Splatbook what is the "ultimate challenge"?

[etrpgb]

What do you think is the ultimate challenge for a level 20 group? In the SRD was meant to be the Tarrasque, but it soon become clear that it is ridiculous: sure it has tons of HP (and Toughness feat to boot!), but it's so slow that the characters can easily dance around it and defeat it. That's even without abusing some weakness like Ability Drain.

Do the authors made some other monster meant to be a "ultimate challenge"? What do you think?


(I am aware it's hard to imagine what the author were thinking, dnd3 is a pile of nonsensical illogical mess. Just give your guess.)

[Morcleon]

A Loredrake Great Wyrm Dragon (of some types) is an epic level caster. That's definitely enough of a challenge if properly made for whatever group will be fighting them.

[Lans]

A Loredrake Great Wyrm Dragon (of some types) is an epic level caster. That's definitely enough of a challenge if properly made for whatever group will be fighting them.

I think steel has the best casting

[Dagroth]

A Loredrake Great Wyrm Dragon (of some types) is an epic level caster. That's definitely enough of a challenge if properly made for whatever group will be fighting them.

If you go this route, make sure you read the entire Draconomicon... All of it. Pay special attention to the stuff about Lairs.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Elder evils, demon princes, the dukes of the Nine Hells, their [good] equivalents in an [evil] campaign. Anything with a name and CR > 15, really. Personally, I really like the elder evils book, and all the ultimate challenges in it.

[Inevitability]

Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons are some of the most insane things in terms of power, at least before getting into unique beings or templates.

If Dragon Magazine is in play, Great Wyrm Time Dragons are even stronger.

[martixy]

Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons are some of the most insane things in terms of power, at least before getting into unique beings or templates.

If Dragon Magazine is in play, Great Wyrm Time Dragons are even stronger.
Reading sentence one I think "What about time..." then get to sentence two. "Yep, there we go." :)

These things are scary. Apart from Dex, their lowest stat is still above 70... At-will time stop, epic casting, just about unbeatable SR. The amount of freedom afforded by the dragon's hoard at Great Wyrm age and mastery over time would plausibly make this an impossible encounter if done justice.

Over and above the home field advantage Dagroth seemed to imply, the dragons have access to vast resources which can be spent on many a thing.
For example contingent true resurrections, teleports, time stops and most definitely any of a number of easy counters to that vaunted "chill touch".

Also, dragon mags published the demonomicon of igwilv, which buffed all the demon lords from their fiendish codex versions.

And going up against, say, Asmodeus... for an intents and purposes should be logically impossible. You'd be going up against the might of all the hells combined. That'd be achieving a feat that pantheons of gods have failed to. Now where would that put the party in terms of power in relation to the rest of creation?

[etrpgb]

Where are this Time Dragons described? Does anybody know the Dragon Magazine issue number?



And going up against, say, Asmodeus... for an intents and purposes should be logically impossible. You'd be going up against the might of all the hells combined. That'd be achieving a feat that pantheons of gods have failed to. Now where would that put the party in terms of power in relation to the rest of creation?

Settings and logic means nothing in front of the power of RAW! ;) Seriously, don't overthink it too much. We are playing a game where to "Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)" is difficult as "take a 10-foot step instead of the usual 5-foot (Tumble)"

[Telonius]

And going up against, say, Asmodeus... for an intents and purposes should be logically impossible. You'd be going up against the might of all the hells combined. That'd be achieving a feat that pantheons of gods have failed to. Now where would that put the party in terms of power in relation to the rest of creation?

That would depend on how good of a show Asmodeus wants you to put on before you "win" (thus guaranteeing that his actual plot succeeds).

[Remuko]

Asmodeus controlled by Red Fel would be the ultimate challenge.

[etrpgb]

To anyone curious, the Time Dragons are in the Dragon Magazine 359 pag. 36.

[Red Fel]

Asmodeus controlled by Red Fel would be the ultimate challenge.

Aww, you're sweet. Completely correct, but sweet.


Settings and logic means nothing in front of the power of RAW! ;) Seriously, don't overthink it too much. We are playing a game where to "Track a squad of orcs across hard ground after 24 hours of rainfall (Survival)" is difficult as "take a 10-foot step instead of the usual 5-foot (Tumble)"

See, there's the problem. The problem is that you're presenting a challenge in terms of mechanics. Or, to quote the sacred texts, "If it has stats, I can kill it!"

The trick, therefore, is to look beyond that: What about challenges that don't have stats?

I don't mean creating a monster with an AC of NOPE and saves of YEAH RIGHT; I mean creating scenarios. The ultimate challenge isn't slaying the beast; you've proven that you can do that. The ultimate challenge is thinking on your feet, surviving against cosmic forces.

You can't kill an earthquake. You can't fight a plague. You want to challenge your players? Put the PCs in situations where they have to act, and quickly. Situations where they aren't under attack, where they might not even be in any danger, but they still stand to lose.

For example: The PCs are after a MacGuffin for whatever reason. The villain appears, and informs them that he has it - and if they don't do what he wants, it will be destroyed within twenty-four hours. Can they kill him? Absolutely, but they'll risk losing the MacGuffin. Can they hunt for it on their own? Sure, but they have a time limit. Can they completely ignore it? You bet, if they decide the MacGuffin isn't that important. It's not a challenge in that they have to roll dice; it's a challenge in that the use they get from their vaunted powers is limited. You're not taking away their abilities or preventing them from using them - you're pointing out that solving problems requires more than just having the right tools. That's their challenge - to figure out how to use what they have to solve the problem.

[Stealth Marmot]

The Ultimate Challenge is not one with CR 50 that eats 1d6 players per round. The ultimate challenge is one of self reflection and identity. The Ultimate challenge is to know one's character and experience them fully. The Ultimate Challenge?

Character Arc. CR = Infinite.

[etrpgb]

While interesting I guess the last two answers refer to another game?

[Remuko]

While interesting I guess the last two answers refer to another game?

Red Fel and Stealth Marmot were both definitely talking about D&D 3.5e I'm not sure why you would think otherwise.

[etrpgb]

Because there almost no rules in dnd3.5 about "self reflection and identity", are you thinking to Intimidate, Diplomacy and Sense Motive?

About Plague and Earthquakes... I do not know forehand, but I am sure splatbook is a way to change planar rules to remove gravity or summon a small army of Healers or Paladins.

About the adventure, yes, that's a good point, but still it is outside scope: I was asking about creatures. The tarrasque does not really work as satisfying ultimate fight.

[Remuko]

Because there almost no rules in dnd3.5 about "self reflection and identity", are you thinking to Intimidate, Diplomacy and Sense Motive?

About Plague and Earthquakes... I do not know forehand, but I am sure splatbook is a way to change planar rules to remove gravity or summon a small army of Healers or Paladins.

About the adventure, yes, that's a good point, but still it is outside scope: I was asking about creatures. The tarrasque does not really work as satisfying ultimate fight.

He wasnt talking about mechanics. He was saying the roleplaying part of the game, developing your character across a campaign is the real challenge.

Yeah there are ways to solve plagues and earthquakes but the answer isn't "lower its hp to 0". Things with that solution can be trivialized unless theyre loaded up with convoluted immunities and resistances.

I think that's their point. Almost no combat can be the "ultimate fight". If it has stats it can die to damage (or effectively die at least) and if so, it can be trivialized to the point its not "ultimate". Basically theyre saying youre asking the wrong question.

[Red Fel]

Because there almost no rules in dnd3.5 about "self reflection and identity", are you thinking to Intimidate, Diplomacy and Sense Motive?

About Plague and Earthquakes... I do not know forehand, but I am sure splatbook is a way to change planar rules to remove gravity or summon a small army of Healers or Paladins.

About the adventure, yes, that's a good point, but still it is outside scope: I was asking about creatures. The tarrasque does not really work as satisfying ultimate fight.


He wasnt talking about mechanics. He was saying the roleplaying part of the game, developing your character across a campaign is the real challenge.

Yeah there are ways to solve plagues and earthquakes but the answer isn't "lower its hp to 0". Things with that solution can be trivialized unless theyre loaded up with convoluted immunities and resistances.

I think that's their point. Almost no combat can be the "ultimate fight". If it has stats it can die to damage (or effectively die at least) and if so, it can be trivialized to the point its not "ultimate". Basically theyre saying youre asking the wrong question.

Precisely what Remuko says.

Once your players can trivialize epic combats, all combat is simply rocket tag; there's no way to make "the first one to get hit loses" into a challenging fight.

The solution, then, is to have the challenge be a scenario that does not hinge on combat. Yes, combat can be one option, but winning at combat shouldn't mean winning at everything. Slaying the Minotaur doesn't mean you escape the labyrinth; even defeating Asmodeus doesn't guarantee you a way out of Hell.

That's the point. If you're just asking about creatures that will put up a good fight, you won't find a satisfactory answer - you'll just find bigger numbers to overcome with other bigger numbers. It's the same game with bigger dice, and your players have already demonstrated mastery of that one.

[Mordaedil]

Cthulhu, because he ain't statted.

[etrpgb]

That's the point. If you're just asking about creatures that will put up a good fight, you won't find a satisfactory answer - you'll just find bigger numbers to overcome with other bigger numbers. It's the same game with bigger dice, and your players have already demonstrated mastery of that one.

I got the point, but on the other hand if you do not use the mechanics you are playing something else. I did not underline it enough, it does not mean it's bad. Just another kind of game. I have lots of fun with both kind of adventures: mechanics-heavy, number-unrelated-challenge-heavy.

[Karl Aegis]

If you can't kill a plague by hitting it with your sword I don't think you have enough attack bonus. Or have the right Fighter mindset. You can kill anything by hitting it with your sword if you have enough attack bonus and damage.

[Deophaun]

And going up against, say, Asmodeus... for an intents and purposes should be logically impossible. You'd be going up against the might of all the hells combined. That'd be achieving a feat that pantheons of gods have failed to. Now where would that put the party in terms of power in relation to the rest of creation?
You just need to read about what Asmodeus did to Malagarde in the FCII to realize the stat blocks don't contain a fraction of any of the Lords' of Baator true power. If you go up against anything more than an aspect, you lose.

[Dagroth]

Cthulhu, because he ain't statted.

Actually, the first edition of the Deities & Demigods book for 2e had the Cthulhu & Melnibonain mythos in it. It quickly got pulled and replaced, but some people (like my older brother) still have copies.

And the game Call of Cthulhu has stats for him... kind of. His attack is listed as "1d6 people die horribly in his claws". Cthulhu Modern posits this question: "What happens when you hit Cthulhu with a nuclear bomb?" Answer: "He reforms 1d4 rounds later... and now he's radioactive."

Edit: And remember, Cthulhu is only a High Priest of the Great Old Ones...

[Calthropstu]

Cthulhu, because he ain't statted.

Pathfinder begs to differ. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu/) You can also backport into 3.5

[Ravens_cry]

Cthulhu Modern posits this question: "What happens when you hit Cthulhu with a nuclear bomb?" Answer: "He reforms 1d4 rounds later... and now he's radioactive."
To quote the great environmentalist slash super soldier, DOOM guy, "That can't be good."