Homebrew tweaks to Agonizing Blast

[Captain Morgan]

So we all know Agonizing Eldritch Blasts tends to be the bread and butter for your average Warlock in combat, and it's balanced by the classes limited spell slots. I have a few problems with this though.

1) Too good for multiclassing. 2 levels being all you need to suddenly shoot anyone's at will damage up makes it really easy to poach the Warlock's shtick.

2) Too much of a staple. In any campaign with sufficiently deadly or frequent encounters you would be shooting yourself in the foot not to take it. (That's without even looking at repelling blast.) This is a problem because...

3) Too few invocations. Especially at early levels-- the progression for the first 4 levels of play is particularly slow for gaining more invocations. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of really fun goodies for providing utility, as well as a lot of neat things to help in combat. It feels like Warlocks, especially BladeLocks, have a hard time justifying these toys.

Now, I don't have a ton of 5e experience and I could see an argument that a warlock should have to choose between combat and utility the same way one makes the choice between being a Fighter or a Bard. Never the less, I feel like some tweaking might be useful.

My idea is baking Agonizing Blast into the normal class progression somehow. The simplest fix I can think of is changing Eldritch Blast from a cantrip to an at will ability that scales with your Warlock level and adds CHA to damage from the beginning. It could otherwise remain the same, but people would have an invocation and a cantrip freed up.

Does this seem like it would be problematic? Would that cement people to Eldritch blast when it was technically possible before to not take it at all? If we are doing this, should the damage be adjusted for any particular levels to balance against other classes?

[Desamir]

Does this seem like it would be problematic?

In my opinion, no.


Would that cement people to Eldritch blast when it was technically possible before to not take it at all?

Technically, but it's not like Warlocks were skipping it before.


If we are doing this, should the damage be adjusted for any particular levels to balance against other classes?

Doubtful. Extra invocations and cantrips buy a little bit of extra utility, that's about it. I personally think Warlocks need more utility, so that's a good thing.

[Malifice]

So we all know Agonizing Eldritch Blasts tends to be the bread and butter for your average Warlock in combat, and it's balanced by the classes limited spell slots. I have a few problems with this though.

1) Too good for multiclassing. 2 levels being all you need to suddenly shoot anyone's at will damage up makes it really easy to poach the Warlock's shtick.

2) Too much of a staple. In any campaign with sufficiently deadly or frequent encounters you would be shooting yourself in the foot not to take it. (That's without even looking at repelling blast.) This is a problem because...

3) Too few invocations. Especially at early levels-- the progression for the first 4 levels of play is particularly slow for gaining more invocations. Which is a shame, because there are a lot of really fun goodies for providing utility, as well as a lot of neat things to help in combat. It feels like Warlocks, especially BladeLocks, have a hard time justifying these toys.

Now, I don't have a ton of 5e experience and I could see an argument that a warlock should have to choose between combat and utility the same way one makes the choice between being a Fighter or a Bard. Never the less, I feel like some tweaking might be useful.

My idea is baking Agonizing Blast into the normal class progression somehow. The simplest fix I can think of is changing Eldritch Blast from a cantrip to an at will ability that scales with your Warlock level and adds CHA to damage from the beginning. It could otherwise remain the same, but people would have an invocation and a cantrip freed up.

Does this seem like it would be problematic? Would that cement people to Eldritch blast when it was technically possible before to not take it at all? If we are doing this, should the damage be adjusted for any particular levels to balance against other classes?

Agonising blast allows you to add your warlock level to the damage of one of your eldritch blasts.

[Ziegander]

Eldritch Blast deals 1d10 force damage that improves to 2d10 at 5th, 3d10 at 11th, and 4d10 at 17th. It has no reason to allow multiple blasts with multiple iterations of Cha to damage. Make it a class feature starting at level 1 that improves with warlock class levels.

Add Cha to damage at Warlock level 6.

Make splitting the Eldritch Blast an invocation. Required level 7th.

Make Repelling Blast also required level 7th.

Profit.

[Deadandamnation]

I totally agree with you i'd change It that way:

1) Agonizing Blast invocation: removed
2) Eldritch Blast: changed from cantrip to Warlock special ability usabile 1+cha mod times/short rest.
3) EB base damage changed to 2d8. (+2d8 @lvl 5 and so on)
4) No longer iteration from hex and from cha.

That's the start

[Maxilian]

I totally agree with you i'd change It that way:

1) Agonizing Blast invocation: removed
2) Eldritch Blast: changed from cantrip to Warlock special ability usabile 1+cha mod times/short rest.
3) EB base damage changed to 2d8. (+2d8 @lvl 5 and so on)
4) No longer iteration from hex and from cha.

That's the start

You would need to give the Warlock something else then, you can't just take their main at will ability and say "Done"

Note: OP, what you pointed out won't brake anything.

[Deadandamnation]

You would need to give the Warlock something else then, you can't just take their main at will ability and say "Done"

Note: OP, what you pointed out won't brake anything.

I havn't say 'that's all' folks' but it could bè a starting Point.

You Can anyway try It as an at Will Power that scale as Warlock gains levels.

The problem that EB have Is that with Just a 2 level dip a paladin Is good at blasting with It as a Warlock. A sorcerer instead Is more powerful than a full progression Warlock as he Can quicken It with, as Always, 'just 2 level dip'.

I think that I'll work on It homebrewing the class entirely. Since It deserve a whole dedicated post.

[jaappleton]

If your problem is people dipping Warlock 2, then make it tied to Warlock level instead of character level.

That's it.

[Millstone85]

If your problem is people dipping Warlock 2, then make it tied to Warlock level instead of character level.

That's it.Do you think this could be made into a general cantrip rule? Scaling with class level instead of character level.

[gfishfunk]

See the homebrew in my signature for more info, but the basics:

1. agonizing blast is available at level 5 instead of immediately. This massively cuts down on 2 level dips and highly disturbs caster progression. I think this marches warlock design concept.

2. It applies once per enemy hit. This changes the feel: less good against single target and much better versus crowds.

3. Change to Eldritch Blast: now it does 1d8 on second blast, 1d6 on t third, and 1d4 on forth. The Warlock can specialize in Eldritch Blast to get 1d10 on each blast.

[Captain Morgan]

Seems like Eldritch Blast is the only cantrip it's an issue with. None of the others get nearly as powerful. But if you made EB not at will or removed the CHA to damage on multiple hits you are left with a significantly weaker Lock, which seems rather unfair to a class that gets so few spell slots between rests, and doesn't have another resource pool like metamagic or bardic inspiration to employ.

Adding Warlock level to damage instead of CHA isn't a terrible idea I suppose. I think it would need some tweaks to make sure you weren't applying it to a ray that missed or crits, as that would defeat the purpose of at will CONSISTENT damage. Also would mean your damage would be behind at most levels, and you'd have less flexibility for splitting it between multiple targets. I don't love it.

[gfishfunk]

Seems like Eldritch Blast is the only cantrip it's an issue with. None of the others get nearly as powerful. But if you made EB not at will or removed the CHA to damage on multiple hits you are left with a significantly weaker Lock, which seems rather unfair to a class that gets so few spell slots between rests, and doesn't have another resource pool like metamagic or bardic inspiration to employ.

Adding Warlock level to damage instead of CHA isn't a terrible idea I suppose. I think it would need some tweaks to make sure you weren't applying it to a ray that missed or crits, as that would defeat the purpose of at will CONSISTENT damage. Also would mean your damage would be behind at most levels, and you'd have less flexibility for splitting it between multiple targets. I don't love it.

I prefer to also pump up or areas. For example, immediately gain one spell slot back once per short rest when you roll initiative and have no spell slots available.

But if you get this feature, you cannot specialize in Eldritch Blast.

[Arcangel4774]

3. Change to Eldritch Blast: now it does 1d8 on second blast, 1d6 on t third, and 1d4 on forth. The Warlock can specialize in Eldritch Blast to get 1d10 on each blast.

If somebody wants to stop the dip, take this idea but only have those dice fall off when/if the Warlock levels themselves can't account for the cantrips scaling.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I have no problem with agonizing blast as is.

HP damage is not a concern and MC is DM dependent...

Make invocations better and people won't just grab agonizing blast all the time.

[gfishfunk]

If somebody wants to stop the dip, take this idea but only have those dice fall off when/if the Warlock levels themselves can't account for the cantrips scaling.

I have it keyed in on my homebrew at turning on level 7.

[gfishfunk]

Make invocations better and people won't just grab agonizing blast all the time.

I think they are good as is, just less obvious. If you give them more spaced out Eldritch Blast stuff, they will play around with others and see how good they are.

[jaappleton]

Changing Agonizing to a lv5 requirement is a solid way to go, I think. Because now you're a 5th level Warlock. You're not dipping anymore. That's an investment, and at my table, when you MC, there needs to be a story reason for it. It has to fit for a reason besides "I want to do ____".

For example: I made a Hexblade (my second now, my first died) as a Protector Aasimar. At character level 6, I'm going to consider going into the new Favored Soul Sorc. I reflavored my Hexblade Patron as a Solar, simply changing the names of some abilities. I'm his mortal agent, my golden greatsword and abilities are a manifestation of its power. So at lv6, I'm going to choose between getting more magical prowess (by going FS Sorc) or maintaining a melee focus by staying Hexblade and eventually getting Hexblade's armor, better regeneration when I kill my Hex Curse target, etc.

[Steampunkette]

Here's how I would change it:

I wouldn't.

Yeah, it's great for a two level dip. So what? Lots of things are great for a two level dip. That's the problem with a Class-based system that has to front-load abilities so that players have a certain level of power straight out of the gate. You're not going to be able to "Fix" that without nerfing every class to some degree and moving their early abilities until later into their progression. WotC -finally- realized this and made Multiclassing an Optional rather than Core rule.

If I -HAD- to change it? I'd make it part of the class progression, add Cha to each missile, and otherwise leave it as is. Yeah, 1d10+Cha four times is stronger than other Cantrips, but if it's part of the Class it's a core part of the class's baseline power progression and isn't beholden to standard cantrip rules.

Moving Agonizing Blast to level 5, making the damage drop off, or applying Charisma only once to the damage is too much of a nerf, in my opinion. The party Wizard doesn't have to rely on her Cantrips nearly as much as the Warlock does because in any given fight she'll have access to a lot more spells. The warlock, though, needs Cantrips to survive.

[Millstone85]

I think I will side with Steampunkette.

[gfishfunk]

I agree that steampunkette makes good points, but the damage progression is not necessary and the Warlock simply chooses other things instead that add other utility.

If we agree that agonizing blast is not needed (though nice) then it is not a penalty to push back it's availability. It's merely forcing different early level options.

[Captain Morgan]

To be clear, I am less concerned with the multiclass thing than the loss of utility in it taking up a cantrip and an invocation. I agree the Warlock needs AB/EB to be balanced against the other casters and I don't want to nerf it's damage. I only brought up tweaking damage because I'm not familiar with DPR across different classes and levels.

I just think the Warlock would be more fun if they didn't have to sacrifice neat utility options to maintain combat parity.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

You can't dip 2 levels into warlock without repercussions, you have made a deal a with a powerful entity after all, it has plans for you

I mean who would train a warlock if they knew that they where not going higher then lv2?

"See ya"

"Where do you think your going?"

"You taught me Agonizing Blast, that is all I really wanted"

"If you stay a little longer, I can show you how to summon a magical blade"

"Na I'm good"

"How about a book that can hold every ritual in the world?"

"Meh"

"A really cool familiar?"

"I don't feel like it"

"Well don't you want better spell slots?"

"Meh, I am already a sorcerer, and a paladin as a matter of fact"

"Your a Paladin? Why did you deity let you strike a bargain with me The Lord of the Nine Hells?"

"His aliment is neutral as is mine"

"You son of a gnome!!!!"


Later

"Hello I would like to apply for warlock powers"

"The Lord of the Nine Hells appreciates your interest, could you please answer the following questions?"

"Ummm... Sure"

"Are you know or have you ever a been a Sorcerer?"

"No"

"Do you have any holy quests that conflict with with our agenda here, directly or indirectly"

"Not really"

"Are you proficient with any musical instrument, magical or otherwise"

"I played the recorder in 4h grade"

"I'm Sorry sir, but we no longer admit those with the potential to be bards anymore, the exit is the second door on the left"

Basically if you are worried about power dipping into warlock, ban power dipping into warlock

[gfishfunk]

I'm not as concerned with a 2 level dip. I'm concerned with a 2 level dip being better at Warlock than warlock. A lock 2 / Bard or sorcerer X can do just as good an Eldritch Blast with better spell slot casting. They should get core features at a 2 level dip but not get the best stuff.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

To be clear, I am less concerned with the multiclass thing than the loss of utility in it taking up a cantrip and an invocation. I agree the Warlock needs AB/EB to be balanced against the other casters and I don't want to nerf it's damage. I only brought up tweaking damage because I'm not familiar with DPR across different classes and levels.

I just think the Warlock would be more fun if they didn't have to sacrifice neat utility options to maintain combat parity.

More invocations can always be awarded for competing tasks your patron has given you ( I.E. what ever quest you were already going to do, instead of some gold, you get another invocation )

[Ruslan]

If your problem is that Agonizing Blast is too good for multiclassing, just change the damage bonus to be "your Charisma bonus or your Warlock level, whichever is less".

Single-classed Warlocks will barely notice the change (it only matters around levels 2-3), but the Warlock 2 dip is suddenly a lot less attractive.

[jaappleton]

More invocations can always be awarded for competing tasks your patron has given you ( I.E. what ever quest you were already going to do, instead of some gold, you get another invocation )

Gaining a bonus Invocation here or there for completing goals for your Patron seems like a great way to do that.

[gfishfunk]

More invocations can always be awarded for competing tasks your patron has given you ( I.E. what ever quest you were already going to do, instead of some gold, you get another invocation )


Gaining a bonus Invocation here or there for completing goals for your Patron seems like a great way to do that.

Yeah, I'm stealing that idea for my ongoing campaign.

[jaappleton]

Yeah, I'm stealing that idea for my ongoing campaign.

Good, because I hope to get my DM to go along with it for my Warlock :smallbiggrin:

[rollingForInit]

Remove Eldritch Blast as a cantrip, add it as a class feature, where the number of rays scale with Warlock levels. The only thing this affects is multiclassing, really. Feels like the cleanest way to do it, without changing how it works for characters that invest themselves in the Warlock class. You could still dip 3 levels in other classes and get the full EB at level 20.

Personally I don't mind dipping 2 levels for EB that much, but if I were to limit it, that's probably how I'd do it.

[Steampunkette]

See, THAT is a nifty idea.

It's right up there with Boons as rewards, just giving the player access to a selection of boons.

Love it.

[Matrix_Walker]

More invocations can always be awarded for competing tasks your patron has given you ( I.E. what ever quest you were already going to do, instead of some gold, you get another invocation )

That sounds like a great Boon for a 20th level character still in play for epic adventures!

Way to powerful to be throwing around otherwise.

[Desamir]

That sounds like a great Boon for a 20th level character still in play for epic adventures!

Way to powerful to be throwing around otherwise.

It's only as powerful as the worst invocations, which aren't that great.

[Steampunkette]

There's a difference between Boons and Epic Boons.

An extra Invocation, or one more Rage per day, or some similar increase of class-ability feels more like a Boon than an Epic Boon.

Now if it was an extra Spell Slot -THAT- would be an Epic Boon!

[Captain Morgan]

I like the idea of extra invocations fras rewards from the patron, or as tools needed to complete a quest. Lots of them are too niche for the average adventuring party but would make sense as a specific gift.

I'm not sure it's a good fix for my concern though, which is a Warlock sacrificing fun/utility for function/combat. A patron should grant the Warlock a specific boon as a story line award IMO, and that's both unreliable and doesn't do anything to increase player choice. I think a character should be able to count on what their class choices provide rather than be waiting for possible additional handouts from the DM.

[Matrix_Walker]

There's a difference between Boons and Epic Boons.

An extra Invocation, or one more Rage per day, or some similar increase of class-ability feels more like a Boon than an Epic Boon.

Now if it was an extra Spell Slot -THAT- would be an Epic Boon!

Invocations can be At Will spells, pairs of skills with ribbons... I would say they are as good as a spell slot or better, and in fact specifically replace lower level spell slot gain for a Warlock.

An Invocation would be an Epic Boon IMHO.

[Steampunkette]

The "At Will" invocations are all level 1 or two spells and not particularly strong ones. Casting Mage Armor or Alter Self isn't going to have the same impact as an extra Fireball or Wave of Destruction.

Warlocks also don't HAVE "Lower Level" spell slots. They've got the spell slots they have at max level and that's all.

Invocations would be a Boon.

Epic boons are things like "Gain 40 more HP, permanently" and "Ignore all enemy Resistances" or "Gain another 9th level spell slot"

[Deleted]

I'm not as concerned with a 2 level dip. I'm concerned with a 2 level dip being better at Warlock than warlock. A lock 2 / Bard or sorcerer X can do just as good an Eldritch Blast with better spell slot casting. They should get core features at a 2 level dip but not get the best stuff.

Sadly, this seems to be a design choice for quite a few classes.

Fighter 2, Barbarian 2, Rogue 2, Warlock 2, and a few other classes are best as dips.

Plus they are easy to get into, have some sort of synergy, or instantly fills in holes that some other classes have.

[gfishfunk]

While that may be true to some extent, a 2 lock / X Bard is just as good or better than a full warlock at a lot of warlock stuff due to eat Eldritch blast progression.

Whereas a Fighter 2 / Anything X is not a better fighter than the fighter.

[Maxilian]

I havn't say 'that's all' folks' but it could bè a starting Point.

You Can anyway try It as an at Will Power that scale as Warlock gains levels.

The problem that EB have Is that with Just a 2 level dip a paladin Is good at blasting with It as a Warlock. A sorcerer instead Is more powerful than a full progression Warlock as he Can quicken It with, as Always, 'just 2 level dip'.

I think that I'll work on It homebrewing the class entirely. Since It deserve a whole dedicated post.

I do agree, sadly that's also one of my favorite things of the Warlock (MC 2 lvls into Warlock, allows you to do the less efficient MC and you will still viable as long as you took CHA as your main stat and took the +CHA to EB invocation)

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

Invocations can be At Will spells, pairs of skills with ribbons... I would say they are as good as a spell slot or better, and in fact specifically replace lower level spell slot gain for a Warlock.

An Invocation would be an Epic Boon IMHO.

The Dm can always choose to say that some invocations are not acceptable as treasure substitutes

[KnotaGuru]

Agonizing blast is fine. Any bow/crossbow user can deal more damage. If a caster dips into warlock for agonizing/repelling eldritch blast, so what. That 2 level dip delays casting progression and class features of the other class and that's gonna hurt. And if said caster is shooting eldritch blast that means they're not doing another more debilitating spell.

[Deleted]

While that may be true to some extent, a 2 lock / X Bard is just as good or better than a full warlock at a lot of warlock stuff due to eat Eldritch blast progression.

Whereas a Fighter 2 / Anything X is not a better fighter than the fighter.

Completely false.

The fighter "makes things dead with weapons" and Fighter 2/Barbarian 6, Fighter 2/Rogue 6, or Fighter 2/Paladin 6 (because games dont typically go past 8th level) are better fighters than the fighter as they have a ton more options than the fighter.

Especially the Rogue MC, no one uses Athletics or Acrobatics better than the Rogue. Slap shield master on that rogue and go to town. Can't grapple something? Climb thr creature at full speed with thief.

[gfishfunk]

Completely false.

The fighter "makes things dead with weapons" and Fighter 2/Barbarian 6, Fighter 2/Rogue 6, or Fighter 2/Paladin 6 (because games dont typically go past 8th level) are better fighters than the fighter as they have a ton more options than the fighter.

Especially the Rogue MC, no one uses Athletics or Acrobatics better than the Rogue. Slap shield master on that rogue and go to town. Can't grapple something? Climb thr creature at full speed with thief.

While I respect your opinion, I categorically disagree. Grappling and shoving are not the core fighter features in 5e. Neither is 'making things dead with weapons.'

If you could go 2 fighter / 18 rogue with 4 attacks per round and two extra ASI advancements, I would agree.

As you can go 2 Warlock / 18 Bard and gain 4 Eldritch Blasts per round, adding +Cha to damage on every Eldritch Blast bolt, pick up 1 extra invocation of your choice, and pick up many of the known warlock spells through bard magical secrets (using Lore Bard for a few extra if you really want), AND retain all but two casting levels on normal spell progression, I believe my point stands.

[Deleted]

While I respect your opinion, I categorically disagree. Grappling and shoving are not the core fighter features in 5e. Neither is 'making things dead with weapons.'
.

This is the core feature of the fighter class, it is really the only thing they CAN do well.

The other core feature of the Fighter is being able to attack and use maneuvers (basic maneuvers, not BM) on the same turn. Fighters are the worst at using Athletics of the three martial classes.

Barbarian gets advantage and Rogue gets Expertise.

There is nothing else that the Fighter (Class) gets.

Edit===

This isn't an opinion, this is a fact. The only thing the Fighter class does is "make things dead with weapons" and because of how they are designed they get limited in so many ways.

[Sabeta]

Dipping two levels comes with all the same problems that dipping two levels always come with. Delaying access to ASI's, Feats, Spell Progression, etc for something that a Fighter just does at level 1 doesn't seem overpowered. Just like dipping two levels for fighter to get Action Surge isn't op, or dipping Rogue for Expertise, or...well the list goes on.

It's a strong feature, but it doesn't break the game. Having access to 4 level 5 spell slots all on a short rest seems plenty strong for a class that also comes with the best cantrip in the game, the best ritual casting in the game, or the best familiar in the game. Warlock is fine as is, and people overvalue HP Damage in a game where the DM can (and should) adjust encounters to be interesting no matter how min/maxed you are.

My Frost Sorceress was incredible fun. She used Frostbite and Ray of Frost as her cantrips, she took Ice Dagger instead of Scorching Ray, and Snilloc's Snowball Storm instead of Fireball. I focused on disrupting the enemy's plans as frequently as possible, and it worked exceptionally well. I never once felt the urge to dip for EB because Frostbite was amazing damage mitigation, and did enough damage on its own thanks to Dragon's CHA bonus.

So I wouldn't change anything. I think Warlock is fine as is, and people overvalue direct damage way too much.

[gfishfunk]

This is the core feature of the fighter class, it is really the only thing they CAN do well.

The other core feature of the Fighter is being able to attack and use maneuvers (basic maneuvers, not BM) on the same turn. Fighters are the worst at using Athletics of the three martial classes.

Barbarian gets advantage and Rogue gets Expertise.

There is nothing else that the Fighter (Class) gets.

Edit===

This isn't an opinion, this is a fact. The only thing the Fighter class does is "make things dead with weapons" and because of how they are designed they get limited in so many ways.

Once again, I think you are taking too vaguely. The key feature of the class of fighter is making 4 attacks per round and gaining 2 additional ASI. The fighter also has a fighting style which is not unique to the class, and action surge which is. That is more specific than making things dead with weapons.

The core key features of Warlock are spell resets on a short rest, a single strong cantrips, and access to invocations. You get all of these on a two level dip, enough of which that you overshadow straight 20 warlocks sure to having the most powerful warlock signature features. You don't get warlock spell progression, but you do get full Bard or Sorcerer progression.

[Ziegander]

I agree the Warlock needs AB/EB to be balanced against the other casters and I don't want to nerf it's damage.

Am I the only one who feels like it's a failure of class design that without one cantrip and one invocation the Warlock class is imbalanced on the weak side? Because that's a huge part of my problem with the Warlock class in-general. Not necessarily that Agonizing Eldritch Blast is too powerful, but that the Warlock feels incomplete without those "options."

[jaappleton]

Am I the only one who feels like it's a failure of class design that without one cantrip and one invocation the Warlock class is imbalanced on the weak side? Because that's a huge part of my problem with the Warlock class in-general. Not necessarily that Agonizing Eldritch Blast is too powerful, but that the Warlock feels incomplete without those "options."

First, love your avatar. Very well done, that rules.

I sometimes feel as though the Warlock is both the best designed class, and the worst. It's so uniquely designed (relative to all the other classes) that it seems both excellent and lackluster at times.

[Deleted]

Once again, I think you are taking too vaguely. The key feature of the class of fighter is making 4 attacks per round and gaining 2 additional ASI. The fighter also has a fighting style which is not unique to the class, and action surge which is. That is more specific than making things dead with weapons.

The core key features of Warlock are spell resets on a short rest, a single strong cantrips, and access to invocations. You get all of these on a two level dip, enough of which that you overshadow straight 20 warlocks sure to having the most powerful warlock signature features. You don't get warlock spell progression, but you do get full Bard or Sorcerer progression.

Action Surge is gained at 2nd level, part of the dip, and isn't improved upon till 17th (or whatever). Hardly anyone plays at that level. Besides, making things dead (with weapons typically) doesn't require more action surge.

The reason why the fighter is being generalized is because the fighter is a general class that expects the character options to define it. Taking just what the class gives you and what you are left with is "make things dead with steel".

The fighter is a two level dip. You don't grow past that level (the subclasses are meh for a multitude of reasons, indomitable is almost useless, and you just learn to do the same thing at a higher level that you can do at a lower level... Yay?).

Oh, and feats aren't a class feature of the Fighter. ASI are a class feature of the fighter. You just happen to be able to turn those into feats if the DM allows you to. If the DM doesn't think the 6th level ASI should be turned into a feat, the DM can say "nope".


Am I the only one who feels like it's a failure of class design that without one cantrip and one invocation the Warlock class is imbalanced on the weak side? Because that's a huge part of my problem with the Warlock class in-general. Not necessarily that Agonizing Eldritch Blast is too powerful, but that the Warlock feels incomplete without those "options."

The Warlock has a lot of potential and I think, like many times in the past, Mike Mearles saw potential and got scared (look at his original Hex Blade in 3e). The Warlock is my second favorite arcane casting class but has my favorite casting scheme due to short rest casting (which I need to continue working on my Sorcerer that uses short rest casting and has the Warlock as a subclass...).

So, I think they scaled back a lot on the Warlock.

Even just changing...


Thief of Five Fates

You can cast bane once using a warlock spell slot. You can’t do so again until you finish a long rest.

to


Thief of Five Fates

You can cast bane using a warlock spell slot.

or


Thief of Five Fates

You can cast bane as a warlock spell once per short rest.

Would make a few invocations a lot more desirable.

[Deadandamnation]

The main problem of AB is that is too good to be ignored compared to many other invocations.

I agree that It 'just' pump out more dmg but if your goal is to bring utility to the party the Warlock isn't the best choice After all.

So in the end It feels to me as mandatory.

Adding It as core it's not a bad idea but when you give something you Need to rebalance it in some way.

[Dalebert]

1. agonizing blast is available at level 5 instead of immediately. This massively cuts down on 2 level dips and highly disturbs caster progression. I think this marches warlock design concept.

2. It applies once per enemy hit. This changes the feel: less good against single target and much better versus crowds.

3. Change to Eldritch Blast: now it does 1d8 on second blast, 1d6 on t third, and 1d4 on forth. The Warlock can specialize in Eldritch Blast to get 1d10 on each blast.

I feel like it's the wrong approach to nerf full warlocks in order to stop the trend of people dipping lock 2. If you do nerf EB, fix their crappy spell slots because that's why EB is so good. The designers KNOW they screwed locks on spell slots so they gave them the best dmg cantrip.

The first one isn't that bad. If you have a decent dex, you shouldn't take Agonizing Blast until 5th anyway when you get two EBs. During tier 1, you should just use a crossbow and save your invocations for fun stuff to make up for your crappy slots like Disguise Self at will and Silent Image at will. My kobold lock still doesn't have EB at level 4.

[gfishfunk]

I feel like it's the wrong approach to nerf full warlocks in order to stop the trend of people dipping lock 2. If you do nerf EB, fix their crappy spell slots because that's why EB is so good. The designers KNOW they screwed locks on spell slots so they gave them the best dmg cantrip.

The first one isn't that bad. If you have a decent dex, you shouldn't take Agonizing Blast until 5th anyway when you get two EBs. During tier 1, you should just use a crossbow and save your invocations for fun stuff to make up for your crappy slots like Disguise Self at will and Silent Image at will. My kobold lock still doesn't have EB at level 4.

My redesign is a part of rewriting all classes. Since everything is getting changed a lot, it's not a big deal for nerfing - and focused warlocks rarely feel the nerf as the high level Eldritch blast changes are neutralized through internal warlock features that restore Eldritch blast.

One of my other "fixes" is to offer an additional spell slot once per day... If you roll initiative and have no spell slots remaining. That feature is incompatible with the Eldritch Blast progression. That way, you are good at Eldritch Blast or additional spell casting.