Questions regarding the spell Demonic Blood Infusion

[Incarnate]

Hello GiantITP..

I was doing some research about how to gain the evil subtype because one of my players wants his character to become a fully fledged devil, his character is already a half-devil
(the savage progression variant) so in some regard he's already half way there. Currently he's playing a level 10 character who seeks to better himself, who isn't too cautious about taking action when opportune moments present themselves.

This is currently his character progression: Unarmed Swordsage4/Warlock4/Half-fiend(devil)2.

Obviously I have some questions about the spell in the subject line - The spell in question. (https://dndtools.net/spells/ghostwalk--94/demonic-blood-infusion--1383/)

Currently we're playing in Forgotten Realms and that particular spell is from the setting Ghostwalk, I don't know if there is an equivalent spell in in FR, I haven't found one - how compatible would you say this spell would be with FR?

I intend to refluff the spell so that it makes the subject into a devil rather than demon, change the alignment to lawful evil, but since the duration is only 1 hour per level, reckon that it can't be used for PrC prerequisites, unless it somehow can be made permanent (ie. using permanency spell). Any viable suggestions to make the spell effect permanent? I'm thinking its plausible that if it was performed as powerful ritual instead (with various costs involved obviously), then the effect could possibly be permanent.

...or could it be used to count for entry to a PrC, and when the effect wears off he would lose access to anything granted from that PrC until he again would be under the effects of the spell or he's aqcuired the prerequisites for the PrC?

The player intends to use it for entry to either fiend of blasphemy or corruption.
Is there an easier/faster way into one of these PrCs from his current build that is reachable within a few levels?

Thanks in advance

/Inc.

[Dagroth]

Hello GiantITP..

I was doing some research about how to gain the evil subtype because one of my players wants his character to become a fully fledged devil, his character is already a half-devil
(the savage progression variant) so in some regard he's already half way there. Currently he's playing a level 10 character who seeks to better himself, who isn't too cautious about taking action when opportune moments present themselves.

This is currently his character progression: Unarmed Swordsage4/Warlock4/Half-fiend(devil)2.

Obviously I have some questions about the spell in the subject line - The spell in question. (https://dndtools.net/spells/ghostwalk--94/demonic-blood-infusion--1383/)

Currently we're playing in Forgotten Realms and that particular spell is from the setting Ghostwalk, I don't know if there is an equivalent spell in in FR, I haven't found one - how compatible would you say this spell would be with FR?

I intend to refluff the spell so that it makes the subject into a devil rather than demon, change the alignment to lawful evil, but since the duration is only 1 hour per level, reckon that it can't be used for PrC prerequisites, unless it somehow can be made permanent (ie. using permanency spell). Any viable suggestions to make the spell effect permanent? I'm thinking its plausible that if it was performed as powerful ritual instead (with various costs involved obviously), then the effect could possibly be permanent.

...or could it be used to count for entry to a PrC, and when the effect wears off he would lose access to anything granted from that PrC until he again would be under the effects of the spell or he's aqcuired the prerequisites for the PrC?

The player intends to use it for entry to either fiend of blasphemy or corruption.
Is there an easier/faster way into one of these PrCs from his current build that is reachable within a few levels?

Thanks in advance

/Inc.

Simple.

Hit character with Demonic Blood Infusion.
Hit character with Polymorph Any Object (character into exactly what he is right now... or into any Outsider form he qualifies for, since the spell indicates he counts as an Outsider for the purpose of any spell or effect).

Congratulations, you're now a Erinyes... or maybe a Bone Devil. Yeah, you don't get the SPAs & such, but you could use your 12th level Feat to Assume Supernatural Ability (From Savage Species).

[Necroticplague]

...or could it be used to count for entry to a PrC, and when the effect wears off he would lose access to anything granted from that PrC until he again would be under the effects of the spell or he's aqcuired the prerequisites for the PrC?
Yes, this spell would let him qualify. And yes, when the spell wears off, he would lose access to the PRC's abilities (though he would keep HP, BaB, and Saves). Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane both state this.




The player intends to use it for entry to either fiend of blasphemy or corruption.
Is there an easier/faster way into one of these PrCs from his current build that is reachable within a few levels?

Diabolus Divine Minion of Sebek has that same LA as his half-fiend currently does, but permanently qualifies. There's a ritual or two in Savage Species to let you change them out.

[Incarnate]

Simple.

Hit character with Demonic Blood Infusion.
Hit character with Polymorph Any Object (character into exactly what he is right now... or into any Outsider form he qualifies for, since the spell indicates he counts as an Outsider for the purpose of any spell or effect).

Congratulations, you're now a Erinyes... or maybe a Bone Devil. Yeah, you don't get the SPAs & such, but you could use your 12th level Feat to Assume Supernatural Ability (From Savage Species).

Does polymorph any object make the duration permanent?

[Dagroth]

Does polymorph any object make the duration permanent?

If you're changing something to something very, very similar, the duration is permanent. If you change a Halfling into a Balor, it's not going to last. If you change a Tiefling girl into a Succubus, the duration is permanent.

That's an oversimplification, but addresses the topic at hand.

[Buufreak]

If you're changing something to something very, very similar, the duration is permanent. If you change a Halfling into a Balor, it's not going to last. If you change a Tiefling girl into a Succubus, the duration is permanent.

That's an oversimplification, but addresses the topic at hand.

Is that the reason people justify using 2 casts to make the change permanent?

[Dagroth]

Is that the reason people justify using 2 casts to make the change permanent?

That is exactly it. Though you can usually just cast the regular Polymorph (or Draconic Polymorph for the extra stat bonuses) for the first change.

[Incarnate]

That is exactly it. Though you can usually just cast the regular Polymorph (or Draconic Polymorph for the extra stat bonuses) for the first change.

I would like to know because from my perspective here is the chain of events that would happen:

1/ Demonic Blood Infusion cast on the subject - subject now has the fiendish template applied and is now chaotic evil.
2/ Polymorph any object is now cast on the subject, the same form or close to that form - the subject is now almost identical to that form.
3/ Some hours later Demonic Blood Infusion expires - subject now has the fiendish template removed and reverts to its original alignment.
** there is a possible fourth, which depends on perception and interpretation of which is actually the original form - the unaffected or the one with demonic blood infusion.
-- I would say it would be the unaffacted form that would count as the natural form, if this is the correct interpretation, then how radical is the change?

So you see it's quite relevant which rule or mechanic it precisely is that makes it permanent!? So which is it?

[Dagroth]

I would like to know because from my perspective here is the chain of events that would happen:

1/ Demonic Blood Infusion cast on the subject - subject now has the fiendish template applied and is now chaotic evil.
2/ Polymorph any object is now cast on the subject, the same form or close to that form - the subject is now almost identical to that form.
3/ Some hours later Demonic Blood Infusion expires - subject now has the fiendish template removed and reverts to its original alignment.
** there is a possible fourth, which depends on perception and interpretation of which is actually the original form - the unaffected or the one with demonic blood infusion.
-- I would say it would be the unaffacted that would count as the unaffected form, if this is the correct interpretation, then how radical is the change?

So you see it's quite relevant which rule or mechanic it precisely is that makes it permanent!? So which is it?

The Fiendish Template doesn't get removed, because the subject is being changed (by PAO) from a being that has that template (because of the spell, I assume) into a being that has that template "naturally".

It is true that after the original spell's duration expires his alignment would return to normal, but everything else would remain.

In fact, you could use Draconic Polymorph to change into an Ogre. This would give you a Str of 29 (+8 from Draconic Polymorph) a Dex of 8 and a Con of 19 (+4 from Draconic Polymorph). Then use PAO to change you from what you are to... what you are. You would then permanently be an Ogre with a Str of 29, Dex of 8 & Con of 19 in place of your original stats.

Or, if you are level 12+, you could turn into a Leonal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leonal.htm) using Draconic Polymorph. You'd gain Str 35, Dex 17, Con 24, Natural Armor +14, 2 claws & a bite attack, Darkvision & Low Light Vision. Pounce, Improved Grab (when biting), Rake & a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. You would not gain the DR or SR, or any of the SU or SP abilities of the Leonal... though you could use Feats to get Assume Supernatural Ability & Greater Assume Supernatural Ability to gain things like the Roar, Protective Aura & Lay-on-Hands.

You would lose specific traits of your original race. If you were Human, you'd lose your extra skill points and your Human Bonus Feat. If you were a Dwarf, you'd lose your fighting giants bonuses & your Stonecunning.

That's important to remember for the guy you're changing. PAO will remove his original racial traits.

[Incarnate]

The Fiendish Template doesn't get removed, because the subject is being changed (by PAO) from a being that has that template (because of the spell, I assume) into a being that has that template "naturally".

It is true that after the original spell's duration expires his alignment would return to normal, but everything else would remain.

In fact, you could use Draconic Polymorph to change into an Ogre. This would give you a Str of 29 (+8 from Draconic Polymorph) a Dex of 8 and a Con of 19 (+4 from Draconic Polymorph). Then use PAO to change you from what you are to... what you are. You would then permanently be an Ogre with a Str of 29, Dex of 8 & Con of 19 in place of your original stats.

Or, if you are level 12+, you could turn into a Leonal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leonal.htm) using Draconic Polymorph. You'd gain Str 35, Dex 17, Con 24, Natural Armor +14, 2 claws & a bite attack, Darkvision & Low Light Vision. Pounce, Improved Grab (when biting), Rake & a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. You would not gain the DR or SR, or any of the SU or SP abilities of the Leonal... though you could use Feats to get Assume Supernatural Ability & Greater Assume Supernatural Ability to gain things like the Roar, Protective Aura & Lay-on-Hands.

You would lose specific traits of your original race. If you were Human, you'd lose your extra skill points and your Human Bonus Feat. If you were a Dwarf, you'd lose your fighting giants bonuses & your Stonecunning.

That's important to remember for the guy you're changing. PAO will remove his original racial traits.

Sounds quite cool, but it still doesn't elaborate on which mechanic or rule that makes the demon blood infusion spell effect become permanent.
- it's just as viable that the template will be removed along with the alignment change, when the spell effect expires.

..which is why I need to know which rule that states this, because all I got so far is that you assume it's because of the spell.
- I don't think it counts as if it has the template naturally, as this is not stated in the spell description I think it would depend on how temporary aqcuired templates are treated as.

[Dagroth]

Sounds quite cool, but it still doesn't elaborate on which mechanic or rule that makes the demon blood infusion spell effect become permanent.
- it's just as viable that the template will be removed along with the alignment change, when the spell effect expires.

..which is why I need to know which rule that states this, because all I got so far is that you assume it's because of the spell.
- I don't think it counts as if it has the template naturally, as this is not stated in the spell description I think it would depend on how temporary aqcuired templates are treated as.

Okay, here goes.

The spell Demonic Blood Infusion physically changes the target. The physical changes are: "The subject gains the fiendish template and the chaotic and evil subtypes." Further: "The creature counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells and effects that affect only certain creature types." And further: "However, any effect that banishes, binds, or sends away outsiders does not function against the subject;"

Now. Those last two lines indicate that the subject is essentially the "Native" subtype of Outsider.

The spell also causes some mental changes which you have to be careful about, because PAO indicates that the Subject will gain the Int score of the being you turn him in to.

So, just like if you used Draconic Polymorph to change him into a Leonal, for the duration of the spell [b]he is that thing. In this case, "that thing" is his original character with the Fiendish template, the Outsider type and the Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes.

Now. Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) has specific rules about how long the effect lasts.

If you PAO a Human into a Human with the Fiendish template, Outsider type & Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes you end up with "Same Size (+2), Same Intelligence (+2) and maybe Related (+2) since you're going from a Human to a Human with templates" This means the spell lasts between 3 hours and 2 days, depending on what the actual ruling is.

If you PAO a Human with the Fiendish template, Outsider type & Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes into a Human with the Fiendish template, Outsider type & Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes you end up with "Same Size (+2), Same Intelligence (+2), Same Kingdom (+5), Same class (+2)" This means the spell lasts permanently. You could even throw in a size increase or change the subtypes to Lawful or Good (but both size increase and subtype change) and still have the result be permanent.

I hope that makes it clearer.

[Incarnate]

Okay, here goes.

The spell Demonic Blood Infusion physically changes the target. The physical changes are: "The subject gains the fiendish template and the chaotic and evil subtypes." Further: "The creature counts as an outsider for the purpose of spells and effects that affect only certain creature types." And further: "However, any effect that banishes, binds, or sends away outsiders does not function against the subject;"

Now. Those last two lines indicate that the subject is essentially the "Native" subtype of Outsider.

The spell also causes some mental changes which you have to be careful about, because PAO indicates that the Subject will gain the Int score of the being you turn him in to.

So, just like if you used Draconic Polymorph to change him into a Leonal, for the duration of the spell [b]he is that thing. In this case, "that thing" is his original character with the Fiendish template, the Outsider type and the Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes.

Now. Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) has specific rules about how long the effect lasts.

If you PAO a Human into a Human with the Fiendish template, Outsider type & Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes you end up with "Same Size (+2), Same Intelligence (+2) and maybe Related (+2) since you're going from a Human to a Human with templates" This means the spell lasts between 3 hours and 2 days, depending on what the actual ruling is.

If you PAO a Human with the Fiendish template, Outsider type & Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes into a Human with the Fiendish template, Outsider type & Chaotic, Evil & Native subtypes you end up with "Same Size (+2), Same Intelligence (+2), Same Kingdom (+5), Same class (+2)" This means the spell lasts permanently. You could even throw in a size increase or change the subtypes to Lawful or Good (but both size increase and subtype change) and still have the result be permanent.

I hope that makes it clearer.

I appreciate you elaborating on it in detail, however I understood it before you made it more detailed, I'm not sure that it would be the correct ruling. My question still stands, what is his natural form? Or perhaps in other words, what becomes his natural form if you can make that effect permanent just by PAO'ing the character into being the temporary form (with the spell effect from Demonic Blood Infusion)? Unless of course the form of the character is in at the time the subject comes under the effects of the PAO is treated as the normal, where as any spell effects that make changes to the characters form would be treated as natural, because in that case then the ruling would be correct.
It all depends on the perspective.

The way I see it: When Demonic Blood Infusion expires his natural form would no longer be affected by that spell, so his current form made by the PAO would make the character different from his normal form (the form before he came under the effects of Demonic Blood Infusion), which would give a duration thats not permanent.

Another question I think is quite relevant, if what you say is the correct interpretation, what happens to feats? As far as I understand class feats would remain, but what about racial and other feats?

[Dagroth]

I appreciate you elaborating on it in detail, however I understood it before you made it more detailed, My question still stands, what is his natural form? Or perhaps in other words, what becomes his natural form if you can make that effect permanent just by PAO'ing the character into being the temporary form (with the spell effect from Demonic Blood Infusion)?

The way I see it: When Demonic Blood Infusion expires his natural form would no longer be affected by that spell, so his current form made by the PAO would make the character different from his normal form (the form before he came under the effects of Demonic Blood Infusion), which would give a duration thats not permanent.

Another question I think is quite relevant, if what you say is the correct interpretation, what happens to feats? As far as I understand class feats would remain, but what about racial and other feats?

PAO doesn't care what the subject's "Natural Form" is. It only cares "What you are now" and "What you're going to be". This is a known method, fully supported by the rules.

All the Feats he gained by going up in levels & taking classes remain, unless they come from a class he no longer qualifies for. For example, if he was originally an Elf and had levels in Eternal Blade, Bladesinger or some other Elf-Only PrC then changing his form like this would make him no longer an Elf and no longer qualified for that PrC.

Racial Feats are lost when you change races. As I mentioned earlier, if you were a Human and did this, you would lose your Human Bonus Feat and your extra skill points.

Details for what you lose when you change races are explained more completely in the Dragonborn of Bahamut race in Races of the Dragon.

[Incarnate]

PAO doesn't care what the subject's "Natural Form" is. It only cares "What you are now" and "What you're going to be". This is a known method, fully supported by the rules.

All the Feats he gained by going up in levels & taking classes remain, unless they come from a class he no longer qualifies for. For example, if he was originally an Elf and had levels in Eternal Blade, Bladesinger or some other Elf-Only PrC then changing his form like this would make him no longer an Elf and no longer qualified for that PrC.

Racial Feats are lost when you change races. As I mentioned earlier, if you were a Human and did this, you would lose your Human Bonus Feat and your extra skill points.

Details for what you lose when you change races are explained more completely in the Dragonborn of Bahamut race in Races of the Dragon.

I assume that PAO can be dispelled or somehow be reverted through magical means, so that the character returns to his normal form - so if dispelled what form would he revert to?:

- the one just before he was PAO'ed while under the effects of the Demon Blood Infusion spell
- the one just before he was PAO'ed but where he's now under the PERMANENT effects of the Demon Blood Infusion spell that has expired now (since it assumed it for his normal form)
- the original form where the the effects of Demon Blood Infusion has now expired (if the duration of the spell has transpired)

Which of the above would he revert to? I think thats a quite important question.

[Dagroth]

I assume that PAO can be dispelled or somehow be reverted through magical means, so that the character returns to his normal form - so if dispelled what form would he revert to?:

- the one just before he was PAO'ed while under the effects of the Demon Blood Infusion spell
- the one just before he was PAO'ed but where he's now under the PERMANENT effects of the Demon Blood Infusion spell that has expired now (since it assumed it for his normal form)
- the original form where the the effects of Demon Blood Infusion has now expired (if the duration of the spell has transpired)

Which of the above would he revert to? I think thats a quite important question.

Yes, the PAO can be dispelled. If it is dispelled, then I believe the subject would return to being under the effect of the Demon Blood Infusion spell for however much time was remaining on the original casting.