Design the Lonely God-Wizard's Spellbook

[Segev]

The thread on "making magic fun" got me thinking about the differences between theoretical Tier-1 god wizards as we discuss them on the boards and practical-play efforts at them. One of several monkey wrenches that I have found in the god-wizard build in practical play is spell access. It is common to assume that there exists, if nothing else, a means of reliably acquiring a scroll of any spell you might deign to want, provided you have the gp to pay for it. From there, it's trivial to get that spell into your spellbook.

But I've often found that, in practice, finding specific scrolls or finding fellow wizards both with the precise spells you want AND the willingness to sell access to the books containing them long enough to copy them is...not reliable. How reliable it is varies based on the DM and the campaign, but in practice I've found that the only spells you can be CERTAIN you'll get access to are those you get for free when you level up as a wizard. That's 3+int mod 1st level spells at 1st level, and 2 spells of any level you can cast at each wizard level thereafter.

With that in mind, assuming your hypothetical god-wizard build will NEVER get access to any spells from any other wizardly source (maybe he's literally the only wizard in the setting, and none before him have left their works behind for him to study), what would the optimal god-wizard's spellbook contain? With only 41+(1st level character int mod) spells in his book, and no more than 4 spells of any level beyond first (unless he sacrifices higher-level spells for lower-level ones later in his career), what would his optimal spellbook look like?

Edit: I forgot to mention: I was envisioning this exercise as being for a 1-20 playable wizard. So assume you're actually playing each level, and thus what order you get the spells in will matter insofar as what spells you can access at each level.

As is mentioned in the very next post, a 20th level wizard could just wish for a fully-stocked spellbook, most likely.

Edit 2: Additionally, while more ways to add spells are fine, please try to stick to reasonable interpretations of the rules. RAI may be impossible to determine, but unless the infinite loop is pretty clearly intended, let's avoid those. The idea here is to build it in such a way that a DM who is innocently but frustratingly limiting a wizard's ability to arbitrarily add to his spellbook might permit. Not necessarily a DM who is out to keep him from getting spells, but one who is definitely not cooperating nor making it easy.

[Karl Aegis]

If you're level 20 you can just Wish for a spellbook with every spell in it. I assume you meant a spellbook before this stage in the game?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, that's when Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard start to look real appealing. ~14 spells known/spell level is a heck of a lot better than ~4. And when you start asking about spell research rules.

(But to stick to the spirit of the thing, "pretty much just like a sorcerer's.")

[Segev]

If you're level 20 you can just Wish for a spellbook with every spell in it. I assume you meant a spellbook before this stage in the game?Yes; thank you for calling attention to that.

The exercise as I envisioned it was "starting at level 1, and adding spells as you play through every level." I will edit the OP to say so.


Well, that's when Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard start to look real appealing. ~14 spells known/spell level is a heck of a lot better than ~4. And when you start asking about spell research rules.Ah, yes, spell research. Opens it up a little bit; still need time and money, but at least you don't need the DM to agree that the spell is right there where you want to buy access.


(But to stick to the spirit of the thing, "pretty much just like a sorcerer's.")Probably. The wizard, sans things which increase their "free" spells-at-level-up, is only 3+int mod spells known ahead of the sorcerer. He might, if he takes the highest level spells possible, have 1 more spell of each of 6th-9th level, and will actually know fewer 1st-3rd level spells than the sorcerer. Yuck.

[Zaq]

Well, that's when Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard start to look real appealing. ~14 spells known/spell level is a heck of a lot better than ~4. And when you start asking about spell research rules.

(But to stick to the spirit of the thing, "pretty much just like a sorcerer's.")

How are you getting 14 spells known out of that? After first level, Collegiate Wizard gives you 4 new spells at level up, and Elven Generalist gives you another 1 new spell. So 5 new spells per Wizard level after level 1, meaning about 10 spells known for the majority of your spell levels (since most spell levels have 2 class levels associated with them). What am I missing?

Are you saying that Collegiate Wizard's 4 spells are added to the base Wizard's 2 spells, for a total of 6 (plus one from Elven Generalist to a total of 7)? That seems to be at odds with the fact that the feat includes a "Normal" line (which usually indicates that the feat's benefit replaces the normal effect, insofar as that makes sense). I suppose an argument could be made that way, but I have to be honest, that seems like you're standing on shaky ground for RAW. Or am I misinterpreting you?

[Gusmo]

What's the earliest level you can get away with looping the extra spell feat (Complete Arcane) over and over? That's my preferred way of getting all of the spells, because it doesn't leave room for the 'DM can screw you' language that wish has. The result of the feat is that the spell is physically in your spellbook, so any time you gain it temporarily, you gain its benefit permanently.

[Segev]

What's the earliest level you can get away with looping the extra spell feat (Complete Arcane) over and over? That's my preferred way of getting all of the spells, because it doesn't leave room for the 'DM can screw you' language that wish has. The result of the feat is that the spell is physically in your spellbook, so any time you gain it temporarily, you gain its benefit permanently.

While clever, I fear this falls in the "the DM is going to look askance at this" territory. At least one potential reading of the RAW interactions would cause you to lose the spells from your spellbook just as mysteriously as they appeared when you lost the feat. Another would say that you've got the bonus spells already even when you get it back, because you still have them from when you had it before.

It's shaky ground, and the purpose of this exercise is to come up with a selection that wouldn't get stopped by a DM going "no shenanigans." (I mean, sure, a DM could call 'shenanigans' on the free spells at each level, but at that point he's doing it on purpose, not just trying to be what most DMs might think is reasonable.)

Sorry if I'm raining on parades here with arbitrary "no, a DM wouldn't allow this" additions. But...I think I'm being somewhat consistent in the fuzzy line I'm drawing? Please let me know if I'm not.

[Zanos]

I think it would be cleaner if you outlined the exercise as the wizard only having levelup spells no matter what clever tricks you come up with to get more, unless you're just looking for clever tricks to get more spells known. Because there are a vast number of tricks for wizards to get more spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Probably. The wizard, sans things which increase their "free" spells-at-level-up, is only 3+int mod spells known ahead of the sorcerer. He might, if he takes the highest level spells possible, have 1 more spell of each of 6th-9th level, and will actually know fewer 1st-3rd level spells than the sorcerer. Yuck.
Though not that it takes the Sorcerer six levels to get their 4 spells known/spell level, while you get all of yours in two, just in time to unlock your next spell level. For the period when it really matters, you effectively have twice the spells known.


Are you saying that Collegiate Wizard's 4 spells are added to the base Wizard's 2 spells, for a total of 6 (plus one from Elven Generalist to a total of 7)? That seems to be at odds with the fact that the feat includes a "Normal" line (which usually indicates that the feat's benefit replaces the normal effect, insofar as that makes sense). I suppose an argument could be made that way, but I have to be honest, that seems like you're standing on shaky ground for RAW. Or am I misinterpreting you?
No, that's pretty much how I read it. The "normal" line makes the RAI ground decently shaky, I suppose, but the RAW seems clear-- when you level up, add four spells to your list without research. No "instead of the normal two," or any other wording to suggest it replaces the normal two. Even with a less lenient DM, it's certainly worth it in this situation.

[Segev]

I think it would be cleaner if you outlined the exercise as the wizard only having levelup spells no matter what clever tricks you come up with to get more, unless you're just looking for clever tricks to get more spells known. Because there are a vast number of tricks for wizards to get more spells.

That's fair. I think it's more of a question of whether the same DM who is not cooperating with letting you find arbitrary spells to pay for would likely allow it. Feat gain/loss loops are the sort of thing I wouldn't expect to fly, for the same reason that the DM isn't agreeing that arbitrary spells are available in the city for purchase. Sticking to clear RAI where possible may be the best bet. As fuzzy as that admittedly gets.

The idea here, while this is a theory-crafting thread, is to theory craft more on the "safe" side of P.O.

[remetagross]

So the rules are: if you had exactly three + Int mod 1st level spells, four 2-to-8 level spells, and eight 9 level spells (given that you gain two of them at each level from 17 to 20), and not a single more than that, which ones would you pick, level by level?

[Gusmo]

I would say elven generalist with collegiate wizard is plenty, in realistic circumstances. It's in the treasure guidelines that wizards are supposed to come upon spells for their spellbook. The spells you come upon aren't necessarily going to be the best, but combine that with 5 spells/level to fill in gaps, and you're not even close to being in danger of falling out of tier 1.

[Karl Aegis]

To be clear: We aren't having fixed list casters make a Use Magic Device check to emulate a class feature: Has this spell on their spell list to add to their spells known to assist in scribing scrolls for the wizard to add to their spell book, right?

[Uncle Pine]

Isn't this the whole raison d'être of the Easy Bake Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325933-Easy-Bake-Wizard-Handbook)? Not having to be excessively pricky during spell selection in campaigns where access to scrolls with new spells was inversely proportional to the amount of times the DM tried to steal your spellbook? With the specific caveat that the latter was exceedingly common?

[Segev]

It always amazes me how many rules threads like this develop, and I do apologize for being one of those guys who's doing it that way.

I'm not sure why you'd need "emulate class feature" if you're a fixed-list caster, though.

By all means, if other PCs in the party can scribe scrolls for you, that's fine and dandy.

...though thinking twice about it, let's start at the more restrictive end, since the purpose here is to see how well we can cover the "god wizard's" necessities with limited resources. Collegiate Wizard and even feats to add more spells are fine, but if you're relying on gp or any sort of looping or loophole, it probably isn't.

But let's see just how small the list can get away with being, too. So, bonus points for the smallest list, but if you need to expand it with feats or ACFs, that's fine, too. But please, no "buy it with gp" solutions unless we absolutely need them.

Edit: Disclaimer: There are no actual points being assigned, and if there were, they'd just be made up and they wouldn't matter.

[Gusmo]

Speaking of real situations, if there's more than one wizard in a party, then they can simply master one another's spellbooks, and create one pool of spells known. Two elven generalists with collegiate wizard would functionally get 10 spells/level in this manner. If you had an all wizard party this gets even crazier needless to say, but if I were to make an all caster party, I'd probably prefer a couple wizards with a cleric and druid or something along those lines.

[Karl Aegis]

Okay this list is terrible:

Sleep, Protection from Chaos, Ray of Enfeeblement, Disguise Self, Enlarge Person, Shocking Grasp, Endure Elements, Unseen Servant
Grease, Summon Monster I
Glitterdust, Web
False Life, Rope Trick
Haste, Ray of Exhaustion
Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Circle against Evil
Black Tentacles, Solid Fog
Polymorph, Greater Invisibility
Wall of Stone, Shadow Evocation
Mirage Arcana, Overland Flight
Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate
Planar Binding, Dimensional Anchor
Waves of Exhaustion, Greater Teleport
Plane Shift, Simulacrum
Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank
Greater Planar Binding, Greater Prying Eyes
Gate, Shapechange
Teleportation Circle, Time Stop
True Seeing, Wish
Mage's Disjuction, Force Cage

I wish I had enough room for Undead Mastery and Create Greater Undead for a Devourer that lasts for 20 days, but I didn't include feats, just the spell book.

This would be easier if I was just making a Lord of the Uttercold Assault Necromancer.

[Gusmo]

Shapechange should be one of your first 9th level spells. It gives you astral projection for free (shapechange into a nightmare), so minimally you can take out astral projection and replace it with shapechange.

[Karl Aegis]

Oh yeah. I forgot about Shapechange. Moved Teleportation Circle down and kicked out astral projection. Could just make simulacrums of nightmares, anyways.

[remetagross]

Interesting, you're taking only 3 second-level spells and Glitterdust instead of the 4th one. No Alter Self instead? (or Polymorph as one of the 4th leveld, for that matter)

[dhasenan]

Soskre, Lonely God-Wizard's Spellbook

Animated Object (Sorcerer 3 / Archivist 5 / Cleric 5)

Neia Nelutalð, the God-Wizard, animated a Blessed Spellbook as an exercise in divinity upon gaining Divine Rank 0, in a process similar to the Avatar salient divine ability (with a lot of inspiration from Animate Object, Awaken, and Ice Assassin). Soskre has a soul and can be returned to life using the standard spells (Resurrection, Reincarnate, etc). Its sentience continues even in an antimagic field.

Soskre's magical nature allowed it to cast magic naturally, from the heart (or binding, rather). However, it was not content with its relative lack of understanding of the mechanics of magic. Since its master was a deity, it decided to research divine magic as an archivist -- approaching the same topics from another perspective, which allowed it to have deep and productive conversations with Neia. It did annoy her that Soskre erased some of the spells she had inscribed into it in order to record prayers and research notes, though.

The book was the first of a set of works that brought the attention of Boccob. After some years, Boccob took Neia under his tutelage, and she gained Divine Rank 2. At this point, Soskre became her first Cleric.

It says that having access to magic in three different ways gives it a much deeper insight into how magic works, which is more valuable to Neia in many ways than having a more powerful companion.

Neia is relatively reclusive, and Soskre doesn't have much companionship besides its master. It is a unique artifact. It's prone to bouts of morbidness and melancholy because of its lack of peers and spends its free time trying to replicate its own crafting. However, Soskre's soul is a fragment of Neia's, too weak on its own to support another ensouled object, and Neia theorizes that she will be unable to support a second ensouled object for several more Divine Ranks.

[Karl Aegis]

Honestly, I thought Summon Monster IV was the one that summoned unicorns. Changed it out for Polymorph.