Building a saving throw based character

[Matrota]

I got an idea a while ago when looking at complete warrior, and wondered what it would be like to create a character who could negate any and everything with a successful save. This was inspired by seeing the hexblade class' ability mettle.

Mettle (Ex): At 3rd level and higher, a hexblade can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping hexblade does not gain the benefit of mettle.

The fundamentals for this build are to gain both mettle and evasion asap, and hopefully to end up with some nice save numbers. Monks have some of the best saves, so I'd likely go that path to gain evasion over rogue. My idea is a face who always take the lead, a sort of fearless frontliner.

[Flickerdart]

I got an idea a while ago when looking at complete warrior, and wondered what it would be like to create a character who could negate any and everything with a successful save.

What it would be like is "boring." Having high saving throws doesn't do anything. It prevents other people from doing things, but just having good saves won't really let you accomplish anything that a commoner couldn't.

If you want to be really good at saves, a dwarf Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard gets Charisma to saves twice, and another CHA+2 against spells.

[Zaq]

Being good at saving throws doesn't actually let you do anything interesting, since saving throws are entirely reactive abilities. And you still have to either turbocharge your save bonuses or trust in your d20 to let your favorite ability do its thing, which is going to suck up more build resources. (If you're just making a fun-with-numbers build rather than a playable character, dipping around like crazy will juice your saves, but it'll be difficult to make the resulting character able to contribute in a level-appropriate way.)

I would try to find a way to minimize the number of levels you need to spend on getting Evasion and Mettle, since again, those abilities don't actually let you do anything. That frees up more of your build to have some kind of active abilities. Pious Templar (CDiv) will give you Mettle with only a single class level invested, though it does take two mediocre feats to enter. Depending on exactly how many feats you have free, it's even technically possible to get Evasion with only feats and no class levels (Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots + Open Least Chakra), but feats are precious.

Basically, what do you want the character to do other than occasionally resist things a little better than other folks can? Because just resisting things isn't actually something that will be a playable character if it's all that you bring to the table. Again, if you just want a fun-with-numbers build that's never meant to be played, that's fine and we can have some fun with that, but I don't get the impression that that's what you're looking for.

[JustIgnoreMe]

If you want to be really good at saves, a dwarf Hexblade/Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard gets Charisma to saves twice, and another CHA+2 against spells.
Sorry to hijack the thread, and I hope it doesn't derail it too much, but is it really possible to get Charisma to saves twice? I recently saw a discussion in this very forum that said you couldn't, because the "type" of the bonus was "Charisma Ability Modifier", so even if it came from different sources (feats, Class Abilities, etc.), the type stacking rules applied.

[Flickerdart]

Sorry to hijack the thread, and I hope it doesn't derail it too much, but is it really possible to get Charisma to saves twice? I recently saw a discussion in this very forum that said you couldn't, because the "type" of the bonus was "Charisma Ability Modifier", so even if it came from different sources (feats, Class Abilities, etc.), the type stacking rules applied.

Well, let's take a look.



At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

All good - the bonus is not Charisma Ability Modifier, it's an unnamed bonus equal to CHA mod.



A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

There's some (tiny) leeway here to argue that the Charisma bonus is applied directly, but not a lot.



At 2nd level, a hexblade gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1) on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

Same as the paladin - it's a bonus equal to CHA mod, not CHA mod itself.

Even if the people in your discussion were right (and they are not) this general conclusion does not apply to this specific case, since 2 of the 3 effects are clearly specified as independent, unnamed bonuses.

[Twurps]

boosting saves is nice. Replacing them with save replacing maneuvers seems better. (Concentration is very easy to boost. If you really want cha to these saves, take a level of marshall, but it really shouldn't be necessary)

I once put both evasion and mettle (through pious templar) on a buid with Crusader (for healing maneuvers) /Ruby Knight Vindicator. with a 1 level dip in swordsage for the save replacers. I had a big shield bonus to (touch!) AC (via feats I think.) and added sanctified one of Wee Jas for 'armor of law' to boost said bonus.

All in all, pretty untouchable at the (relatively low) level of optimization we play at. But the build didn't really excite me, so I've never actually played it. I wouldn't call it boring, but there are more exciting ideas to try out.

[Matrota]

Basically, what do you want the character to do other than occasionally resist things a little better than other folks can? Because just resisting things isn't actually something that will be a playable character if it's all that you bring to the table. Again, if you just want a fun-with-numbers build that's never meant to be played, that's fine and we can have some fun with that, but I don't get the impression that that's what you're looking for.

Good point, I should have been more specific. I'd like to formulate a playable character with this idea, though I have no idea when I actually planning to implement it. The giants here make a good point about how just saving well is pretty boring and won't show up often enough to make the character shine either. Heh, oh well, the thread has been posted and I still kinda like the idea.

Maybe I'd go pious templar path with church inquisitor later as a character who seeks out evil and corruption? Would be good for going through unholy crpts full of traps and stuff. Then again, though church inquisitor is a fun class, their fortitude and reflex saves aren't all that great for this specific concept. Hmm.

[etrpgb]

Shugenja (Earth/All seeing eye) X/Prestige Paladin 3 ? Seems a good start... Consider to join the Sacred Exorcist and the Divine Oracle for extra versatility and power.

It should be well playable. It of course depends on the strength of the party.

[Gusmo]

As long as you can continuously hit the UMD checks, a tabard of valor gets you not just mettle, but improved mettle. Since it's not clear what the DC would be though, you'd need to argue for being able to use the activate blindly clause of UMD, which is convenient, because it grants you a +2 bonus on subsequent activation once you've done it once.

[daremetoidareyo]

spell reflection acf (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a) + dumb luck (CS) + residual rebound (UA) + survivor's luck (CS)

Human
rogue 2/ residual rebound, survivors luck
monk 2/ unbelievable luck
hexblade 3/broken one's sacrifice
fortune's friend 5/ dumb luck bonus feat, good karma

add in pious soul from complete divine, to add a 1d6 to your d20 roll