Is Arcane magic just stronger than Divine magic?

[tedcahill2]

If I look at the wizard and sorcerer I see two different arcane classes with the worst base attack, worst hit die, and only one good save.

The cleric and druid on the other hand, get better base attack, better proficiencies, better hit dice, the druid gets a slew of other abilities, and they both have full spell progression.

This leads me to ask the question: are arcane spells just stronger than divine spells at their core?

For comparison, ff you made a sorcerer class that learned spells off the cleric list, without changing anything else about the class, would it be terribly under powered?

[Eldariel]

First of all, HD, BAB and things of that nature don't really matter all that much in the long run. Spells can make up the difference. But yes, for most purposes arcane magic is generally stronger than divine magic; for instance, the battlefield control and utility options arcane magic offers are generally available later or not at all to divine magic. However, divine magic is significantly better at removing debuffs and has some domains of its own, such as planar travel or various ward-type effects, and divine casters have partial access to arcane lists through various means. Still, e.g. in Core 3.5, most of the really, really powerful spell (short of Miracle) are Arcane. Out of Core, divine casting actually gets significantly better at various tasks, but Arcane magic still generally has certain key advantages.

Looking at Core 3.5 for instance, arcanists have access to:
Teleport-line
Contact Other Plane
Planar Binding-line
Simulacrum
Polymorph-line
Contingency
The 9s: Time Stop/Shapechange/Disjunction/Gate/Foresight (and there's always Wish)

Clerics, by comparison (Druids would require a separate analysis):
Plane Shift (but arcanes have access, just later)
Commune
Planar Ally-line (but Planar Binding is significantly better due to lacking costs)
Animate Dead (but arcanists get it just one level later - however, only Clerics have direct access to Desecrate)
The 9s: Miracle/Gate


These are some of the most game-changing effects. Clerics can of course augment their list via. Domains. E.g. Teleportation is on Travel-domain while Shapechange is on Animal-domain and Polymorph Any Object is on Trickery-domain. Even then, the arcanist list has more of these tools available, and the incredible tools that are solely arcane are generally more impactful (Grease/Color Spray/Enlarge Person/Web/Glitterdust/Pyrotechnics/Stinking Cloud/Slow vs. Command/Cause Fear/Silence/Shatter over the first 3 levels). And of course, if we start doing a more detailed analysis of the combat/utility-spells, Arcanists again have more of the good options though Clerics are no slouches.

So in short, Clerics have stuff like Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, Heal, Heroes' Feast, Magic Vestment, etc. while Arcanist lists are largely more offensive, but still packing things like Polymorph, Enlarge Person and company for buffing purposes. Generally it's nice to have access to both; Clerics have an easier time being melee combatant/caster combinations though while Arcanists are more natural played as full casters (though you can play a melee Arcanist as well; it just takes more effort).

[Zanos]

There is nothing inherently more powerful in magic being arcane or divine. Divine actually has advantages in a lot of respects. It typically has fewer material components, divine casters generally automatically know their entire list, and of course they don't have to worry about arcane spell failure.

The arcane spell lists, though, are generally stronger. A lot of great divine spells are locked behind domains, and the list got loaded with a lot of reactive magic to remove effects or cure hit points damage, which was a little bit overvalued.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The posts above are spot on. As a quick note: wizards do not have a weaker chassis than clerics because wizards have stronger casting than clerics. The designers did not always work with an accurate idea of the relative power of their designs, and it's unlikely they thought about it that way. There is, however, a fluff reason why wizards have a weaker chassis than clerics. Clerics are front-line heavy armour-wearing mace-swinging juggernauts, and wizards are standing-at-the-back-dressed-stupidly-and-looking-stupid robe-wearing jazzhanders. Also, nobody likes a flimsy healbot.

[Gusmo]

I'm unclear as to whether we're talking about just class spell lists, all arcane versus all divine, or classes with their lists and other class features and a whole. I will say that the strongest spell list probably belongs to archivists.

[Zanos]

I'm unclear as to whether we're talking about just class spell lists, all arcane versus all divine, or classes with their lists and other class features and a whole. I will say that the strongest spell list probably belongs to archivists.
The archivist has the best selection of spells, but their list is actually built from a ton of other lists. And I don't think there's a comparable class that casts all arcane spells.

[Gullintanni]

The 9s: Miracle/Gate



Emphasis added. Miracle doesn't get enough credit I find. People talk about Wish like it's top dog, but Miracle is far more versatile, and has the potential to be far more powerful.

Miracle doesn't have partial fulfilment language, and the only limit on its ability is whether or not the petitioner's request is within the scope of the Deity's portfolio.

In terms of guidelines for use, Miracle includes the following descriptions of exceptionally powerful requests:

- Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.

- Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.

- Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.

Assuming worship of the correct deity, it would also be well within the scope of the spell to produce the inverse to all three of those effects. Worshippers of Surt, the fire giant, would be within scope to ask for a city to be consumed by flash fires, whereas Nerull could swing the tide of battle simply by eliminating all foes on the battlefield.

Similarly, if you want Magic Items, worship Garl Glittergold, or Moradin, and the creation gods will provide. Given that the spell has no prescriptive language about the cost of a requested magic item, Epic magic items are very arguably within scope.

The worst a DM can do is refuse to fulfil a Miracle, but as long as the request falls under the deities portfolio, it's arguable that the RAW (Rule 0 notwithstanding) affords to Clerics a true, non-negotiable "I Win" button.

...that said, at every spell level other than 9, and at any time when you don't feel like spending 5,000 xp on a spell, Wizards come out on top in most categories.

[johnbragg]

Short answer, yes. The arcane spell list (both core and core-plus-splats) are stronger than the divine spell lists. A hypothetical Divine Magic-user class (wizard chassis with prepared access to the cleric spell list) would be a low Tier One.

But they'd still be tier one.

[Quertus]

No, no - quicker, easier, seductive.

Always wanted to use that line :smallwink:

[ryu]

If you're thinking about what to play we can link you some handbooks. No one handbook, besides eggynacks for druids, is likely to teach you all of the things you want to know to play a class to potential. They WILL give you a decent suite of starting information, and a good mindset for what is and isn't powerful.

[Dagroth]

Even when you're just talking combat...

Arcanists have more SoD/SoS spells. Arcanists have more spells that ignore SR. Arcanists's spells almost always have better range, better area and better damage.

[GilesTheCleric]

It depends on the setting. Divine magic is (often) allowed at the whim of the gods, while arcane magic may not be. In a setting where your deity can take away your magic (or your deity can lose their divine ranks), you want the kind of magic that can't be taken away. Or in the case of the transition to fourth edition, something similar to magic but that isn't actually magic.

[Gullintanni]

Short answer, yes. The arcane spell list (both core and core-plus-splats) are stronger than the divine spell lists. A hypothetical Divine Magic-user class (wizard chassis with prepared access to the cleric spell list) would be a low Tier One.

But they'd still be tier one.

I'm not sure they'd be low Tier 1 at all. Cloistered Clerics are basically Divine Wizards, and there's nothing "Low" about their Tier 1 status.

[ryu]

I'm not sure they'd be low Tier 1 at all. Cloistered Clerics are basically Divine Wizards, and there's nothing "Low" about their Tier 1 status.

Maybe he meant without domains? That list would end up weaker than the druid one without domains.

[Dagroth]

I'm not sure they'd be low Tier 1 at all. Cloistered Clerics are basically Divine Wizards, and there's nothing "Low" about their Tier 1 status.

Naw. Archivists are basically Divine Wizards... and they're, like, Tier 0.5

[Venger]

The archivist has the best selection of spells, but their list is actually built from a ton of other lists. And I don't think there's a comparable class that casts all arcane spells.

chameleon or spell to power erudite.

[Necroticplague]

No. There's nothing intrinsic to Divine Magic that makes it weaker than Arcane Magic. In fact, the fact that Divine Spells aren't effected by ASF makes it intrinsically stronger than Arcane Magic. The only problem is the spell lists of Clerics and Druids in specific. Archivists blow Wizards out of the water.

EDIT: dangit, other people started mentioning all the points I made. A lesson in why you don't start and finish a post when dinner occurs in between those two.

[Gullintanni]

Naw. Archivists are basically Divine Wizards... and they're, like, Tier 0.5

Yeah but that's because they get the best spells from everybody's lists. :smalltongue:

[Mato]

Yeah but that's because they get the best spells from everybody's lists. :smalltongue:Is this a GitP thing? Like some kind of inside joke I don't know about?

Because archivists are limited to divine spells. If you're argument is millions of Hathrans have created the biggest library of divine spells ever you're about ten thousand steps away from what the rainbow servant already does for beguilers, dread necromancers, and warmages, or what shadow miracles from a shadowcraft mages can do, or how the dragonsblood spellpact creates an open spell market for divine-accessing true dragons, favored souls, sorcerers, divine bards, and normal bards. Saying an archivist can compete with those is like saying a lemonade stand can pay off America's debt.

[Zanos]

Is this a GitP thing? Like some kind of inside joke I don't know about?

Because archivists are limited to divine spells. If you're argument is millions of Hathrans have created the biggest library of divine spells ever you're about ten thousand steps away from what the rainbow servant already does for beguilers, dread necromancers, and warmages, or what shadow miracles from a shadowcraft mages can do, or how the dragonsblood spellpact creates an open spell market for divine-accessing true dragons, favored souls, sorcerers, divine bards, and normal bards. Saying an archivist can compete with those is like saying a lemonade stand can pay off America's debt.

Even without conversion shenanigans or prestige class lists archivists have access to cleric, cleric domains, paladin, ranger, and druid spell lists. From core classes, anyway.

There's also a lot of ways to convert arcane spells to divine. Off the top of my head i know of three prestige classes and two feats that will do it.

[Fizban]

The question implies aggressive solutions to problems via magic alone, which is inherently slanted towards the arcane spell lists. If you want to kill all the guys in this room, then sure a Fireball is better. If you need to keep someone from dying this round, Cure Critical is significantly more useful. If you want to bypass a wall in one jump, Dimension Door is superior. If you want to keep someone from dying instantly to a vampire, Death Ward is superior. That's basically the idea.

[Necroticplague]

Is this a GitP thing? Like some kind of inside joke I don't know about?

Because archivists are limited to divine spells. If you're argument is millions of Hathrans have created the biggest library of divine spells ever you're about ten thousand steps away from what the rainbow servant already does for beguilers, dread necromancers, and warmages, or what shadow miracles from a shadowcraft mages can do, or how the dragonsblood spellpact creates an open spell market for divine-accessing true dragons, favored souls, sorcerers, divine bards, and normal bards. Saying an archivist can compete with those is like saying a lemonade stand can pay off America's debt.
1. Thanks to Southern Magician, all spells can be divine spells.
2.Even without that, cooperative crafting can produce divine scrolls of any spell (arcane caster provides spells, while divine caster provides rest, creator is divine caster, so ensuing scroll is divine).

Thus, the archivist 'spell list' includes all spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

1. Thanks to Southern Magician, all spells can be divine spells.
2.Even without that, cooperative crafting can produce divine scrolls of any spell (arcane caster provides spells, while divine caster provides rest, creator is divine caster, so ensuing scroll is divine).

Thus, the archivist 'spell list' includes all spells.
Thanks to Chameleon Crafting, it also contains all psionic powers! All hail the power of the artificer!

[ben-zayb]

Meanwhile, the Psion is laughing alongside his StP Erudite Thrall.

Although I'll say, no, those whose points include trying to get a divine list to the arcane side (and vice versa) to justify that it's better is really missing the point, considering all spells can arguably be in both sides with enough optimization anyway. From there, you're left with ASF, different foci, and different components as the main differences

[TotallyNotEvil]

I feel Arcane magic has a very neat, very direct approach to any given effect you might want, when with the Divine one it's usually a little more awkward when it's not about buffs.

A Wizard may act as a cleric (spell-wise, not Zilla), but a cleric has a hard time fulfilling the expectations one has about a wizard.

Not that it's weak, far from it. I do find that divine magic has a ton of niche, but unique spells that Arcane doesn't, besides being generally very, very good at whatever it proposes to do.