 PM
New DM means you cut him some slack - meaning not just giving him the finger and walking away when he does dumb stuff like this. However, it also doesn't mean you accept a completely BS GMing style that will ensure he never has players for long if he keeps doing it.

Like if someone is learning to cook, you don't shout at them for serving undercooked chicken with burnt to a crisp vegetables - but you don't eat it either.

So explain (politely) about collaboration, the fact that being GM does not mean the players are puppets for his entertainment, and the necessity to be flexible - taking a pause to figure out how something would work is FAR superior to forbidding it. And if he persists in his "kneel before Zod" attitude? Leave the game. Teach him that being a jerk has consequences, because it's a lesson he needs to learn sooner rather than later.

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-28, 09:12 AM
Thanks for the advice, the chef analogy really helps. It seems that most think it's an attitude problem, and I agree with that. I'll defenitely talk to him about that once I get a chance. However if he doesn't change, I will probably have to leave for no other reason then he would have gotten mad at my suggestions. Again, thanks for the help and advice!

Anonymouswizard
2017-02-28, 09:40 AM
First off, let me try to break these each down into a few words a problem (tell me if you dislike the wording).

refusal to abandon plans.
tendency to increase the power/resilience of monsters.
railroading.
poor improvisation.

On 1, yeah I can see why you might want to cut him some slack if it's his first time GMing. I know I had a hard time throwing out encounters and puzzles when I started (now I don't even plan encounters and puzzles, I plan enemies and situations, but I have a slightly strange GMing style), and he'll likely just learn with experience. It's also likely that he's suffering from the 'one lone solution problem', which mazes are particularly bad at if superpowers aren't on the menu, maybe suggest he intentionally makes sure such problems have at least three solutions (the idea being that if an encounter has at least three planned solutions then you're more likely to give other solutions a chance to work, the same idea can work with not planning any solutions and rolling with whatever the players do).

Mazes are annoying by design anyway, I've encountered one and it dissolved into the fact it had to be significant or the GM would run out of content, but I could explore the entire maze in a couple of six second rounds, and so he had traps stop movement.

For 2, this is probably a mixture of being bad at planning encounters and using poor tactics. I have no problem with the PCs showing up and stomping over my planned encounters, because that means they were generally better prepared and used better tactics, but I can see why it might be annoying. It's probably simply because he thinks fights aren't hard enough, suggest he just uses more monsters (or tougher monsters).

For 3, yeah I'll agree it's hard to explain why sometimes this is and isn't an issue. I suspect solving 4 will also solve this.

I think 4 is really the key. The best GMs out there are those with good enough improve skills to roll with whatever the PCs do and use that to build an enjoyable game even when it goes completely off the rails, but it can be hard to develop the required skills. A big part of this is learning to scavenge old session plans when building new sessions and keep those encounters you didn't get to use*, and to just except that occasionally the party doesn't want to go to Rome. Explain to him that going off plan isn't the worst thing, a PC that blunders into an encounter can always retreat and come back with the rest of the group, and that players generally don't like their actions being restricted by 'because I say so'.

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-28, 09:50 AM
Yeah, number two only happened once, but how he just blew me off when I said that you shouldn't do that without looking into it and changing the XP value of the creature made me worry that it could continue. I also think solving 4 will help solve 3, probably 1 as well. Do you know any ways I can explain how adaption is better? I'm thinking of saying something like "when a player says they want to do something, you can either say no and frustrate them, or you can 'ride the lightning' and improvise. It could end well for players, it could end poorly for them, but it will generally be really fun, and as a DM that is your first priority." I'm also gonna say how you can always ask for a ten minute break to quickly put together a plan for something like that if you need to.

hifidelity2
2017-02-28, 10:11 AM
OK so you said he is a good player and you have played with him before – that way you can relate to what DM’s you both like and how they might have handled the situations – this way you are saying – “remember when we did X and DMaster was able to roll with it” and how he solved it

No 1

All (most new) DMs (and I hold my hand up to this) have their pet likes / dislikes and when they have designed the ultimate (Trap / maze / political plot) want to get some mileage for the time and effort they have put in. An experienced DM will have ready extra clues (Most DM’s have beat their head against the proverbial brick wall when the party have miss the “obvious clues”) but a new DM may not have thought of it

You also need to tell him that while he might like mazes the party may not and he needs not to be too precious about it

No 2
So he uses none standard monsters – I have no issues with this if we wants an Orc with 50 HP then it’s a powerful orc – also he might be worried about putting to powerful monsters against you (he will learn – again newish DMs sometimes want to be “popular by making it a bit easy / giving to much treasure etc)

No 3
This is something he will have to learn to handle and that normally only comes from experience – The players can help to some extent in by not going off at wild tangents. Again if you have played together maybe get a DM he likes to explain situations where HE (Your new DM) has gone off on tangents and how the experience DM handled it e.g. the experience DM “I have a number of pre planned encounters for when the party go off on a tangent” etc

Having said that if your brother had started doing what you say (while possibly funny) I would have warned him (an minor ambush) and if he kept on doing it would have run into a powerful monster and got eaten. The ne DM just needs to learn to handle that

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-28, 11:40 AM
For one, there was another situation with the puzzle thing, he thought it was obvious but it took us a solid half hour with a bunch of hints. I really appreciate him making it not all combat, so that particular aspect isn't as big of a deal to me right now, I'm sure it will get worked out over time.

The problem for number two was taking an already monster and giving it a free power that let it regain about a fourth of its health in an encounter, (without adjusting any XP) which is kinda a lot in 4e.

For 3, what I call railroading is also just not allowing any PC creativity beyond what he prepared for. I'll defenitely talk about having extra encounters planned, that will go along with the "ride the lightning" talk in my last post.

The thing at the top about remembering when a past DM improvised is super good as well, thanks for all that!
Also, like I said earlier, it was funny from a player perspective, but I would have done the same as you as a DM. It was just how he said "no you can't" that made me look back and think about all this stuff.

Lord Torath
2017-02-28, 01:05 PM
Regarding the puzzles, direct your DM to the Three Clue Rule (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule). The short version is that you need to plant at least three clues for any conclusion you want the PCs to make.

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-28, 03:36 PM
Thanks, I defenitely will!

Quertus
2017-02-28, 05:58 PM
There really ought to be an "intro to GMing", which explains these Rule of 3 concepts: have at least 3 planned solutions, give at least 3 hints to each.

And it should also include advice to read about games that worked, and games that didn't. Because a lot of these problems would have been pointed out as "things that didn't". Or prevented by adopting a style from "things that did".

I am a bit concerned that you called out, both to us and your GM, a single instance of slightly increasing monster HP. Especially without telling us anything about how the encounter went, why he did it, etc. Consider addressing trends rather than individual instances. Or consider talking to the other players first, and only approaching the GM with issues that everyone agrees detracts from the fun. That way, you don't come of as nitpicking every little thing he does wrong differently from how you do it.

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-28, 06:26 PM
The encounter was a fairly simple "kick-down-the-door-and-kill-the-monsters type encounter. Despite it being maybe a level or two higher we were rolling fairly well. Maybe that's why he upped it, I'm not sure, he didn't say why. However you are right, I do need to be less critical if I want to help. The only issue I have is with talking with the other players, there is one I will probably talk to, but the others present some problems, as one doesn't seem interested in the game at all, one hasn't been to a single game since I joined (he keeps forgetting) and the other is the DM's brother, and those two have fought over really minor stuff turning those things into large arguments every game. I especially am worried about bringing the brother into it as I think that would cause another shouting match, something I defenitely don't want.

I'll probably just stick to the thing about railroading and the attitude, the other stuff (like the one time HP change) is pretty minor, and as I just explained, would cause problems to talk with the other players (Exceptt for one) about to make sure they feel the same way.

Quertus
2017-02-28, 08:05 PM
"doesn't seem interested in the game" and "no show" are actually prime candidates to talk to regarding what could be improved about the game. If, you know, your focus is on helping your friend improve his GM skills.

Not, perhaps, so useful (yet) for directed questions regarding what they think about any particular thing, but, rather, about the game style in general.

Saint Jimmy
2017-02-28, 08:46 PM
Ok, thanks! Although I have literally never spoken to the "no show" before so that could be awkward. I'll defenitely speak with the one that isn't interested though. Again, thanks for the help!