I need your guys's help yet again

[EightBitEngine]

Last thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?516617-I-would-like-to-hear-your-thoughts-on-my-situation&p=21749304#post21749304

I rolled up an int/cha focused rogue who was a detective by trade and was meant to be the party face/investigator but when I got to the game day one this other guy made a spellcaster that was designed to do all the same stuff and me and him argued. Well me and the other guy came to an agreement.

He would give up the stealth and will do all the planing/info gathering/party face stuff if I gave up the charisma and did all the stabbing and sneaking

So I made an int/dex rogue instead with a negative 3 cha mod that way I wouldn't even be tempted into doing any investigating or speech craft stuff.

I tried to build a character around this idea of an antisocial rogue. I decided my character is good at stealth not because they are "A bad ass detective" but hides because they are scared.
My character doesn't like conflict and is also a goblin living in a human city so she has to hide from the guards anyways. She can't get a job because she is a goblin so she has to break into peoples homes at night to eat and steal gold.

So I have a dex/int rogue who's back story and life make perfect sense why she cant be party face, no one in town would trust a goblin and she doesn't like talking to people anyways.

So I have a perfect solution to my problem.

Well now I have a new problem. My brother doesn't want me to make an all new character and wont back down from that stand.

So now I need help thinking of a reason that a character who has always wanted to be a charismatic leader type and is a detective would suddenly change his mind and want to be the skulking around in the dark antisocial type of rogue... any ideas?

[Metahuman1]

Mechanically, flub the first fort save that no one's looking too closely at so you can die as a matter of luck of the dice.

Sit your brother down away form the jerks player, and tell him point blank that you joined this particular as a personal favor to him at his request and you do not like the way you have been treated and will not keep rolling over and just taking it. You are going to scrap your current character one way or another, or you are just not going to bother gaming with him after this.


From there, either walk out if he's not willing to suck it up and deal with a minor false start and a new character, or roll a new character.

[GilesTheCleric]

This is an out-of-character problem, and any solution is going to have to be out-of character. It's difficult to be confrontational, but you can always frame your argument as being that you're going your best to help out the other guy, but can't. People take that pretty well.

[Geddy2112]

Reading your other thread... now you are stuck playing this character because your brother(who is DM) said so? Again, you were asked to play, and seem to be getting a lot of grief to do so. I would walk away.

That said, if you are going to stay, stick to your guns. Play your character and do you. Don't let them constantly bully you into characters you don't want to play, or have to constantly change because they said so.

There is also a misconception that only one person can do a particular thing, and that is utterly wrong. In the current campaign I am playing in, we have 3 people who are good at diplomacy, 3 good at sense motive, 2 good at intimidate, 2 wis based divine casters with almost the exact same spell list, 2 ranged damage dealers, 2 healers, 2 strikertanks(they are basically both). Basically, we have a ton of overlap and while my character is the primary face, 2 other characters routinely pick up the reins in that regard. However, this has not negatively impacted the game at all.

It only becomes a problem when one character who is built so narrowly as to only being able to do one thing is overshadowed by another character specializing in the same thing, or when a role is drastically lacking. Actually sometimes it is fun when the entire party is focused on one style of play and sorely lacking in others(all bards or something equally zany)

So don't hate, or make it a peeing contest between you and casterbro. Let him pop off his "profession: criminal mastermind extraordinaire" and invisibility spells(which is poor system understanding if he thinks that will make him the stealthface) and then you just do you. He needs a few days with his profession? Your intimidate check gets the same info in 60 seconds. Invisibility is a spell, it goes away after x minutes per level. It also does not make you undetectable and unless he maxes stealth it is not the know all end all of stealth. A crapton of things can see right through it, and magic can get dispelled. Unless he has silent and still spell, casting attracts attention and is not just something you can do.

You have three options. 1-quit. 2-Roll with what you built, and let the dice fall where they may. 3.Take obviously suicidal actions and get your character killed so you roll a new one.

[EightBitEngine]

Reading your other thread... now you are stuck playing this character because your brother(who is DM) said so? Again, you were asked to play, and seem to be getting a lot of grief to do so. I would walk away.

That said, if you are going to stay, stick to your guns. Play your character and do you. Don't let them constantly bully you into characters you don't want to play, or have to constantly change because they said so.

There is also a misconception that only one person can do a particular thing, and that is utterly wrong. In the current campaign I am playing in, we have 3 people who are good at diplomacy, 3 good at sense motive, 2 good at intimidate, 2 wis based divine casters with almost the exact same spell list, 2 ranged damage dealers, 2 healers, 2 strikertanks(they are basically both). Basically, we have a ton of overlap and while my character is the primary face, 2 other characters routinely pick up the reins in that regard. However, this has not negatively impacted the game at all.

It only becomes a problem when one character who is built so narrowly as to only being able to do one thing is overshadowed by another character specializing in the same thing, or when a role is drastically lacking. Actually sometimes it is fun when the entire party is focused on one style of play and sorely lacking in others(all bards or something equally zany)

So don't hate, or make it a peeing contest between you and casterbro. Let him pop off his "profession: criminal mastermind extraordinaire" and invisibility spells(which is poor system understanding if he thinks that will make him the stealthface) and then you just do you. He needs a few days with his profession? Your intimidate check gets the same info in 60 seconds. Invisibility is a spell, it goes away after x minutes per level. It also does not make you undetectable and unless he maxes stealth it is not the know all end all of stealth. A crapton of things can see right through it, and magic can get dispelled. Unless he has silent and still spell, casting attracts attention and is not just something you can do.

You have three options. 1-quit. 2-Roll with what you built, and let the dice fall where they may. 3.Take obviously suicidal actions and get your character killed so you roll a new one.

Oh trust me I know more than one person can do the same role typically it's just this guy haults the game to argue if anyone tries to do something he feels is his role.

Also I agree when you guys say I should walk but I wont be doing that. If this campaign goes down in flames I don't want it to be my fault. Mine and my brother's relationship isn't as solid as I would like it to be and backing out of this game now will only hurt it. I can take the bullying and abuse it's not like it's going to last forever.

What I really need is an idea for a logical why to change my old character to fit a stealth and stab only role. Even if it's a stretch I'll take any somewhat decent idea because I cant think of one my self.

[Geddy2112]

Oh trust me I know more than one person can do the same role typically it's just this guy haults the game to argue if anyone tries to do something he feels is his role.
This is a red flag to leave the game, as somebody will certainly step on his toes with this kind of attitude.


Also I agree when you guys say I should walk but I wont be doing that. If this campaign goes down in flames I don't want it to be my fault. Mine and my brother's relationship isn't as solid as I would like it to be and backing out of this game now will only hurt it. I can take the bullying and abuse it's not like it's going to last forever.
When it does go to hell, you are likely to be considered culpable for the downfall at worst, and outright blamed at best. I disagree that voluntarily subjecting yourself to that kind of thing is in any way, shape, or form, alright. Family member or whatnot. Not getting too much further into all of this, this is a VERY out of character problem, and in character solutions(like changing the backstory of your character) won't fix, mend, delay, provide pallative care to, or even address these underlying issues.


What I really need is an idea for a logical why to change my old character to fit a stealth and stab only role. Even if it's a stretch I'll take any somewhat decent idea because I cant think of one my self.
Again, I strongly disagree that this is the right solution. That said, you can be good at social skills, have a strong charisma, and still be a sneaky reclusive angry murderhobo. Just pretend your character is batman, and drop the Bruce Wayne side. Or switch your class to vigilante(pretend you did not know of it, maybe you did not, tell your brother it fits the concept better) so you can always just be the sneaky angsty avenger and not the socialite.

[Blu]

Dude, your dignity and morals are worth more than a bully. It maybe is even more sad for you that your brother seems to be ignoring this freaking a**hole behaviour. I already played with toxic players and I can surely say to you that is not a matter of if but when the table gonna crumble. If you want to improve your relationship you surely can find a more healthy and fun way for both of you.

[Dagroth]

Yeah, if it were my older brother running the game and this kind of thing happened with me... I'd tell him point blank how messed up it is.

It wouldn't happen with my younger brother... I'm sort of "the god of roleplaying" to him. :smallbiggrin:

Roleplaying games are my hobby... my stress relief. Even so, I almost always play the Cleric or (in high-tech games) the Inventor/Doctor. I tend to play the character who facilitates the group and tries to keep things on track. Or, if I'm in the mood, I play the guy who just doesn't quite fit in. The guy who still uses a claymore in a pirate game. The Norseman who still believes in the Old Gods in a strongly Christian-centric Europe. The Necromancer who supports the party because they distract the populous while he conducts his experiments.

In the situation you've described, I would've not played the Wizard just like you did. And then, when jerk-boy said, in effect, "Oh, I'm also doing what you were planning on doing too." That would be it. My response would be "Oh, so you don't need my character after all. No problem. Here you go bro, here's my character sheet in case you want to use it as an NPC. I'll see you at Mom's for Dinner on Tuesday."

Seriously. There are other gaming groups out there if you want to game. If you're only doing it as a favor to your brother, then it's work. And if you don't like your job and you don't get paid for it... Quit.

[JonathanPDX]

There are so many red flags, I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to this voluntarily. Gaming is supposed to be a fun social activity you all do together; if they want to butt heads and fight about who is the best you'd be better off leaving the dice behind and playing Doom or Monopoly or whatever it is kids play these days.

Leaving at the start doesn't make you responsible for the failure of their group but staying in when you know it's going to end badly makes it very likely you will be the scapegoat. The question is not whether or not it ends badly, only when it happens and whether or not you are there when it does.

If you choose to stay involved in this group despite everyone's advice you should accept that it is going to get worse, not better, and there will not be a happy ending. You're far more likely to end up with real-life conflict than in-game success. I would never risk a friendship or relationship with a family member over a game.

[Metahuman1]

1: Sit your brother down with out the other problem player around. Make sure he understands that while you are going to make best effort here, if this get's screwed up, you are not taking responsibility for that on the grounds that, frankly, the only reason you are still here is to try and, as best as your currently able, help him out. Make sure he understands this, and make sure he is committed to the fact that it's not your fault if this goes south. (I firmly suspect it will but you should act like it has a chance. Will make it harder to blame you or scape goat you that way.)

Have reliable witnesses that he will listen too for this conversation. That's important if this DOES go south so that he can't conveniently forget what all was said and that he committed to the not your fault part.

2: Offer to be group historian. Record the sessions. Audio should do but if you can swing it video is better. Say this is to help make sure you can quickly take notes later while minimizing slowing the game down. Keep certain notes for things like NPC's, loot that isn't currently claimed by one person exclusively, one or two other things of that nature. They don't have to be fantastic, just enough to justify the recording device.

Now, when this falls apart, show it to the people you had play witness in 1, and have them and you tell your brother that this was not your fault, it was *insert name of at fault party or party's here* fault. Hopefully this will hammer it home to him that you did everything you could and more then was reasonable to ask and if he needs to be mad at someone, you are not that someone.




3: Now to the in character stuff.

Invest in craft poison making and having a tone of blades. Both fit the concept, having a dozen or more concealed weapons to throw/stab/cut/hit with in different fashions hidden about your person and using poison cause you don't believe in a fair fight.

Make poisons that will defiantly kill your character if she got hit with them.

Apply them constantly, and always roll that percential die.

Have a lower then 10 Wisdom Score.

Congrats, you justified killing your character by rolling badly 1 time and it was in character so you can't be blamed.




Roll up a Vigilante, Inquisitor, Alchemist, or if Dreamscarred Press is on the table consider a Stalker or Soul Knife.

[Pleh]

Well now I have a new problem. My brother doesn't want me to make an all new character and wont back down from that stand.

So now I need help thinking of a reason that a character who has always wanted to be a charismatic leader type and is a detective would suddenly change his mind and want to be the skulking around in the dark antisocial type of rogue... any ideas?

I say you need more info. Why does your brother not want you to change your character? It feels like you're wandering through a minefield of expectations. The least he can do is give you a map. Trying to navigate by trial and error is an exercise in futility.

What does he want from you? Is the other guy not allowed to change character either?

As for the answer to your other question, are you familiar with Rorschach? (https://www.google.com/search?q=rorshach+watchmen&oq=rorshach+watchmen&aqs=chrome..69i57.8303j0j4&client=ms-android-att-us&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)

[prufock]

I'm hesitant to supply the rationale you're requesting for your character, because I strongly agree with other posters who have pointed out that this is a game from which you should walk. However, that said...

Your character has pissed off the wrong people. That could be the mob, the local authorities, a powerful spellcaster, the church, or whatever works for you story-wise. You put that high Charisma to work with mundane disguises, bluffs, perform (acting), and so on to go deep, deep, DEEP undercover. Even your own party doesn't know your true identity. Instead of being the "skulking around" stealthy type, you are the "hide in plain sight" stealthy type.

[Darrin]

So now I need help thinking of a reason that a character who has always wanted to be a charismatic leader type and is a detective would suddenly change his mind and want to be the skulking around in the dark antisocial type of rogue... any ideas?

I will attempt to address this, but I think your best strategy (assuming you're going to remain in this game) is to invest as little resources into this character as possible, and not get too invested into it. It sounds like this game is not really going to be worth the value of your time and effort.

Aside from all that... I wasn't clear if the int/cha rogue was female or male? Anyway, some ideas on why this otherwise charismatic rogue would want to keep a low profile:


The rogue detective went through a traumatic event, and is now convinced he/she is a goblin that will be exposed as a spy.
Slight variation on above, the rogue detective is an actual goblin that was polymorphed into a human by an evil (but somewhat senile) witch. He/she is looking for a cure for this "curse", but isn't all that social due to not knowing all that well how to act like a convincing human.
The rogue detective is a human that was actually raised by a tribe of goblins, was apprenticed to a hobgoblin super-detective, mentor got killed in some sort of falling out with the tribe, and is now trying to reconcile his/her human heritage in a city that is freaking him/her out.
Standard Batman trope: Parents were killed, now entire life is consumed with an elaborate mission that involves being an anti-social vigilante.
Standard Han Solo trope: Owes a large sum of money to a crimelord, can't currently pay it back, and really needs to lay low until the heat goes down or they can scrape up the cash.
Failed actor/actress, hence the high charisma. Throw some ranks in Perform, had a falling out with a theatre troupe for whatever reason, turned to detective work to pay the bills, but is still pretty upset about the whole thing and not dealing well with having their dreams crushed.
The rogue detective's older brother asked him/her to help the party as a favor, but the brother is now being a stinky buttpimple about the whole thing.

[Blu]

The rogue detective's older brother asked him/her to help the party as a favor, but the brother is now being a stinky buttpimple about the whole thing.


I think i see some reference but i'm not certain...

[EightBitEngine]

I will attempt to address this, but I think your best strategy (assuming you're going to remain in this game) is to invest as little resources into this character as possible, and not get too invested into it. It sounds like this game is not really going to be worth the value of your time and effort.

Aside from all that... I wasn't clear if the int/cha rogue was female or male? Anyway, some ideas on why this otherwise charismatic rogue would want to keep a low profile:


The rogue detective went through a traumatic event, and is now convinced he/she is a goblin that will be exposed as a spy.
Slight variation on above, the rogue detective is an actual goblin that was polymorphed into a human by an evil (but somewhat senile) witch. He/she is looking for a cure for this "curse", but isn't all that social due to not knowing all that well how to act like a convincing human.
The rogue detective is a human that was actually raised by a tribe of goblins, was apprenticed to a hobgoblin super-detective, mentor got killed in some sort of falling out with the tribe, and is now trying to reconcile his/her human heritage in a city that is freaking him/her out.
Standard Batman trope: Parents were killed, now entire life is consumed with an elaborate mission that involves being an anti-social vigilante.
Standard Han Solo trope: Owes a large sum of money to a crimelord, can't currently pay it back, and really needs to lay low until the heat goes down or they can scrape up the cash.
Failed actor/actress, hence the high charisma. Throw some ranks in Perform, had a falling out with a theatre troupe for whatever reason, turned to detective work to pay the bills, but is still pretty upset about the whole thing and not dealing well with having their dreams crushed.
The rogue detective's older brother asked him/her to help the party as a favor, but the brother is now being a stinky buttpimple about the whole thing.



I'm hesitant to supply the rationale you're requesting for your character, because I strongly agree with other posters who have pointed out that this is a game from which you should walk. However, that said...

Your character has pissed off the wrong people. That could be the mob, the local authorities, a powerful spellcaster, the church, or whatever works for you story-wise. You put that high Charisma to work with mundane disguises, bluffs, perform (acting), and so on to go deep, deep, DEEP undercover. Even your own party doesn't know your true identity. Instead of being the "skulking around" stealthy type, you are the "hide in plain sight" stealthy type.


1: Sit your brother down with out the other problem player around. Make sure he understands that while you are going to make best effort here, if this get's screwed up, you are not taking responsibility for that on the grounds that, frankly, the only reason you are still here is to try and, as best as your currently able, help him out. Make sure he understands this, and make sure he is committed to the fact that it's not your fault if this goes south. (I firmly suspect it will but you should act like it has a chance. Will make it harder to blame you or scape goat you that way.)

Have reliable witnesses that he will listen too for this conversation. That's important if this DOES go south so that he can't conveniently forget what all was said and that he committed to the not your fault part.

2: Offer to be group historian. Record the sessions. Audio should do but if you can swing it video is better. Say this is to help make sure you can quickly take notes later while minimizing slowing the game down. Keep certain notes for things like NPC's, loot that isn't currently claimed by one person exclusively, one or two other things of that nature. They don't have to be fantastic, just enough to justify the recording device.

Now, when this falls apart, show it to the people you had play witness in 1, and have them and you tell your brother that this was not your fault, it was *insert name of at fault party or party's here* fault. Hopefully this will hammer it home to him that you did everything you could and more then was reasonable to ask and if he needs to be mad at someone, you are not that someone.




3: Now to the in character stuff.

Invest in craft poison making and having a tone of blades. Both fit the concept, having a dozen or more concealed weapons to throw/stab/cut/hit with in different fashions hidden about your person and using poison cause you don't believe in a fair fight.

Make poisons that will defiantly kill your character if she got hit with them.

Apply them constantly, and always roll that percential die.

Have a lower then 10 Wisdom Score.

Congrats, you justified killing your character by rolling badly 1 time and it was in character so you can't be blamed.




Roll up a Vigilante, Inquisitor, Alchemist, or if Dreamscarred Press is on the table consider a Stalker or Soul Knife.



All this stuff really helps. I think I can come up with something. As for why he doesn't want me to change characters... it's a story thing. The way the story is set up shoehorning in a new character will be extremely hard

[Metahuman1]

Frankly, that just tells me that he's a sub par DM.

[weckar]

All this stuff really helps. I think I can come up with something. As for why he doesn't want me to change characters... it's a story thing. The way the story is set up shoehorning in a new character will be extremely hard
It wouldn't be a shoehorn as much as a retcon. You were playing that character all along.

[Kish]

Also I agree when you guys say I should walk but I wont be doing that. If this campaign goes down in flames I don't want it to be my fault. Mine and my brother's relationship isn't as solid as I would like it to be and backing out of this game now will only hurt it. I can take the bullying and abuse it's not like it's going to last forever.
...what?

"I know what I should do, but I won't do it. If I let myself be pushed out by the people who are effectively conspiring to push me out and have flatly refused to stop, I will place 100% of the blame for the game collapsing on myself, not on them. I want to have a better relationship with one of the people who's actively making the game not-fun for me and think being a doormat is the way to accomplish that. That the group deliberately craps on me is unimportant even though I keep coming here and asking what to do about it."

...what?

[EightBitEngine]

My brother ended up letting me play the goblin character after all. With no reason to compete with me Captain "I'm a spell-caster and also a rogue!" had no choice but to play nice. He was a little passive aggressive at first but once it became clear that we all were going to ignore his comments he stopped making them and just played. Everyone else is irritated by his attitude also but like I said he is no longer arguing with anyone or stopping the game until he gets his way so we are all having fun again.

I really appreciate all the help guys.

I would like to thank these people the most as they helped the most.


Pleh
Grod_The_Giant
Jsketchy
Dagroth
Blu
Metahuman1
Darrin


All of these Users had excellent suggestions even if I didn't end up using them.

[Blu]

You're welcome, have fun and hope you can be closer to your brother.
But be on guard with the player anyway. Good luck

[EightBitEngine]

You're welcome, have fun and hope you can be closer to your brother.
But be on guard with the player anyway. Good luck

Thank you.

[Metahuman1]

My brother ended up letting me play the goblin character after all. With no reason to compete with me Captain "I'm a spell-caster and also a rogue!" had no choice but to play nice. He was a little passive aggressive at first but once it became clear that we all were going to ignore his comments he stopped making them and just played. Everyone else is irritated by his attitude also but like I said he is no longer arguing with anyone or stopping the game until he gets his way so we are all having fun again.

I really appreciate all the help guys.

I would like to thank these people the most as they helped the most.


Pleh
Grod_The_Giant
Jsketchy
Dagroth
Blu
Metahuman1
Darrin


All of these Users had excellent suggestions even if I didn't end up using them.

You are most welcome, and I'm happy I could be of some help. I hope relations with your brother improve, and that the problem player ceases to be a problem player. (I'd have a plan B for him just in case though.).

If you ever nee more help, the playground is always here!

[Calthropstu]

Brothers are jerks.
Seriously, walk away is the best advice.