Does anyone else feel Battle Master doesn't get enough dice?

[Sans.]

Example: at level 10 a Battle Master gets 4 superiority dice per rest and 2 attacks a round, meaning the dice could easily be used up in the first encounter after the rest. Assuming 2 short rests a day, that's just 12 manoeuvres for the whole day, and they're weak enough that they only replace one attack. In contrast, any full caster gets 15 (plus Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery or whatever) cool tricks that are so powerful they take a whole turn to use.

[Fishyninja]

I kinda have to agree with you on this.
I understand that the idea of a Battle Master is a tactician and therefore they must pick and choose when and where to fight and when to use their skills. However I think even if you made it like the Monk (hell even half of the Monk's Ki).

I.e. Level 3 = 3
Level 4 = 4
Level 5 = 5 and so forth.

Even if you did:
Level 3 = 3
Level 4 = 3
Level 5 = 4
Level 6 = 4

I think this might be more suitable.

[Corginin]

Actually, you start with 4 dice and gain another at 7th level so you would have 5 per short rest to spread around the 7 maneuvers you would know. But yes, I do feel like they sometimes are gone through too quickly but hard to say how it would work out giving more.

[Sigreid]

While it would be fun to have more so the toys can be played with more often, it might make them too good as a base model fighter is already very good at what it does.

[jaappleton]

Fighters get more Feats / ASIs than anyone. So I say the easiest way to fix it is to have the... Darn it, I'm AFB, but the Feat that nets you a maneuver and one dice.

Have that Feat grant two dice instead of one.

[gfishfunk]

I disagree.

Since they reset on a short rest, is perfectly balanced against the rest of the features in the class. They aren't designed to add more damage really, they are designed to add benefits to combat, like tripping or defense or accuracy.

Don't compare it to ranger or rogue (no one did yet). Compare it to champion and Eldritch Knight. If you go through them all in two rounds, you are probably adding for damage, not effect.

[Fishyninja]

Fighters get more Feats / ASIs than anyone. So I say the easiest way to fix it is to have the... Darn it, I'm AFB, but the Feat that nets you a maneuver and one dice.

Have that Feat grant two dice instead of one.

You have martial training that allows you to perform special combat maneuvers. You gain the following benefits:


You learn two maneuvers of your choice from among those available to the Battle Master archetype in the fighter class. If a maneuver you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).


If you already have superiority dice, you gain one more; otherwise, you have one superiority die, which is a d6. This die is used to fuel your maneuvers. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.

[Desamir]

Spells are the core mechanic of full casters, maneuvers are a subclass feature. A spellcaster without spells can't do much, while a Battle Master without maneuvers is still a Fighter. They can't really be compared.

[jaappleton]

You have martial training that allows you to perform special combat maneuvers. You gain the following benefits:


You learn two maneuvers of your choice from among those available to the Battle Master archetype in the fighter class. If a maneuver you use requires your target to make a saving throw to resist the maneuver’s effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).


If you already have superiority dice, you gain one more; otherwise, you have one superiority die, which is a d6. This die is used to fuel your maneuvers. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain your expended superiority dice when you finish a short or long rest.

Right! That one! Yeah, have it grant 2.

[MrStabby]

Personally i would prefer to see higher level battle-master abilities as well - something like whirlwind attack (but not this itself as it is another class ability) or a paralysing attack that maybe needed two dice to use. The trouble is that whilst this adds to the fun the class is pretty powerful up to about level 12 anyway so you wouldn't want to overdo it.

[RSP]

Yeah, the fighter is already really good so I'd be careful about tinkering around with adding more dice. In some ways, it would be like adding more Spell slots to a caster.

5 dice on a short rest isn't bad at all. Yeah the Monk has more Ki but that Ki is more essential to a lot of their abilities, whereas the Fighter is still pretty darn good at consistent, round-by-round damage even without any dice.

Compared it to the Champion, who essentially get less than double damage, about 5% of the time over a BM as their base mechanic. I think it's pretty even for balancing the archetypes.

Granted, in character, RP-wise it doesn't make sense: "I'd disarm you, my enemy, but I'm a little too winded from having riposted earlier..." but that's necessary for balance.

[Fishyninja]

Right! That one! Yeah, have it grant 2.
I'd go for that as a quick....I hate the word Fix...........but you know.

[Specter]

Well, that obviously depends on how many fights you get into before you short rest. If 1, it's more than fair. If 2, it's decent. 3 or more and they have to be franctically rationed.

Wanna know what sucks about Battlemaster? Relentless. It's not only the worst ability ever because Bards get a worst version of it at level 20.

[mgshamster]

One of the bigger DPR complaints about the champion is how improved critical just doesn't stack up to the battlemaster superiority dice.

And that's with it as is.

You want to give the battlemaster more superiority dice?!

[gfishfunk]

Right! That one! Yeah, have it grant 2.

This would be a good balance to the feat itself, which is currently lackluster.

[Fishyninja]

One of the bigger DPR complaints about the champion is how improved critical just doesn't stack up to the battlemaster superiority dice.

And that's with it as is.

You want to give the battlemaster more superiority dice?!

Yes, that's what the title implies:smallbiggrin:

I get your point though!

[mephnick]

I think the amount of dice is fine, for the reasons others have explained. What Battle Master needs is some more options with some stronger ones that are gated behind BM level.

Choosing your favourite maneuvers at level 3 is great, but the class literally has no fun progression from there. You're choosing from the list of options you deemed less fun at level 3 until level 20. It's just bad design.

I'm not a huge fan of 3.5's Book of Nine Swords, but gating stronger maneuvers behind path requirements actually gave a sense of progression at least.

[Fishyninja]

I think the amount of dice is fine, for the reasons others have explained. What Battle Master needs is some more options with some stronger ones that are gated behind BM level.

Choosing your favourite maneuvers at level 3 is great, but the class literally has no fun progression from there. You're choosing from the list of options you deemed less fun at level 3 until level 20. It's just bad design.

I'm not a huge fan of 3.5's Book of Nine Swords, but gating stronger maneuvers behind path requirements actually gave a sense of progression at least.
As only a 5e player what did it entail, would it be like a skill tree in an RPG?

[jaappleton]

This would be a good balance to the feat itself, which is currently lackluster.

Exactly. I'm not spending a Feat for one extra dice per short rest. I'd much rather take Resilient: Dex or Resilient: Wis. Both are massively superior options.

But two dice? That's ensuring two other attacks hit with Precision Strike. When coupled with Sharpshooter, that's 20 extra damage. That's killing an enemy much faster, which means the enemy deals less damage to my party, which means less healing is needed, which means less resources are used as a whole.

[Oramac]

What Battle Master needs is some more options with some stronger ones that are gated behind BM level.

Choosing your favourite maneuvers at level 3 is great, but the class literally has no fun progression from there. You're choosing from the list of options you deemed less fun at level 3 until level 20. It's just bad design.

I'm not a huge fan of 3.5's Book of Nine Swords, but gating stronger maneuvers behind path requirements actually gave a sense of progression at least.

Though I believe the BM does need another dice or two, I fully agree with Mephnick about the lack of progression. Gated maneuvers would be a great addition to the archetype.

[ad_hoc]

I think they get too many dice, at least early on.

They should start with 3, not 4.

[Sir cryosin]

Personally i would prefer to see higher level battle-master abilities as well - something like whirlwind attack (but not this itself as it is another class ability) or a paralysing attack that maybe needed two dice to use. The trouble is that whilst this adds to the fun the class is pretty powerful up to about level 12 anyway so you wouldn't want to overdo it.

You know there's a battle maneuver for that it's called Cleve

[Matrix_Walker]

I am in the camp of feeling it's already too potent. The first time I read it I thought they should get Int Mod uses, but I think they were afraid of making it too MAD or something.

I compare it to bardic inspiration, as the closest parallel ability... and it starts out refreshing on a long rest until level 5, and you get CHA mod uses and a lower die.

[bid]

Assuming 2 short rests a day, that's just 12 manoeuvres for the whole day, and they're weak enough that they only replace one attack. In contrast, any full caster gets 15 (plus Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery or whatever) cool tricks that are so powerful they take a whole turn to use.
EK gets 11 cool tricks. Full casters don't get 4 attacks.

[Socratov]

I think the amount of dice is fine, for the reasons others have explained. What Battle Master needs is some more options with some stronger ones that are gated behind BM level.

Choosing your favourite maneuvers at level 3 is great, but the class literally has no fun progression from there. You're choosing from the list of options you deemed less fun at level 3 until level 20. It's just bad design.

I'm not a huge fan of 3.5's Book of Nine Swords, but gating stronger maneuvers behind path requirements actually gave a sense of progression at least.
I loved it: it made fighter do other stuff then plain "I hit it with my pointy metal stick" and introduces more tactics and variety into combat. It also made sure your fightery guy had to plan his sequence ahead and use positioning etc. to use them well. Granted, some were a little bit like spells and it had a faint whiff of Anime Fightan Majic, but on the whole as a resource system wit worked really, really well...

As only a 5e player what did it entail, would it be like a skill tree in an RPG?

You basically had 9 'paths', which were more like philosophical outlooks on being a good martial character. Those paths were made up from 3 things: maneuvers (ways to hit it with a stick with beneficial/detrimental effects), boost/counters (ways to make sure other weren's so fortunately against you) and Stances (Always on buffs/debuffs/aura's). These were available each encounter and were spent after being used. Each Tome of Battle (ToB) class had its own way to recover them during combat (so they could be used over and over). You knew a certain set of maneuvers//boosts/counters//stances and could only prepare X maneuvers/boosts (stances were always fully known).

As you leveled up you gained acces to either maneuvers of new paths (as you could take more maneuvers like spells), or higher level maneuvers of the same path. But besides the path prerequisites, some also had lvl prerequisites which worked like 5e caster multiclassing: some classes counted for 1/2, others for full and the rest for 0. You tallied up the level and once you took a level in a ToB class you determined what level ToB stuff you could use and picked accordingly.

this book led to a huge rift in the 3.5 community between those who absolutely loved the system and those who hated it with a passion. The former accused the latter of not allowing martial characters to have anything nice (even being detrimental to them and hating martials), the latter considered the former more like weeaboos (and therefore not true DnD fans//subhuman). (this is clearly slightly hyperbolic, but at its deepest and basest level this was the situation).

The sytem was by no means perfect as it was hastily written and lazily edited which led to gems like: " I Iron Heart Surge gravity and now am able to fly around" or "I may reroll and add damage when I roll a 1 and at max die value so if I take a d2 weapon I do infinite damage" and it had a couple of weird tricks but overall it worked rather decently.

In my opinion it's a great book that details just any of the martial regular forms (frenzy barbarian, durable barbarian, tactician, commander, sneaky combatant, healer/striker/true believer, duelist/etc.) in an elegant way and making sure that everyone had a baseline of power that worked rather well as well as gave someone more to think off then "what number should I power attack for...". It introduced resource constraints without giving actual spellslots, it gave a huge of variety in terms of options and flavour as well as get the martial characters from tier 5/6 to tier 3 (the oft agreed upon sweet spot for dnd 3.5). Which was a huge deal as it brought martials and caster a lot more together any splatbook did.

[Fishyninja]

I loved it: it made fighter do other stuff then plain "I hit it with my pointy metal stick" and introduces more tactics and variety into combat. It also made sure your fightery guy had to plan his sequence ahead and use positioning etc. to use them well. Granted, some were a little bit like spells and it had a faint whiff of Anime Fightan Majic, but on the whole as a resource system wit worked really, really well... One of the main reasons why I picked it. I like the Fight Smarter not Harder aspect.



You basically had 9 'paths', which were more like philosophical outlooks on being a good martial character. Those paths were made up from 3 things: maneuvers (ways to hit it with a stick with beneficial/detrimental effects), boost/counters (ways to make sure other weren's so fortunately against you) and Stances (Always on buffs/debuffs/aura's). These were available each encounter and were spent after being used. Each Tome of Battle (ToB) class had its own way to recover them during combat (so they could be used over and over). You knew a certain set of maneuvers//boosts/counters//stances and could only prepare X maneuvers/boosts (stances were always fully known).

As you leveled up you gained acces to either maneuvers of new paths (as you could take more maneuvers like spells), or higher level maneuvers of the same path. But besides the path prerequisites, some also had lvl prerequisites which worked like 5e caster multiclassing: some classes counted for 1/2, others for full and the rest for 0. You tallied up the level and once you took a level in a ToB class you determined what level ToB stuff you could use and picked accordingly.

this book led to a huge rift in the 3.5 community between those who absolutely loved the system and those who hated it with a passion. The former accused the latter of not allowing martial characters to have anything nice (even being detrimental to them and hating martials), the latter considered the former more like weeaboos (and therefore not true DnD fans//subhuman). (this is clearly slightly hyperbolic, but at its deepest and basest level this was the situation).

The sytem was by no means perfect as it was hastily written and lazily edited which led to gems like: " I Iron Heart Surge gravity and now am able to fly around" or "I may reroll and add damage when I roll a 1 and at max die value so if I take a d2 weapon I do infinite damage" and it had a couple of weird tricks but overall it worked rather decently.

In my opinion it's a great book that details just any of the martial regular forms (frenzy barbarian, durable barbarian, tactician, commander, sneaky combatant, healer/striker/true believer, duelist/etc.) in an elegant way and making sure that everyone had a baseline of power that worked rather well as well as gave someone more to think off then "what number should I power attack for...". It introduced resource constraints without giving actual spellslots, it gave a huge of variety in terms of options and flavour as well as get the martial characters from tier 5/6 to tier 3 (the oft agreed upon sweet spot for dnd 3.5). Which was a huge deal as it brought martials and caster a lot more together any splatbook did.
It seems like bringing something back to 5e, even as a relatively nerfed homebrew might be overpowered?

[Ninja-Radish]

I wouldn't say Battlemaster is a great archetype, but compared to the unmitigated crapfests that are the Champion and EK, the Battlemaster is clearly superior.

The big issue is that positioning and tactical movement just aren't as important in 5e, which takes away from much of the impact of the Battlemaster's maneuvers. Unless there's a cliff or ledge handy, what good does pushing attack do? Hell, what good does lunging attack do? The vast majority of BM maneuvers are highly situational.

[SharkForce]

Well, that obviously depends on how many fights you get into before you short rest. If 1, it's more than fair. If 2, it's decent. 3 or more and they have to be franctically rationed.

Wanna know what sucks about Battlemaster? Relentless. It's not only the worst ability ever because Bards get a worst version of it at level 20.

sorcerers have bard *and* battlemaster beat when it comes to the "my capstone is garbage" competition.

(not that it's a wonderful place to be).

personally I feel like fighters in general could use something at higher levels... I don't see it as an archetype problem. but one thing I've learned is that making suggestions to change fighters doesn't seem to make anyone happy, so I don't bother any more.

[Fishyninja]

I wouldn't say Battlemaster is a great archetype, but compared to the unmitigated crapfests that are the Champion and EK, the Battlemaster is clearly superior.

The big issue is that positioning and tactical movement just aren't as important in 5e, which takes away from much of the impact of the Battlemaster's maneuvers. Unless there's a cliff or ledge handy, what good does pushing attack do? Hell, what good does lunging attack do? The vast majority of BM maneuvers are highly situational.
Indeed many of them are, but again many of them have that extra little something. For example the Riposte against the BBEG is always a win. Other faves of mine include trip attack and disarm attack.

All very good battle aspects, epecially if you do not have a monk in your group.
I mean I am a little biased as I have not played a EK or Champion yet.

[DireSickFish]

I think they get enough. Especially since they recharge on a short rest.

[Desamir]

I wouldn't say Battlemaster is a great archetype, but compared to the unmitigated crapfests that are the Champion and EK, the Battlemaster is clearly superior.

EK is hardly a crapfest. Just because it doesn't fulfill the gish fantasy doesn't mean it's bad.

[Matrix_Walker]

Does anyone agree that getting Int-Mod Uses would have been a more appropriate model?

[Crusher]

personally I feel like fighters in general could use something at higher levels...

4 attacks/round is pretty swanky.

[Fishyninja]

4 attacks/round is pretty swanky.

Even having 3 attacks at level 11 is good and also dont forget Action Surge will double that!.

[DireSickFish]

Does anyone agree that getting Int-Mod Uses would have been a more appropriate model?

Not really. Don't want the class to be unnecessarily MAD, and we already have 1 subclass that focuses on INT as a secondary stat in the Eldrich Knight. Plus some of the maneuvers already use alternate stats (like charisma), so it'd be kind of a mess.

[SharkForce]

4 attacks/round is pretty swanky.

sure. but three levels ago wizards were casting wish. clerics have been bringing people back from the dead since level 5, and at this point druids become nigh-unkillable onions.

attacking a bit faster is pretty good for in-combat. but it probably isn't going to change the world.

but, like i said, apparently this doesn't bother the people who want to play fighters, so i try not to sweat the details.

[Deleted]

Example: at level 10 a Battle Master gets 4 superiority dice per rest and 2 attacks a round, meaning the dice could easily be used up in the first encounter after the rest. Assuming 2 short rests a day, that's just 12 manoeuvres for the whole day, and they're weak enough that they only replace one attack. In contrast, any full caster gets 15 (plus Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery or whatever) cool tricks that are so powerful they take a whole turn to use.

The most laughable thing about this wanna be psionic warrior subclass is that their abilities don't ever grow.

They start off with cantrip/level 1 spell level features and they stay at that level. It would be like the Warlock never gaining a boost in spell level.

4 dice? Ok. Add some more dice? Ok.

But not having growth? That's straight up fricken hilariously bad.

[Malifice]

Fighters get more Feats / ASIs than anyone. So I say the easiest way to fix it is to have the... Darn it, I'm AFB, but the Feat that nets you a maneuver and one dice.

Have that Feat grant two dice instead of one.

Martial adept. I let it grant 2 dice.

[Pex]

I wouldn't say Battlemaster is a great archetype, but compared to the unmitigated crapfests that are the Champion and EK, the Battlemaster is clearly superior.

The big issue is that positioning and tactical movement just aren't as important in 5e, which takes away from much of the impact of the Battlemaster's maneuvers. Unless there's a cliff or ledge handy, what good does pushing attack do? Hell, what good does lunging attack do? The vast majority of BM maneuvers are highly situational.

You push the opponent away from the spellcaster so he can move without an AoO or away from the archer so he can attack without disadvantage. You lunge after you move when your opponent is 40 ft away or you're in a tight corridor and second rank or you still have movement left after you attack so as not to provoke an opportunity attack from the opponent you attack when you move away because you're not in his threatened area. It's a good thing many maneuvers are situational. It inherently helps you to conserve your dice and not run out quickly.

[Cespenar]

The thing about "versatile" maneuvers like pushing and lunging is that you only have a few maneuvers to pick anyway, so you have to get ones that give some direct, unadulterated gain. Like Precision and Riposte. So the others simply never get chosen.

It would be better if they "knew" them all, but prepared a different set of them every day like a spellcaster.

[wilhelmdubdub]

How about proficiency bonus number of attacks? Then it would be up to 6 per short rest.

[Ryuu Hayato]

For me, they need -1 superiority dice. The problem with Champion and EK is the hegemony of BM. If they don't use a d12 on late game (at max d10 or d8) and only have 5 dice at max level, they'll be more balance with others archetypes.

Every other fighter archetype (like UA articles) seems bad if you compare with BM. The BM should be use for tatics, strategy, don't explosion (nova? :smallconfused:) damage with trip attack.

[baticeer]

I think battlemasters do fine in terms of power level.

When it comes to running out of superiority dice too fast. Maybe what would help isn't more dice but rather giving the battlemaster some minor always-on abilities?

[jaappleton]

I think battlemasters do fine in terms of power level.

When it comes to running out of superiority dice too fast. Maybe what would help isn't more dice but rather giving the battlemaster some minor always-on abilities?

Not a bad idea. "You can use a bonus action to attempt to _____, with a DC of _____". Though there would have to be a hugely refined list of Maneuvers. Precision Strike would need to be changed to "You can add your proficiency bonus twice to your attack roll".

[Deleted]

EK is hardly a crapfest. Just because it doesn't fulfill the gish fantasy doesn't mean it's bad.

The EK is a crapfest, just not in the way many people think. For example, it's more like the PHB BM Ranger than the Champion. It just feels wrong.

It's usable but the mechanics just don't jive well and it gets things way too late (though getting things too late is a common theme).

The biggest issue is that you stay Martial with a little bit of magic until most games are over (and thr class is like half over) instead of the class being one cohesive unit from the get go.

The combination between the two doesn't happen soon enough so you end up playing something that feels more like a champion with magic initiate feat.

This is fine if you are going for simplicity, though at that point you should give them Warlock type casting... But the thing is, the PHB EK is not the simple option and was made for a more complex martial.

Sure the Fighter gets an extra ASI at low levels and could boost their Int but sadly, because no feature other than Spell DC/Attack relies on Int, Int becomes a very viable dumpstat for the EK.

The Fighter could ignore Str (or dex), Con, or Wis in order to pump up Int but that's pretty costly for limited returns as using buff spells allows you to focus on better stats and makes you a powerhouse at what the fighter does (kill things).

Probably the most simple fix for the EK that I've seen in play is to give War Magic at 3, Eldritch Strike at 7, Arcane Charge at 10, and Improved War Magic at 15.

We went to level 9 so the EK got War Magic @ 3 and Eldritch Strike @7.

This allowed, right out of the gate, for a EK to feel like a single cohesive class instead of two classes smooshed together.

More like the Paladin than the PHB BM Ranger.

[Ninja-Radish]

For me, they need -1 superiority dice. The problem with Champion and EK is the hegemony of BM. If they don't use a d12 on late game (at max d10 or d8) and only have 5 dice at max level, they'll be more balance with others archetypes.

Every other fighter archetype (like UA articles) seems bad if you compare with BM. The BM should be use for tatics, strategy, don't explosion (nova? :smallconfused:) damage with trip attack.

The other archetypes need to be improved. Nerfing the Battlemaster is a bad idea, considering it's really not great to begin with. It only looks good by comparison because the other archetypes are so bad.

[MrStabby]

Battlemaster is good - but only in the early levels. Superiority dice are spread through an ever increasing number of attacks and relative to the HP of the enemies they do less and less damage.

[Oramac]

Battlemaster is good - but only in the early levels. Superiority dice are spread through an ever increasing number of attacks and relative to the HP of the enemies they do less and less damage.

This is accurate. To expand on my earlier opinion that the BM should get more dice, I would say they ought to get 2 dice at 7th and 15th level, rather than one.

[LordVonDerp]

It seems like it's more an issue of not getting enough short rests.

[chando]

On my game, I did allowed the PC to recover superiority dice with a bonus action. So far they are 5th level and I see no problem, but he is a polearm master and uses his bonus action mostly to attack and sometimes forgets about the recovery feature. so i can't really say if it really throws it out of a whack. The 15th level feature its quite powerful, but we'll see when we get there, as other said, the damage increase BM gives gets comparatively smaller at higher levels, but with the recharge mechanic, thats probably too much. Maybe allowing a new high level maneuvers at level 15 that spend more dice for better effects would be better.

"Combat Superiority: Whenever you have no superiority dice and you hit an opponent with a weapon attack, you can use a bonus action to recover a single superiority dice. Once you are at least 7th level, you recover two superiority dice with a single bonus action. Once you are 15th level, you can recover three superiority dices each time you use a bonus action to do so.

DUAL STRIKE [Replaces RELENTLESS]
Starting at level 15th, whenever you use a maneuver that has an effect when you hit a creature, you can use two maneuvers that have an effect when you hit a creature instead. You must spend a superiority die for each maneuver normally, and both maneuvers take effect at the same time."

[Vogonjeltz]

Example: at level 10 a Battle Master gets 4 superiority dice per rest and 2 attacks a round, meaning the dice could easily be used up in the first encounter after the rest. Assuming 2 short rests a day, that's just 12 manoeuvres for the whole day, and they're weak enough that they only replace one attack. In contrast, any full caster gets 15 (plus Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery or whatever) cool tricks that are so powerful they take a whole turn to use.

No, they're riders on normal attacks, whereas spells, for example, replace all normal attacks. Adding more dice than they get would be excessively powerful.


sure. but three levels ago wizards were casting wish.

Granted, but Wish is just a stand-in for any other spell 8th level or lower. Yes, the other options exist, but they are crippling and may result in permanent loss of wish. I mean, it's nice, but it's not quite as good as is often made out. On balance I'd probably just want one of the other 9th level spells instead of a 2nd 8th level spell (or lower).


But not having growth? That's straight up fricken hilariously bad.

The Battlemaster? They get more dice and the dice get bigger, how is that not growth?


If they don't use a d12 on late game (at max d10 or d8) and only have 5 dice at max level, they'll be more balance with others archetypes.

They all fulfill different play styles.

Champion is a bunch of always on features, and they (consequently) have the best sustained damage.

Battlemaster is founded on short rest abilities, they have alot of burst.

Eldritch Knight is mostly long rest abilities (spells) and features that synergize with that/provide mobility (i.e War Magic, Eldritch Strike, Arcane Charge)

In a sense, the one that's "best" for any given player is highly dependent on what style of play they want to enjoy, one that requires next to no rest, one that operates short term, or one long term.

[Bahamut7]

I haven't played a fighter let alone the Battlemaster but I have played the Swordsage back in 3.5. I would offer instead of adding Superiority dice how about giving them a maneuver or two and maybe a stance (at higher levels) from the Tome of Battle. Mind you not the High level abilities as that damage would be game breaking, but the low level ones that add a 1d6, element, or some other rider.

This would be equivalent to the Ki free abilities of some of the Monk subclasses. It wouldn't spike the BM damage output but give them a few more options that are resource free but still once per encounter.

[SharkForce]

Granted, but Wish is just a stand-in for any other spell 8th level or lower. Yes, the other options exist, but they are crippling and may result in permanent loss of wish. I mean, it's nice, but it's not quite as good as is often made out. On balance I'd probably just want one of the other 9th level spells instead of a 2nd 8th level spell (or lower).

it really isn't the same at all.

there's a world of difference between symbol that costs 1000 gold and takes an extended period of time to cast, and symbol that costs zero gold and can be cast in a single action (and as a result of being cast in a single action, provides an incredible amount of flexibility in effect and targeted saving throw whereas symbol is normally going to be set in place long before it triggers and you won't get to decide which version you want on the fly).

likewise, there's a world of difference between using a glyph of warding to instantly sustain any level 8 or lower spell without concentration requirements at a moment's notice (albeit requiring another slot).

there's a world of difference between being able to cast planar binding in the middle of a fight on an extraplanar being you would be normally fighting to cause them to switch sides immediately (free of charge, again unlike the base spell), and only being able to use it on extraplanar beings that you have somehow trapped, and only realistically being able to use it outside of a fight.

wish takes spells that are designed with certain limitations in place and throws those limitations away. but, if you prefer other level 9 spells, it isn't like there aren't any fairly ridiculous options to choose from there either. true polymoprh to instantly create any CR 9 or lower creature that will take orders for the next hour, and possibly continue to serve beyond, well, that certainly isn't nothing.

regardless, it still doesn't get around the main point... at a time when other classes are reshaping the world, the fighter is getting a second use of a level 2 ability and a 4th attack per round. those are good abilities, don't get me wrong, but by this time, you're supposed to be the kind of hero that can change the world. "slightly better than hiring a couple of level 5 fighter hirelings" is not the benchmark we should be using when it comes to level 20 abilities.

[Bahamut7]

Just did a quick skim through the ToB abilities and most of them could be converted quite easily...a handful in each school would need to be tweaked quite a bit. If anyone wishes to go this route, it would require your DM to approve any chosen abilities from this book and modified as needed. I believe another user is currently working on converting these to 5e, but all homebrew should be reviewed before used.

[rooneg]

Honestly, in a world where you're getting 2 short rests a day the number of dice the battlemaster gets isn't a huge deal. Would it be nice if it was higher? Sure. Is it critical? No.

The real issue is the lack of growth in the actual maneuver pool over time. You picked the best 3 maneuvers at level 3. Then you learn the few you were on the fence about at 7. Then at 10 and 15 you get the crap you couldn't be bothered caring about at 3 and 7. There should be some more impressive maneuvers that unlock only at higher levels. Give me Whirlwind Attack, give me Impale, give me something spectacular! I get that the first few you're going to get are actually super strong, but after spending 10 levels constantly using Riposte and Precision Attack give me something stronger to do, even if it costs multiple dice, or can only be used once per short rest or whatever.

[bid]

but after spending 10 levels constantly using Riposte and Precision Attack give me something stronger to do, even if it costs multiple dice, or can only be used once per short rest or whatever.
Or make riposte/precision unlock at level 10.

Still, going from 4 to 6 "slots" growing from level d8 to level d12 (+2 average) is pretty weak. EKs manage to get fireball and do 8d6 extra damage to a bunch of targets. Spamming sword burst for 3d6 on 3 targets is also better than 2 attacks.

So, I can see some sort of super sweeping attack would help at higher level. Just applying the SD as damage to all in range could come close enough to fireball (1 slot ~ 4 SD, so 8d6 ~ 4d12).

[MadBear]

To be the bigger issue with BM is that the superiority dice have to be limited because of the extra damage they add in to the battle.

What if the maneuvers were split up so that some could be used without using superiority dice, but didn't add the damage rider if so chosen.

So now, the BM could disarm every turn all day long, but they wouldn't get the damage bump unless they spent a superiority dice.

[bid]

So now, the BM could disarm every turn all day long, but they wouldn't get the damage bump unless they spent a superiority dice.
Well, that would allow riposte every turn too. Not to mention a free shove (trip), fear (menacing), and SA for your rogue (commander's).

[toapat]

The problem with Champion and EK is the hegemony of BM.

youre pretty much handling the problem wrong that way.

Champion fighter gains no complexity over its lifespan and doesnt get the kind of action economy Battlemaster does. It sucks because it has nothing to do and isnt even as good as barbarian at that nothing.

Eldrich Knight is a disaster. your spellcasting is taken from the wizard spell list as opposed to a specially designed spell list for the subclass, your lvl 3 classfeature that isnt spellcasting? Cannot come up in standard play because disarming attacks can only be performed by battlemaster fighters, and the other 4 features clearly come way later than they were designed for because of an ability which the DM is supposed to never have, and this ignores that Action Surge literally doesnt work with EK

[skaddix]

Meh I don't see the problem with Champion some subclasses have to be simple to play.
Granted it its pretty darn boring. So I suppose scaling their crit range more would be nice.

EK though is a mess that is true. Plus you know only being able to concentrate on one buff does them no favors.

[rooneg]

Honestly, I'm playing an EK now and I enjoy it. I'd enjoy it more if War Magic showed up at 3 instead of 7, as previously suggested, but as it stands it's a playable class. You just have to accept that your spells are mostly getting spent on Shield and Absorb Elements. It would also be nice if the selection spells available was broader (Evocation is pretty useless actually, and too many options fight for those few "any school" spells known). Right now you end up really wanting to dip into Wizard for some versatility. Still, it's a fun class to play if you set your expectations properly.

[mephnick]

You just have to accept that your spells are mostly getting spent on Shield and Absorb Elements. It would also be nice if the selection spells available was broader

I allow them to take spells from any school, I have no idea why this restriction was put in place on a 1/3rd caster.

Abjuration and Evocation are thematic I guess, but Transmutation and Illusion aren't? What swordsman wouldn't want Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge or Blur?

[MadBear]

Well, that would allow riposte every turn too. Not to mention a free shove (trip), fear (menacing), and SA for your rogue (commander's).

that is why I said "some" and not "all" abilities.

Because some are too powerful, while others would be fine if you let a BM do it all the time.

[bid]

that is why I said "some" and not "all" abilities.

Because some are too powerful, while others would be fine if you let a BM do it all the time.
Indeed. Now I'm wondering how many are weak enough.

[toapat]

Honestly, I'm playing an EK now and I enjoy it. I'd enjoy it more if War Magic showed up at 3 instead of 7, as previously suggested, but as it stands it's a playable class. You just have to accept that your spells are mostly getting spent on Shield and Absorb Elements. It would also be nice if the selection spells available was broader (Evocation is pretty useless actually, and too many options fight for those few "any school" spells known). Right now you end up really wanting to dip into Wizard for some versatility. Still, it's a fun class to play if you set your expectations properly.

1: EK isnt unplayable, i wasnt equating it to beastmaster ranger where you legitimately never get better. I said its a mess because your mechanics are delayed by way too many levels because of Weapon Bond, even though Disarm is not a universal combat action in 5E.

2: The spell list is way too restrictive for only getting at most 13 spells. Depending on interpretation either 2 of those have to be of Transmutation (eh, fair enough they probably were going to anyway) or Evocation, and att least the way i read it is you have to do that for every spell level, meaning 8 of your spells are locked to 2 schooles, one of which does not have its Ye Olde strengths. Ive definitely seen the spells known however said to be just 2 of the thematic schools before.

3: as it is right now the problem is a 13 BM Fighter/Wizard 7 gets alot of the gameplay of EK without alot of the baggage that EK needs

[rooneg]

1: EK isnt unplayable, i wasnt equating it to beastmaster ranger where you legitimately never get better. I said its a mess because your mechanics are delayed by way too many levels because of Weapon Bond, even though Disarm is not a universal combat action in 5E.

2: The spell list is way too restrictive for only getting at most 13 spells. Depending on interpretation either 2 of those have to be of Transmutation (eh, fair enough they probably were going to anyway) or Evocation, and att least the way i read it is you have to do that for every spell level, meaning 8 of your spells are locked to 2 schooles, one of which does not have its Ye Olde strengths. Ive definitely seen the spells known however said to be just 2 of the thematic schools before.

3: as it is right now the problem is a 13 BM Fighter/Wizard 7 gets alot of the gameplay of EK without alot of the baggage that EK needs

You mean Abjuration, not Transmutation, and it's not a matter of interpretation, the vast majority of the spells you get are required to be from those schools.

[Sigreid]

You mean Abjuration, not Transmutation, and it's not a matter of interpretation, the vast majority of the spells you get are required to be from those schools.

I personally wouldn't have a problem letting ek have a spell book and prepare wizard spells from any school. It's still a small number of spells per day and I think it would be fine.

[Fishyninja]

The real issue is the lack of growth in the actual maneuver pool over time. You picked the best 3 maneuvers at level 3. Then you learn the few you were on the fence about at 7. Then at 10 and 15 you get the crap you couldn't be bothered caring about at 3 and 7. There should be some more impressive maneuvers that unlock only at higher levels. Give me Whirlwind Attack, give me Impale, give me something spectacular! I get that the first few you're going to get are actually super strong, but after spending 10 levels constantly using Riposte and Precision Attack give me something stronger to do, even if it costs multiple dice, or can only be used once per short rest or whatever.
100% Agree with this, only been playing a Battlemaster for a few sessions now (still level 3) I've gone for Goading, Riposte and Disarm....I'd say the only other Maneuver that really catches my fancy is Trip attack, which can be picked up via the Shield Master Feat.

Again something like an imable, or a bleeding attack.
The closest thing to whirlwind is a sweeping attack.

Another could be (Like the Monk) a Stunning Strike (fluffed as a pommel strike),

[SharkForce]

100% Agree with this, only been playing a Battlemaster for a few sessions now (still level 3) I've gone for Goading, Riposte and Disarm....I'd say the only other Maneuver that really catches my fancy is Trip attack, which can be picked up via the Shield Master Feat.

Again something like an imable, or a bleeding attack.
The closest thing to whirlwind is a sweeping attack.

Another could be (Like the Monk) a Stunning Strike (fluffed as a pommel strike),

menacing can be pretty nice as well, you should probably consider that. frightened can be a rather interesting status effect :)

but yes, the basic point remains.

[toapat]

while i get how Battlemaster, Champion, and EK are balanced, i really do think that fighter even moreso than ranger needs a complete rework.

[Fishyninja]

menacing can be pretty nice as well, you should probably consider that. frightened can be a rather interesting status effect :)

but yes, the basic point remains.
In all honesty I picked Goading solely for the insults :P

I.e. "You couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions on the heel."

[thepsyker]

Personally, I wish they would just drop superiority dice completely and just rebalanced maneuvers to work as At Will abilities using a mix of action economy costs and skill/ability checks like with shove and/or, when necesary, level requirements like with Warlock invocations.

[JBPuffin]

Y'all have had some interesting experiences in this edition...

Our DM for 5e started out as a player in 4e; as a result, he's got this notion that 5e fights should feel like 4e ones - drag-out fights with guys sitting at multiple times CR-appropriate hit point totals. Add onto that the fact that we never rest during a session and what appears to be a distaste for spellcasters, and it gets to the point where the only thing that matters during is damage output and out-of-combat contribution (which thankfully, 5e does rather well for our purposes).

In this environment, our TWF Champion Fighter and "gun"-toting Hunter Ranger are monsters, pumping monsters so full of lead they ought to be treated as ore deposits. Our War Cleric and Dragon Sorcerer take the next spot, as neither of them are powerhouses of the same tier, but they provide a lot of utility and keep us alive the best they can. Then there's the Assassin Rogue and myself, an Arctic Druid...

Point is, in our group, the EK and Battlemaster would primarily be graded on their damage output - and with War Magic, Lightning Lure+melee attack can be utterly hilarious (had a fight in a spin-off where the Blade Pact warlock and EK traded Lightning Lures on a guy for a couple rounds - great mental image). Battlemaster would suffer compared to the others, true, but since we'd only ever have one fighter in the party (unlike our past cleric situation) they'd get along just fine.

So, to answer the question - this isn't a question that can be broadly homogenized. Some campaigns need to give their Battlemasters either more chances to recover or more dice, period; others might need to tone it down a little; and the rest can be satisfied with where things are and, if need be, find other ways to patch holes in party comp/equality.

[Nishant]

youre pretty much handling the problem wrong that way.

Eldrich Knight is a disaster. your spellcasting is taken from the wizard spell list as opposed to a specially designed spell list for the subclass, your lvl 3 classfeature that isnt spellcasting? Cannot come up in standard play because disarming attacks can only be performed by battlemaster fighters, and the other 4 features clearly come way later than they were designed for because of an ability which the DM is supposed to never have, and this ignores that Action Surge literally doesnt work with EK

Uh... Any creature with basic anatomy can disarm you. In fact, intelligent creatures should try if they have military backgrounds and think they would benefit from the risk (hobgoblins for example.) What they do is forfeit one of their attacks, as they would for a trip, a grapple, or a shove. Whether enemies do or don't do that is up to you or your Dm. Battlemasters just don't forfeit their attack to do the maneuver.

Honestly, in a world where you're getting 2 short rests a day the number of dice the battlemaster gets isn't a huge deal. Would it be nice if it was higher? Sure. Is it critical? No.


The real issue is the lack of growth in the actual maneuver pool over time. You picked the best 3 maneuvers at level 3. Then you learn the few you were on the fence about at 7. Then at 10 and 15 you get the crap you couldn't be bothered caring about at 3 and 7. There should be some more impressive maneuvers that unlock only at higher levels. Give me Whirlwind Attack, give me Impale, give me something spectacular! I get that the first few you're going to get are actually super strong, but after spending 10 levels constantly using Riposte and Precision Attack give me something stronger to do, even if it costs multiple dice, or can only be used once per short rest or whatever.

These would be fantastic. And if someone wanted to homebrew these, I'd be happy to playtest them myself.

[toapat]

Uh... Any creature with basic anatomy can disarm you.

read Pages 192-195 of the PHB. Grapple and shove are the only defined combat maneuvers for general combat.

[Desamir]

read Pages 192-195 of the PHB. Grapple and shove are the only defined combat maneuvers for general combat.

Disarm is listed as an optional action on DMG pg. 271, however.

[Vogonjeltz]

it really isn't the same at all.

there's a world of difference between symbol that costs 1000 gold and takes an extended period of time to cast, and symbol that costs zero gold and can be cast in a single action (and as a result of being cast in a single action, provides an incredible amount of flexibility in effect and targeted saving throw whereas symbol is normally going to be set in place long before it triggers and you won't get to decide which version you want on the fly).

likewise, there's a world of difference between using a glyph of warding to instantly sustain any level 8 or lower spell without concentration requirements at a moment's notice (albeit requiring another slot).

there's a world of difference between being able to cast planar binding in the middle of a fight on an extraplanar being you would be normally fighting to cause them to switch sides immediately (free of charge, again unlike the base spell), and only being able to use it on extraplanar beings that you have somehow trapped, and only realistically being able to use it outside of a fight.

wish takes spells that are designed with certain limitations in place and throws those limitations away. but, if you prefer other level 9 spells, it isn't like there aren't any fairly ridiculous options to choose from there either. true polymoprh to instantly create any CR 9 or lower creature that will take orders for the next hour, and possibly continue to serve beyond, well, that certainly isn't nothing.

regardless, it still doesn't get around the main point... at a time when other classes are reshaping the world, the fighter is getting a second use of a level 2 ability and a 4th attack per round. those are good abilities, don't get me wrong, but by this time, you're supposed to be the kind of hero that can change the world. "slightly better than hiring a couple of level 5 fighter hirelings" is not the benchmark we should be using when it comes to level 20 abilities.

Touche, the faster casting and removal of expensive components are worthy upgrades to give tactical flex to some spells that are otherwise lacking it. That being said, many longer casting time spells don't need to be cast in combat, they can be pre-cast and then be used in combat; Planar Binding for example lasts long enough that one could easily have a bound servant for a year.

Relevant question occurs: If using wish to cast the spell, is it considered cast using a 9th level slot? (My answer: Yes, as that is the only level of slot expended)

In which case wish is functionally a 1/day reduce casting time to 1 action and cast without requiring material components. I mean...it's good enough I suppose, I just don't consider it as good as Shapechange, or Prismatic Wall...or Time Stop (drool). And it's strictly worse than Divine Intervention which can literally do anything, but once a week (I suppose that balances out). Remember, if you've done 6 impossible things today, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways's? The Restaurant at the End of the Universe!

ahem.

Comparative value of the 4th attack to wish is also dependent on how often you can use each: Wish, 1/day vs 4th attack...every 6 seconds. Theoretically up to 14,400 times per day, plus action surges. Also, action surge and indomitable are the two abilities given at 17th level, which are pretty amazing in their own right. One breaks action economy, the other provides advantage on saves (and incidentally negates any one-time negative modifiers that apply the first time, such as Portent).

I agree wish is good...but I do think it gets rated a little too well for what it typically does.


Still, going from 4 to 6 "slots" growing from level d8 to level d12 (+2 average) is pretty weak. EKs manage to get fireball and do 8d6 extra damage to a bunch of targets. Spamming sword burst for 3d6 on 3 targets is also better than 2 attacks.

Fireball takes an action, so it's not extra, it's in place of their attack routine. Which, by 13th level includes 3 attacks (i.e. 6d6+15; or 8 more damage than a fireball does to a single target).

Maneuvers are in addition to the attack routine, and in some cases vastly improve further attacks (trip for example gives advantage to all the subsequent attacks, almost doubling crit rate for a pure BM).


youre pretty much handling the problem wrong that way.

Champion fighter gains no complexity over its lifespan and doesnt get the kind of action economy Battlemaster does. It sucks because it has nothing to do and isnt even as good as barbarian at that nothing.

Eldrich Knight is a disaster. your spellcasting is taken from the wizard spell list as opposed to a specially designed spell list for the subclass, your lvl 3 classfeature that isnt spellcasting? Cannot come up in standard play because disarming attacks can only be performed by battlemaster fighters, and the other 4 features clearly come way later than they were designed for because of an ability which the DM is supposed to never have, and this ignores that Action Surge literally doesnt work with EK

Champions gain natural ability, it's intentional that their abilities aren't on a timer. Also, the improved crit puts their sustained damage at a higher number than a Barbarians. Anyone can disarm, it's an opposed check, they just don't get to deal damage while doing it.


I'd say the only other Maneuver that really catches my fancy is Trip attack, which can be picked up via the Shield Master Feat.

Except: You have to use a shield, it's a shove and not a save (which has a better chance of success), it doesn't deal damage, it eats your bonus action, and it's a Feat opportunity cost.

That's 5 major disadvantages over the maneuver for one major advantage (being able to do it unlimited times between rests).


1: EK isnt unplayable, i wasnt equating it to beastmaster ranger where you legitimately never get better. I said its a mess because your mechanics are delayed by way too many levels because of Weapon Bond, even though Disarm is not a universal combat action in 5E.

BM improves with proficiency bonus...not to mention the archetype abilities, of course. Weapon Bond is a ribbon, and Disarming is a universal combat activity, much as any improvised action is, i.e. Grapple, and Shove.

[bid]

Fireball takes an action, so it's not extra, it's in place of their attack routine. Which, by 13th level includes 3 attacks (i.e. 6d6+15; or 8 more damage than a fireball does to a single target).

Maneuvers are in addition to the attack routine, and in some cases vastly improve further attacks (trip for example gives advantage to all the subsequent attacks, almost doubling crit rate for a pure BM).
Indeed, we should subtract those 3 attacks to fireball damage.

Still, the trip attack is worth exploring.
BM 13 hits around 65% and has DC18 or 75% success.
- maul damage = 2d6+4/3+5 * .65 + 2d6*.05 = 9 damage
- with advantage = 2d6+4/3+5 * .88 + 2d6*.09 = 12.4 damage
Since we'd only use trip on the first attack if it hits, we'll always have 2 attacks with advantage. This adds 4.5 + 2 * 3.4 * .75 = 9.6 damage. Less than riposte which is 12.8 or around.
OTOH, another party member can take advantage of the prone target. But that leaves trip in the same range as riposte or commander's strike.


Now, fireball would do 14 on save for something close to 24 damage per target (DC16 ~ 33% save).
- 2 targets = 48 - 27 ~ 20 extra damage
- 3 targets = 72 - 27 ~ 45 extra damage
- 4 targets = 96 - 27 ~ 70 extra damage
Close to +15 per target in a 20' radius. 3 fireballs a day would hit 12-15 targets (?) for an extra ~ 150 damage. Applying sweeping damage to 3 extra targets in 5' range, over 10 SD per day, would also yield ~ 150 damage. Will that BM have 4 enemies around him often enough? I think so.


tl;dr - applying sweeping damage to all extra targets makes BM just as good as EK with fireball.

[djreynolds]

Example: at level 10 a Battle Master gets 4 superiority dice per rest and 2 attacks a round, meaning the dice could easily be used up in the first encounter after the rest. Assuming 2 short rests a day, that's just 12 manoeuvres for the whole day, and they're weak enough that they only replace one attack. In contrast, any full caster gets 15 (plus Arcane Recovery or Natural Recovery or whatever) cool tricks that are so powerful they take a whole turn to use.

I often will use them and action surge together... and second wind. They go so fast.

I could be cool if they were more like the open-hand monks feature.

But just remember you can always use an attack to trip someone up.

[Cybren]

while i get how Battlemaster, Champion, and EK are balanced, i really do think that fighter even moreso than ranger needs a complete rework.
Everyone is allowed to think things that are incorrect

[djreynolds]

You have to decide how you are going to make a battle master and what other class to multiclass with.

Am I using a heavy weapon, pole arm, ranger, TWF or S&B? This will help you pick maneuvers that can help you.

What are you using them for? To help make it easier to land GWM/SS? To support the party? To help snag reaction attacks?

Now are you melee and stuck in plate? It limits multiclass choices for you, and you should look to add class features to your chassis

We've all seen just how powerful advantage is, well reckless attack is right there for a 2 level dip if you want to run around in plate, or 3 levels if you don't mind wearing half-plate for rage

If TWF and S&B work well grabbing a level of rogue and barbarian, but so does GWM

Cunning action is especially nice on an archer, you got the dex and now expertise in stealth and reliable means to use that BA to hide and then gain advantage... making SS easier to land, rolling twice is nice and then tossing in precision if those rolls fail or using trip, disarm, or menace to help the party out

For me it is about getting advantage and use of precision and GWM/SS.

Remember reckless attack is a choice, but coupled with action surge and GWM now you can toss those maneuvers on top possible critical hit, or if you are out you have an option that will give you advantage.

[toapat]

Everyone is allowed to think things that are incorrect

Champion Fighter is the worst of the 3 at actually fighting, except when you start exceeding 6 encounters a day and skipping Lunch + Dinner. they even lose out ground later on because a barbarain's brutal critical becomes an x4 crit multiplier while potentially having natural advantage on attacks and champion's crit range going to 18-20.

Eldritch Knight runs off a spellcasting list not designed for Eldritch Knighting, and has a completely defective lvl 3 class feature. yes theres Suggestions for the DM to how to make disarm, they still dont count as official disarm rules like how grapple and shove have such as general maneuvers. Id rather have a real lvl 18 feature and not the lvl 3 weapon bond which i would expect on a Kensai Monk

Battlemaster is at its strongest it will ever be at lvl 3 and just loses effectiveness over the following 17 levels because their main classfeature is all frontloaded because of not having minimum level statistic.

[LordVonDerp]

Champions gain natural ability, it's intentional that their abilities aren't on a timer.

While I'll agree that's the intention, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.




Also, the improved crit puts their sustained damage at a higher number than a Barbarians.

Umm...what? No, it doesn't.

[Socratov]

While I'll agree that's the intention, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.



Umm...what? No, it doesn't.

Correct, because the difference between a champion's increased crit feature and a barbarians reckless attacks in getting crits is only slight. The fact that a barbarian gains a lot more dice when critting he is the better crit-fisher.

[toapat]

Correct, because the difference between a champion's increased crit feature and a barbarians reckless attacks in getting crits is only slight. The fact that a barbarian gains a lot more dice when critting he is the better crit-fisher.

someone hasnt played DDO enough.

Critical threat range and critical multiplier are the same intrinsic value on their own, its only when combined that they truly shine. the Rapier and the Heavy pick have identical DPR because of that.

Edit: also while Champion Fighter gets +2 crit range, Barbarian gets a +3 crit multiplier

[Fishyninja]

Except: You have to use a shield, it's a shove and not a save (which has a better chance of success), it doesn't deal damage, it eats your bonus action, and it's a Feat opportunity cost.

That's 5 major disadvantages over the maneuver for one major advantage (being able to do it unlimited times between rests)

All good points. I'd argue having a shield is not a disadvantage at all.
Yes it is a check as opposed to save, I'd rate either as equal.
I concede it not doing extra damage is a disadvantage and yes it does eat up a bonus action.

However there are other advantages that it gives such as adding the shields AC to a dex Saving throw (which is kinda comparible to Evasive Footwork) and also allowing you to take 0 damage from a succsessful saving throw.

Yes it seems like the feat is a little much to replace one maneuver but to me at the cost of 1 feat you are gaining 2 plus added benefits at the cost of an extra 1d8 damage.

[Socratov]

someone hasnt played DDO enough.

Critical threat range and critical multiplier are the same intrinsic value on their own, its only when combined that they truly shine. the Rapier and the Heavy pick have identical DPR because of that.

Edit: also while Champion Fighter gets +2 crit range, Barbarian gets a +3 crit multiplier

and you underestimate the value of Reckless attacks: it by itself raises the barbarian's chance to hit from 5% (nat20 on a d20) to 9.75% (a nat20 on any of 2 d20's). That is at lvl 2 which almost equals the champions 1st bump in crit range. The fact that the champ goes on for another bump (18-20) but that the barb gets to bump his die 3 times makes for the difference. For the rest I will gladly link my post again where I calculate the difference between fighter and barbarian at lvl 11... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21491869&postcount=36)

Oh, and indeed I haven't played DDO at all. Wether that is enough or not is a matter of personal preference. :smallamused:

[toapat]

and you underestimate the value of Reckless attacks: it by itself raises the barbarian's chance to hit from 5% (nat20 on a d20) to 9.75% (a nat20 on any of 2 d20's). That is at lvl 2 which almost equals the champions 1st bump in crit range. The fact that the champ goes on for another bump (18-20) but that the barb gets to bump his die 3 times makes for the difference. For the rest I will gladly link my post again where I calculate the difference between fighter and barbarian at lvl 11... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21491869&postcount=36)

Oh, and indeed I haven't played DDO at all. Wether that is enough or not is a matter of personal preference. :smallamused:

Champion Fighter's strongest class feature exists to nerf the barbarian because it splits extra Critical strike range from extra critical damage, and while you cant reach critical strike range of 11-20 in DnD like you can in DDO, Champion 3//Barbarian 9 has the same critical strike power as a lvl 17 barbarian if not equivalent sustained damage because they are nearly half the barbarian level.

and thats without reckless attack which Champion gets no equivalent to.

[Socratov]

Champion Fighter's strongest class feature exists to nerf the barbarian because it splits extra Critical strike range from extra critical damage, and while you cant reach critical strike range of 11-20 in DnD like you can in DDO, Champion 3//Barbarian 9 has the same critical strike power as a lvl 17 barbarian if not equivalent sustained damage because they are nearly half the barbarian level.

and thats without reckless attack which Champion gets no equivalent to.

in terms if crits and dpr reckless attacks IS equivalent to the Champion's increased threat range. it's just that reckless attacks is actually better. And while having 15% chance to crit later on is just downright fantastic. Though for me the reason to take Champion as a dip for barbarian is the fighting style (to help you be a better blender), action surge (for when 1 turn of being a blender is not enough) and in early lvls healing surge (for remaining a blender for longer).

[mgshamster]

I'm playing a half-orc frenzy barbarian right now. Going to be level 4 soon.

Should I take level for for a feat or ASI (and if so, which?), or dip into fighter and aim for champion?

I eventually want to dip to champion.

[gfishfunk]

I'm playing a half-orc frenzy barbarian right now. Going to be level 4 soon.

Should I take level for for a feat or ASI (and if so, which?), or dip into fighter and aim for champion?

I eventually want to dip to champion.

Stay with Barbarian through 5 for Extra Attack. Take ASI for +Str (imo). You might consider taking Great Weapons Master as a feat instead. The key is to use that feat with Reckless Attack to make it stick and get tons of damage.

[bid]

I eventually want to dip to champion.
Don't. The extra crit is a trap.

Not before barbarian 13 and your 2nd brutal dice for sure.

[Vogonjeltz]

Now, fireball would do 14 on save for something close to 24 damage per target (DC16 ~ 33% save).
- 2 targets = 48 - 27 ~ 20 extra damage
- 3 targets = 72 - 27 ~ 45 extra damage
- 4 targets = 96 - 27 ~ 70 extra damage
Close to +15 per target in a 20' radius. 3 fireballs a day would hit 12-15 targets (?) for an extra ~ 150 damage. Applying sweeping damage to 3 extra targets in 5' range, over 10 SD per day, would also yield ~ 150 damage. Will that BM have 4 enemies around him often enough? I think so.

I find questionable the premise that we're going to get fights against 12-15 enemies 3+ times per day. Not to mention the improbability of being able to selecting target just the enemies in the radius. With that many enemies it's far more likely that there will be friendly fire.


Umm...what? No, it doesn't.

Maths @20:

Starting stats, array: 15,14,13,12,10,8
Fighter has: 7 ASI, Extra Attack (3), Fighting Style, Action Surge, Superior Critical (18-20)
Barbarian has: 5 ASI, Rage, Extra Attack, Brutal Critical (+3 crit damage dice), Primal Champion (+4 str), Reckless Attack (Advantage)

Half-Orc provides the optimal combat race because of the strength increase and the extra damage die on a crit.

Fighter does: +11 to hit, re-roll 1s/2s, +5 damage / +6 to hit +15 damage, 4 attacks + possible bonus action attack

Barbarian does +13 to hit (advantage), +11 damage (Raging), 2 attacks

Fighter:
GWM inactive: 49.451666575/round (no action surge use)
w/GWM active: 58.445834025

Barbarian: 1d12 + 11 / 5d12 + 11
w/out reckless: 34.1/round
w/reckless: 39.72
w/GWM w/out reckless: 40.2675
w/GWM w/reckless: 55.9324959375

If the Champion gets advantage (let's say, because the opponent gets knocked down, or a status effect happens) this becomes more lopsided in their favor. On the other hand, the Barbarian would deal more damage against a target who has been Paralyzed because their criticals are significantly better than the Fighters.

So, in some situations the Barbarian would deal a drastic increase in damage, but natively they're about 3 damage per attack round below that of the Fighter. The additional crit chance, the re-rolls on 1s and 2s, and the 2 extra attacks are just that good. We didn't even exploit Savage Attacker, which the Fighter can plausibly pick up, while the Barbarian is looking at a serious opportunity cost as it would leave them only a single ASI for boosting stats.

This also doesn't address the defensive comparison, in which the Barbarian assumes significant risks from Reckless Attack.


All good points. I'd argue having a shield is not a disadvantage at all.
Yes it is a check as opposed to save, I'd rate either as equal.
I concede it not doing extra damage is a disadvantage and yes it does eat up a bonus action.

However there are other advantages that it gives such as adding the shields AC to a dex Saving throw (which is kinda comparible to Evasive Footwork) and also allowing you to take 0 damage from a succsessful saving throw.

Yes it seems like the feat is a little much to replace one maneuver but to me at the cost of 1 feat you are gaining 2 plus added benefits at the cost of an extra 1d8 damage.

Well, in the sense that you are locked out of two-handed weaponry, or dual-wielding, it's a disadvantage.

Checks are typically superior for the target than saves, both add ability scores but far fewer enemies have proficiency in saves than have proficiency in relevant skills, further, shoves allow the subject to self-select their best stat from two (str or dex) whereas Trip forces the enemy to use str (which they might be the weaker one).

It's very case dependent, but it's usually better to force a save than the force a contest.

I agree, the other benefits are good. I was focusing solely on the offensive ability provided.

[bid]

I find questionable the premise that we're going to get fights against 12-15 enemies 3+ times per day. Not to mention the improbability of being able to selecting target just the enemies in the radius. With that many enemies it's far more likely that there will be friendly fire.
That's 12-15 over 3 fireballs, not each.

We considered BM would get 4 targets around him 10 times a day. I'm sure you'll agree the EK should manage better 3 times a day.

[bid]

Fighter:
GWM inactive: 49.451666575/round (no action surge use)
w/GWM active: 58.445834025

This is what, AC13?
It looks like 90% hit, 65% with GWM.


I'm not surprised. HO champion has 4 more crit dice (2 on 18, 2 on 19) while HO barbarian also has 4, but on 20.

[djreynolds]

Fighter and barbarian are both great in melee.

Reckless attack is fantastic but it has its draw backs, you can get surrounded and hurt badly.

The champion is about consistency, you really have to play one. IMO, archers and S&B make the best champion.

I prefer GWM/PAM with battlemaster, they go well together, but so does archer and SS

Point is both classes multiclass very well together, you have to decide what you want out of your build.

Who else is in the party? How do you fit in? What is your role?

[Tanarii]

Lot of bad info about EKs floating around in this thread. For starters, Evocation spells are an awesome addition for them. It gives them AoEs option that they didn't have before, as well as ranged attack options for Str-based EKs. For seconders, their primary bread-and-butter is cantrips, once they get War Magic and a cantrip/attack rotation they should use it almost every round, except for the few edge-case situations that make Extra Attack better.

EKs are incredibly well designed. Unlike BMs, who absolutely should have some of the maneuvers currently available immediately gated off until higher levels. They're not just front-loaded on dice and maneuvers, they're over-loaded with far too good maneuvers right off the bat.

[toapat]

Don't. The extra crit is a trap.

Not before barbarian 13 and your 2nd brutal dice for sure.

you only need 9 levels of barbarian for Brutal Critical 1 at which point Expanded threat range is higher value. as a Horc going Champion/Barbarian you should actually take your first 3 levels as fighter both for possibly ignoring their dex/con armor and you already have brutal critical 1. Diehard does not compete with Action Surge, Healing surge, and improved critical

[bid]

you only need 9 levels of barbarian for Brutal Critical 1 at which point Expanded threat range is higher value. as a Horc going Champion/Barbarian you should actually take your first 3 levels as fighter both for possibly ignoring their dex/con armor and you already have brutal critical 1.
Barbarian have medium armor, no gain there.

And, look here...
HO barb 9 + GWM = 1d12+17 * .64 + 3d12 * .09 = 16.9
HO champ 3 / barb 6 + GWM = 1d12+5/6+15 * .58 + 2d12+10/6 * .19 = 15.7
HO champ 3 / barb 6 = 1d12+5/6+6 * .88 + 2d12+10/6 * .19 = 14.5

HO barb 12 + GWM = 1d12+18 * .64 + 3d12 * .09 = 17.4
HO champ 3 / barb 9 + GWM = 1d12+5/6+17 * .58 + 3d12+15/6 * .19 = 18.2

You really want your GWM and extra attack asap, waiting for level 7-8 is a bad idea. There's no reason to gimp your DPR.

[Fishyninja]

Well, in the sense that you are locked out of two-handed weaponry, or dual-wielding, it's a disadvantage.

Checks are typically superior for the target than saves, both add ability scores but far fewer enemies have proficiency in saves than have proficiency in relevant skills, further, shoves allow the subject to self-select their best stat from two (str or dex) whereas Trip forces the enemy to use str (which they might be the weaker one).

It's very case dependent, but it's usually better to force a save than the force a contest.

I agree, the other benefits are good. I was focusing solely on the offensive ability provided.

Fair enough, I am a little biased as my current Battlemaster is a sword and board character. If I came off as a little defensive, that was not my intention. My apologies.

[Zalabim]

You could start the BM out with 3 d6 superiority dice and still scale up to 6 d12s if you want a more noticeable feeling of progression too.

I think it was a good suggestion to add a recharge option of forgoing one attack to recover one die, but it'd have to be worded to prevent refilling all your dice when you aren't in combat anyway. My rough draft is "By probing an enemy's defenses, you gain insight you can use in battle. Once on each of your turns, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you may regain one superiority die instead of causing the attack's normal effects. The creature suffers no damage or other effect from the attack."


Probably the most simple fix for the EK that I've seen in play is to give War Magic at 3, Eldritch Strike at 7, Arcane Charge at 10, and Improved War Magic at 15.

We went to level 9 so the EK got War Magic @ 3 and Eldritch Strike @7.

This allowed, right out of the gate, for a EK to feel like a single cohesive class instead of two classes smooshed together.

More like the Paladin than the PHB BM Ranger.
I know you're going for feel here, but wouldn't giving them a free "attack with a greatsword as a bonus action" at level 3, for example, be ridiculously out of line? That's from using a SCAG cantrip at level 3. Then they'd still have the spell slots on top of that.

[toapat]

I know you're going for feel here, but wouldn't giving them a free "attack with a greatsword as a bonus action" at level 3, for example, be ridiculously out of line? That's from using a SCAG cantrip at level 3. Then they'd still have the spell slots on top of that.

it does put them ahead of basically everyone for a level because of the double proficiency to damage, but it really only matches with a rogue for that level, and at lvl 3 a paladin can as Oath of Vengance hit a guy with a single attack for 2d6+2d8+1d6 + Strength

[bid]

it does put them ahead of basically everyone for a level because of the double proficiency to damage, but it really only matches with a rogue for that level, and at lvl 3 a paladin can as Oath of Vengance hit a guy with a single attack for 2d6+2d8+1d6 + Strength
Yes, because 4d6+6 at will is no better than 2d6+2d8+1d6+3 using two of your 3 slots.

[toapat]

Yes, because 4d6+6 at will is no better than 2d6+2d8+1d6+3 using two of your 3 slots.

Rogue at lvl 3 gets their second sneak attack dice and can also get 4d6+6 round.

[bid]

Rogue at lvl 3 gets their second sneak attack dice and can also get 4d6+6 round.
Yeah, that one mostly works since it's easy to fulfill SA restrictions.

[toapat]

Yeah, that one mostly works since it's easy to fulfill SA restrictions.

i think a better counterpoint is that while giving War Magic at lvl 3 is overpowered, its only overpowered for exactly that level, as at lvl 4 barbarian gets GWM and Arcane trickster rogue can go pick up Magic Initiate for Hunter's mark or Hex and then get that spell's crazy damage on top of its other benefits.

[BurgerBeast]

Battle master gets enough dice. It's all in how you use them, and anyone who feels like they're light on dice: remember you're already better than champions.

Instead of trying to make the class fit your vision, adjust your vision to the class. The battle master mostly just attacks, but once in a while, he is able to place a maneuver in the mix to gain an edge.

Also, don't forget that at level 15, you are guaranteed to have one every round. (edit: once per encounter. Duh. Thanks to those who pointed out this mistake.)

It's my personal opinion that keeping it as it is promotes more creative play than increasing it would, because you'd mostly be using them for damage.

I've played a dwarven GWF battle master up to level 17, and I never felt that I lacked for superiority dice. I would generally just attack using -5/+10, but if I rolled low I would use precision attack. After the first miss I would consider switching off the -5/+10. If I landed a hit without needing to use precision attack, I could use trip attack if appropriate, and of course the earlier the happened, the more appropriate it was, particularly if the enemy was a bag of hit points and I could use action surge to make 2-5 more attacks, all with advantage. (I had a cleric who often kept bless up and a bard who often provided bardic inspiration, so GWF was often used and precision attack was often not required.)

But none of this was as good as simply limiting myself to attacks and saving superiority dice to riposte. Basically an extra attack every 1-2 rounds with high potential damage. Also, using them on every crit where possible.

[bid]

i think a better counterpoint is that while giving War Magic at lvl 3 is overpowered, its only overpowered for exactly that level, as at lvl 4 barbarian gets GWM and Arcane trickster rogue can go pick up Magic Initiate for Hunter's mark or Hex and then get that spell's crazy damage on top of its other benefits.
What's to stop EK from getting GWM too?
Or magic initiate for hex? (you can't get HM from MI, at all)

[bid]

Also, don't forget that at level 15, you are guaranteed to have one every round.
You prolly meant once per initiative roll.

[Nishant]

Battle master gets enough dice. It's all in how you use them, and anyone who feels like they're light on dice: remember you're already better than champions.

Instead of trying to make the class fit your vision, adjust your vision to the class. The battle master mostly just attacks, but once in a while, he is able to place a maneuver in the mix to gain an edge.

Also, don't forget that at level 15, you are guaranteed to have one every round.


And that's where you're wrong. At 15, they have one every /encounter./ If you had a die every round, then no one would be saying they need more, because at 15, you could use trip attack, or disarm, or riposte, whatever every single turn, and you just can't.

[BurgerBeast]

You prolly meant once per initiative roll.

Yes, sorry. Once per combat.

Edit:
And that's where you're wrong. At 15, they have one every /encounter./ If you had a die every round, then no one would be saying they need more, because at 15, you could use trip attack, or disarm, or riposte, whatever every single turn, and you just can't.

Since we're nit picking, no it wouldn't mean this. It would once every round, not turn. ;)

[Nishant]

Yes, sorry. Once per combat.

Edit:

Since we're nit picking, no it wouldn't mean this. It would once every round, not turn. ;)

well played, good sir.

[Zorku]

Now, fireball would do 14 on save for something close to 24 damage per target (DC16 ~ 33% save).
- 2 targets = 48 - 27 ~ 20 extra damage
- 3 targets = 72 - 27 ~ 45 extra damage
- 4 targets = 96 - 27 ~ 70 extra damage
Close to +15 per target in a 20' radius. 3 fireballs a day would hit 12-15 targets (?) for an extra ~ 150 damage. Applying sweeping damage to 3 extra targets in 5' range, over 10 SD per day, would also yield ~ 150 damage. Will that BM have 4 enemies around him often enough? I think so.


tl;dr - applying sweeping damage to all extra targets makes BM just as good as EK with fireball.
The DMG balances AoE as if it's just doing 2x damage. They probably expect more targets to be in an AoE but things like friendly fire and the existence of AoE healing mean that you can effectively treat it like you've hit 2 targets.

This doesn't change your conclusion, but it does dial us in on which possibility to be looking at.