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StickMan
2007-07-24, 10:15 AM
If you have a monk who has the Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks belt do the effects stack causing you to deal damage as if you were 9 levels higher?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-24, 10:24 AM
Yes. Two different sources granting an unnamed bonus.

Xan
2007-07-24, 10:26 AM
What book is the Superiour Unarmed Strike in?

Neon Knight
2007-07-24, 10:27 AM
Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-24, 12:03 PM
Wasn't there a different ruling based on that both effects state "As a monk X levels higher"?

Jasdoif
2007-07-24, 12:25 PM
Wasn't there a different ruling based on that both effects state "As a monk X levels higher"?That's my interpretation of it, yes. Both effects say something along the lines of "as a monk of X levels higher" (I can't check ToB here for the exact wording of Superior Unarmed Strike). The way they're worded, they're both based on your monk level without providing an actual bonus to your effective monk level, so they do not stack.

If, say, monk's belt said "Your effective monk level is 5 levels higher for the purpose of unarmed damage and unarmored AC", it would be different.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-24, 12:38 PM
Here are the relevant descriptions:


If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher


The wearer’s ... unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

Ramza00
2007-07-24, 01:06 PM
They stack for they aren't a bonus, instead it is an additional. Bonuses don't stack, additionals do (such as sneak attack or arcane strike)

Person_Man
2007-07-24, 01:07 PM
FYI, there's a PrC in the Complete Champion called the Fist of the Forest that grants 2 steps (not levels, steps, so 1d6 unarmed damage becomes 1d10) up the Monk unarmed damage chart in only 3 levels, along with other nifty benefits. And its written in such a way that it stack with virtually anything (so if your unarmed damage is already 2d6, it then becomes 2d10).

So with a Monks Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and 3 levels of this FotF, your unarmed damage of a medium creature is 2d8. With Improved Natural Attack feat, it becomes 3d8. If you can find ways to make it continue stacking upwards then it continues to scale upwards to 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, and 12d8. Like the King of Smack, except with Unarmed Strikes instead of Claws.

Maybe a Shifter Swordsage 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshaper 1/whatever X? Two feats and one magic item for 6d8 unarmed damage at ECL 8 isn't bad. It'd be great with my auto-grapple kill build, if you could somehow find the feats for Knifefighter and Scorpion's Grap. Sadly, Knifefighter is Forgotten Realms specific.

Ramza00
2007-07-24, 01:25 PM
1 lvl of Totemist for the totem avatar bind where you your natural attacks are treated as they are 1 size larger.

One of my favorite spells, greater mighty wallop will also do a damage boost.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-24, 01:26 PM
1 lvl of Totemist for the totem avatar bind where you your natural attacks are treated as they are 1 size larger.

One of my favorite spells, greater mighty wallop will also do a damage boost.

You need two levels if you're binding. Totemists don't gain the ability to bind until level 2, though they can shape prior.

X15lm204
2007-07-24, 01:50 PM
Alright, related question. I have a Fighter 8 with the Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Improved Natural Attack feats (for a base unarmed damage of 2d6) who might get a Monk's Belt at her next major windfall. Assuming that she obtains it before gaining another level, would she be treated as a Monk 9 for a (now static) base damage of 2d8? would the Belt move her five levels up the SUS table (still 2d8 but able to increase at 11)? something else entirely?

Arbitrarity
2007-07-24, 01:53 PM
I'm not sure that would have an effect. The monk's belt says you gain damage and AC boost of a 5'th level monk. SUS says you treat your unarmed strike as a monk of four levels higher, IF you have monk levels.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-24, 02:58 PM
As Arbitrarity and Jasdoif have pointed out, both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together. But there's a way to get lots of unarmed damage with a couple of items, a whopping skill check, and no feats or actual Monk levels.

You need a Monk's Belt and also a Fanged Ring, which (among other things) grants the feats
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
This is a decent combination already, as you'd do 2d6 unarmed damage (if medium size) -- no feats or Monk levels required.

The kicker is adding a DC40 Use Magic Device check to Emulate a Specific Individual when activating an item. This skill use rule was introduced in a Dragon magazine adventure. If you can make the check and know a medium Monk of level 15+, the improved activation of these two items will give you 4d8 unarmed damage: that of a large Monk of level 20+.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-24, 03:04 PM
So questionable interpretations are out, but Dragon Magazine is in? That combination doesn't even make any sense! You can't "Activate" that ring, it's a continuous effect!

Hur hur hur, I activate the monk's belt like I was a 15'th level monk, giving me 2d10 unarmed damage and wis+4 AC!

No.

Ramza00
2007-07-25, 03:43 PM
You need two levels if you're binding. Totemists don't gain the ability to bind until level 2, though they can shape prior.

Yeah you are right, didn't have my books on me and am doing it from memory.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-25, 10:38 PM
So questionable interpretations are out, but Dragon Magazine is in? That's WotC's position. Dragon is "100% Official D&D".

Hur hur hur, I activate the monk's belt like I was a 15'th level monk, giving me 2d10 unarmed damage and wis+4 AC! Yes, that's it exactly. Remember that you can't take 10 on Use Magic Device, and the DC is 40. Also if you roll a 1 and fail you can't try to activate the item again for 24 hours.

Aximili
2007-07-26, 11:44 AM
Yes, that's it exactly. Remember that you can't take 10 on Use Magic Device, and the DC is 40. Also if you roll a 1 and fail you can't try to activate the item again for 24 hours.

But you can't activate continuous items at all.
You put them on and they are working (though some take 24h to start working).
They are not use-activated, nor Comand-word-activated. They're continuous.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-26, 11:48 AM
Which is the ONE part of my post he didn't quote.

Person_Man
2007-07-26, 01:27 PM
Alright, related question. I have a Fighter 8 with the Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Improved Natural Attack feats (for a base unarmed damage of 2d6) who might get a Monk's Belt at her next major windfall. Assuming that she obtains it before gaining another level, would she be treated as a Monk 9 for a (now static) base damage of 2d8? would the Belt move her five levels up the SUS table (still 2d8 but able to increase at 11)? something else entirely?

Monk's Belt:



The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

Superior Unarmed Strike


You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes, as shown on the table below... If you are a monk, you instead deal damage as a monk four levels higher.

So unless you "are a monk" (or a variant Swordsage, with your DM's approval) I would probably say no. Even a Swordsage might not slip by and I'd have to change the build I posted above, since they are technically not "a monk" but rather use the Monk's unarmed damage progression. It's a tough DM call. For balance reasons, I'd probably just give it to you, since you're giving up so much damage from forgoing two handed Power Attack.

Darrin
2007-07-26, 03:10 PM
So unless you "are a monk" (or a variant Swordsage, with your DM's approval) I would probably say no. Even a Swordsage might not slip by and I'd have to change the build I posted above, since they are technically not "a monk" but rather use the Monk's unarmed damage progression. It's a tough DM call. For balance reasons, I'd probably just give it to you, since you're giving up so much damage from forgoing two handed Power Attack.

HordeCommander5: I'm not sure you can use Improved Natural Attack for a non-monk Unarmed Strike. I thought treating unarmed strikes as natural attacks was a special feature of the monk class, and not something granted by Improved Unarmed Strike.

Person_Man, how would Fist of the Forest work with a non-monk + Superior Unarmed Strike? Would FotF bump up the Superior Armed Strike damage up one/two steps? Would it continue to bump up the damage above what was listed on the Superior Unarmed Strike table, or does the table effectively "end" at character level 20?

Person_Man
2007-07-26, 03:38 PM
HordeCommander5: I'm not sure you can use Improved Natural Attack for a non-monk Unarmed Strike. I thought treating unarmed strikes as natural attacks was a special feature of the monk class, and not something granted by Improved Unarmed Strike.

Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks. Thus, any player can take Improved Natural Attack to increase his size as it pertains to calculating unarmed damage, including a Monk. It's specifically referenced in the official FAQ.




Person_Man, how would Fist of the Forest work with a non-monk + Superior Unarmed Strike? Would FotF bump up the Superior Armed Strike damage up one/two steps? Would it continue to bump up the damage above what was listed on the Superior Unarmed Strike table, or does the table effectively "end" at character level 20?

FotF is written in such a way that it stacks with virtually anything. Your unarmed damage becomes 1d8 after one level of FotF, and 1d10 after 3 levels of FotF. "If your unarmed damage already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the Monk table." So virtually any build gets 2 damage bumps from just 3 levels of FotF.

After 20th level Monk damage were achieved, it would theoretically "end" since there is no step above 2d10 indicated on the Monk table. Which means that optimally you want to get 2d6 damage however you can, (including 12 Monk or Swordsage or PrC, and/or virtual Monk levels through items/feats) which would put your damage at 2d6. Follow that with 3 levels of FotF for 2d10 damage. Follow that with SIZE increases from Expansion and/or Warshaper and/or Improved Natural Attack. It should be quite easy to get to 12d8 unarmed damage by mid levels.


Here's a list of ways to increase unarmed damage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=662842), FYI.


Initiate of Draconic Mysteries: 2 Die Step (Draconomicon, pg 131)
Mighty Whallop, Greater (CL20): 5 Size Step (Races of Dragon, pg 115)
Improved Natural Attack: 1 Size Step (Monster Manual)
Warshaper, Morphic Weapons: 1 Size Step (Complete Warrior, pg 90)
Righteous Might, perm'd: 1 Size Step (PHB)
Ectoplasmic Fist: 1 Size Step (ECS, pg 264)
Empty Hand Mastery(OA): 1 Size Step (OA, pg 80)
Monk's Belt: increases effective monk lvl by 5 (DMG)
Monk's Tattoo: increases effective monk lvl by 4 (Magic of Faerun, pg 163)
Gauntlets of the Talon: increases effective monk lvl by 5 (Complete Divine, pg 97)
Superior Unarmed Strike: increases effective monk lvl by 4 (Tome of Battle, pg 33)

There's also this table from another thread:

Monk levels increases:
Monk's Belt (Dungeon Master's Guide): +5 levels; 12,000 gp
Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun): +4 levels; 80,000 gp
Gloves of the Talon (Complete Divine; requires True Believer feat): +5 levels; 20,000 gp
Two levels of the Swift Scion PrC (Unearthed Arcana): +4 levels
Total levels available: 18

Size increases:
Fanged Ring (Dragon #308); 10,000 gp
One level of Warshaper (Complete Warrior; must be able to change shape)
Improved Natural Attack feat (Eberron/Savage Species/Monster Manual; requires BAB +4)
Battlefist (Eberron; requires at least one level in monk for size increase); 2,600 gp
Ectoplasmic Fist Shard (Eberron); 4,000 gp
Expansion (Expanded Psionics Handbook; 1st-level psychic warrior power) - may be manifested twice: first time costs one point; second time costs an additional six points
Metamorphosis (Expanded Psionics Handbook) - 4th-level Egoist power
Empty Hand Mastery (Oriental Adventures; requires Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Eagle Claw Attack and Fists of Iron feats)
Sharptooth (Draconomicon; 4th-level sorcerer/4th-level wizard spell)
Earth Hammer (Races of Stone; 5th-level cleric/3rd-level paladin spell)
Stone Fist (Races of Stone; 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level paladin spell) - damage increases according to size (given on table); not a true concrete size increase
Totem Avatar, soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum), chakra bind (shoulders)
Total size increases available: 12/13

Die increases:
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon) 4 (requires Alertness, Improved Unarmed Strike and Power Attack feats)
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296) 4 (requires Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will and Stunning Fist feats)
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296) 8
Total die increases: 4

Quietus
2007-07-26, 04:07 PM
Why does this thread want me to supply a password?

Fax Celestis
2007-07-26, 04:08 PM
Why does this thread want me to supply a password?

It's someone's avatar. It's hosted on a locked server.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-26, 04:12 PM
HordeCommander5 to be exact.


Edit:
Let us hope it is resolved soon. :smallsmile:

Fax Celestis
2007-07-26, 04:16 PM
Judging by the way the single post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2929915&postcount=12) acts, I'd say HordeCommander5.

the_tick_rules
2007-07-26, 11:56 PM
someone should ask the wizards people this question, if they haven't already.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-27, 12:16 AM
Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks. Thus, any player can take Improved Natural Attack to increase his size as it pertains to calculating unarmed damage, including a Monk. It's specifically referenced in the official FAQ.

Natural attacks and unarmed strikes aren't actually the same thing. It in some cases it is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural attack, and in some cases it's treated as neither.


Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weaponry

Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. Nor is a natural weapon a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

As we saw in Part One, unarmed strikes allow iterative attacks and natural weapons do not.

A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon.

Remember, however, that magic weapon enhancements that work with natural weaponry, such as the 'magic fang' spell, also work with unarmed attacks. This rule allows pugilists and martial artists access to some magic weapon enhancements (also see the next section). It also reflects the fact that a creature making an unarmed strike is using part of its body in the attack.

Monk Unarmed Strike Class Feature

The monk class offers a potent subcategory of unarmed attack. The class provides Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, but the monk class offers some additional benefits for when fighting without weapons:

A monk's unarmed strikes can be treated as either manufactured or natural weapons when applying spells or effects that enhance either manufactured or natural weapons. For example, either a magic weapon spell or a magic fang spell can enhance a monk's unarmed attacks.

This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.

A monk can make unarmed strikes with either hand interchangeably or with a knee, elbow, or foot.

A monk does not suffer an off-hand penalty when attacking unarmed. That is, the monk does not take any attack penalty and gains her full Strength bonus to damage (if any) no matter which appendage the monk uses to make the unarmed attack.

This rule doesn't exempt monks from two-weapon combat penalties (see below).


A monk's unarmed strike damage increases with levels in the class.

A monk uses the unarmed strike damage entry for her monk level on Table 3-10 in the Player's Handbook (or on Table 3-11 for a Small or Large monk) instead of the normal unarmed strike damage for the character's size (see Part One).

A monk's unarmed strike threatens a critical hit on an attack roll of 20 and deals double damage on a confirmed critical hit.

An unarmored monk can use a flurry of blows.

When unarmored (that is, when not wearing a suit of armor or using a shield), a monk using the full attack action can make one extra attack when attacking without a weapon or when using a special monk weapon.

Depending on the monk's class level, the extra attack might or might not impose an attack penalty (see the monk class description). If there is a penalty, it applies to all attacks the monk makes (such as attacks of opportunity) until the monk's next turn begins.

A monk cannot use a flurry when using anything other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon. A non-monk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way.

Link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

Person_Man
2007-07-27, 08:45 AM
STUFF.

Link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

I'm not sure why you posted that. The lengthy quote you provided supported my point. Perhaps you should read it. "For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-27, 09:11 AM
I'm not sure why you posted that. The lengthy quote you provided supported my point. Perhaps you should read it. "For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

I think the point is that you said:


Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks. Thus, any player can take Improved Natural Attack to increase his size as it pertains to calculating unarmed damage, including a Monk. It's specifically referenced in the official FAQ.

This is not the case. What the FAQ and the RotG article says is that Monk's qualify for Improved Natural Attack, not that everyone does.

Unarmed Attacks are not natural attacks, but a Monk's are treated as such for various purposes.

Tokiko Mima
2007-07-27, 09:22 AM
I'm not sure why you posted that. The lengthy quote you provided supported my point. Perhaps you should read it. "For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

Yes, but the average Player race won't qualify for that feat since it requires a natural weapon and:


Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons.

So you'd need to be a monster race or exotic player race or a class that gives you a natural weapon in order to qualify to take the feat in the first place. Unarmed Strike in and of itself doesn't count as a natural weapon. Yes, if you took it it would benefit your unarmed strikes, just as many magic buffing spells benefit unarmed strike as it were natural weapon. However, natural weapons and unarmed strikes are not the same thing and you must be careful when you're freely mixing the two.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-27, 09:56 AM
I could have sworn I read an argument a while back that "IUS makes your weapon count as both a natural and manufactured weapon, whichever is more beneficial", but I could be wrong about it.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-27, 09:58 AM
Yes, if you took it it would benefit your unarmed strikes, just as many magic buffing spells benefit unarmed strike as it were natural weapon.

That is not correct. You cannot benefit from Improved Natural Attack unless you have a natural weapon and Unarmed Strikes are not considered natural weapons unless you are a monk.

Person_Man
2007-07-27, 12:26 PM
That is not correct. You cannot benefit from Improved Natural Attack unless you have a natural weapon and Unarmed Strikes are not considered natural weapons unless you are a monk.

OK, that makes a lot more sense now. I've seen a million builds use Improved Natural Attack on unarmed strikes, and its on every list of "how to improve unarmed strikes" that I've read. But it seems as if you need to be a Monk (or a variant Swordsage?) in order to take Improved Natural Attack.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-27, 12:48 PM
The whole issue has confused many.

For example, until the FAQ entry came out it was very unclear that a Monk could benefit from Improved Natural Attack, since "effects" usually refers to magical effects.

Balance wise it is of course a non-issue for monks.

And there is always Superior Unarmed Strike for the non-monks.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-27, 01:10 PM
But you can't activate continuous items at all.
You put them on and they are working (though some take 24h to start working).Where did you get this mistaken idea? If you need to or want to activate an item with Use Magic Device and its magic is continuous, you make a check initially and each hour thereafter.
Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only)

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. So I can consciously choose to Emulate a Specific Individual (a Monk of level 15+) when I put on a Monk's Belt, and if I make the DC40 check then the Belt activates as if worn by that person. So I'd get the unarmed damage and AC bonus of that Monk, +5 levels from the Belt, allowing me to hit the unarmed damage cap for a Monk of my size. I'd need to repeat that check every hour while wearing the item.

UMD is a complex skill, and the description requires careful reading. You might want to go through it one more time.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-27, 01:23 PM
Yes, but the average Player race won't qualify for that feat since it requires a natural weapon and:
Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons.The opinion expressed in that article and the precedent set by WotC in Dragon Magic are at odds. The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) grants these feats (among other things):
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
There is no requirement of Monk levels to use the Fanged Ring.

Whether an unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon seems to vary from case to case, with no clear basic answer. The answer is yes for the Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang spells. It's also yes if you wear the Fanged Ring. I see no good reason why the answer should be no if you took both Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) without the Ring.

The item in Dragon Magic establishes RAW (albeit indirectly). The Rules of the Game article is respected opinion, but not RAW.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-27, 01:36 PM
Ok, that's it.

I take a staff, with a DC 40 UMD check, emulate pun-pun, and use his caster level and save DC's.

Reductio ad absurdum.

Indon
2007-07-27, 03:10 PM
So I can consciously choose to Emulate a Specific Individual (a Monk of level 15+) when I put on a Monk's Belt, and if I make the DC40 check then the Belt activates as if worn by that person. So I'd get the unarmed damage and AC bonus of that Monk, +5 levels from the Belt, allowing me to hit the unarmed damage cap for a Monk of my size. I'd need to repeat that check every hour while wearing the item.

UMD is a complex skill, and the description requires careful reading. You might want to go through it one more time.

So, we have a Rogue 19/Sorceror 1 capable of:

-Activating an Iown Stone to have Elminster's Caster Level +1.
-Activating a Monk's Belt to have level 20 Monk damage.
-Activating a Druid's Vestment to have Level 20 Druid Wildshape (with +1 use per day).
-Activating a Nightstick to become able to Turn Undead.

Etc.

That interpretation of the ability will be stopped by your DM. This falls into a "Rules as Not-Adjucated-Badly", or a RaNAB for short.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-27, 03:14 PM
That ability is SUPPOSED to be designed for items attuned to a single person. That's all. Not a method of bypassing the CL, class feature, casting stat, etc requirements of items.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-27, 03:15 PM
That ability is SUPPOSED to be designed for items attuned to a single person. That's all. Not a method of bypassing the CL, class feature, casting stat, etc requirements of items.

Because those features have their own DCs.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-27, 03:20 PM
Precisely.

Furthermore, you can't gain class features from use magic device, as they are covered in the "emulate class feature" function, which specifically states that you emulate them for the purpose of activation alone, as opposed to actually gaining them.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-28, 02:15 AM
The opinion expressed in that article and the precedent set by WotC in Dragon Magic are at odds. The Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, page 101) grants these feats (among other things):
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)
There is no requirement of Monk levels to use the Fanged Ring.

Whether an unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon seems to vary from case to case, with no clear basic answer. The answer is yes for the Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang spells. It's also yes if you wear the Fanged Ring. I see no good reason why the answer should be no if you took both Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) without the Ring.

The item in Dragon Magic establishes RAW (albeit indirectly). The Rules of the Game article is respected opinion, but not RAW.

The answer is very clear.
Natural weapons do not grant iterative attacks and the description of the monk's unarmed strike makes it clear that it is a special case.

Other exceptions exists, such as what can benefit from certain spells.

The existence of this item does not necessarily mean that the writer of Fanged Ring description did not understand the rules, although at this point I am not able to totally disregard that option.

It is a magic item and magic items can confer feat benefits even when the prerequisites are not met. That was established already in the DMG with Mighty Cleaving weapon enhancement.

StickMan
2007-07-28, 04:58 AM
wow hey look what I did. I would also like to point out that my monk build includes the fact I'm a warforged so I have battle fists which make me work as a monk of large size which ups the damage out put even more. Battle fists can also be enhanced more like normal gauntlets. This is why I think Warforged make the best monks.:smallbiggrin:

Darrin
2007-07-28, 09:45 PM
OK, that makes a lot more sense now. I've seen a million builds use Improved Natural Attack on unarmed strikes, and its on every list of "how to improve unarmed strikes" that I've read. But it seems as if you need to be a Monk (or a variant Swordsage?) in order to take Improved Natural Attack.

That SwordSage adaptation has been confusing the heck out of me. It says "give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency". Does that mean:

1) SwordSage gets Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st level, or does it get the monk version of Improved Unarmed Strike? Are their strikes treated as natural weapons? And I assume no flurry? Is the SwordSage treated as if he were a monk of the same level for feats/magic items/PrCs that advance or affect the monk's unarmed strike?
2) Does the SwordSage lose light armor proficiency but keep the ability to add Wis bonus to AC in light armor, or does the SwordSage get the monk's AC bonus instead?

Anyone know how that's supposed to work?

Curmudgeon
2007-07-29, 05:02 PM
That SwordSage adaptation has been confusing the heck out of me. It says "give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency". Does that mean:

1) SwordSage gets Improved Unarmed Strike at 1st level, or does it get the monk version of Improved Unarmed Strike? It gets exactly what the Monk gets, which counts as having Improved Unarmed Strike without actually selecting the feat, and the Monk's unarmed strike progression according to the Monk Table (3-10).
Are their strikes treated as natural weapons? They're treated just like the Monk's, so yes.
And I assume no flurry? Flurry isn't mentioned in the description, so you assume correctly.
Is the SwordSage treated as if he were a monk of the same level for feats/magic items/PrCs that advance or affect the monk's unarmed strike? Yes, but only for the unarmed strike. A Monk's Belt would give the unarmed damage of the SwordSage level + 5, but the AC bonus of a 5th level Monk.
2) Does the SwordSage lose light armor proficiency but keep the ability to add Wis bonus to AC in light armor, Huh? The SwordSage loses light armor proficiency. Period. There's no benefit.
or does the SwordSage get the monk's AC bonus instead? No, the SwordSage doesn't. But since the adapted SwordSage can't wear armor anyway, they can buy a Monk's Belt for the benefit.

Darrin
2007-07-29, 08:04 PM
Huh? The SwordSage loses light armor proficiency. Period. There's no benefit. No, the SwordSage doesn't. But since the adapted SwordSage can't wear armor anyway, they can buy a Monk's Belt for the benefit.

Then that doesn't make sense. At 2nd level, SwordSages add their Wis bonus to their AC if they're wearing light armor. Why would they get a bonus for wearing armor they're no longer proficient in? (Yes, I know you could cross-class, and there are much dumber things in the rules that don't make sense, but either the Wis bonus to AC should get dropped with the light armor proficiency or should be dropped down to no armor.)

Matthew
2007-07-29, 10:14 PM
You know, I am sure I read somewhere that the Light Armour/Insight Bonus thing had been subject to errata or a FAQ. There is an Ask Wizards entry that asks whether the Insight AC Bonus of the Monk and Swordsage stack. The answer is no on the grounds that they are both Insight Bonuses, which suggests that they think both can potentially apply at the same time [i.e. presumably when unarmoured].

Ramza00
2007-07-29, 10:22 PM
They are not insight bonuses they are bonuses with the same name, and they don't stack according to ask wizards here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a

If something is an insight bonus it will say it is an insight bonus. The bonus type for monk is an untyped bonus, that goes by the name "AC Bonus (Ex)"

Matthew
2007-07-29, 10:36 PM
Alright, my mistake.

Curmudgeon
2007-07-30, 09:49 AM
They don't stack according to ask wizards here

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20060904a I agree that they don't stack, but for a different reason. The SwordSage's AC bonus very specifically states that it works in light armor. Not in no armor or light armor. The Monk's AC bonus requires no armor. Thus you couldn't get them to work together, period.

The adapted SwordSage, who loses light armor proficiency, can buy a Monk's Belt and benefit from that while unarmored and unencumbered.

Darrin
2007-07-30, 10:09 AM
The adapted SwordSage, who loses light armor proficiency, can buy a Monk's Belt and benefit from that while unarmored and unencumbered.

That still doesn't fix the problem that a 2nd level SwordSage has a class ability he *can't legally use* as a SwordSage. Does the adapted SwordSage lose this ability entirely? It doesn't make a lot of sense ot require a SwordSage to multi-class into a non-SwordSage class or pick up a feat to use a class ability.

Person_Man
2007-07-30, 10:20 AM
I agree that they don't stack, but for a different reason. The SwordSage's AC bonus very specifically states that it works in light armor. Not in no armor or light armor. The Monk's AC bonus requires no armor. Thus you couldn't get them to work together, period.

The adapted SwordSage, who loses light armor proficiency, can buy a Monk's Belt and benefit from that while unarmored and unencumbered.

A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.

Thus even though an Unarmed Variant Swordsage lacks proficiency in light armor, he can wear a Mithral Chain Shirt or similar armor with no armor check penalty (as can any other PC who doesn't care about spell failure, in which case they need to wear Twilight armor) and gain his Wis bonus to AC. This is cheaper and more effective then buying a Monk's Belt, though admittedly the Unarmed Variant Swordsage will want a Monk's Belt anyway to boost their damage.

I use this trick all the time when I play a Skill Monkeys, who will also use a mithral shield with no penalty. And Dragonfire Adepts can walk around in Dwarvern Mountain Plate with a Tower Shield even though they have no armor proficiency, because their breath weapon can be used every round and never needs an attack roll. Just choose invocations with long durations that can be activated outside of combat (they suffer from spell failure, but since you can use them every round, you're free to spend as many rounds as you need to activate them out of combat, and then just walk around with them active). And avoid trying to any Str or Dex based Skill.

Indon
2007-07-30, 10:20 AM
It gets exactly what the Monk gets, which counts as having Improved Unarmed Strike without actually selecting the feat, and the Monk's unarmed strike progression according to the Monk Table

But the Monk gets more than that.

-The Monk's attacks count as both natural and manufactured weapons for stuff.

-The Monk can explicitly make unarmed attacks when their hands are full (though implicitly, anyone can do that already).