I wish the warlock was different mechanically... (ranting at the sky)

[Prince_Vorrel]

Okay i like the warlocks flavor and HELL i like how it plays mechanically. And just FYI im talking pure classing the lock here.

I just don't think its right that the DARK spellcaster archetype that is the warlock doesn't get a LOT of the coolest evil-esque spells and is limited in its magical power by its mechanics.

Because he gets spells on a short rest he can only cast 2-3 spells every handful of encounters in a dungeon or blows his whole load on one big one and is stuck spamming EB for the rest of the session. Overall though if your smart it plays okay mechanically and it feels pretty awesome honestly with the neat little invocations and EB giving you some constant damage in exchange for the few spells you get.

Be flavor wise it all feels weird. My WARLOCK my trafficker in the darkest of magics eager to do ANYTHING to obtain power no matter how foul through the use of pacts with demons and eldritch horrors...can't learn how to raise dead. Or summon demons/devils. HELL he can't freaking learn a lot of the cooler evil spells unless he's with the right patron. No fireballs for freaking christ sake if i go with the GOO which makes hitting level 3 magic less of a big jump in power.

He CAN learn how to summon elementals at 9th level! ...but it costs a valuable eldritch invocation slot...and a spell slot which you barely get any of. AND you dont get con proficiency like a sorcerer to resist losing said elemental and none of the helpful things the conjurer gets.

You FEEL like a martial class who has the whole subclass into magic. Instead of a weapon i have eldritch blast. Instead of magic i have 2-3 spells i can use once or twice a session. But i'm squishy like a caster with only light armor. My magical power doesn't scale at all close to a sorcerer or wizzy magic wise. My durability doesn't scale at all close to a martial character. Oh and strangest of all...my bread and butter that i apparently traded all my magic power for...eldritch blast, scales with CHARACTER level.

so why should i NOT just multiclass 2 levels in warlock? I'd be a LOT more powerful and if i went with sorcerer I'd become this crazy dangerous spell caster able to cast spells slightly less often then a normal sorcerer but could QUICKEN eldritch blast for single target damage that would make any min-maxed GWM fighter impressed. Or go paladin instead and become very tanky and dangerous in melee with your smites AND have a powerful ranged ability that the pally usually lacks AND get all the support goodies that a pally gets!

I know im ranting at this point but I have to finish this...




I just...thought a warlock would all be about getting nasty tricks and power...at a price. Maybe have the pact be different? Pact of chain becomes about making the warlock a better summoner at the cost of being weaker himself and vulnerable if he is without summons (since lets say his summoning abilities he gets only happen once a day in order to stop animate dead on a short rest cheese). pact of the tome to make the warlock more of a dedicated spell caster on par with say a bard BUT at the price of durability and flexibility with a limited spell list that focuses more on damage/power and almost zero utility? Blade lock! they've already started doing this, allowing locks to use their spell casting abilities as a price to increase their melee power losing out on the flexiblity and power of spells. Power...at a price!

Sorry this had gone on too long as it is and I could probably rant all day about this. I just wanted to vent and express my problems with my favorite class flavor wise.

[jaappleton]

Do you play at a home game, or AL?

Because I have some suggestions (assuming your DM agrees to them) based on your answer.

[Prince_Vorrel]

Do you play at a home game, or AL?

Because I have some suggestions (assuming your DM agrees to them) based on your answer.

I wouldn't mind hearing your suggestions simply because I love reading homebrew stuff even though i never play it. But the problem I have is that we shouldn't HAVE to homebrew in order to make a WARLOCK feel like a dark spell caster eager for power at any price instead of the arcane archer he feels like now.

[Jerrykhor]

You make a lot of good points, I too feel strongly about the Warlock class. Every Munchkin taking dips in it is just disrespecting the class, as if the patron would willingly give their powers just for Eldritch blast spam. Its silly.

[jaappleton]

I wouldn't mind hearing your suggestions simply because I love reading homebrew stuff even though i never play it. But the problem I have is that we shouldn't HAVE to homebrew in order to make a WARLOCK feel like a dark spell caster eager for power at any price instead of the arcane archer he feels like now.

Alright, here's my suggestion. I got my DM to agree to it, and I'm thankful for it. I've used it for only two sessions now, on my Hexblade, and it helps a lot.

Part of the issue with the Warlock is that for the majority of your adventuring career, you have 2 spell slots, right? So in one battle you can blow everything and then you've got nothing left at all. And that's a terrible feeling, to be left with nothing but Cantrips as you watch your Cleric and Wizard friends wreck stuff with their spells.

So what we did at my table is use the spell point system from the DMG, but short rests. So at lv3, I have 6 spell points. A first level spell costs 2 points, and a second level spell costs 3. And now I'm still short rest dependent, which maintains the feel of the Warlock, but allows me to cast first level spells at first level instead of being forced to upcast them. I can cast three first level spells per short rest, or two second levels, or one of each.

Fellow playgrounder tkuremento wrote up a chart for using short rest dependent spell points that can be found here (For my settings, its at the bottom of the first page) : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512338-Spell-Points-What-are-the-benefits-drawbacks

In my eyes, that solves over half the Warlock issues right there. The ability to cast lower level spells at lower levels instead of being forced to upcast them.

[Honest Tiefling]

You make a lot of good points, I too feel strongly about the Warlock class. Every Munchkin taking dips in it is just disrespecting the class, as if the patron would willingly give their powers just for Eldritch blast spam. Its silly.

You could always say that the patron just hands the warlock the keys, it's the warlock's job not to drive into a colossal dragon. As in, the patron gives the character the ability to learn these things, but the character themselves decides how much effort they want to dedicate to that path.

[Unoriginal]

Be flavor wise it all feels weird. My WARLOCK my trafficker in the darkest of magics eager to do ANYTHING to obtain power no matter how foul through the use of pacts with demons and eldritch horrors...can't learn how to raise dead. Or summon demons/devils. HELL he can't freaking learn a lot of the cooler evil spells unless he's with the right patron. No fireballs for freaking christ sake if i go with the GOO which makes hitting level 3 magic less of a big jump in power.

A Warlock isn't someone who would do anything to obtain power. A Warlock is someone who sees such paths to power such as Wizardry, which require intelligence and lots of work, Clerics' miracles, which requires true faith and dedication, or even Bard's mystic music, which would be accessible for someone Charismatic like a potential Warlock, and goes "meh, this is dumb, better make a deal with something that's already powerful so they make me powerful".

And so, they only get spells that their patron can and wish to give them. It makes them powerful, maybe, but limited.

[Prince_Vorrel]

You make a lot of good points, I too feel strongly about the Warlock class. Every Munchkin taking dips in it is just disrespecting the class, as if the patron would willingly give their powers just for Eldritch blast spam. Its silly.

Flavor wise it does make sense that warlock is attractive for multiclassing (the trope making a deal with the devil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DealWithTheDevil) is a very neat trope for DnD and fits thematically!)

But having said attraction be for literally two levels for ONE thing that is the most BORING part of the warlock kit...feels very...odd and wrong. Like paying the devil 20 bucks for being made VERY attractive. sure it makes sense but your gonna get a LOT of use out of being attractive and the price is ONLY 20 bucks which while im sure the devil could use...I just highly doubt he'd be willing to do such a fair and rather small-time trade.

If im making deals with LITERAL demons and cthulu there should be some seriously powerful pros...as well as seriously crippling cons.

[jaappleton]

If im making deals with LITERAL demons and cthulu there should be some seriously powerful pros...as well as seriously crippling cons.

You're looking at it the wrong way.

Let's say you're a Fiend pact. You made a pact with Mephistopholes.

You're level 1. One. Meph likely made about 84 pacts with people this morning. He's hoping at least 3 pan out and reach at least level 8 so maybe they can actually be impactful in his plans.

He made an investment. When you make a Pact, you're so low level that you're not even a blip on their radar. In my mind, you're not talking to the big man Meph at that point. He's sending the occasional Imp to check in on you. Reach some higher levels and he'll start taking notice, and that's when the big payoffs start rolling in.

You need to level up to earn his attention to get the power you want, y'know?

[Prince_Vorrel]

A Warlock isn't someone who would do anything to obtain power. A Warlock is someone who sees such paths to power such as Wizardry, which require intelligence and lots of work, Clerics' miracles, which requires true faith and dedication, or even Bard's mystic music, which would be accessible for someone Charismatic like a potential Warlock, and goes "meh, this is dumb, better make a deal with something that's already powerful so they make me powerful".

And so, they only get spells that their patron can and wish to give them. It makes them powerful, maybe, but limited.

then why isn't every farm boy dreaming of greatness and every dude in alleys with nowhere to go making these deals if they are so easy? Its because they AREN'T easy, at least not in the traditional sense. You have to be borderline crazy and ruthless and determined to make LITERAL deals for power with beings like fey and demons and GOO. If it was as easy as "well hell man all this work for magic seems really lame I'll just go call up Beelzebub, lord of the flies and one of the seven princes of the eternal hells where all evils souls burn forever and get some power nice and easy" then seriously EVERYONE would do it. I mean for god sake it'd make sense if it was that easy for EVERY village to just be full of level 1 warlocks that just Eldritch blast ANYTHING that looks funny at the town...would stop orc raids quick.

Entities like those the warlocks make deals with go for the power hungry individuals. They have drive and would actually be willing to sell their souls or some equivalent otherwise it makes no sense for warlocks to be so rare and reviled. (even GOO where the old one doesnt know it has a warlock does VERY nasty things to those touched by them...if your a GOO warlock you aren't borderline crazy you ARE full stop crazy and should be played as such)

its not HARD to get this power it's true...it's easy...oh so easy, just like you said. But you have to give...you have PAY for it. You have to be willing to look the demon in the face and smile back at him madness and determination at the edges of your eyes...agreeing to the terms knowing what you will have to pay JUST so you can get that so easily gained power that those idiots in their towers denied you!

[Prince_Vorrel]

You're looking at it the wrong way.

Let's say you're a Fiend pact. You made a pact with Mephistopholes.

You're level 1. One. Meph likely made about 84 pacts with people this morning. He's hoping at least 3 pan out and reach at least level 8 so maybe they can actually be impactful in his plans.

He made an investment. When you make a Pact, you're so low level that you're not even a blip on their radar. In my mind, you're not talking to the big man Meph at that point. He's sending the occasional Imp to check in on you. Reach some higher levels and he'll start taking notice, and that's when the big payoffs start rolling in.

You need to level up to earn his attention to get the power you want, y'know?

What big payoffs?!! Is there a page of the warlock class i missed? Because honestly only the ranger straight out of the PHB scales worse then a pure classed warlock. There is a reason everyone and their mother just does the 2 level dip thing for eldritch blast+charisma thing. it's because its the warlocks capstone. it scales with CHARACTER level. it does frankly ridiculous damage for how little investment it requires. You can even make it knock things back if ya'd like! Everything else the warlock can do is done by every other class better.

Wanna be a dark edgy spell caster? Go sorc till level 6 for your level 6 goodie then throw on 2-3 levels of lock for that dark edgy deal with the devil and the ability to quicken eldritch blast for hilarious levels of damage. OH! and your still mostly a sorcerer so no only 2 spells a session for you my friend! :D

Dark and edgy warrior? Go pally till you hit level 6 (again, oddly enough) for your charisma to all your saves and then throw on 2 levels of lock for a VERY good ranged ability that scales with your main stat which is basically your numero uno weakness. Oh and those 2 spells your get on a short rest...can smite. OH and if you use Unearthed arcana you can go 3 levels in lock for DOUBLE SMITING POWER! (which i imagine is scary as **** for your dm if you crit the boss.)

There is nothing about the dedicated warlock that makes him feel like powerful warrior or spell caster. HELL he doesn't even really get that much utility. He just spams EB over and over again for respectable damage then uses his 2 spells a day on the boss and is done for the session. if I was that guy I would Probably feel rather cheated for selling my soul (OR equivalent) to be a weird arcane archer mechanically.

[Mortis_Elrod]

if I was that guy I would Probably feel rather cheated for selling my soul (OR equivalent) to be a weird arcane archer mechanically.

I agree with everything you're saying,...but! makes alot of sense to me a lord of the nine hell's managed to outsmart this smuck and gave him chump change power for a soul.

[Prince_Vorrel]

I agree with everything you're saying,...but! makes alot of sense to me a lord of the nine hell's managed to outsmart this smuck and gave him chump change power for a soul.

except mr.beezle doesn't really benefit from that so much. one soul? THAT'S chump change. ya wanna know whats not chump change? A decently powerful spell caster who owes you everything for his power and is your eyes and ears on the material plane AND that wasn't even the price said spell caster paid for that power! (Heck even a simple 'just go and spread chaos and kill ****' contract works wonders for a devil's warlock. Said warlock is running around killing **** that probably doesn't serve the devil AND is a nice little window into the material plane that can be influenced and used to do things the devil wants.)

In DnD terms most of the demons and devils who make deals to teach mortals how to tap into the same power they themselves tap into PROBABLY want to keep said mortal happy and alive. A happy and alive servant in the material plane is FAR more useful then a dead one in hell. HECK! they probably want them to go and spread. Have kids. take on apprentices.

Almost the same reason why cows and chickens are two of the most numerous species of animals...they're useful.

[Sigreid]

..., Clerics' miracles, which requires true faith and dedication...

To the cynical mind the difference between a cleric and a warlock is the warlock actually knows what he's getting out of his bargain. The cleric or common worshiper gives his devotion/soul away with no guarantees.

[Talionis]

I agree that spells know for Warlocks do blow. Many spells that would seem thematic aren't on the list additionally, the high level spells really aren't that attractive.

[Sigreid]

I agree that spells know for Warlocks do blow. Many spells that would seem thematic aren't on the list additionally, the high level spells really aren't that attractive.

If a player I was DMing for were out of sorts over the spell selection, I would at least consider letting him pick his spells known off of any list. I think that might suit their strange and mysterious nature well and since they don't prepare spells I wouldn't think it would bugger things too much.

Besides, shouldn't a warlock be able to summon and bind a lesser fiend? (as an example)

[Mortis_Elrod]

Pretty sure souls aren't chump change. here's my reasoning. Even if is one soul. Every single fiend is willing to trade. Trade alot. for just a single soul. just one. Makes more sense if souls don't have a quantifiable value and are therefore priceless, especially the soul of the individual who managed to grab Mephistopheles's attention. Now yes, it would be a good investment to give that guy some cool powers, maybe you get alot out of it. OR you give the guy just a tiny bit of power. Just enough that he's hooked but not so much that he doesn't want more from you. You want this guy to want MORE power, so that hes willing to do MORE for it. So give him a cool spammable decent attack, but shaft him on everything else. He'll either come back asking for more or he'll be satisfied with such insignificant power. Either way you got his soul, a priceless thing, for the low low cost of a cantrip. The patrons are more drug dealers, not farmers making sure their livestock is happy.


So with this logic the true issue is scaling with warlock, along with no options for greater power or bargaining. Let me sell the souls of the foes ive slain with my blade pact for MORE POWER!!!!!! let me bind the wills of creatures to my own via domination or contract (the patron of course gets a 80% cut of all souls bound to your will of course) and the tome....i got nothing but the idea is there.

[Prince_Vorrel]

If a player I was DMing for were out of sorts over the spell selection, I would at least consider letting him pick his spells known off of any list. I think that might suit their strange and mysterious nature well and since they don't prepare spells I wouldn't think it would bugger things too much.

Besides, shouldn't a warlock be able to summon and bind a lesser fiend? (as an example)

I actually kind of like that! Magical secrets but only one spell of every level past 6 and can only be cast once? Seems like a pretty good restriction...makes its a slightly subpar magical secrets sure but it does expand the warlock potential amount of power for emergency situations by quite a bit!

and yes...yes a freaking warlock should be able to summon and bind a lesser fiend! (at least if they are a fiend pact one)

[Jerrykhor]

Flavour wise, a high level Fiend Chain lock should totally be able to summon some powerful demon/devil as a pet.

[Prince_Vorrel]

Pretty sure souls aren't chump change. here's my reasoning. Even if is one soul. Every single fiend is willing to trade. Trade alot. for just a single soul. just one. Makes more sense if souls don't have a quantifiable value and are therefore priceless, especially the soul of the individual who managed to grab Mephistopheles's attention. Now yes, it would be a good investment to give that guy some cool powers, maybe you get alot out of it. OR you give the guy just a tiny bit of power. Just enough that he's hooked but not so much that he doesn't want more from you. You want this guy to want MORE power, so that hes willing to do MORE for it. So give him a cool spammable decent attack, but shaft him on everything else. He'll either come back asking for more or he'll be satisfied with such insignificant power. Either way you got his soul, a priceless thing, for the low low cost of a cantrip. The patrons are more drug dealers, not farmers making sure their livestock is happy.


So with this logic the true issue is scaling with warlock, along with no options for greater power or bargaining. Let me sell the souls of the foes ive slain with my blade pact for MORE POWER!!!!!! let me bind the wills of creatures to my own via domination or contract (the patron of course gets a 80% cut of all souls bound to your will of course) and the tome....i got nothing but the idea is there.

the problem with all this is that this is STORY stuff NOT mechanics. Very few players are really gonna wanna spend 1-3 sessions helping the warlock deal with his demon master in order for him to get some power to be ON PAR with the rest of the group. Especially IF you have to go do this every time you hit a new level milestone (5-11-17 or whatever)

And remember you don't HAVE to give your soul and you probably don't even make a deal with mephy himself. I'd imagine there is more then one warlock who was a young farm boy with no life prospects that met a demon/fey/thing in the crossroads/woods/nightmares and made a deal to owe said creature a handful of favors in return for true power.

[skaddix]

If you want free power without having to invest time or soul...that is what sorcerer is for. Sorcerer cant ever lose their power. You cant lose favor with your God or Patron ala Cleric or Warlock. You cant have your spell book jacked ala the Wizard. You cant betray any oaths ala Paladin and Druid.

[Mortis_Elrod]

the problem with all this is that this is STORY stuff NOT mechanics. Very few players are really gonna wanna spend 1-3 sessions helping the warlock deal with his demon master in order for him to get some power to be ON PAR with the rest of the group. Especially IF you have to go do this every time you hit a new level milestone (5-11-17 or whatever)

And remember you don't HAVE to give your soul and you probably don't even make a deal with mephy himself. I'd imagine there is more then one warlock who was a young farm boy with no life prospects that met a demon/fey/thing in the crossroads/woods/nightmares and made a deal to owe said creature a handful of favors in return for true power.

yes its fluff. fluff i feel is how the warlock should feel. Also the warlock needn't drag his party to bargain with his patron, he need only sleep or the equivalent and the fiend could come by in his dreams answering his call. It be weird if the cleric needed to stop by a church to pick up spells or summon a messenger from his god.

mechanically i have only a few issues with the current warlock

-spell selection
-capstone
-invocation variety
-overal scaling

I would change the patrons to have only 1 or 2 abilities that they grant at 2-3 points over the course of the class. But id make the pact options scale more instead, and provide different options based on patron but still similar. probably 2 abilities that scale with class level per pact. and then LOTS of invocations. the class should be packt with them, and they should be weird, flavorful, and utility over damage based. and then make the spells come from any class list, with the slot scaling of a half caster, spells on long rest. Invocaions at will/short rest. class starts with Cantrips. gets spells level 2. starts with 2-3 invocations. light armor. d8. oh and picks pact weapon at 1st. i find that it makes more sense that i sealed the deal with my patron through a cursed sword, book of otherworldly knowledge, or the chains that once held an ancient being, than for me to report in with my suga daddy and ask if i can borrow that magazine, i got some shillelaghing to do.


but thats just me dreaming. it probably be really imbalanced.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Oh and the capstone of the warlock should be that he breaks his pact with his patron, turning on him and then retaining the powers he's acquired and much more. Mechanically it be similar to a magnum opus for the artificer, a permanent knowledge/power/buff. I dont have anything in mind offhand, but the current patron capstones are fine (though fey should seems like the fiends but just slightly different), its eldritch master that i want changed. Warlocks are oathbreakers by name. Not pact keepers (well at least not in the end).



Though now that i think on it. seems like im going back into the area that requires your party to come with you, and no capstone should require the team to accomplish.

[JackPhoenix]

If you want free power without having to invest time or soul...that is what sorcerer is for. Sorcerer cant ever lose their power. You cant lose favor with your God or Patron ala Cleric or Warlock. You cant have your spell book jacked ala the Wizard. You cant betray any oaths ala Paladin and Druid.

I wouldn't call it "free" power. You can't just decide you want to be a sorcerer. You're either born with the power, or you're out of luck for the rest of your life. And if you DON'T want to be sorcerer, tough luck... you'll end up as some scaled mutant or self-burn before the witch hunters even get to you through wild magic Fireball anyway. You propably don't even have control of your magic at first. Got too angry in an argument with your friend? Congratulations, you may have inadvertently set him on fire. Better start running before the pitchfork-wielding mob gets to you....

[skaddix]

Warlock or at least a pure one does tend to come across as A Magical Archer. Or a Ranger without the Nature Theme.

Great Dip not a great pure class in my book.

[Potato_Priest]

I wouldn't call it "free" power. You can't just decide you want to be a sorcerer. You're either born with the power, or you're out of luck for the rest of your life. And if you DON'T want to be sorcerer, tough luck... you'll end up as some scaled mutant or self-burn before the witch hunters even get to you through wild magic Fireball anyway. You propably don't even have control of your magic at first. Got too angry in an argument with your friend? Congratulations, you may have inadvertently set him on fire. Better start running before the pitchfork-wielding mob gets to you....

Not all sorcerers are born with their power. A significant number of dragon ancestry sorcerers are actually gifted their powers by dragons (which is a little strange, given that they aren't powers that dragons can tap into themselves, but hey.) Some sorcerers even make pacts with dragons. The difference is that dragon blood, once given, can't be taken away. Personally, I've never seen a sorcerer character who acquired their powers by their own actions, but it can happen.

[HidesHisEyes]

I made a similar thread recently and I feel the same way as the OP of this one. The niche I imagine the warlock filling is all about nasty, cruel, insidious magic. Specifically the fiend for pain and destruction, the GOO for mind****ery and terror, the archfey for charms and enchantments. Now it could be argued that that niche is already filled by a certain build of wizard, and the warlock needs something of his own. Which is fine I guess, except that it makes absolutely no sense that that thing is essentially "dude with a gun".

[Misterwhisper]

Quick and easy warlock fix.

Give them proficiency with shields and medium armor normally. (Pact of the blade should have had this anyway.)
Give them the casting progression of a Ranger/Paladin.
Make Eldritch Blast not a spell but a class ability.
Get rid of the short rest spell retrieval mechanic, and just make it they can change their spells known on a short rest.
Get rid of mystic arcanums and make a few specific spells of level 6 - 9 available as invocations with level requirements.

[JellyPooga]

Okay i like the warlocks flavor and HELL i like how it plays mechanically. And just FYI im talking pure classing the lock here.
[snip]
Be flavor wise it all feels weird. My WARLOCK my trafficker in the darkest of magics eager to do ANYTHING to obtain power no matter how foul through the use of pacts with demons and eldritch horrors...can't learn how to raise dead. Or summon demons/devils. HELL he can't freaking learn a lot of the cooler evil spells unless he's with the right patron. No fireballs for freaking christ sake
[snip]
You FEEL like a martial class who has the whole subclass into magic. Instead of a weapon i have eldritch blast. Instead of magic i have 2-3 spells i can use once or twice a session.

Ok, so you like the flavour and you like the "short rest spells"+Invocation mechanics, but basically you don't like the spell list, right?

You feel like the "best" Warlock spells are all the ones that are martially oriented (Eldritch Blast, Armour of Agathys, etc.); making you feel like a soldier, not a trafficker in dark arts yes?

Solution: Don't take Eldritch Blast.

Seriously. That's the solution to your problem. Don't take Eldritch Blast. Don't do it. BAM! You're not a glorified archer anymore.

"Oh JP, I can't do that, I'll be useless in combat if I don't take Eldritch Blast; it's the best thing the Warlock has going for them!", I hear you winge.

RUBBISH! I say. The awesomeness that is Eldritch Blast is the petty payoff that lesser dabblers in the dark arts are given for whatever terrible price they paid for it. As a true Warlock, you have access to far greater power for staying the course. It's a Cantrip, for Pete's sake...the least of your powers, the icing on the cake, no more significant than Minor Illusion or Light.

Now, "where am I going with this?" you ask. Here's the thing;
- Warlocks aren't artillery...but they can be if they want.
- Warlocks aren't debuffers...but they can be if they want.
- Warlock aren't summoners, they're not utility casters and they're not fighters....but they can be if they want.

Want to know what the Warlock really is? It's the Rogue of the spellcasting world. Or more accurately, the Thief (not the archetype, btw). Yep, that's right, he's the one that stole his power from someone else and it's the way he uses it too. Take another look at the spell list...what do you see? Do you see the mighty arcana of the Wizard? No. Do you see the blasting awesomeness of the Sorcerer? No. Do you see healing or battlefield control? Nope. There's some of the above there, but it's only lip-service really. What is there, then? Manipulation, deception, trickery, stealth. Sure, you don't get your big flashy spells or demon summoning (well...no-one gets that unless you use UA material, so that point is moot), but you do get the ones that allow you to become the Grand Vizier (turban, curly shoes and snake-staff optional) by working your way up the ranks of your organisation of choice until you're in a position to effect real and lasting change in the world for your Patron. THAT's where the evil is. THAT's where the insidious nature and the true power of the Warlock lies. Not in the casual summoning of eldritch powers to kick ass and take names, but in the long term. The Warlock is the Cultist, the High Priest, the Grand Vizier; working unseen and unsuspected from the shadows toward a grander plan.

Does this help in your average dungeon bash D&D game? Not at first glance, not really; long term goals and immediate gratification by looting dungeons are rarely all that compatible, but let's take a little step back and look again at Eldritch Blast. It's awesome, right? So awesome, in fact, that with very little investment, it's a competetive weapon all the way up to level 20. And Warlocks get it at level 1. If you're recruiting people for a quest, whether you're a mysterious old man, a desperate village major or the king, who are you going to recruit? Some dudes that are awesome, right? What's more awesome than some guy that literally cannot be disarmed of his death ray? The Fighter might lose his sword, the Wizard his spellbook or the Cleric his holy symbol, but the Warlock? That guy just keeps on going. He's the ultimate back-up plan. Everyone wants him on their team. His high Charisma (and maybe a little magical persuasion) helps him solidify that particular notion in their heads.

Now, what do adventurers typically do? At low level, they go and kill orcs, loot dungeons and generally do stuff to get them famous enough to do something more significant. As soon as they're doing work for a powerful organisation, that's where the Warlock turns from being some mook archer-guy to doing a little work for his Patron. He can manipulate the parties benefactors for better rewards, he can cherry pick the best missions (if there are multiple on offer), he can get access to information, archives, storehouses, armouries. This sort of stuff keeps his companions sweet; "Hey, that guy's ok, he gets us nice stuff even when we're not down a dungeon". His real work, however, is done when everyone else it taking some down-time; down the dungeon he's just another archer, pinging off his Eldritch Blast, "contributing" with the occasional bit of awesomeness like Hunger of Hadar or whatever, getting his slap on the back from the other, less long-sighted, companions and his share of the loot. When it comes to returning to town and everyone else is drinking at the tavern, working on their research or whatever else it is they do, the Warlock comes into his own because above all else, the Warlock is patient.

"Wait, what?" you cry? Warlocks are patient? Yep, that right. Give a Wizard one day to accomplish something and he'll either do it straight away or have to wait until tomorrow, if he can do it at all. The Warlock, however, can play the waiting game, kick his heels for a bit and try again. And again. And again. He can plan around having to wait an hour; he wants to wait an hour. He has no need to rush in and get it done before the duration on his spells run out; he just recasts them. He plays the long game because his power is practically unlimited under those circumstances. Given time, the Warlock has far more raw power than any Wizard. Take a level 5 Wizard; he has a couple of 3rd level slots, 3x2nd level and 3x1st level, right? A Warlock has only two 3rd level slots...per short rest. Rest three times and the Warlock has had eight 3rd level slots. Rest eight times and the Warlock has had eighteen 3rd level slots. Given a day to himself, without the pressures of "adventuring" and the Warlock is treating his highest level spells as being, functionally, at-will, which to a Wizard is crazy-talk. Want to complain about not being a spellcaster now?

Imagine the possibilities of being able to cast Charm Person or Suggestion as many times as you need to in a day. How about Hold Person, Invisibility or Scrying? Being able to regularly spy, unseen, from anywhere on the same Plane, on someone that if you know them and have a piece of them, they have a -15 modifier on their Save against it...and if that person is, say, the Kings secretary, or the guy who sets the guards schedule. You only have a 10 minute window with Scrying; if a Wizard doesn't get the info he needs in that 10 minutes (ok, 30 minutes if he uses the other 5th level slot he has at 10th level and his Arcane Recovery ability) he has to wait another day. The Warlock? "No worries Brah, give it an hour and I'll try again". Imagine the insidious, evil, dark possiblities...

...No, the Warlocks spell list is just fine the way it is. You just need to think longer term and put that Charisma to work persuading your fellow party members to do the same. You're the guy that can really do a lot of work behind the scenes. Yeah, down the dungeon you might be a glorified archer, but you also negotiated a good deal with the city guard to get them to send a few meat-shields along with you, or who has a pet Mercenary, or Scryed out the vault for the party Rogue to go steal that awesome magic sword the Fighter's using from that stuck-up noble-guy that no-one liked anyway (if you didn't just Dimension Door in and steal it yourself). The Warlock is Faceman...as in, the actual Face from The A-Team that the trope is based on; he's the guy that is charming and social, but he's also the guy that you can say "I need two gallons of Alchemists Fire, a cart and a three legged rat by 10 o'clock tonight" and he'll get it (just don't ask how). He's also James Bond; in the moment, he's nothing really that special, just a dude with a gun. Give him a week, though and he'll know the location of the bad-guys base, have already stuck a few spanners in the works, have the bad-guys best girl eating out of the palm of his hand and pissed him off enough that he almost cares more about killing Bond than he does completing his plan for world domination.

[Mortis_Elrod]

went to sleep woke up checked this thread....love this forum. Maybe jelly is right. the spells may be fine as is, and i never thought to play Jafar until now. HAVE to try it.

[KorvinStarmast]

if I was that guy I would Probably feel rather cheated for selling my soul
In literature, that's how it usually works out. One day, Dr Faustus realizes that he played a loser's game.

(Me, I wish the spell casting stat was Int for warlocks. Oh well.

[Steampunkette]

I love that warlocks recover spells on short rests, have access to less spells, have access to different spells, and don't have a full casting progression.

I love that Warlocks have Invocations which allow them to better flesh out their abilities by selecting from a palette of options.

I love that Warlocks have Pact Boons that give them options to play in such -different- ways.

I like the Fluff of Warlocks well enough, but that's literally all it is. And I like how Fluff can be changed at a moment's notice. Maybe my next "Fey Pact of the Blade" Warlock will fluff up a Magic Bow all the time for her Eldritch Blasts and I'll call her an Arcane Archer, completely ignore the pact as a power source, and have her magical spells be less important to her progression through leveling.

I'm already playing a Hexblade who is all about Melee Cantrips and Eldritch Blasts for her bread and butter of combat, but who uses more Vulgar magic in larger affairs because it's so -freeing- to flaunt the anti-magic ideology of the Chondathan people. He patron? A dagger. A dagger she has as a tattoo on her hand that doesn't do much talking or demanding aside from the desire to seek battle.

Previously, in a Dark Sun campaign, I played a Great Old One Pact of the Blade warlock completely refluffed. I chose GOO because there wasn't any WotC Psionics at the time and I rolled her up as a Psychic Warrior. No pacts or patron, just limited spellcasting options, psychic warding for survival, and two weapon attacks in a round that would eventually get empowered with psychic power (Lifedrinker). Same Crunch, different Flavor.

The next one I'l be playing? A twist on the classic "Fiend" by having a Tiefling bind to a powerful Devil (Not an Archdevil) as a material-plane soldier in the eternal Blood War. She's not trading off her soul (That may or may not already be owned), no is she vowing to serve her patron in all things. She's bargaining power from Hell to fight a different Hell, and thanks to the Eternal War she's able to get it.

She's also going to use the Hexblade kit rather than the Fiend patron 'cause they want a -soldier-, not a Sorcerer. But she's going Pact of the Tome so she can be a battlefield controller! With the 6 available cantrips she'll have Eldritch Blast, of course. But she'll also have Control Wind, Shape Earth, Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade, and Thorn Whip. Why? Drop Hunger of Hadar. The enemy charges out of it to attack. Repelling Blast back into it. They run out the back? Thorn Whip to drag them back in! MUAHAHAHAAAAA!

Why would I take Shape Earth and Control Wind? CW allows me to have a non-concentration 5 foot tall Wind Wall that also lets me jump an extra 10ft. And Shape Earth lets me bury the bodies more quickly, build Cover for ranged combat, or otherwise prepare a battlefield.

I -love- how flexible the gameplay styles for the Warlock are. From manipulators to Pseudo-Psychic-Warriors to Artillery to Troubleshooters. The fluff is great, but you can always rewrite the fluff.

[Prince_Vorrel]

Snip snip since its a big quote

Okay...as cool as you made it sound. This is dumb. very dumb. I don't what groups you've played in but in the groups i can find around town are guys who are tired after work and want to play a dungeon romping game with a bit of story and rp'ing thrown in to give stuff context and make it more epic.

sure the grand vizier build your talking about would be nice in a one shot. But 90% of groups aren't gonna want to entertain the warlocks visions of doing lots of deception and manipulation at most you get to do some of that level of stuff every 2-3 or so sessions.

Im not saying your wrong and that the warlock can't do what you said very well. But this game has been streamlined and built around COMBAT and dungeon romping with some nice and light rp stuff thrown in for fun. which his how almost every group ive played with uses 5e.

not taking eldritch blast would mean i get to spend most of my session EVERY session doing nothing...

[Steampunkette]

Okay...as cool as you made it sound. This is dumb. very dumb. I don't what groups you've played in but in the groups i can find around town are guys who are tired after work and want to play a dungeon romping game with a bit of story and rp'ing thrown in to give stuff context and make it more epic.

sure the grand vizier build your talking about would be nice in a one shot. But 90% of groups aren't gonna want to entertain the warlocks visions of doing lots of deception and manipulation at most you get to do some of that level of stuff every 2-3 or so sessions.

Im not saying your wrong and that the warlock can't do what you said very well. But this game has been streamlined and built around COMBAT and dungeon romping with some nice and light rp stuff thrown in for fun. which his how almost every group ive played with uses 5e.

not taking eldritch blast would mean i get to spend most of my session EVERY session doing nothing...

It's cool that you kick in the door. Lots of people do that.

Not everyone. But lots.

[Prince_Vorrel]

It's cool that you kick in the door. Lots of people do that.

Not everyone. But lots.

I know and thats what im saying. Im saying MOST of the time as in 90+% of players are gonna be in a kick in the door/pink Mohawk type of party. Which is what the game is obviously built around.

[Honest Tiefling]

I know and thats what im saying. Im saying MOST of the time as in 90+% of players are gonna be in a kick in the door/pink Mohawk type of party. Which is what the game is obviously built around.

That's why there are backgrounds and inspiration points and long descriptions of characters to base your PC on. I would actually argue that 4e and 3e were built with more combat in mind.

[Prince_Vorrel]

That's why there are backgrounds and inspiration points and long descriptions of characters to base your PC on. I would actually argue that 4e and 3e were built with more combat in mind.

oh its definitely easier to get players into light or moderate RP then it has ever been with those. BUT most groups are still gonna be your pink mohawkers and the streamlined and very quick combat is very well made for that type of play style.

All i was saying is that a warlock who doesnt have eldritch blast and instead goes for more out of combat deception and manipulation is going to be near useless for MOST groups for 90% of what they do. and even then that grand vizier play-style warlock isn't even the best at that play style once again. A bard especially or a more Charisma based Rogue (which works surprisingly well) can do it waaaaay better AND still be good in combat.

The bard especially becomes something that the warlock can't even compete with. Way more flexiblity magic wise WITHOUT the magical secrets. WAY more skill points. Can actually tell people what they are truthfully without making the townsfolk get pitch forks. oh...and he's still the best support character in the game or the best healer or best blaster all depending on what he picks for his magical secrets.

The warlock in comparison. gets deception and persuasion using a valuable eldritch invocation slot, something the bard/rogue gets for free. Stealth has to be gotten via a background or race skill. a lot of his magical perks from eldritch invocation are just straight up inferior to the bards magical selection and probably wont compete with a devoted charisma rogue with reliable talent.

see what I mean?

[Steampunkette]

I know and thats what im saying. Im saying MOST of the time as in 90+% of players are gonna be in a kick in the door/pink Mohawk type of party. Which is what the game is obviously built around.

Until you can do a representative study of D&D players (Not players at Conventions, not players on these forums, not players who use Roll20, but literally everyone who plays) you're just throwing conjecture.

[Mortis_Elrod]

oh its definitely easier to get players into light or moderate RP then it has ever been with those. BUT most groups are still gonna be your pink mohawkers and the streamlined and very quick combat is very well made for that type of play style.

All i was saying is that a warlock who doesnt have eldritch blast and instead goes for more out of combat deception and manipulation is going to be near useless for MOST groups for 90% of what they do. and even then that grand vizier play-style warlock isn't even the best at that play style once again. A bard especially or a more Charisma based Rogue (which works surprisingly well) can do it waaaaay better AND still be good in combat.

The bard especially becomes something that the warlock can't even compete with. Way more flexiblity magic wise WITHOUT the magical secrets. WAY more skill points. Can actually tell people what they are truthfully without making the townsfolk get pitch forks. oh...and he's still the best support character in the game or the best healer or best blaster all depending on what he picks for his magical secrets.

The warlock in comparison. gets deception and persuasion using a valuable eldritch invocation slot, something the bard/rogue gets for free. Stealth has to be gotten via a background or race skill. a lot of his magical perks from eldritch invocation are just straight up inferior to the bards magical selection and probably wont compete with a devoted charisma rogue with reliable talent.

see what I mean?

which is why the warlock should be stacked with invocations. more of them and more slots for them. invocations should be the go to for warlocks, spells second. Sadly you don't have that option because we need more, and you have so little to have anyway. id take the warlock being a half caster with standard long rest and no cantrips for lots of invocations. make eb class feature.

[Prince_Vorrel]

Until you can do a representative study of D&D players (Not players at Conventions, not players on these forums, not players who use Roll20, but literally everyone who plays) you're just throwing conjecture.

considering that is an impossible task atm unless somehow wizard of the coast made a huge survey that somehow got most players to fill it out, this is a pretty unfair statement. YES i have bias yes my personal experiences may not be what is mostly out there and that i SOMEHOW live in some strange bubble of players that play only pink mohawk for the past 20 years.

but i seriously doubt it.

Look this isn't my first game. Ive been playing since Advanced Dungeons and dragons and have done groups IRL and online. 20+ groups of varying lengths. yes its all my subjective personal experiences. but out of all those games ive only had a group that was more focused on RP and talking through things and playing stuff out that way...once. And on top of that almost every module from Curse of Strad or Tiamat to the older modules from 3.5 are all combat focused with light RP for context. So im not just talking out of my butt here when i say most groups are probably going to be pink mohawkers

(also has anyone else noticed that those modules for groups to run through are a lot more popular then in 4e? I've seen quite a few groups running CoS lately)

[Prince_Vorrel]

which is why the warlock should be stacked with invocations. more of them and more slots for them. invocations should be the go to for warlocks, spells second. Sadly you don't have that option because we need more, and you have so little to have anyway. id take the warlock being a half caster with standard long rest and no cantrips for lots of invocations. make eb class feature.

oh i'd be down for that! Make warlocks more of a class that uses invocations to get a bunch of spell-like abilities like many magical creatures get (especially demons and devils)? Hellz ya~

[Steampunkette]

considering that is an impossible task atm unless somehow wizard of the coast made a huge survey that somehow got most players to fill it out, this is a pretty unfair statement. YES i have bias yes my personal experiences may not be what is mostly out there and that i SOMEHOW live in some strange bubble of players that play only pink mohawk for the past 20 years.

but i seriously doubt it.

Look this isn't my first game. Ive been playing since Advanced Dungeons and dragons and have done groups IRL and online. 20+ groups of varying lengths. yes its all my subjective personal experiences. but out of all those games ive only had a group that was more focused on RP and talking through things and playing stuff out that way...once. And on top of that almost every module from Curse of Strad or Tiamat to the older modules from 3.5 are all combat focused with light RP for context. So im not just talking out of my butt here when i say most groups are probably going to be pink mohawkers

(also has anyone else noticed that those modules for groups to run through are a lot more popular then in 4e? I've seen quite a few groups running CoS lately)

Yeah, you are kinda talking out of your butt on this one, to use your own turn of phrase.

If you're looking for that sort of game you're going to fall into that sort of crowd. You're going to look for games that play the way you like them rather than the ones you don't like. For my part I often search through games online looking for the ones that match what I want (a healthy split where combat is meaty but it's not the whole sandwich). I don't go around counting the ones I don't want to be in and categorize them in a running tally. Pretty sure you don't do that, either.

There's also the issue of: We're both older players. We're vets who have played for decades. Most of the people I played with when I was a teenager no longer play thanks to family obligations, changing tastes, and the like. The new generation isn't the same as us. Isn't the same as our generation. Twenty years ago a game like Minecraft would never have taken off like today because we wanted set piece stories or guns and running or whatever. So there's a generational assumption, there, too, where the younger generation wants stuff we didn't at that age. They're also exposed to different ideas and concepts that shape their perceptions than we are, which is -super- important to consider (Especially since they outnumber us by a lot).

So yeah. There's no way to know what most players want. We're all going to be in our own bubbles whether it's a regional bubble (Playing with people in the same game shop and the attitudes and atmosphere that shop's culture fosters) or a more explicit bubble (Looking around for national or international games that specifically appeal to a certain playstyle).

That said, I'd be really interested in an Invocation-centric Warlock... but I still love cantrip-heavy ones.

[JellyPooga]

Okay...as cool as you made it sound. This is dumb. very dumb. I don't what groups you've played in but in the groups i can find around town are guys who are tired after work and want to play a dungeon romping game with a bit of story and rp'ing thrown in to give stuff context and make it more epic.

I get where you're coming from and it's totally legit. For the "kick in the door" style game, the Warlock can feel kinda dull and yes, it can feel little more than a "glorified archer". Having said that, not every game is "kick in the door" and just as a socially focused Bard or Rogue can feel lacklustre in a combat-oriented game, so does the Warlock; it's not alone in that regard. Some Classes, abilities and Feats do certain styles of game better than others. The Ranger, for example, in a game without much Exploration or travelling, won't get much use out of Natural Explorer and a Cleric won't be using Turn Undead without any Undead to Turn. Likewise, the Actor Feat is terrible for combat, but potentially invaluable in a social environment.

Warlocks can be built to perform more than admirably in a combat-focused game and for that style of game Eldritch Blast is a go-to, if not a necessity...their strength, however, lies in the slower-paced game; the intrigue game, the investigation game, the city-based adventure where time and the dangers of the environment are not so much of an issue as they are down a dungeon. By not taking Eldritch Blast and focusing more on their other abilities and spells, you can learn to use the Warlock less as mobile artillery and more as the manipulative, secretive, stealthy "power behind the throne" or "quartermaster/Faceman" style character. Even in a combat-heavy game, the benefits of what the Warlock can bring to the table, such as the additional minions and extra resources they might be able to procure, even at short notice (e.g. Charming the Guard Sergeant to persuade him to send a contingent of the militia with you, without having to worry about being "under power" when you leave later that day), can be insanely influential on the outcome of a mission.

In short, the Warlock is not designed to be artillery; that's what the Sorcerer does best. Judging the Class in terms of the least of their abilities; in this case Eldritch Blast, is a really good way to misunderstand the strength of that Class. You don't judge the Wizard by the fact that he can cast Light or the Bard by Vicious Mockery; it's a handy thing to have, but it's not what makes that the Wizard or Bard fun to play; it's not his strength. Same for the Warlock and Eldritch Blast; it's handy to have, but it's not what makes that Class fun; it's not his strength. The Warlocks strength lies in his ability to play the long-game; he excels in a game where time isn't so much of an issue and manipulation, subtlety, deception and stealth are the order of the day and particularly in response to the OP, that long-game is where the "darker" side of the Warlock and his Pact really shines through; not with big, flashy spells with balck lightning and demons appearing in a cloud of sulpherous smoke, but in the insidious things you can do with spells like Charm Person, Scrying and Dream far more regularly than any other caster over that longer period.

[Mortis_Elrod]

oh i'd be down for that! Make warlocks more of a class that uses invocations to get a bunch of spell-like abilities like many magical creatures get (especially demons and devils)? Hellz ya~

yeah that's what i really want. which makes me crave 3.5 because that's how they generally were. i just know it be better in 5e if only it was designed that way. id rather a new invo every level, add like 25 more invos to the current list, and then take away the casting all together. just have some invos copy spells, at will/short rest long rest for the big stuff. oh and then give them cantrips. lots of them. all of them hell they're just cantrips. make eb the bread and butter class feature, like smite or bardic inspiration. make the pact boons invocations too if it seems like the class is being overloaded, give them all the creative fun cantrips, and maybe only 2 damage ones. I remember in 3.5 warlocks were one of the few ways you could make a magic item craftsman that didn't need to know the spell to make the item and had the ability to deceive magic items (umd take ten even if threatened or distracted), bring some of that into an invocation. UMD and maybe some extra attuning.

Does this seem like too much for a class? am i just wanting the older version back?

[Steampunkette]

"Patron: The Three and the Five"

XD

Let them keep Pact Magic, but instead of giving them access to more spells or granting a whole bunch of class abilities it just gives out a ton of invocation slots.

Then create invocation trees and another 40-50 invocations.

Sounds like a plan!

[Iamcreative]

"Patron: The Three and the Five"

XD

Let them keep Pact Magic, but instead of giving them access to more spells or granting a whole bunch of class abilities it just gives out a ton of invocation slots.

Then create invocation trees and another 40-50 invocations.

Sounds like a plan!

Oh man, invocation trees sound awesome. Even though Im not sure why, that just sounds fabulous.

[Prince_Vorrel]

The Warlocks strength lies in his ability to play the long-game; he excels in a game where time isn't so much of an issue and manipulation, subtlety, deception and stealth are the order of the day and particularly in response to the OP, that long-game is where the "darker" side of the Warlock and his Pact really shines through; not with big, flashy spells with balck lightning and demons appearing in a cloud of sulpherous smoke, but in the insidious things you can do with spells like Charm Person, Scrying and Dream far more regularly than any other caster over that longer period.

Then why are there two classes that do this better? Why are so many of these things your describing given to rogues and bards for free while he has to use valuable eldritch invocation slots (which he doesn't get a lot of.). And worst of all...all those insidious things he can do? charm-scrying-ect...he still only has 2 spell slots. So while you being all insidious and something happens (Not combat necessarily but if your playing a RP/drama esque session something is gonna have to happen to create said drama and tension...the lock probably has ONE spell slot left since he already used his first one to say...get in the place he snuck into to infiltrate or to make the one obnoxious and paranoid guard leave him alone.) your gonna be screeeeewed!

The bard and rogue on the other hand thanks to their more lasting abilities or more numerous spell slots still has a goodies bag worth of the same spells the warlock could use still good to go and help them through this part.

HELL a sorcerer with the quiet metamagic or the one that gives his spells super distance can be waaaaay more insidious then any warlock. charm person silently in public without anyone noticing...

[Steampunkette]

One thing that my hubby and I both do in games we run: Minor Uses of Ability.

Stuff like a Warlock cursing NPCs that aren't important to the main story with the "Evil Eye" or whatever. It doesn't have a real mechanical benefit, the NPC just deals with bad luck or misfortune as dictated by the curse given. It helps to retain a lot of the flavor of a Warlock independent of actual important abilities like skills or combat abilities.


Every character essentially has Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, or some other basically useless but "Neat" cantrip based on what sort of character they are. Fighters can recognize weapons or their wielders, Barbarians can spook horses without giving away their position by yelling or anything, rogues just -know- the value of anything they might wanna steal...

It really helps to reinforce the concepts without messing with the abilities at all.

[Mortis_Elrod]

One thing that my hubby and I both do in games we run: Minor Uses of Ability.

Stuff like a Warlock cursing NPCs that aren't important to the main story with the "Evil Eye" or whatever. It doesn't have a real mechanical benefit, the NPC just deals with bad luck or misfortune as dictated by the curse given. It helps to retain a lot of the flavor of a Warlock independent of actual important abilities like skills or combat abilities.


Every character essentially has Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, or some other basically useless but "Neat" cantrip based on what sort of character they are. Fighters can recognize weapons or their wielders, Barbarians can spook horses without giving away their position by yelling or anything, rogues just -know- the value of anything they might wanna steal...

It really helps to reinforce the concepts without messing with the abilities at all.

hats a amazing and ill def be doing that more often. However i still want my necrolock

[Steampunkette]

I made a Necrolock once...

I just reflavored the Fiend pact.

Got my Eldritch Blast downgraded to Necrotic Damage from Force, called "Dark One's Blessing" Life Leech, turned all the Fire Damage into Necrotic or Cold (DM decided which spell used Which type), and turned "Hurl Through Hell" into "Dig The Grave" and refluffed the visuals as a Coffin closing around the target and burying them in the ground, forcing them to spend their next turn digging out of their own grave (The damage was still Psychic).

Why not do that with the Hexblade or the Fiend? Could even do it with the GOO and turn all the Tentacle Bits into skeletal arms reaching out of the ground at people.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Yeah reflavoring things goes along way, but i still want to be summoning undead. if i recall i can't as a warlock without grabbing create undead with mystic arcanum.. when animate dead is a 3rd level spell.....let me have it **** it.

[Matticusrex]

Using the spell point variant rules for warlocks completely fixes their awful limitations and helps get them closer to a fun and viable power level.

[JellyPooga]

Then why are there two classes that do this better?

Put it this way; for the type of character I'm talking about there are three options:

1) Rogue: Non-magical, uses Expertise and other proficiencies to get the job done.

2) Bard: Spellcaster, uses a mix of skills and magic, but has to ration his spells over the course of the day.

3) Warlock. Spellcaster, only uses magic to get the job done, but is functionally unlimited in the long-game.

The Bard doesn't have the same raw spellcasting ability that the Warlock does over the course of a day. Given adequate opportunity to rest, over a 16 hour day, a <10th level Warlock is looking at anything up to 18 spells of his highest level available, while the Bard can only claim at most 3. That's a significant difference that is made up for with Expertise and a greater ability to improvise "in the moment" with his larger number of available spells at any one time (albeit of lower level).

So to take a specific example, let's look at level 3. The Bard can cast Suggestion twice, but has Expertise for when he runs out. By comparison, a level 3 Warlock can cast Suggestion anything up to 9 times as often over the course of the day (assuming a 16 hour day). For raw spellcasting over that period, the Warlock has the Bard licked.

Which is better? That's a matter of opinion and style, but it's undeniable that when time is taken out of the equation, such as in downtime or in certain styles of game, the Warlock has the ability to be godlike.

You make a good point that in unexpected circumstances, the Warlock can be screwed; but that's kind of to be expected. This style of Warlock is all about the pre-planning; he's able to scry out the circumstances, manipulate the pawns and time the mission to a "T", but if something goes off-track, he can struggle...but that's what he needs his more short-term focused allies for. Even for a Warlock, D&D is a team game.

[Herobizkit]

I just wanted to chime in and say @JellyPooga gets Warlock.

As silly as it sounds, only people who LOVE Warlock are gonna play Warlock for any other reason besides EB.

A similar stigma surrounds Bards. Many see them as healers and vicious mockery guys, but they can do so much more.

... which explains why Bard and Warlock are my #1 and #2 favorite classes. ^_^

With the new Warlock UA, the 4e style Hexblade makes a resurgence and it looks hella solid.