Ideas messing with CON

[DanyBallon]

I don't remember well my 2e days so I can't say for sure if it was the case or not, but at least since 3.P I've always thought that it was weird that all mages are as fit and have a high CON score as most fighters. I've always imagine wizards as frail creatures that spent years studying the arcanes neglecting their bodies in the search for more power.

I completly understand that from a gaming standpoint, boosting CON is almost a must, as more HP means your character will survive longer, and nobody wants to see their character die. I must admit, I'm doing it almost all the time!!!
But still, it feels weird to me.

So I got that weird idea, what if the bonus to HP, wasn't part of the Constitution ability score description, but was instead a new feature that Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Ranger and Paladin would get (and maybe other classes specific archetype as well i.e. War cleric)?

Such a change would make non martial a bit more frail, closing partialy the gap between magic users and martials. All other constitution features will still be relevant. But it wont be a must have for non martial classes and will make them less MAD.

What do you think?

And in line for a grittier feel, what if there was a damage treshold, where you would fall unconsious for 1d4 if you lose more HP than your CON score and fail a CON save with DC = exceeding damage above CON score?

I think using a varying DC would lessen the impact of this change as even 10 CON character, should be able to sustain a 15 damage blow without falling uncounsious (DC 5)

And at the other end of the spectrum, a barbarian with 20 CON should be able to stay up after being hit by a single blow that chipped away 35 of its HP (DC 15, but with a +5 and proficiency to CON saves it lowers down the effective DC)

Again, would you allow this?

[Ninja_Prawn]

This idea is not for me. Perhaps it could work at your table, but in my experience the system is fine as-is.

In particular, I object to the starting premise of:
all mages are as fit and endurant as most fighterAnd not just because the word is durable.

I am playing in/running three games with normal character creation rules right now, and the average max HP totals are:

A Faerie Affair
Martials and half-casters: 36
Casters: 16.7

Ansalonian Adventures
Martials and half-casters: 24
Casters: 13.3

Crimson Ashes
Martials and half-casters: 44.7
Casters: 34

So in actual practice, I find martials do end up more durable, by about 30-100%. There's no need for a 'fix'.

[DanyBallon]

This idea is not for me. Perhaps it could work at your table, but in my experience the system is fine as-is.

In particular, I object to the starting premise of: And not just because the word is durable.

I am playing in/running three games with normal character creation rules right now, and the average max HP totals are:

A Faerie Affair
Martials and half-casters: 36
Casters: 16.7

Ansalonian Adventures
Martials and half-casters: 24
Casters: 13.3

Crimson Ashes
Martials and half-casters: 44.7
Casters: 34

So in actual practice, I find martials do end up more durable. There's no need for a 'fix'.

It's not a fix, as like you said, the system works great as it is. I'm looking only for a change, so Wizards and the like don't all have 18 CON :smallwink:
That's what I find absurd

P.S. It was early this morning, and I believe I let too much of my native language transpire, I didn't mean "enduran" or durable, but mostly having a constiturion score as high as martials. And the reason they are doing so is only for the HP bonus. I'll update my post accordingly

[MrMcBobb]

It's already fairly well balanced out in that manner by using different hit dice. Wizards are frail (or at least not big and tough) so have lower hit dice. I also quite like the idea of being able to create a reasonably hardy wizard. We had a half-orc wizard with high con in one of my games and he was actually pretty excellent. You'd be surprised how useful it is to be a half-orc caster (relentless endurance is amazing).

[DanyBallon]

It's already fairly well balanced out in that manner by using different hit dice. Wizards are frail (or at least not big and tough) so have lower hit dice. I also quite like the idea of being able to create a reasonably hardy wizard. We had a half-orc wizard with high con in one of my games and he was actually pretty excellent. You'd be surprised how useful it is to be a half-orc caster (relentless endurance is amazing).

I don't mind having exceptions, but it's not the case. Actually having high CON score is the norm for caster. They already upped the HD from d4 to d6 in order to have them less squishy than they were. And for those who are looking for more HP there's still the Tough feat.
Bit I agree that Relentless endurance is nice for a caster :smallbiggrin:

[MrMcBobb]

I don't mind havng exceptions, but it's not the case. Actually having high CON score is the norm for caster.

For me that's a problem with the SAD lay-out of casters, they compete with Heavy Armour Fighters for the least MAD builds (and even then are way more versatile). Wiz and Sorc only need one Attribute so can pump two really high and while it might be nice and flavourful to have a wise sorcerer or a charismatic wizard it's generally more beneficial to take CON.

Your solution for the concentration style KO dice rolls (not sure what you called it in the first post) is that wizards and sorcerers already have high con, so that will just buff high con casters, not make them less common. I think nerfing hit-dice back to d4 would be the easiest way to go about it, but due to armour constraints as well as little hit-dice Wizards are already pretty squishy.

[DanyBallon]

For me that's a problem with the SAD lay-out of casters, they compete with Heavy Armour Fighters for the least MAD builds (and even then are way more versatile). Wiz and Sorc only need one Attribute so can pump two really high and while it might be nice and flavourful to have a wise sorcerer or a charismatic wizard it's generally more beneficial to take CON.

Hence my reason to remove bonus HP from CON. Now caster will get high CON score to resist CON saves or if my second option is in effect.

I fear that reducing d6 to d4 will just increase even more the need for high CON score for casters...

I don't really wnt to nerf the casters, but I would like to find a solution where they aren't so much dependent on high CON just to get more HP. I tough that my option was also giving something nice and shinny only to the martials, as there's many complains that casters get all the best stuff.


Your solution for the concentration style KO dice rolls (not sure what you called it in the first post) is that wizards and sorcerers already have high con, so that will just buff high con casters, not make them less common. I think nerfing hit-dice back to d4 would be the easiest way to go about it, but due to armour constraints as well as little hit-dice Wizards are already pretty squishy.

This option was not to reduce high CON caster, only to have a grittier feel. It may or may not be applied with the previous rule change.

[MrMcBobb]

It seems like you're trying to do multiple things with this and it keeps clashing (in my head anyway, but that's possibly because I just don't get it :smallfrown: )

Your original gripe (as I saw it) was high CON casters. Are you trying to reduce the number of high CON casters? If so why buff CON by adding that KO mechanic?

Are you trying to reduce casters HP (by removing CON bonus adding to your HP)? If so then why no just reduce the hit dice? You've said that lower hit dice just means more reliance on CON but the KO mechanic places loads of emphasis on CON (perhaps more than reduced hit die)

Sorry if I seem overly critical, I'm just going in circles trying to understand. :/

If you're going for a grittier feel then I say have a session with your players and play test it, because it seems like a cool concept. Adding stuff like that might screw your martial classes more than it does your casters though, so be careful.

If you're trying to lower the CON scores of your players casters then reward players who do that with RP opportunities or throw more enemies that trigger WIS / INT / CHA saves so that casters start putting more energy and time into fortifying their mind. :smallsmile:

[Naanomi]

Adventuring is a tough life, you are getting attacked for a living! Toughens someone up (or rather only the tough survive?). The only builds I see with less than 14 CON are either weirdly multiclassed or unusually focused (with the exception of Lore Bard skill monkeys who don't want to neglect INT and/or WIS), at that fits my conception of adventuring life pretty well

[Stan]

I don't remember well my 2e days so I can't say for sure if it was the case or not, but at least since 3.P I've always thought that it was weird that all mages are as fit and have a high CON score as most fighters. I've always imagine wizards as frail creatures that spent years studying the arcanes neglecting their bodies in the search for more power.


Wizards are already rather frail compared to fighters and barbarians due to hit die differences and class features like damage resistance and heavy armor. You're also looking at a biased sample with PC adventurers. The wizards with 8 Con mostly decided to stick with an academic setting. (Unless they also had low Wis, then they probably died on their first adventure.)

I think the rules already accomplish what you're trying to do without taking away Con's main function.

[DanyBallon]

It seems like you're trying to do multiple things with this and it keeps clashing (in my head anyway, but that's possibly because I just don't get it :smallfrown: )

Your original gripe (as I saw it) was high CON casters. Are you trying to reduce the number of high CON casters? If so why buff CON by adding that KO mechanic?

Are you trying to reduce casters HP (by removing CON bonus adding to your HP)? If so then why no just reduce the hit dice? You've said that lower hit dice just means more reliance on CON but the KO mechanic places loads of emphasis on CON (perhaps more than reduced hit die)

Sorry if I seem overly critical, I'm just going in circles trying to understand. :/

If you're going for a grittier feel then I say have a session with your players and play test it, because it seems like a cool concept. Adding stuff like that might screw your martial classes more than it does your casters though, so be careful.

If you're trying to lower the CON scores of your players casters then reward players who do that with RP opportunities or throw more enemies that trigger WIS / INT / CHA saves so that casters start putting more energy and time into fortifying their mind. :smallsmile:

The 2 options are completely separated and each must be considered as stand alone.

In option 1, I'm trying to reduce high CON casters as I find it absurd. Because the only reason players, myself include, put a high stat in their caster character is to benefit from the HP boost, nothing else. Hence my reasoning to remove HP bonus from CON score and instead give it to some classes as part of a feature. I'm not looking to reduce HP from casters, only that I haven't come up with a better solution yet.

Option 2 is to give a grittier feel, by having massive damage possibluy knocking out character. I went with a variable DC in order to still give a chance for low CON score character not to be KO every round or so. I haven't played enough high level games to see if there's many creature that can deal more than 20-40 damage in a single shot (on a 10 CON character 20 damage means a save DC of 10, and 40 damage is mostly the same for a martial character that might have 20 CON and proficiency in CON saves)

[Naanomi]

If you are set on doing this I'd also separate concentration from CON

[DanyBallon]

If you are set on doing this I'd also separate concentration from CON

You've got a point! I didn't thought about concentration check...

[Deleted]

Well, to be fair, if you know what and how much to eat and you get some exercise (running away from enemies... Or things you created) you will have a pretty darn gpod Constitution for activities.

Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers could still be eating properly, or even better than the barbarian/fighter, and thus have a better con score.

This is one of the reasons why a majority of athletes from today would absolutely destroy a majority of athletes from 10, 20, or more years ago in physical contes (exceptions exist... Freaks of nature are real... LeBron James is a modern day version of this).

So, there is really no reason to say a wizard wouldnt have a good con score. They are all about intelligence and nutrition can be right up there on their daily to do list.

PCs are special, maybe not all wizards have a good Con but the PC wizard does.

[Naanomi]

Objectively it is probably even more weird that most arcane casters have 14-20 Dexterity as well...

[Deleted]

Objectively it is probably even more weird that most arcane casters have 14-20 Dexterity as well...

To bad we aren't all playing a fantasy game that doesn't simulate real life!

I'm pretty "bookish" and I'm quite dexterous without training for it. Not sure why a fantasy wizard wouldn't be used to dodging when spells and stuff go bad.

[Naanomi]

To bad we aren't all playing a fantasy game that doesn't simulate real life!

I'm pretty "bookish" and I'm quite dexterous without training for it. Not sure why a fantasy wizard wouldn't be used to dodging when spells and stuff go bad.
I don't think either are out or sort for an adventuring spell caster... but if we are calling attention to Con seeming weird, certainly Dex should be equally so. I see your traditional 'fantasy wizard' as being tough from channeling all those arcane forces, but not particularly acrobatic or a great shot with the sling per se

[DanyBallon]

Objectively it is probably even more weird that most arcane casters have 14-20 Dexterity as well...

Definitely! But I didn't want to face this challenge for the moment :smallbiggrin:


Well, to be fair, if you know what and how much to eat and you get some exercise (running away from enemies... Or things you created) you will have a pretty darn gpod Constitution for activities.

Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers could still be eating properly, or even better than the barbarian/fighter, and thus have a better con score.

This is one of the reasons why a majority of athletes from today would absolutely destroy a majority of athletes from 10, 20, or more years ago in physical contes (exceptions exist... Freaks of nature are real... LeBron James is a modern day version of this).

So, there is really no reason to say a wizard wouldnt have a good con score. They are all about intelligence and nutrition can be right up there on their daily to do list.

PCs are special, maybe not all wizards have a good Con but the PC wizard does.

Agreed!
But it all depend on what kind of fantasy game you play in. It's just me, but I my fantasy settings (including Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms) are closer to our historical Middle-Age on which magic was added. In regard to this, access to good meal is not that common prior to an adventuring carreer. Good food is only available to the wealthy and even then it's not as good as it is today.
Again caster having high CON being problematic is only a perception. The system work fine as is and fit most ideas of a fantasy setting. I'm just trying to find ideas to reflect a more medieval setting where nutrition isn't as good as now it is.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Again caster having high CON being problematic is only a perception. The system work fine as is and fit most ideas of a fantasy setting.

Yup. HP are abstract and CON doesn't have to be represented the same way for all characters either. Adding extra HP punishment for "wimpy" classes is unnecessary. If they invest in CON they get what CON does mechanically.

[DanyBallon]

I'm starting to realize that the perception also boiled down to what is consider average.

Using the commoner for baseline, I'd say that a score of 10 is being average, while a score or 8 is being bad without being inapt, and a score of 12 is for someone who is very good. Anything beyond 12 is exceptionnal stuff so having a 14 in a stat means that you are on par with a professional that is really good in is field (sports, academic, acting, etc.) and having 16 is those exceptionnals that even put to shame other of their trades (Nobel prize, World recordman, etc.) Anything beyond 16 is where fantasy kicks in and allow your character to do stuff beyond what is humanly possible!

But this is only how I see it, and it's highly debatable.

EDIT: As far as it goes option 1 doesn't seems to be really popular :smallbiggrin: What about option 2?

[Deleted]

Yup. HP are abstract and CON doesn't have to be represented the same way for all characters either. Adding extra HP punishment for "wimpy" classes is unnecessary. If they invest in CON they get what CON does mechanically.

HP isn't even just endurance or meat, no matter what setting you put HP in, while using 5e rules HP is more than just how much endurance you have.

It's also luck. It's also how easy you are to kill.

A Wizard has high HP because they are hard to kill, is lucky, or has good endurance.

HP should be based on more than just Con. Honestly, way too many people don't pay attention to the mechanics of what HP is.

Each ability score can work for HP.

"Hit Points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile. A creature’s current hit points (usually just called hit points) can be any number from the creature’s hit point maximum down to 0. This number changes frequently as a creature takes damage or receives healing. Whenever a creature takes damage, that damage is subtracted from its hit points. The loss of hit points has no effect on a creature’s capabilities until the creature drops to 0 hit points."