Can this party handle these young dragons?

[Specter]

The party, at level 11:

- Vengeance Paladin
Defense fighting style, Heavy Armor Master feat
Adamantine armor, +1 longsword, +1 shield, periapt of wound closure, ring of jumping

- Thief 6/Hunter (spell-less) 5
Archery fighting style, Alert feat
Bracers of Archery, +1 bow, boots of elvenkind, hunter's scimitar (custom item to deal +4dmg to favored enemies)

- Tempest Cleric
Observant feat
This guy managed to lose all his magic items on a deck of many things.

- Lore Bard
Headband of intellect, Boots of Elvenkind, ring of feather fall, Cloak of Protection
Magical Secrets spent on Haste and Fireball, not picked the ones from level 10 yet

- Abjurer Wizard
Keen Mind feat
Wand of Fireballs, Elven Chain, (something else I can't remember)

The enemies:

Four young red dragons (challenge rating 10 each).
Their copper dragon buddy will be fighting the big red dragon, while they take care of his kids. This will take place in the red dragon's lair, a volcano. The terrain will be a large crevice above lava; if they get pushed by the dragons, they will have to succeed on a DC10 Acrobatics/Athletics check to hang on to the rock edges or die (the party can revive people).

So, is this too hard? I was thinking about pitting them against wyrmlings, but that would be too easy, I guess. Thoughts?

[MaxWilson]

The party, at level 11:

- Vengeance Paladin
Defense fighting style, Heavy Armor Master feat
Adamantine armor, +1 longsword, +1 shield, periapt of wound closure, ring of jumping

- Thief 6/Hunter (spell-less) 5
Archery fighting style, Alert feat
Bracers of Archery, +1 bow, boots of elvenkind, hunter's scimitar (custom item to deal +4dmg to favored enemies)

- Tempest Cleric
Observant feat
This guy managed to lose all his magic items on a deck of many things.

- Lore Bard
Headband of intellect, Boots of Elvenkind, ring of feather fall, Cloak of Protection
Magical Secrets spent on Haste and Fireball, not picked the ones from level 10 yet

- Abjurer Wizard
Keen Mind feat
Wand of Fireballs, Elven Chain, (something else I can't remember)

The enemies:

Four young red dragons (challenge rating 10 each).
Their copper dragon buddy will be fighting the big red dragon, while they take care of his kids. This will take place in the red dragon's lair, a volcano. The terrain will be a large crevice above lava; if they get pushed by the dragons, they will have to succeed on a DC10 Acrobatics/Athletics check to hang on to the rock edges or die (the party can revive people).

So, is this too hard? I was thinking about pitting them against wyrmlings, but that would be too easy, I guess. Thoughts?

That party will lose that fight 9 times out of 10.

They could probably manage two young red dragons, if the young reds don't fight particularly smart. Three would challenge them and probably beat them 2/3 of the time. Four is just not going to happen, unless they have hidden capabilities that I'm not noticing. Even just the breath weapons are going to destroy everybody except the thief. (224 points of damage, DC 17 Dex save for half.) Not to mention 712 HP and and 176 damage per round (times hit percentage, which will be respectable since they have +10 to hit).

The only one who's going to survive is the thief, maybe.

In principle the PCs could still kill the dragons with advanced tactics, but if the players were thinking in terms of advanced tactics they'd never have made those character choices e.g. with Magical Secrets--those builds reveal straightforward smash-em-up thinking.

[Contrast]

Well first things first, I believe thats approaching a x3 deadly challenge. If the combat starts with each dragon using its breath attack you're going to have instant dead party members even if they pass their saves.


The terrain will be a large crevice above lava; if they get pushed by the dragons, they will have to succeed on a DC10 Acrobatics/Athletics check to hang on to the rock edges or die (the party can revive people).

This has happened to me multiple times in games. I will never understand why anyone thinks its a good idea to have instant death lava in combats with the purposeful intention of making it a hazard. It's not fun or exciting for the PCs because its just a 'opps you rolled low, guess you're dead'.

My initial suggestion would be to drop the number of dragons right down and maybe have some fire elementals or fire snakes or salamanders or something instead.

[Specter]

Ok, so one dragon is out. There will be three now. More changes are needed, apparently, but this is the bare minimum.
The crevice is also out, but I want some terrain goodness out of a volcano. What is harmful but not potentially deadly?

[Contrast]

I'm still worried for your party but I've made my thoughts known on that subject so moving on.

Evironmental ideas -

Pockets of hot gas/geyers.
Use lava but as a framing device, not something you're trying to push players into - make sure they can avoid it if they decide to. It can cut off areas of the map. There may be a short cut but you'll take fire damage from the radiant heat.
Difficult terrain in areas due to poor footing/ash/rough terrain.
Randomly determine wind changing causing smoke/smog to cover area blocking vision or choking.

Edit -


The only one who's going to survive is the thief, maybe.

For reference it looks like their thief only has 6 levels of rogue so he's going down too :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

Ok, so one dragon is out. There will be three now. More changes are needed, apparently, but this is the bare minimum.
The crevice is also out, but I want some terrain goodness out of a volcano. What is harmful but not potentially deadly?

The lava is fine. A party who goes into a volcano without being ready to deal with a little lava deserves what they get.

But if you want something else, something that might hamper both the dragons and the PCs, how about pockets of toxic gas?

[Vogonjeltz]

Well first things first, I believe thats approaching a x3 deadly challenge. If the combat starts with each dragon using its breath attack you're going to have instant dead party members even if they pass their saves.



This has happened to me multiple times in games. I will never understand why anyone thinks its a good idea to have instant death lava in combats with the purposeful intention of making it a hazard. It's not fun or exciting for the PCs because its just a 'opps you rolled low, guess you're dead'.

My initial suggestion would be to drop the number of dragons right down and maybe have some fire elementals or fire snakes or salamanders or something instead.

Lava is even a named hazard in the DMG, and it's not instant death.

[jaappleton]

So the party is aware they're going after some Red Dragons, right?

Did they purchase any potions of fire resistance or anything? Anyone got some tiefling blood in their veins? Anybody a fire genasi?

How prepped are they for this?

[Contrast]

Lava is even a named hazard in the DMG, and it's not instant death.

To quote the original post (emphasis mine):


The terrain will be a large crevice above lava; if they get pushed by the dragons, they will have to succeed on a DC10 Acrobatics/Athletics check to hang on to the rock edges or die

Even if you're using the lava rules in the DMG thats still a massive amount of damage to a level 11 character and provides the dragons with a significant buff in a fight which I do not feel they need any help.

Edit - as a side note, you said they could revive characters but at their level they still need a body yes? Pretty difficult to retrieve someone who died in a pool of lava...

[Vogonjeltz]

To quote the original post (emphasis mine):



Even if you're using the lava rules in the DMG thats still a massive amount of damage to a level 11 character and provides the dragons with a significant buff in a fight which I do not feel they need any help.

Edit - as a side note, you said they could revive characters but at their level they still need a body yes? Pretty difficult to retrieve someone who died in a pool of lava...

I know that was in the op, I was making the point that the DM is doing it wrong. Although I suppose exhibit A was, everything else.

[Specter]

The party will know exactly what they're facing, as the dragon needs them for support and fills them in. If the Wizard/Bard/Cleric don't prepare accordingly, then it will of course be a harder chance of staying alive.

I realize now that the pool of lava on a crevice could piss off players, so it's gone. The geyser idea is good, though I'm not sure about the anatomy of a volcano on the inside so I may be doing things in an unrealistic way.

These dragons will fight to the death, not only because they're protecting their treasure and family but also because if they flee their territory will be taken by enemy dragons. Just another background description.

[Aelyn]

... I'm not sure about the anatomy of a volcano on the inside so I may be doing things in an unrealistic way.

These dragons will fight to the death...
I love the juxtaposition of concern over realism with dragons (joking obv, I get that you're concerned with verisimilitude)

I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not it's geologically possible. Geysers are cinematic, semi-predictable, and force the party to manoeuvre - that makes them an excellent hazard to my mind.

Another possibility - you say the full-grown red is fighting a copper at the top of the volcano? Could this cause hazards like rockslides?

[jaappleton]

A big issue you have with even three Young Reds is their Dragon Breath.

I honestly don't recall, but if it recharges on say a 5 or 6, make it recharge only on a 6 in this case.

It'll toast them to bits.

[Finback]

Another possible idea - use less dragons (say, 2), and give them better use the environment - I mean, they're growing up there. Give them a single lair action or something that an adult would get more uses of.

[Cespenar]

Even 1 Young + 3 Wyrmlings are a Deadly encounter, albeit being much, much more manageable than 3 Youngs.

Am I missing something here?

[Potato_Priest]

It is my opinion that no encounter should EVER have more than 2 opponents with breath weapons.

Our lvl 9 party once had to fight 11 hell hounds in an arena. Had I not gotten high initiative and put up a wall of stone, we would have all died from succeeded saving throws.